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On 2 September 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Predestination in Christianity. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The subsection "Biblical support of predestination" states "Some Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below. Note that most of these verses do not distinguish between the conditional election (Arminian) and unconditional election (Calvinist), but are simply evidence of some type of election".
The subsection "Biblical support of free will" states "It is evident from the Biblical scriptures that God creates options that humans can choose; our ability to have chosen another option is essential to God caring about the choice that we make (and His particular absolute, more than temporal, unchanging, eternal judgement of that choice)".
This looks non-NPOV to me, as it seems to impy that the "Biblical support of free will" is the correct interpretation of the scripture. (And indeed, that God exists and the Bible is true). Iapetus ( talk) 00:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
It's worth a mention that several pagan religions believed that humans' fates are out of their hands. In Greek mythology, for example, the three Fates determine when someone is born, what "path" their life will take, and how long it'll be before humans die. Even the gods were subject to fate, though not nearly to the same extent. Germanic paganism holds a similar view. SorcererCallandira2 ( talk) 09:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)SorcererCallandira2
"In Yoruba mythology, it is also believed that the issue of predestination hold firmly a traditional/spiritual opinion relating to the creation of human race by the supreme being (God). It is argued that all human being has chosen hes or her destiny from the supreme being call "Olodumare" in Yoruba mythology and as such acting in accordance to what destiny has been chosen, which in a large extent cannot by any means whatsoever be changed. Thus this conception is then opened to criticism to determine the wrongness or the rightness of whatever course of action exhibited by human being since he or she is only acting in accordance to what has been chosen by him." 11:24. 8 September 2014 (IPOOLA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipoolawunmi ( talk • contribs) 10:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but a great part of this article is beside the point, including the very first sentence. No, predestination is not "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God". No one has ever used the word in this way. There exist such a doctrine indeed, and it has the precise name "Providence", and has never been called anything else. Predestination, on the other hand, means Providence in so far it concerns the fact that people finally go to Heaven. "Predestination" has never been used in any other sense than meaning this eternal fate. Nor is this doctrine specifically Calvinistic, at best, it should be said somewhere in the body of the article, not the introduction, that it tends to be associated with Calvinism. The decisive doctrine of Calvinism in this matter is "positive reprobation ante praevisa merita". Calvin himself saw no difference there, which is why he taught it, but that is neither neutral point of view nor - I'm Catholic, as you guessed - the right point of view.-- 77.4.46.200 ( talk) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be good to use the same bible version in all of the quoted verses supporting predestination and free will. I noticed that verses from many different bibles are used, and it might help if they were all from the same bible. (I prefer the KJV, so I would love to see all of the verses in that format, but that's just me.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gypsy Danger Dynamite ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Almost all translations since the AV 1611 or King James Version laud and compare themselves to the AV it would seem most appropriate that the AV should be the base to make reference to biblical quotes. At the very least all biblical quotations should state the version used.-- Dpaulw ( talk) 12:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
It seems like Predestination is usually used specifically in Christianity, and there are simply some "related concepts" in other religions. A See also link, or a brief "similar concepts in other religions" section seems like it should suffice here. The categories certainly suggest this is mostly about Christianity... it'd enable the "this is all about Christianity" tag to be removed, as the article could simply explicitly be about just that. SnowFire ( talk) 04:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Responding to the above, I don't think it's workable to say "Predestination" will be just about Christianity when the Islam article is called Predestination in Islam and "predestination in Judaism" returns lots of Google hits. It appears that predestination is an important facet of Islam, though I am not an expert. My proposal is to keep the article as a broad concept article, but split the current Christianity content to Predestination in Christianity. The Christianity section of this page will be WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. -- JFH ( talk) 20:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus, in giving more weight to English-language sources in determining WP:PTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME, is that readers expect the Christian concept when searching for "predestination". ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 21:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Predestination → Predestination in Christianity – The concept of "predestination" occurs in multiple religions, it is not exclusive to Christianity. We already have an article on Predestination in Islam. Although Christian and Muslim beliefs on this topic are not identical, you can find a lot of scholarly literature in comparative religion, etc, comparing and contrasting their respective beliefs on the same topic (see e.g. Google Scholar). There are also comparable beliefs in other religions (such as the ancient Greek belief in Moirai) and some work in comparative religion has compared those beliefs to Christian/Islamic concepts of predestination as well.
Therefore I propose the main article, Predestination, should consider the concept of "predestination" from a comparative religions viewpoint, providing a brief overview of the views (or range of views) in each religion on this issue, and relying on those scholarly sources which discuss the similarities and differences between doctrines of predestination in Christianity, Islam, and other religions. And then we can have sub-articles Predestination in Christianity and Predestination in Islam to cover each of those religion's views on this topic in more detail. (There is probably not enough material to support such an article for any other religion at present, but that could always change if someone found sufficient sources to set up such an article for a different religion). This would require deleting the existing redirect Predestination in Christianity to here (which I assume requires administrator assistance), and then after moving this article to Predestination in Christianity we can create a stub here for Predestination across multiple religions, and then we can work on fleshing out that stub into a proper article.
The current situation, where we have an article called plain Predestination about Christianity, and one called Predestination in Islam about Islam, is not treating Christianity and Islam equally, it is a Christian-centric approach. (I'm not suggesting there has been any deliberate intention here by anyone to treat the two religions unequally–sometimes these situations can just happen by accident.) Mr248 ( talk) 02:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
I believe "destiny" is the literal translation, "predestination" is an alternative, non-literal translation=> do you have a reliable source for that claim? I don't agree that "destiny" is a "literal translation" and "predestination" is a "non-literal translation". I have never seen any such claim in the scholarly literature on Islam.
I still don't agree with you about how PTOPIC should apply here, perhaps I've missed it but I haven't seen you presenting an argument that the topic in comparative religion is the primary topic, and that we should set PTOPIC aside as you
think avoiding WP:BIAS (or even its appearance) ... is more important. Is this correct, or have I misunderstood your position? BilledMammal ( talk) 05:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. We have no hard data on whether any given reader searching for "Predestination" is looking for information on Christianity only, or information on Islam only, or information on both equally. Even if you are going to argue that more people want to know about "Predestination" in Christianity than Islam, "much more likely" is a high bar to reach, and I don't see any hard evidence it is met in this case.
A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term., per this statement I made above:
I just had a look myself, and so far the evidence is that the concept in Christianity is primary, based on page views in Wikipedia, positioning in Google and Bing search results, the Britannica article under the title "predestination", and the articles first presented when searching academic databases like JSTOR. Mr248 did point out that this was a result of an English search, but PTOPIC, like COMMONNAME, looks at
English Reliable Sources. They also pointed out that there are two components to PTOPIC, with long term significance being the other one, but as long term significance is likely comparable I believe usage serves as an effective "tie-breaker". BilledMammal ( talk) 06:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
as long term significance is likely comparable I believe usage serves as an effective "tie-breaker"– why do we need to break the tie? Why not instead conclude that Christianity and Islam are equally primary? In which case, the logical primary topic is the higher-level topic (predestination in religion) which encompasses both predestination in Christianity and predestination in Islam. Mr248 ( talk) 10:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
IMO this connection is very worth to be included in this article. PeterTrompeter ( talk) 08:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
About 30 percent of the references for this article is from Matthew Levering's book, Predestination: Biblical and Theological Paths (2011). These additions were made during December 2015. The edits during this period retained about 58 percent of the original material, with 20 percent of new material added. New material added includes double predestination and the majority of the history section. In regards to the history section, 1055 of the words from the December 2015 edits remain in the current article. Around 46 percent of the references in the history section are from Matthew Levering's book, Predestination: Biblical and Theological Paths (2011). 49.180.9.26 ( talk) 04:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
The passage cited from Pope John Paul II's "Redemptoris Missio" appears to be taken out of context, or at the very least re-interpreted by a wiki editor to apply to predestination, when that wasn't the original source's intent. Connecting the passage and reframing it in light of predestination would then seem to be an editorial choice and wouldn't be appropriate for a Wikipedia article.
In case there's a wikipedia policy allowing for this type of secondary interpretation, I'm leaving a comment here for someone more familiar to hopefully find, rather than removing the passage from this article myself. 64.135.139.165 ( talk) 22:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 2 September 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Predestination in Christianity. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The subsection "Biblical support of predestination" states "Some Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below. Note that most of these verses do not distinguish between the conditional election (Arminian) and unconditional election (Calvinist), but are simply evidence of some type of election".
The subsection "Biblical support of free will" states "It is evident from the Biblical scriptures that God creates options that humans can choose; our ability to have chosen another option is essential to God caring about the choice that we make (and His particular absolute, more than temporal, unchanging, eternal judgement of that choice)".
This looks non-NPOV to me, as it seems to impy that the "Biblical support of free will" is the correct interpretation of the scripture. (And indeed, that God exists and the Bible is true). Iapetus ( talk) 00:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
It's worth a mention that several pagan religions believed that humans' fates are out of their hands. In Greek mythology, for example, the three Fates determine when someone is born, what "path" their life will take, and how long it'll be before humans die. Even the gods were subject to fate, though not nearly to the same extent. Germanic paganism holds a similar view. SorcererCallandira2 ( talk) 09:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)SorcererCallandira2
"In Yoruba mythology, it is also believed that the issue of predestination hold firmly a traditional/spiritual opinion relating to the creation of human race by the supreme being (God). It is argued that all human being has chosen hes or her destiny from the supreme being call "Olodumare" in Yoruba mythology and as such acting in accordance to what destiny has been chosen, which in a large extent cannot by any means whatsoever be changed. Thus this conception is then opened to criticism to determine the wrongness or the rightness of whatever course of action exhibited by human being since he or she is only acting in accordance to what has been chosen by him." 11:24. 8 September 2014 (IPOOLA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipoolawunmi ( talk • contribs) 10:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but a great part of this article is beside the point, including the very first sentence. No, predestination is not "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God". No one has ever used the word in this way. There exist such a doctrine indeed, and it has the precise name "Providence", and has never been called anything else. Predestination, on the other hand, means Providence in so far it concerns the fact that people finally go to Heaven. "Predestination" has never been used in any other sense than meaning this eternal fate. Nor is this doctrine specifically Calvinistic, at best, it should be said somewhere in the body of the article, not the introduction, that it tends to be associated with Calvinism. The decisive doctrine of Calvinism in this matter is "positive reprobation ante praevisa merita". Calvin himself saw no difference there, which is why he taught it, but that is neither neutral point of view nor - I'm Catholic, as you guessed - the right point of view.-- 77.4.46.200 ( talk) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be good to use the same bible version in all of the quoted verses supporting predestination and free will. I noticed that verses from many different bibles are used, and it might help if they were all from the same bible. (I prefer the KJV, so I would love to see all of the verses in that format, but that's just me.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gypsy Danger Dynamite ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Almost all translations since the AV 1611 or King James Version laud and compare themselves to the AV it would seem most appropriate that the AV should be the base to make reference to biblical quotes. At the very least all biblical quotations should state the version used.-- Dpaulw ( talk) 12:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
It seems like Predestination is usually used specifically in Christianity, and there are simply some "related concepts" in other religions. A See also link, or a brief "similar concepts in other religions" section seems like it should suffice here. The categories certainly suggest this is mostly about Christianity... it'd enable the "this is all about Christianity" tag to be removed, as the article could simply explicitly be about just that. SnowFire ( talk) 04:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Responding to the above, I don't think it's workable to say "Predestination" will be just about Christianity when the Islam article is called Predestination in Islam and "predestination in Judaism" returns lots of Google hits. It appears that predestination is an important facet of Islam, though I am not an expert. My proposal is to keep the article as a broad concept article, but split the current Christianity content to Predestination in Christianity. The Christianity section of this page will be WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. -- JFH ( talk) 20:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Predestination. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:23, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus, in giving more weight to English-language sources in determining WP:PTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME, is that readers expect the Christian concept when searching for "predestination". ( non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 21:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Predestination → Predestination in Christianity – The concept of "predestination" occurs in multiple religions, it is not exclusive to Christianity. We already have an article on Predestination in Islam. Although Christian and Muslim beliefs on this topic are not identical, you can find a lot of scholarly literature in comparative religion, etc, comparing and contrasting their respective beliefs on the same topic (see e.g. Google Scholar). There are also comparable beliefs in other religions (such as the ancient Greek belief in Moirai) and some work in comparative religion has compared those beliefs to Christian/Islamic concepts of predestination as well.
Therefore I propose the main article, Predestination, should consider the concept of "predestination" from a comparative religions viewpoint, providing a brief overview of the views (or range of views) in each religion on this issue, and relying on those scholarly sources which discuss the similarities and differences between doctrines of predestination in Christianity, Islam, and other religions. And then we can have sub-articles Predestination in Christianity and Predestination in Islam to cover each of those religion's views on this topic in more detail. (There is probably not enough material to support such an article for any other religion at present, but that could always change if someone found sufficient sources to set up such an article for a different religion). This would require deleting the existing redirect Predestination in Christianity to here (which I assume requires administrator assistance), and then after moving this article to Predestination in Christianity we can create a stub here for Predestination across multiple religions, and then we can work on fleshing out that stub into a proper article.
The current situation, where we have an article called plain Predestination about Christianity, and one called Predestination in Islam about Islam, is not treating Christianity and Islam equally, it is a Christian-centric approach. (I'm not suggesting there has been any deliberate intention here by anyone to treat the two religions unequally–sometimes these situations can just happen by accident.) Mr248 ( talk) 02:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
I believe "destiny" is the literal translation, "predestination" is an alternative, non-literal translation=> do you have a reliable source for that claim? I don't agree that "destiny" is a "literal translation" and "predestination" is a "non-literal translation". I have never seen any such claim in the scholarly literature on Islam.
I still don't agree with you about how PTOPIC should apply here, perhaps I've missed it but I haven't seen you presenting an argument that the topic in comparative religion is the primary topic, and that we should set PTOPIC aside as you
think avoiding WP:BIAS (or even its appearance) ... is more important. Is this correct, or have I misunderstood your position? BilledMammal ( talk) 05:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. We have no hard data on whether any given reader searching for "Predestination" is looking for information on Christianity only, or information on Islam only, or information on both equally. Even if you are going to argue that more people want to know about "Predestination" in Christianity than Islam, "much more likely" is a high bar to reach, and I don't see any hard evidence it is met in this case.
A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term., per this statement I made above:
I just had a look myself, and so far the evidence is that the concept in Christianity is primary, based on page views in Wikipedia, positioning in Google and Bing search results, the Britannica article under the title "predestination", and the articles first presented when searching academic databases like JSTOR. Mr248 did point out that this was a result of an English search, but PTOPIC, like COMMONNAME, looks at
English Reliable Sources. They also pointed out that there are two components to PTOPIC, with long term significance being the other one, but as long term significance is likely comparable I believe usage serves as an effective "tie-breaker". BilledMammal ( talk) 06:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
as long term significance is likely comparable I believe usage serves as an effective "tie-breaker"– why do we need to break the tie? Why not instead conclude that Christianity and Islam are equally primary? In which case, the logical primary topic is the higher-level topic (predestination in religion) which encompasses both predestination in Christianity and predestination in Islam. Mr248 ( talk) 10:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
IMO this connection is very worth to be included in this article. PeterTrompeter ( talk) 08:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
About 30 percent of the references for this article is from Matthew Levering's book, Predestination: Biblical and Theological Paths (2011). These additions were made during December 2015. The edits during this period retained about 58 percent of the original material, with 20 percent of new material added. New material added includes double predestination and the majority of the history section. In regards to the history section, 1055 of the words from the December 2015 edits remain in the current article. Around 46 percent of the references in the history section are from Matthew Levering's book, Predestination: Biblical and Theological Paths (2011). 49.180.9.26 ( talk) 04:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
The passage cited from Pope John Paul II's "Redemptoris Missio" appears to be taken out of context, or at the very least re-interpreted by a wiki editor to apply to predestination, when that wasn't the original source's intent. Connecting the passage and reframing it in light of predestination would then seem to be an editorial choice and wouldn't be appropriate for a Wikipedia article.
In case there's a wikipedia policy allowing for this type of secondary interpretation, I'm leaving a comment here for someone more familiar to hopefully find, rather than removing the passage from this article myself. 64.135.139.165 ( talk) 22:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)