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The first paradox I learnt about when viewing the article is the grandfather paradox. Surely the first paradox to be explained should be the predestination paradox? -- 82.152.248.87 ( talk) 14:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't think so. If you read an article about the son of a famous singer, the article will first explain who the famous singer is, and then go into detail about the son. The Grandfather paradox is just more well-known, so it's a good place to start the subject.-- Mithcoriel ( talk) 13:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
If a man discover that he will die (in the future!!!) from heart attack and then (in the present!!) travel to the past and say to himself to get fit, and then he overexerts himself, killing herself of a heart attack, how he will travel to the past now?? (since he is doing exercises, because he think the if he do the exercises he will not die from heart attack) And if he not traveled in time, how did he suffered a heart attack?? [since he discovered that he will suffer a heart attack on the future (after the traveling back in time)] 201.58.117.54
The way I understood it: Let's say his friend, after seeing him die of a heart attack, travels to the past and tells him: "Watch out, you'll die of a heart attack!" He exercises to prevent this, dies of a heart attack, and then his friend travels back in time to warn him. The text doesn't clearly state it went like this, but I'm guessing it must have been something along those lines. -- Mithcoriel ( talk) 12:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
It may appear as such, but the "Predestination paradox" is not , in physics, really a paradox at all. Philosophically, it contradicts the idea of free will, but even this may be apparent, in as much as it is simply a case of free will not allow you to break the laws of the universe (for example, if I step off a cliff, I'd rather not fall, but no matter how much I will myself to stay in the air, the basic laws of physics state that I have to fall) 128.232.250.254 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In a multiverse (like the reality of quantum mechanics) this is actualy not a paradox. Protons can only exist because they are in balance with their own virtual presence, in other words without their virtual counterpart they could not exist. That results in about 90% of their mass that indeed doesnt exist, dough virtualy it does (but not here). The problem and solution is that quantum world doesnt respect our known world, things can be at the same places, or be linked on an informational level, over great distance. Quantum world can be interpretended as a many to many universes solution (at a micro scale, but also bigger scales).
Its just that we cant observe an alternate world, in which our reality doesnt match.
we only can observe the micro scale where we indeed see it does overlap.
As to the quantum world there are no problem to flip between realities/virtualities (what happened inside protons), and so if there are many realities (where the othere 90% of the mass of a proton sits) then there is a many world reality and in such world this paradox could simply happen, a particle slipping to another reality create havoc there.. and that reality ends (well ends its just out of our evenhorizon, another reality.
I realize this attribution looks to weird, but read about the double split experiment that might be a good starter point to learn about quantum mechanics. As in a multiverse it isnt a problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.115.69 ( talk) 00:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree that this is not a paradox. A paradox is when your assumptions seem reasonable but they lead to a logical contradiction. For example, the twin paradox purports to show that assuming special relativity leads to each twin being older than the other. Paradoxes can be resolved by showing that the assumptions are not correctly stated. In the twin paradox, the resolution is that one twin changed reference frames and the other didn't, and this breaks the symmetry and shows that both twins agree that only one is older.
But there is no paradox in the "predestination" case, because there is no logical contradiction.
In addition, "predestination" has nothing to do with this so-called paradox. Predestination is about whether you can or cannot choose what you will do. Just because you do choose something, the outcome of which is known in advance, does not mean that you could not have chosen otherwise. For example, I drop a stone. At the moment of dropping it I know that it will hit the ground, but to say that it is "predestined" to hit the ground means that I had no choice in whether to drop it. Likewise, if I know that in the future I will perform some action it does not mean that I do not have the freedom to choose whether I perform it. It's the difference between "did happen" and "cannot have have happened any other way". Time travel discussions are often confused by this distinction. Shrikeangel ( talk) 01:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
You're referring specifically to a physical paradox, hence the physics reference. Saying that this is a philosophical paradox doesn't imply that it is a physical one, and so you're both correct, albeit using semantics that aren't precise enough to convey it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.182.153.50 ( talk) 20:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
'there is no paradox in the "predestination" case, because there is no logical contradiction': If you kindly read the article about paradox, you'll note that "logical contradiction" is not always required, "defies intuition" is another way of acquiring paradoxness. Aside from that, if it is called a paradox by the literature, then that's what we state. If other WP:RS disagree, we report that, too. Our own opinions and judgments are unimportant. Paradoctor ( talk) 20:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I've heard the following paradox somewhere, but I don't know the name of it or who invented it.
So, in which category should this paradox be included?
-- Maio 07:06, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
This isn't time machine related but time traveling.
In an episode of Andromeda, the ship is somehow sent back into time where they encounter an enemy fleet. I haven't watched the show for ages so I forget the name of the race. But they find thousands of enemy ships, but historical records indicate there were only a few dozen ships that were destroyed by a human fleet. The captain decides to interfere and uses some bomb which devastates nearly the entire enemy fleet. The guy with the spikes in his hand speaks to the captain in a seperate room. He tells him about a certain folklore story. There were thousands of ships and victory was guarenteed. But then an angel of death appeared and destroyed most of the fleet. He says something similar to this effect "I have met that angel of death".
Unless I'm not very much mistaken the 999 years Braxton referenced was about the "Future's End" double episode and had not happened before the events of the episode "EPIC". As such I removed the last sentence of that paragraph. -_- 203.79.112.66 13:18, 32 Jul 2096 (not UTC)
I wonder if the Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan scenario ("...the antique eyeglasses Captain Kirk receives from Doctor McCoy in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which Kirk leaves in the 20th Century in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home so it can be eventually bought by McCoy") might be complicated by the fact that the glasses are intact when McCoy gives them to Kirk in the 23rd century, but one of the lenses is cracked when Kirk later pawns them in the 20th century. Assuming they're the same glasses, then they must be repaired sometime before McCoy buys them for Kirk, and with each repetition of this loop they age by another 300 years. Most of the other examples given involve the origins of information or genetic code (i.e. people), both of which can be reproduced easily. -- Arteitle 05:45, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I fail not to see how Back to the Future falls in this category, since the 1985 Marty returns to is definately not the 1985 he left. -_- ckape ( talk) 07:22, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)
I agree (<--- NOT), Back to the Future implies the opposite to what u said. This paradox require the space Traveler not to be the original one to inspire the paradox. But in the beginning of the movie they are in an altered time line in which Marty traveled back to 1789 (as seen by the unbroken ledge), and Goldie Wilson did run with Marty's suggestion, and Johnny B Good was written with Marty's help. there is no relation with this paradox and BTTF. <-- lie 68.109.92.47 23:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
In some respects, predestination paradox and self-fulfilling prophecy can just be a case of to-MAY-to and to-MAH-to. From the perspective of a paradox, receiving information about an event from the future that causes a series of events that culminate in the said event if and only if the information was sent back in time in the first place is a predestination paradox. DonQuixote 17:51, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The following isn't really a paradox since the future event doesn't cause itself. It's just something that happens of its own accord.
DonQuixote 05:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This hardly qualifies as a predestination paradox, because it is constantly made clear that the past can be changed, therefore the movies are set in a mutable, not fixed timeline. Therefore, the timeline in which Skynet is built by Cyberdyne using parts of the first Terminator follows a timeline in which Skynet is built by some other company, later, and Judgment Day therefore occurs later than 1997. This company presumably builds Skynet in the timeline shown in T3, when Cyberdyne is destroyed.
The assumption that the movies take place in altered timelines, and the original timeline is never shown, not only follows the plot more accurately (allowing the past to change), but also resolves most, if not all, predestination paradoxes. For example, John Connor was Kyle Reese's son in the T1 timeline and all the subsequent timelines, but he was born from a different father in the original timeline where Reese had yet to be sent into the past.
The message is said to be memorized, so John must forcefully learn it and make sure it reaches the future unchanged. I believe this is done to make sure the message is delivered the same way as it was in the original timeline. To clarify: in the original timeline, John creates the message (here we have its necessary original source) and passes it to Reese, who alters the past by his very presence (let alone replacing John's original father with himself), and if John does not memorize the message the way it was, the message he creates himself may be different from the one he created in the original timeline, which would result in a different Reese arriving into the past (as long as Reese remembers a different message), a different past, a different future etc. - an incredibly dangerous loop that will most probably terminate with a variation of the grandfather paradox. However, as John remembers the original message, he may pass it to Reese unchanged.
That's it. Ideas shamelessly taken from http://mjyoung.net . I post it here because I can imagine no way to weave it into the article - explanation of the basic principles would be worthy of a separate article itself, which would be immediately deleted as original research. - Sikon 09:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
________
I don't think John Conner ever had a father who wasn't Kyle. In the original timeline, I'd suspect that there was *no* John Conner and that the humans were on the verge of defeat (as opposed to having just won) when they sent Kyle back through time. Though this time, not to protect Sarah Conner, but to warn humanity of the coming storm. Obviously, they all think he's crazy, but for some reason he meets and befriends Sarah, who believes him, which eventually leads to John.
Which in turn leads to there being an exceptionally skilled general with foreknowledge of the rise of the machines. After all, we are lead to believe that the only reason John Conner becomes the "great military leader" is because his mother is preparing him for it. In a universe in which John's father is not Kyle, in which there was no time traveller, there is no reason for this preparation.
That said, before the arrival of the sequels (and until the ending of T2), Terminator 1 was a *perfect* example of the predestination paradox.
Personally I prefered it that way. ( Ulicus 04:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC))
I agree with the Sikon. That explanation would solve the pardoxes. But how stupid must Skynet have felt, when it realized that the effort of sending back the terminator was in vain..since this wouldn't alter its timeline and therefore make the machines win the war :o)
I don't think Night Watch is a predestination paradox. Lu-Tze clearly states that the Vimes who goes back in time was trained by the real John Keel. Things happen much as he remembered them (although not exactly), but that's because he's trying not to change things too much. In other words, it's a "branching universe" type of time travel, but the protaganist is being careful that a future similar to the one he left will result. Daibhid C 21:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
That's correct. The real John Keel, we are told, was killed by the other time traveller. Vimes simply follows through with what Keel had done. 19 April 2006
If you went back and impregnated your great-great-grandmother, your DNA in the present would slowly become more like yourself than yourself. This would be akin to Russell's Paradox. How can your DNA be more like itself than itself.? This would casue the universe to explode, even if you killed you real great great grandfather. Wait, uh, where is the paradox in that? Anyways, tell me what you think. -- Homfrog Homfrog Tell me a story! Contribulations Homfrog 20:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Could it possible that if a person were to go back in time, and changes the furute, a parreal timeline would occur in diffrent realms?
No, the reason is that if that were to happen, then the time must be something standing still, but in fact there's no past and no future, only the present is existing.
Therefor none of these things can happen.
Also if someone goes back in time and changes the future people back in the stoneages would be affected, especially if it was a loop that was created.
A loop = erasing of the universe, as time is something unified that one cannot alter or change, a loop would cause time itself to loop, therefor it would seize to exist.. or something.
As is being discussed on the Iron Man page, the song has nothing to do with witnessing a future apocalypse.
This article seems to be turning into a library of pop-culture references. The section dedicated to the original concept is now only a tiny portion of this article. I feel there should be more about the subject itself (which still seems utterly illogical to me) and a lot less references - perhaps the references could be moved to a new article about time travel references in fiction (or something similar) and just a small list of the most notable, predestination paradox specific references included. Opinions? Richard001 08:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Delete this entry concerning the Doctor Who episode 'Parting of the ways', which does not include a paradox, as the character(in a paranormal state) simply puts little reminders through time about her future,- as a reminder to go back and help, not as a causal agent of anykind. If this is a paradox then all Doctor Who episodes are a paradox as why does the doctor not just go to his adventures prior to his "medling",- they usually state "first law of time" or "nature of the universe" as to him not doing this. Book M 11:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Book_M
Someone (or more than one) seems to be confused about the meaning of predestination paradoxes. Going back in time and changing the future is not a predestination paradox, unless you change the future in a way that makes it inevitable that you would have gone back in time. Some of the examples given are in fact the exact opposite, the extended version of the grandfather paradox, changing the future in such a way that it's impossible for you to have gone back in time.
Many of the other examples are questionable at best, or better described otherwise (e.g., as ontological paradoxes), but I didn't take them out.
Also, while the first few examples are clearly notable (Futurama, Star Wars, Terminator, Planet of the Apes), does anyone other than a rabid fan think that Mucha Lucha, Time Warp Trio, or TimeSplitters really makes an good encyclopedic example? But again, I didn't take these out. -- 76.200.102.133 15:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I just watched the movie and the wikipedia article kinda sent me into this article. Anyway. The idea that Donnie choose to stay in his room and die when the engine fell based on what he new from the former time line could be a beginning of a causality. That's why I figure put the reference here since it is quite confusing and would require a great deal of deliberation on interpretations of the plot. Sukima 07:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Chris Marker's La_Jetée is probably an instance of the Predestination Paradox. The protagonist is chosen for his mission in part because of his clear and sharp memory of the incident from his childhood in which he saw a man killed in the airport. That man, of course, is his future self on the time-travel mission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.250.111 ( talk) 20:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Should it go into Examples from fiction section? I'm not absolutely sure if it's plot consists of a predestination paradox or not... Goomba Smackdown!! ( talk) 17:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
The solution to this "paradox" seems quite simple. I'll use this as an example: Person R hears Song X, created by Musician Z. R then time travels to before Z made X and shows X to Z. Z then creates X, which inspires R to time travel back..... but I think that Z would have created X anyways because of events that would have happened regardless of R time traveling. 99.2.196.205 ( talk) 03:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the paragraph about the Twilight Zone episode where Hitler was assassinated because it doesn't technically qualify as a predestination paradox. See, the paradox lies in the notion that cause and effect are one in the same, and how one action directly caused someone else to go back and try to stop it, but ultimately causes it. I don't see how a botched Hitler assassination would fall into this category. Feel free to explain it to me, but please remember Wikipedia's policy on Wikipedia:Edit warring while you do so. 70.178.75.61 ( talk) 19:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
A predestination paradox does not require a causality loop. The paradox (such as it is) lies in the predestination aspect, not the causality loop, and predestination occurs any time effects precede causes in time. If my actions are already a part of history, I'm predestined to travel back in time as surely as if I were part of a causality loop. The wiki definition of predestination paradox is thus flawed and misleading.
Here's a simple example that illustrates the point. A man lives in a town with a broken clock. He later falls through a natural wormhole into the past. While there, he somehow breaks the clock inadvertently. Technically, this isn't a causality loop because the broken clock didn't cause him to travel back in time. But it is still a predestination paradox because his act was already a part of history, predestining him to travel back in time.
76.166.24.51 ( talk) 17:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, DonQuixote, but you've simply restated what I originally said -- i.e., causal loops occur regularly in linear time. The point is that there's nothing intrinsically paradoxical about saying A causes B causes A. You can remove the time dimension from causal loop diagrams and they remain logically valid.
Again, a causality loop isn't a true paradox because there's no logical contradiction. A causing B causing A through time travel is simply counter-intuitive. I'm not sure where you're getting this erroneous notion that it's paradoxical not to know which event comes first. (Maybe you're confusing this with the chicken-and-egg problem?) The whole point of the block time/universe model is that all events exist simultaneously in spacetime. You're committing the "first time around" fallacy I mentioned earlier. There's no "first" event in my example of the broken clock, either.
Your own cited sources support my position. Although they mention causality loops, the explanation for why such loops paradoxical relates solely to the "predestination" aspect. Link 2 explains that predestination is required to keep the timeline self-consistent. Link 3 actually notes that this non-paradox applies to predestination in linear time, as well. Again, the "paradox," such as it is, relates solely to the tension between predestination and free will -- it has nothing necessarily to do with causality loops.
Ironically, the wiki definition itself has become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. The more people repeat the erroneous requirement of a causality loop, the more it becomes cemented as a requirement, even though it's superfluous. But you could erase that claim from the wiki and the rest of the definition would still apply. All causality loops may be predestination paradoxes, but not all predestination paradoxes are causality loops. 76.166.24.51 ( talk) 21:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"Predestination paradox" appears to be a term coined by Star Trek, try doing an advanced google book search where you put "predestination paradox" in the "with the exact phrase" box (no need to put quotes around it) and under the publication date, restrict the search to books published between 1900 and 2000. You can see that at least up until 2000, the only books that use the phrase in a time travel context (as opposed to some Christian sources that talk about a free will/predestination paradox) are books from the Star Trek franchise. And if you don't restrict the dates, I still only get 42 results, many Star Trek related and others which may have been influenced by Star Trek or by wikipedia articles that use "predestination paradox" as a synonym for causal loops. In contrast, doing a book search for "causal loop" and "time travel" (both phrases in quotes) turns up 65 results, many of which seem to be written by scientists, science journalists, or philosophers (I didn't see any results under "predestination paradox" that seem to have written by professionals of these types). Similarly, a search of "causal loop" and "time travel" on google scholar turns up 119 papers and articles, while a search for "predestination paradox" turns up only 23, and "predestination paradox" with "time travel" gives only 11 (most of which are discussing Star Trek or other works of fiction like Harry Potter and Superman). So it seems to me that "causal loop" is probably the more common term, especially among scientists and philosophers, so the wiki article should reflect that. Does anyone disagree? Hypnosifl ( talk) 16:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Specifically I don't remember ever seeing the term prior to Star Trek DS9: Trials and Tribble-ations aired November 1996. Wi-kiry-lan ( talk) 00:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Could a more proficient/known wikipedist with knowledge of the Misfits series (current) ending edit the Misfits section accordingly? Unless there was a serious retconning involved, the paradox described in the section went quite differently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.232.227 ( talk) 21:00, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
The first example (Oedipus), as suggested in one of the discussions above, is a good example of a "self-fulfilling prophecy," but closer to an edge case for a "predestination paradox." The plot would unfold as is if we include the Soothsayer being bribed to say what he does without any knowledge of the future. If we are providing examples, they should be a bit clearer: the "-All You Zombies-" examples should at least lead the list? --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 16:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
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The first paradox I learnt about when viewing the article is the grandfather paradox. Surely the first paradox to be explained should be the predestination paradox? -- 82.152.248.87 ( talk) 14:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't think so. If you read an article about the son of a famous singer, the article will first explain who the famous singer is, and then go into detail about the son. The Grandfather paradox is just more well-known, so it's a good place to start the subject.-- Mithcoriel ( talk) 13:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
If a man discover that he will die (in the future!!!) from heart attack and then (in the present!!) travel to the past and say to himself to get fit, and then he overexerts himself, killing herself of a heart attack, how he will travel to the past now?? (since he is doing exercises, because he think the if he do the exercises he will not die from heart attack) And if he not traveled in time, how did he suffered a heart attack?? [since he discovered that he will suffer a heart attack on the future (after the traveling back in time)] 201.58.117.54
The way I understood it: Let's say his friend, after seeing him die of a heart attack, travels to the past and tells him: "Watch out, you'll die of a heart attack!" He exercises to prevent this, dies of a heart attack, and then his friend travels back in time to warn him. The text doesn't clearly state it went like this, but I'm guessing it must have been something along those lines. -- Mithcoriel ( talk) 12:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
It may appear as such, but the "Predestination paradox" is not , in physics, really a paradox at all. Philosophically, it contradicts the idea of free will, but even this may be apparent, in as much as it is simply a case of free will not allow you to break the laws of the universe (for example, if I step off a cliff, I'd rather not fall, but no matter how much I will myself to stay in the air, the basic laws of physics state that I have to fall) 128.232.250.254 14:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In a multiverse (like the reality of quantum mechanics) this is actualy not a paradox. Protons can only exist because they are in balance with their own virtual presence, in other words without their virtual counterpart they could not exist. That results in about 90% of their mass that indeed doesnt exist, dough virtualy it does (but not here). The problem and solution is that quantum world doesnt respect our known world, things can be at the same places, or be linked on an informational level, over great distance. Quantum world can be interpretended as a many to many universes solution (at a micro scale, but also bigger scales).
Its just that we cant observe an alternate world, in which our reality doesnt match.
we only can observe the micro scale where we indeed see it does overlap.
As to the quantum world there are no problem to flip between realities/virtualities (what happened inside protons), and so if there are many realities (where the othere 90% of the mass of a proton sits) then there is a many world reality and in such world this paradox could simply happen, a particle slipping to another reality create havoc there.. and that reality ends (well ends its just out of our evenhorizon, another reality.
I realize this attribution looks to weird, but read about the double split experiment that might be a good starter point to learn about quantum mechanics. As in a multiverse it isnt a problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.115.69 ( talk) 00:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree that this is not a paradox. A paradox is when your assumptions seem reasonable but they lead to a logical contradiction. For example, the twin paradox purports to show that assuming special relativity leads to each twin being older than the other. Paradoxes can be resolved by showing that the assumptions are not correctly stated. In the twin paradox, the resolution is that one twin changed reference frames and the other didn't, and this breaks the symmetry and shows that both twins agree that only one is older.
But there is no paradox in the "predestination" case, because there is no logical contradiction.
In addition, "predestination" has nothing to do with this so-called paradox. Predestination is about whether you can or cannot choose what you will do. Just because you do choose something, the outcome of which is known in advance, does not mean that you could not have chosen otherwise. For example, I drop a stone. At the moment of dropping it I know that it will hit the ground, but to say that it is "predestined" to hit the ground means that I had no choice in whether to drop it. Likewise, if I know that in the future I will perform some action it does not mean that I do not have the freedom to choose whether I perform it. It's the difference between "did happen" and "cannot have have happened any other way". Time travel discussions are often confused by this distinction. Shrikeangel ( talk) 01:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
You're referring specifically to a physical paradox, hence the physics reference. Saying that this is a philosophical paradox doesn't imply that it is a physical one, and so you're both correct, albeit using semantics that aren't precise enough to convey it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.182.153.50 ( talk) 20:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
'there is no paradox in the "predestination" case, because there is no logical contradiction': If you kindly read the article about paradox, you'll note that "logical contradiction" is not always required, "defies intuition" is another way of acquiring paradoxness. Aside from that, if it is called a paradox by the literature, then that's what we state. If other WP:RS disagree, we report that, too. Our own opinions and judgments are unimportant. Paradoctor ( talk) 20:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I've heard the following paradox somewhere, but I don't know the name of it or who invented it.
So, in which category should this paradox be included?
-- Maio 07:06, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
This isn't time machine related but time traveling.
In an episode of Andromeda, the ship is somehow sent back into time where they encounter an enemy fleet. I haven't watched the show for ages so I forget the name of the race. But they find thousands of enemy ships, but historical records indicate there were only a few dozen ships that were destroyed by a human fleet. The captain decides to interfere and uses some bomb which devastates nearly the entire enemy fleet. The guy with the spikes in his hand speaks to the captain in a seperate room. He tells him about a certain folklore story. There were thousands of ships and victory was guarenteed. But then an angel of death appeared and destroyed most of the fleet. He says something similar to this effect "I have met that angel of death".
Unless I'm not very much mistaken the 999 years Braxton referenced was about the "Future's End" double episode and had not happened before the events of the episode "EPIC". As such I removed the last sentence of that paragraph. -_- 203.79.112.66 13:18, 32 Jul 2096 (not UTC)
I wonder if the Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan scenario ("...the antique eyeglasses Captain Kirk receives from Doctor McCoy in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which Kirk leaves in the 20th Century in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home so it can be eventually bought by McCoy") might be complicated by the fact that the glasses are intact when McCoy gives them to Kirk in the 23rd century, but one of the lenses is cracked when Kirk later pawns them in the 20th century. Assuming they're the same glasses, then they must be repaired sometime before McCoy buys them for Kirk, and with each repetition of this loop they age by another 300 years. Most of the other examples given involve the origins of information or genetic code (i.e. people), both of which can be reproduced easily. -- Arteitle 05:45, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
I fail not to see how Back to the Future falls in this category, since the 1985 Marty returns to is definately not the 1985 he left. -_- ckape ( talk) 07:22, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)
I agree (<--- NOT), Back to the Future implies the opposite to what u said. This paradox require the space Traveler not to be the original one to inspire the paradox. But in the beginning of the movie they are in an altered time line in which Marty traveled back to 1789 (as seen by the unbroken ledge), and Goldie Wilson did run with Marty's suggestion, and Johnny B Good was written with Marty's help. there is no relation with this paradox and BTTF. <-- lie 68.109.92.47 23:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
In some respects, predestination paradox and self-fulfilling prophecy can just be a case of to-MAY-to and to-MAH-to. From the perspective of a paradox, receiving information about an event from the future that causes a series of events that culminate in the said event if and only if the information was sent back in time in the first place is a predestination paradox. DonQuixote 17:51, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The following isn't really a paradox since the future event doesn't cause itself. It's just something that happens of its own accord.
DonQuixote 05:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This hardly qualifies as a predestination paradox, because it is constantly made clear that the past can be changed, therefore the movies are set in a mutable, not fixed timeline. Therefore, the timeline in which Skynet is built by Cyberdyne using parts of the first Terminator follows a timeline in which Skynet is built by some other company, later, and Judgment Day therefore occurs later than 1997. This company presumably builds Skynet in the timeline shown in T3, when Cyberdyne is destroyed.
The assumption that the movies take place in altered timelines, and the original timeline is never shown, not only follows the plot more accurately (allowing the past to change), but also resolves most, if not all, predestination paradoxes. For example, John Connor was Kyle Reese's son in the T1 timeline and all the subsequent timelines, but he was born from a different father in the original timeline where Reese had yet to be sent into the past.
The message is said to be memorized, so John must forcefully learn it and make sure it reaches the future unchanged. I believe this is done to make sure the message is delivered the same way as it was in the original timeline. To clarify: in the original timeline, John creates the message (here we have its necessary original source) and passes it to Reese, who alters the past by his very presence (let alone replacing John's original father with himself), and if John does not memorize the message the way it was, the message he creates himself may be different from the one he created in the original timeline, which would result in a different Reese arriving into the past (as long as Reese remembers a different message), a different past, a different future etc. - an incredibly dangerous loop that will most probably terminate with a variation of the grandfather paradox. However, as John remembers the original message, he may pass it to Reese unchanged.
That's it. Ideas shamelessly taken from http://mjyoung.net . I post it here because I can imagine no way to weave it into the article - explanation of the basic principles would be worthy of a separate article itself, which would be immediately deleted as original research. - Sikon 09:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
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I don't think John Conner ever had a father who wasn't Kyle. In the original timeline, I'd suspect that there was *no* John Conner and that the humans were on the verge of defeat (as opposed to having just won) when they sent Kyle back through time. Though this time, not to protect Sarah Conner, but to warn humanity of the coming storm. Obviously, they all think he's crazy, but for some reason he meets and befriends Sarah, who believes him, which eventually leads to John.
Which in turn leads to there being an exceptionally skilled general with foreknowledge of the rise of the machines. After all, we are lead to believe that the only reason John Conner becomes the "great military leader" is because his mother is preparing him for it. In a universe in which John's father is not Kyle, in which there was no time traveller, there is no reason for this preparation.
That said, before the arrival of the sequels (and until the ending of T2), Terminator 1 was a *perfect* example of the predestination paradox.
Personally I prefered it that way. ( Ulicus 04:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC))
I agree with the Sikon. That explanation would solve the pardoxes. But how stupid must Skynet have felt, when it realized that the effort of sending back the terminator was in vain..since this wouldn't alter its timeline and therefore make the machines win the war :o)
I don't think Night Watch is a predestination paradox. Lu-Tze clearly states that the Vimes who goes back in time was trained by the real John Keel. Things happen much as he remembered them (although not exactly), but that's because he's trying not to change things too much. In other words, it's a "branching universe" type of time travel, but the protaganist is being careful that a future similar to the one he left will result. Daibhid C 21:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
That's correct. The real John Keel, we are told, was killed by the other time traveller. Vimes simply follows through with what Keel had done. 19 April 2006
If you went back and impregnated your great-great-grandmother, your DNA in the present would slowly become more like yourself than yourself. This would be akin to Russell's Paradox. How can your DNA be more like itself than itself.? This would casue the universe to explode, even if you killed you real great great grandfather. Wait, uh, where is the paradox in that? Anyways, tell me what you think. -- Homfrog Homfrog Tell me a story! Contribulations Homfrog 20:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Could it possible that if a person were to go back in time, and changes the furute, a parreal timeline would occur in diffrent realms?
No, the reason is that if that were to happen, then the time must be something standing still, but in fact there's no past and no future, only the present is existing.
Therefor none of these things can happen.
Also if someone goes back in time and changes the future people back in the stoneages would be affected, especially if it was a loop that was created.
A loop = erasing of the universe, as time is something unified that one cannot alter or change, a loop would cause time itself to loop, therefor it would seize to exist.. or something.
As is being discussed on the Iron Man page, the song has nothing to do with witnessing a future apocalypse.
This article seems to be turning into a library of pop-culture references. The section dedicated to the original concept is now only a tiny portion of this article. I feel there should be more about the subject itself (which still seems utterly illogical to me) and a lot less references - perhaps the references could be moved to a new article about time travel references in fiction (or something similar) and just a small list of the most notable, predestination paradox specific references included. Opinions? Richard001 08:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Delete this entry concerning the Doctor Who episode 'Parting of the ways', which does not include a paradox, as the character(in a paranormal state) simply puts little reminders through time about her future,- as a reminder to go back and help, not as a causal agent of anykind. If this is a paradox then all Doctor Who episodes are a paradox as why does the doctor not just go to his adventures prior to his "medling",- they usually state "first law of time" or "nature of the universe" as to him not doing this. Book M 11:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Book_M
Someone (or more than one) seems to be confused about the meaning of predestination paradoxes. Going back in time and changing the future is not a predestination paradox, unless you change the future in a way that makes it inevitable that you would have gone back in time. Some of the examples given are in fact the exact opposite, the extended version of the grandfather paradox, changing the future in such a way that it's impossible for you to have gone back in time.
Many of the other examples are questionable at best, or better described otherwise (e.g., as ontological paradoxes), but I didn't take them out.
Also, while the first few examples are clearly notable (Futurama, Star Wars, Terminator, Planet of the Apes), does anyone other than a rabid fan think that Mucha Lucha, Time Warp Trio, or TimeSplitters really makes an good encyclopedic example? But again, I didn't take these out. -- 76.200.102.133 15:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I just watched the movie and the wikipedia article kinda sent me into this article. Anyway. The idea that Donnie choose to stay in his room and die when the engine fell based on what he new from the former time line could be a beginning of a causality. That's why I figure put the reference here since it is quite confusing and would require a great deal of deliberation on interpretations of the plot. Sukima 07:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Chris Marker's La_Jetée is probably an instance of the Predestination Paradox. The protagonist is chosen for his mission in part because of his clear and sharp memory of the incident from his childhood in which he saw a man killed in the airport. That man, of course, is his future self on the time-travel mission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.250.111 ( talk) 20:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Should it go into Examples from fiction section? I'm not absolutely sure if it's plot consists of a predestination paradox or not... Goomba Smackdown!! ( talk) 17:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
The solution to this "paradox" seems quite simple. I'll use this as an example: Person R hears Song X, created by Musician Z. R then time travels to before Z made X and shows X to Z. Z then creates X, which inspires R to time travel back..... but I think that Z would have created X anyways because of events that would have happened regardless of R time traveling. 99.2.196.205 ( talk) 03:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the paragraph about the Twilight Zone episode where Hitler was assassinated because it doesn't technically qualify as a predestination paradox. See, the paradox lies in the notion that cause and effect are one in the same, and how one action directly caused someone else to go back and try to stop it, but ultimately causes it. I don't see how a botched Hitler assassination would fall into this category. Feel free to explain it to me, but please remember Wikipedia's policy on Wikipedia:Edit warring while you do so. 70.178.75.61 ( talk) 19:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
A predestination paradox does not require a causality loop. The paradox (such as it is) lies in the predestination aspect, not the causality loop, and predestination occurs any time effects precede causes in time. If my actions are already a part of history, I'm predestined to travel back in time as surely as if I were part of a causality loop. The wiki definition of predestination paradox is thus flawed and misleading.
Here's a simple example that illustrates the point. A man lives in a town with a broken clock. He later falls through a natural wormhole into the past. While there, he somehow breaks the clock inadvertently. Technically, this isn't a causality loop because the broken clock didn't cause him to travel back in time. But it is still a predestination paradox because his act was already a part of history, predestining him to travel back in time.
76.166.24.51 ( talk) 17:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, DonQuixote, but you've simply restated what I originally said -- i.e., causal loops occur regularly in linear time. The point is that there's nothing intrinsically paradoxical about saying A causes B causes A. You can remove the time dimension from causal loop diagrams and they remain logically valid.
Again, a causality loop isn't a true paradox because there's no logical contradiction. A causing B causing A through time travel is simply counter-intuitive. I'm not sure where you're getting this erroneous notion that it's paradoxical not to know which event comes first. (Maybe you're confusing this with the chicken-and-egg problem?) The whole point of the block time/universe model is that all events exist simultaneously in spacetime. You're committing the "first time around" fallacy I mentioned earlier. There's no "first" event in my example of the broken clock, either.
Your own cited sources support my position. Although they mention causality loops, the explanation for why such loops paradoxical relates solely to the "predestination" aspect. Link 2 explains that predestination is required to keep the timeline self-consistent. Link 3 actually notes that this non-paradox applies to predestination in linear time, as well. Again, the "paradox," such as it is, relates solely to the tension between predestination and free will -- it has nothing necessarily to do with causality loops.
Ironically, the wiki definition itself has become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. The more people repeat the erroneous requirement of a causality loop, the more it becomes cemented as a requirement, even though it's superfluous. But you could erase that claim from the wiki and the rest of the definition would still apply. All causality loops may be predestination paradoxes, but not all predestination paradoxes are causality loops. 76.166.24.51 ( talk) 21:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"Predestination paradox" appears to be a term coined by Star Trek, try doing an advanced google book search where you put "predestination paradox" in the "with the exact phrase" box (no need to put quotes around it) and under the publication date, restrict the search to books published between 1900 and 2000. You can see that at least up until 2000, the only books that use the phrase in a time travel context (as opposed to some Christian sources that talk about a free will/predestination paradox) are books from the Star Trek franchise. And if you don't restrict the dates, I still only get 42 results, many Star Trek related and others which may have been influenced by Star Trek or by wikipedia articles that use "predestination paradox" as a synonym for causal loops. In contrast, doing a book search for "causal loop" and "time travel" (both phrases in quotes) turns up 65 results, many of which seem to be written by scientists, science journalists, or philosophers (I didn't see any results under "predestination paradox" that seem to have written by professionals of these types). Similarly, a search of "causal loop" and "time travel" on google scholar turns up 119 papers and articles, while a search for "predestination paradox" turns up only 23, and "predestination paradox" with "time travel" gives only 11 (most of which are discussing Star Trek or other works of fiction like Harry Potter and Superman). So it seems to me that "causal loop" is probably the more common term, especially among scientists and philosophers, so the wiki article should reflect that. Does anyone disagree? Hypnosifl ( talk) 16:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Specifically I don't remember ever seeing the term prior to Star Trek DS9: Trials and Tribble-ations aired November 1996. Wi-kiry-lan ( talk) 00:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Could a more proficient/known wikipedist with knowledge of the Misfits series (current) ending edit the Misfits section accordingly? Unless there was a serious retconning involved, the paradox described in the section went quite differently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.232.227 ( talk) 21:00, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
The first example (Oedipus), as suggested in one of the discussions above, is a good example of a "self-fulfilling prophecy," but closer to an edge case for a "predestination paradox." The plot would unfold as is if we include the Soothsayer being bribed to say what he does without any knowledge of the future. If we are providing examples, they should be a bit clearer: the "-All You Zombies-" examples should at least lead the list? --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 16:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)