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This page says the "only" surviving pre-dreadnought is the Japanese museum ship, but the USS Olympia ( http://www.spanamwar.com/olympia.htm) is also still around. Is there some reason it is disqualified or should the page be edited?
The USS Olympia (C-6) is a protected cruiser, not a pre-dreadnought battleship. Thanks, though! Atkindave 16:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)Atkindave.
First, what two Sino-Japanese Wars are being refered to? Second, while the thought is expanded in a succeeding statement in another section, pre-dreadnoughts were used in several major naval clashes; Battle of Yalu, Battle of the Yellow Sea, Battle of Santiago, and others all come to mind. Therefore, this statement is effectively bankrupt in discussing "clashes of the pre-dreadnought era". If the author is prefering battleship-on-battleship engagements, a better clarification should be made (the description, and indeed the page title, is of an "era" in naval architecture, not necessarily a ship type). In following with that parenthetical line of thought, I also suggest that the main page be titled "Pre-Dreadnought Battleship", as opposed to "Pre-Dreadnought" as this can maintain clarity on what is being expressed and described. -- Angelsy1 09:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is primarily directed to "The Land", but other editors should feel free to discuss. First off, good job on fleshing this out. As you may have noticed, I don't have very dry prose, and so was hesitant to edit the article myself. Second, the points of history and technology...
1. While I know the popular term is "turret", most later pre-deads mounted barbettes with gun shields. Is it advisable to make the distinction? The turreted designs were marked by lower freeboard and thus weaker sea-keeping characteristics. Reference the mentioned Royal Sovereign class with its one-off half sister HMS Hood - this was built to examine the difference between barbette and turret mounts in warships. The gun shields were adopted later as QF weaponry became more readily available (and thus more of a danger to crews and the guns themselves). They were not true turrets, however.
2. I see that the 9.4 inch gun is sited as the first standardised piece available to German pre-dreadnought battleships... I disagree, but certainly see where you are coming from. It's a matter of opinion whether the Brandenburg class are the first German pre-dreadnoughts, but I think they share more characteristics than not. They mount their armament similarly to other pre-dreads, albeit with two different calibres of 11 inch main weapons (28 and 35 cal, IIRC). That they mount six rather than four main weapons is not a disqualifier, I believe. They are certainly separate in design elements from the Sachsen class and the Oldenburg.
In any case, as I said, it's open for discussion. Comments? -- Angelsy1 22:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea of having an image of HMS Dreadnought (1875) in an article on Pre- HMS Dreadnought (1906) without further remarks? It's rather cute, but may lead to confusion... -- Stephan Schulz 10:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Should we move this page to "Pre-dreadnought battleship"? For non-experts, that might make it clearer that we are talking about ships, not about e.g. the era. -- Stephan Schulz 16:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, would it be advisable to make a note of this battle in this article and provide a link to the main article on that battle? Once again, I must defer to people with a better writing style than myself, but my reasoning is that it would help to illustrate the obsolescence of pre-dreads against dreadnoughts (not completely obsolete, as the Russians had raised the elevations of their guns to provide a comparable range to the Germans' 50 calibre weapons). -- Angelsy1 ( talk) 11:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
From the WWI section;
Considering that the Lord Nelson and Agamemnon spent the rest of the war sat out at Mudros waiting for Goeben (or Yavuz Sultan Selim) to come through the straits, this seems rather odd. And that there is no mention of Cape Sarych where Russian pre-dreadnoughts engaged Goeben and Breslau and gave the Germans the shock of their lives, is equally baffling. Summary article this may be, but since there isn't an article on the Cape Sarych encounter it ought to be mentioned here. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 00:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this section needs to be rectified. This article deals with pre-dreadnought battleships yet several of the ships included in this section are not pre-dreadnoughts. That's the case of the cruisers Olympia and Aurora and the ironclads Huáscar and Cerberus. As those type of ships are not the subject of this article I removed them but got reverted. Any reason why they should be kept here? -- Victor12 ( talk) 02:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone (an IP) had added HMVS Cerberus to the "Surviving Pre-dreadnought warships with rotating gun turrets" category of the article, although I'm not sure it qualifies as it is not a battleship-size vessel, and currently 'exists' as a deteriorating breakwater. 137.111.143.146 ( talk) 03:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a thought: what did they call pre-dreadnought battleships at the time? Was there a clear conception of a significant break with the previous ironclad battleships, represented by the Majestic? PatGallacher ( talk) 17:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it worth considering some level of protection for this article now? Seems to be coming under sustained attack... Martocticvs ( talk) 22:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It isn't often that the lead image at a featured article deserves replacement, but this time seems to be justified. I have located and restored a very high resolution photochrom print of the first US battleship. Nominating it for featured picture shortly. Removed a shot of the Great White Fleet to make room for it (wasn't sure where else the Great White Fleet would fit, since the section on the US in the Pacific already had two photos). The full version of the USS Texas shot is 30MB, so a lower resolution 1.5MB version is available at File:USS Texas2 courtesy copy.jpg. Best regards, Durova Charge! 16:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The Dreadnaught article states that the USS Texas (BB-35) was launched in 1912 while this article states that it was launched in 1892. Does the pre-dreadnaught article refer to another USS Texas? Osli73 ( talk) 19:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
[RM withdrawn by the requester. Noetica Tea? 06:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Pre-dreadnought battleship → Pre-Dreadnought battleship –
Somehow this featured article is named with a lower-case "d" in "dreadnought", though that is clearly a proper name for a ship. The article uses that lower-case form throughout. Unless I am missing something fundamental, this RM should be uncontroversial. Noetica Tea? 06:28, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
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&Nbsp;Nbsp;nbsp;I repeat here, on talk, my comment, embedded in the article, where it seemed important to explain to any colleague who found the edit mysterious. This repetition is unnecessary, but arguably worthwhile here where its obscure but IMO potentially valuable point Of distinction may be A bit more accessible, without Resigning to Resorting to the IMO transcending!y obscure purgatory of the
WP:ESSAY. For some colleagues, my 2020 May 19 verbose edit summary may prove ... provocatively valuable, and/or valuably provocative.
—
JerzyA (
talk)
14:58, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
As noted here, some additional inline citations will be needed for the modern FA standards. Current sourcing looks otherwise fine- I'd try to get the inline citations added, but my personal library of naval sources only covers American vessels and primarily the 1860-1880 period. Hopefully the discussion currently ongoing at WT:MILHIST can attract someone with the proper sources - this shouldn't be a hard cleanup if someone has the right sources. Ideally the situation of Wikipedia:Featured article review/Ironclad warship/archive1 can be avoided. Hog Farm Talk 06:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
The article stated 39 pre-dreadnought battleships in RN service or under construction in 1904, beginning with the Majestics and including the Swiftsures.
However, this omits the second-class battleship Renown, so the total would in fact be 40 (the Swiftsures themselves were second-class battleships). It is also unclear as to why the 1889 NDA's ten battleships were not included in this count, as they were very much part of the pre-dreadnought line of development in the RN and are counted as such under this article.
Therefore, including both first- and second-class battleships, but omitting the two slightly later Lord Nelsons (addressed in the article as of a 'post-dreadnought' date), the true size of the pre-dreadnought RN fleet was fifty battleships. This has now been corrected. The approximate number of earlier legacy battleships has also been adjusted accordingly. 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:C6C:89C3:7D79:E7E2 ( talk) 23:40, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
For most, the pre-dreadnought battleship is the classic 12-inch and 6-inch armed type from the Majestic to the Mikasa, covering a period of less than fifteen years. This type largely ceased construction by 1906.
As this article also concerns itself with the later battleships of non-dreadnought type - the 'semi-dreadnoughts' - which were still under construction when HMS Dreadnought appeared in the Royal navy, we should accept that we are talking about a construction period which extends beyond the early part of the 1900s and into the later part of that decade.
Both the Lord Nelsons and the French Dantons fit this type and this date period, as well as do the Japanese Satsuma, Italian Regina Elena, French Liberte and Russian Andrei Pervozvanny classes; all completing construction around 1908 or in some cases slightly later.
I am returning this article's opening paragraph to "late 1900s" accordingly, as the facts support this rather better than "early 1900s". 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:D41F:F644:EA84:3318 ( talk) 18:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pre-dreadnought battleship article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Pre-dreadnought battleship is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 6, 2008. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
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|
This page says the "only" surviving pre-dreadnought is the Japanese museum ship, but the USS Olympia ( http://www.spanamwar.com/olympia.htm) is also still around. Is there some reason it is disqualified or should the page be edited?
The USS Olympia (C-6) is a protected cruiser, not a pre-dreadnought battleship. Thanks, though! Atkindave 16:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)Atkindave.
First, what two Sino-Japanese Wars are being refered to? Second, while the thought is expanded in a succeeding statement in another section, pre-dreadnoughts were used in several major naval clashes; Battle of Yalu, Battle of the Yellow Sea, Battle of Santiago, and others all come to mind. Therefore, this statement is effectively bankrupt in discussing "clashes of the pre-dreadnought era". If the author is prefering battleship-on-battleship engagements, a better clarification should be made (the description, and indeed the page title, is of an "era" in naval architecture, not necessarily a ship type). In following with that parenthetical line of thought, I also suggest that the main page be titled "Pre-Dreadnought Battleship", as opposed to "Pre-Dreadnought" as this can maintain clarity on what is being expressed and described. -- Angelsy1 09:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is primarily directed to "The Land", but other editors should feel free to discuss. First off, good job on fleshing this out. As you may have noticed, I don't have very dry prose, and so was hesitant to edit the article myself. Second, the points of history and technology...
1. While I know the popular term is "turret", most later pre-deads mounted barbettes with gun shields. Is it advisable to make the distinction? The turreted designs were marked by lower freeboard and thus weaker sea-keeping characteristics. Reference the mentioned Royal Sovereign class with its one-off half sister HMS Hood - this was built to examine the difference between barbette and turret mounts in warships. The gun shields were adopted later as QF weaponry became more readily available (and thus more of a danger to crews and the guns themselves). They were not true turrets, however.
2. I see that the 9.4 inch gun is sited as the first standardised piece available to German pre-dreadnought battleships... I disagree, but certainly see where you are coming from. It's a matter of opinion whether the Brandenburg class are the first German pre-dreadnoughts, but I think they share more characteristics than not. They mount their armament similarly to other pre-dreads, albeit with two different calibres of 11 inch main weapons (28 and 35 cal, IIRC). That they mount six rather than four main weapons is not a disqualifier, I believe. They are certainly separate in design elements from the Sachsen class and the Oldenburg.
In any case, as I said, it's open for discussion. Comments? -- Angelsy1 22:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea of having an image of HMS Dreadnought (1875) in an article on Pre- HMS Dreadnought (1906) without further remarks? It's rather cute, but may lead to confusion... -- Stephan Schulz 10:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Should we move this page to "Pre-dreadnought battleship"? For non-experts, that might make it clearer that we are talking about ships, not about e.g. the era. -- Stephan Schulz 16:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, would it be advisable to make a note of this battle in this article and provide a link to the main article on that battle? Once again, I must defer to people with a better writing style than myself, but my reasoning is that it would help to illustrate the obsolescence of pre-dreads against dreadnoughts (not completely obsolete, as the Russians had raised the elevations of their guns to provide a comparable range to the Germans' 50 calibre weapons). -- Angelsy1 ( talk) 11:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
From the WWI section;
Considering that the Lord Nelson and Agamemnon spent the rest of the war sat out at Mudros waiting for Goeben (or Yavuz Sultan Selim) to come through the straits, this seems rather odd. And that there is no mention of Cape Sarych where Russian pre-dreadnoughts engaged Goeben and Breslau and gave the Germans the shock of their lives, is equally baffling. Summary article this may be, but since there isn't an article on the Cape Sarych encounter it ought to be mentioned here. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 00:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this section needs to be rectified. This article deals with pre-dreadnought battleships yet several of the ships included in this section are not pre-dreadnoughts. That's the case of the cruisers Olympia and Aurora and the ironclads Huáscar and Cerberus. As those type of ships are not the subject of this article I removed them but got reverted. Any reason why they should be kept here? -- Victor12 ( talk) 02:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone (an IP) had added HMVS Cerberus to the "Surviving Pre-dreadnought warships with rotating gun turrets" category of the article, although I'm not sure it qualifies as it is not a battleship-size vessel, and currently 'exists' as a deteriorating breakwater. 137.111.143.146 ( talk) 03:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a thought: what did they call pre-dreadnought battleships at the time? Was there a clear conception of a significant break with the previous ironclad battleships, represented by the Majestic? PatGallacher ( talk) 17:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it worth considering some level of protection for this article now? Seems to be coming under sustained attack... Martocticvs ( talk) 22:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It isn't often that the lead image at a featured article deserves replacement, but this time seems to be justified. I have located and restored a very high resolution photochrom print of the first US battleship. Nominating it for featured picture shortly. Removed a shot of the Great White Fleet to make room for it (wasn't sure where else the Great White Fleet would fit, since the section on the US in the Pacific already had two photos). The full version of the USS Texas shot is 30MB, so a lower resolution 1.5MB version is available at File:USS Texas2 courtesy copy.jpg. Best regards, Durova Charge! 16:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The Dreadnaught article states that the USS Texas (BB-35) was launched in 1912 while this article states that it was launched in 1892. Does the pre-dreadnaught article refer to another USS Texas? Osli73 ( talk) 19:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
[RM withdrawn by the requester. Noetica Tea? 06:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Pre-dreadnought battleship → Pre-Dreadnought battleship –
Somehow this featured article is named with a lower-case "d" in "dreadnought", though that is clearly a proper name for a ship. The article uses that lower-case form throughout. Unless I am missing something fundamental, this RM should be uncontroversial. Noetica Tea? 06:28, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
&Nbsp;Nbsp;nbsp;I repeat here, on talk, my comment, embedded in the article, where it seemed important to explain to any colleague who found the edit mysterious. This repetition is unnecessary, but arguably worthwhile here where its obscure but IMO potentially valuable point Of distinction may be A bit more accessible, without Resigning to Resorting to the IMO transcending!y obscure purgatory of the
WP:ESSAY. For some colleagues, my 2020 May 19 verbose edit summary may prove ... provocatively valuable, and/or valuably provocative.
—
JerzyA (
talk)
14:58, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
As noted here, some additional inline citations will be needed for the modern FA standards. Current sourcing looks otherwise fine- I'd try to get the inline citations added, but my personal library of naval sources only covers American vessels and primarily the 1860-1880 period. Hopefully the discussion currently ongoing at WT:MILHIST can attract someone with the proper sources - this shouldn't be a hard cleanup if someone has the right sources. Ideally the situation of Wikipedia:Featured article review/Ironclad warship/archive1 can be avoided. Hog Farm Talk 06:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
The article stated 39 pre-dreadnought battleships in RN service or under construction in 1904, beginning with the Majestics and including the Swiftsures.
However, this omits the second-class battleship Renown, so the total would in fact be 40 (the Swiftsures themselves were second-class battleships). It is also unclear as to why the 1889 NDA's ten battleships were not included in this count, as they were very much part of the pre-dreadnought line of development in the RN and are counted as such under this article.
Therefore, including both first- and second-class battleships, but omitting the two slightly later Lord Nelsons (addressed in the article as of a 'post-dreadnought' date), the true size of the pre-dreadnought RN fleet was fifty battleships. This has now been corrected. The approximate number of earlier legacy battleships has also been adjusted accordingly. 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:C6C:89C3:7D79:E7E2 ( talk) 23:40, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
For most, the pre-dreadnought battleship is the classic 12-inch and 6-inch armed type from the Majestic to the Mikasa, covering a period of less than fifteen years. This type largely ceased construction by 1906.
As this article also concerns itself with the later battleships of non-dreadnought type - the 'semi-dreadnoughts' - which were still under construction when HMS Dreadnought appeared in the Royal navy, we should accept that we are talking about a construction period which extends beyond the early part of the 1900s and into the later part of that decade.
Both the Lord Nelsons and the French Dantons fit this type and this date period, as well as do the Japanese Satsuma, Italian Regina Elena, French Liberte and Russian Andrei Pervozvanny classes; all completing construction around 1908 or in some cases slightly later.
I am returning this article's opening paragraph to "late 1900s" accordingly, as the facts support this rather better than "early 1900s". 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:D41F:F644:EA84:3318 ( talk) 18:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)