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Yet another 3 months have passed since my last comment on this Irish Post Codes article. At that time I went into detail on what I considered incorrect in the article. I also suggested (not for the first time) that the article should be removed in favour of a complete rewrite.
As expected nothing has happened - mostly because those who share my feelings are afraid to touch the article or even comment because a gate keeper who calls himself a "Censor" is stalking in this cyberspace.
It is now clear to anyone that there is no budget allocation for a National Postcode system in Ireland in 2009 - easily checked on line - making the article even more embarassingly out of date.
Again it has come as no suprise to me to note that only when I try to contribute does anyone take an interest in this article - otherwise there is no interest in it at all - it is now a forgotten orphan and an embarrassment to Ireland's input into Wikipedia!
This statement appears on the top of the article made on 20th June 2008 last ( i.e. 6 months ago!). "A major contributor to this article or its creator appears to have a conflict of interest with its subject. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view. Please discuss further on the talk page. (June 20, 2008)"
Nothing has happened - does nobody care?
Garydubh ( talk) 13:57, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Garda40 - Happy New Year to you... An Post is a semi state organisation which does NOT run or legislate for communications (including Postage) in Ireland - that is the responsibility of ComReg on Behalf of the Dep Of Comms on Behalf of the Minister on behalf of the Government. Liberalisation in the Postal market begins this year - any canges to matters postal will be implemented for the benefit of all participants, new and old, by an independent organisation. So this idea which is maintained on here that An Post makes the decisions is completely incorrect! An Post may of course use Post Codes but they do not want them and do not require them to sort mail. They were advised by the Royal Mail Postal Consultancy to go with Geodirectory and OCR 25 years ago and this they have done ! However, new players will need some form of Codes - not so much for sorting but more for delivery - that is why GPS Ireland designed PON Codes. So getting back to your comments - it will not be up to An Post and therefore it will be up to the Dept of Communications to come up with the estimated Euro 15 million for a National System - there is no such allocation in Dept Of Comms budget for this year. Its on the web - have a look.
I've removed this section. This article is about the official postal address system in use in Ireland - Secretary-whbt, if you think that would qualify as an article in its own right under WP's notability criteria, then request that one be written ( WP:COI prevents you from writing it). Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore allegations that that user had COI entries in this aricle are also incorrect - the user has made no contribution to discussion on this article since Jan 2009 and has had not entry in the article since April 2008 - you used this as a justification for blocking the user - again completley incorrect and unfounded. The user in question has no further interest in your article.
You made reference to a personal name in association with the accused user - the personal name is not a user name - do not use it here again.
You made reference to a company name in a derogatory manner implying that there was some issue with the work of the company - do not do so again.
Finally, if your article is about the official postcode system of Ireland - then the article should be removed as there is no official postcode system in Ireland yet and the provision of such is subject to an open tender comeptition which your discussion may prejudice and undermine.
Please do not mention relevant user name, personal name, company name or product name on this article or related discussion without the permission of the relevant owners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.108.125 ( talk • contribs)
Wow! I made what I thought would be a useful contribution to the Republic of Ireland Postcodes article and what a mare's nest I now find myself in. My style or content appears to have been attributed to a user called garrydubh. I have no connection with him or anyone else in this matter. My earlier Wiki contributions have been on sailing and Wexford Harbour! I am a retired soil scientist who worked in mapping and GIS for almost 20 years before I retired. I was in the public service and I have absolutely no COI whatever. I will leave the dust settle for a week or two and submit a carefully considered piece on the subject and see how this goes down. In the meantime, could the editors please remove material suggesting that someone else wrote my contribution.
-- 93.107.83.250 ( talk) 14:32, 24 October 2009 (UTC) PS To avoid more confusion, above paragraph was written by Secretary-whbtc (which is a boat club in Wexford)! Secretary-whbtc ( talk) 14:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
As a result of Seanad Debate on October 21 October highlighting an independent alternative and demands by Liz McManus Labour Party for cancellation of Government Postcode plan - and also because of An Post Union opposition and the current budgetary crisis, the Irish Government National PostCode Plan now appears on indefinite hold. Dubhtail ( talk) 10:08, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
It might be helpful to add more information to the article about the details of the format that the government is now committed to implement.
The National Postcodes Project Board recommended an alpha-numeric, publicly available and accessible postcode model. The country would be divided into approximately 200 post towns. Within each post town there would be groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties. The postcode would have the structure ABC 123 in its numeric code, the first three characters representing the post town, the second three representing the group of properties in which the particular building is located.
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Proposed Postcodes: Statements, Seanad Debate, 21 October 2009 (p. 358)
This seems to confirm the format detailed in the "postal sector model" of the 2006 technical design document:
- Model Nomenclature
The nomenclature is:
- AAA NNN (e.g. SWO 456), or
- ANN NNN (e.g. D13 456, or C02 456), or
- ANA NNN (only for Dublin 6 district e.g. D6W 456), or
- AAN NNN (e.g. LK2 456)
Where:
- AAA is referred to as the Locality Identifier for Post-Towns outside of Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork, or any other specifically required post-towns;
- ANN is the Locality Identifier for existing Dublin Postal Districts and other specific post-towns in areas across the country where there is a need to define the same general post-town name on which a district is defined e.g. in Cork, Galway, Limerick (and any other areas defined specifically during implementation)
- ANA is the Locality Identifier for existing Dublin Postal District 6W (this being the only exception that requires such a nomenclature);
- AAN is the Locality Identifier for Limerick area post-towns in the form LK1, LK2 etc.;
- 456 is the Sector number within that Post-town (effectively an area defining a blockface).
Note: the postcode will always have six characters.
— National Postcodes Project Board, Technical Design, 5 July 2006 (section 2.3.3)
Is this indeed the case? If so, it would be helpful to add this information and references to the article to reflect the Government's adopted policy.
The DCENR webpage would also be a useful external link: [1]
The reference in the current article to DO4 should presumably be to D04 (digit zero not letter O).
Incidentally, noting List of towns in the Republic of Ireland by population (and allowing for multiple occupants per residential property), I'm surprised that a system that permits a maximum of 1,000 sectors per post town is thought sufficiently flexible to divide every town (with special arrangements for Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Cork) into sectors of 50 or fewer properties while allowing for future changes.
— Richardguk ( talk) 17:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) The National Postcodes Project Board specifically recommended a system that allows for the retention of existing zones in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork and, potentially, elsewhere, as set out in the above extract. This is presumably intended to avoid the need for rezoning.
I agree that the Government seems to have sidestepped the problem of existing ambiguous or non-unique addresses. But whatever the merits of the adopted policy, its limitations do not make it unworkable and it is reasonable that the article reflects what the Government is likely to implement.
Taking account of several ministerial statements between 21 September and 17 December 2009, I would say that, rightly or wrongly, the above format is now Government policy and no longer merely an aspiration.
It is true that the wording of the official announcement left some room for manoeuvre:
Communications Minister Eamon Ryan today announced that the Government has approved the introduction of a new postal code system for Ireland.
The Department of Communications will issue an invitation to tender shortly for the implementation of this new system. It is expected that post codes will be assigned and in use in early 2011.
...
It is envisaged that an alphanumeric postal system (ABC 123) will be used to identify clusters of houses.
Sample: Ms. A Murphy
Apt 7 Blue Building
Pearse Street
D02 123Mr. B Collins
Main Street
Athlone
ATH 123The exact allocation and design will not be finalised until the tender process is complete.
Announcing the move, Minister Ryan said, "A postal code system represents an excellent investment for any modern country and is essential for the development of the digital economy. I look forward to working on its swift implementation over the next 15 months."
— Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Minister Ryan announces new postal code system for Ireland, press release, 21 September 2009
But subsequent ministerial statements seem to confirm that there is no intention to diverge significantly from the ABC 123 format proposed by the board and illustrated in the above press release.
In particular, the minister has confirmed that the Government has approved implementation "as recommended" by the board, noting that the recommendation was for the ABC 123 format:
The Government recently approved the implementation of a postcode as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board (NPPB). In arriving at the recommended model the consultants assisting the NPPB, both technical and economic, engaged in a series of stakeholder consultations. Additionally the project has benefited from other consultations all of which have been consistent in revealing widespread support for the introduction of postcodes. There are no plans to engage in further consultations.
The NPPB was established to recommend the most appropriate postcode system for Ireland and to look at the costs and benefits and implementation of postcodes and recommended an alpha-numeric post code model taking the form of ABC 123. The precise postcode nomenclature and the allocation of individual postcodes will not be finalised until the body that will be charged with implementing postcodes is appointed.
...
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Postal Services, Dáil Written Answers, 6 October 2009 (p. 809)
This is reiterated in debate with a minister repeating the recommendation and then stating unambiguously that "the postcode will have the structure ABC 123" (emphasis added):
...the Government has recently approved the implementation of a postcode for Ireland as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board. ...
... The recommendation is an alphanumeric, publicly available and accessible postcode. The country would be divided into approximately 200 post towns, within each of which will be groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties. The postcode will have the structure ABC 123, with the first three characters representing the post town and the second three characters representing the group of properties in which the particular building is located. The six-character code was selected for a number of reasons, including the ability of the population to remember their codes. The inclusion of a reference to the placename would also assist in this regard.
...
Following on from the Government approval to implement postcodes, the officials in the Minister's Department are working to address the next steps in this project, including the process of selecting a body to implement the proposed system. It is expected that postcodes will be assigned and in use in 2011.
— Deputy John Moloney (on behalf of Deputy Eamon Ryan), Irish Language Placenames, Dáil Debate, 18 November 2009 (p. 135)
In the past few days, the minister confirmed explicitly that the board's recommended alpha-numeric model is now "approved by the Government":
The Government recently approved the implementation of a postcode as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board. This Board was established to recommend the most appropriate postcode system for Ireland and to look at the costs and benefits and implementation of postcodes. The model recommended, and approved by Government, is an alpha-numeric, publicly available and accessible postcode model. Each postcode would have a geo-coordinate at its centre and consequently would be compatible with global positioning or navigation systems. In arriving at this model, the technical and economic consultants who assisted the Board, engaged in a series of stakeholder consultations. ...
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Postal Services, Dáil Written Answers, 17 December 2009
The Government may have adopted a policy that is opposed by some people, but since there seems to be consensus that postcode policy is, in principle, legitimate for the Government to determine, it would seem appropriate for the article to reflect what the Government has now resolved to do.
Political opposition and counterproposals are of course relevant, but only in the context of the Government's adopted policy. If people oppose the policy, we at least need to know exactly what is being opposed.
— Richardguk ( talk) 22:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Residents in Dublin's coveted D4 addresses have only two years left until their exclusive postcode is renamed by the Department of Communications, as plans for the new postcode system are finalised by Minister Eamon Ryan. The department plans to issue tenders for the system by Easter, but a delay has meant the code will not be in place until the end of 2011, and not early next year as planned. Under the new coding system, areas such as Dublin 4 and Dublin 6 will be renamed under a new six-digit system, such as D04123 and D06123. ...
— Jennifer Bray, Ryan finalises plans for new postcode system, Sunday Tribune, 3 January 2010
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Yet another 3 months have passed since my last comment on this Irish Post Codes article. At that time I went into detail on what I considered incorrect in the article. I also suggested (not for the first time) that the article should be removed in favour of a complete rewrite.
As expected nothing has happened - mostly because those who share my feelings are afraid to touch the article or even comment because a gate keeper who calls himself a "Censor" is stalking in this cyberspace.
It is now clear to anyone that there is no budget allocation for a National Postcode system in Ireland in 2009 - easily checked on line - making the article even more embarassingly out of date.
Again it has come as no suprise to me to note that only when I try to contribute does anyone take an interest in this article - otherwise there is no interest in it at all - it is now a forgotten orphan and an embarrassment to Ireland's input into Wikipedia!
This statement appears on the top of the article made on 20th June 2008 last ( i.e. 6 months ago!). "A major contributor to this article or its creator appears to have a conflict of interest with its subject. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view. Please discuss further on the talk page. (June 20, 2008)"
Nothing has happened - does nobody care?
Garydubh ( talk) 13:57, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Garda40 - Happy New Year to you... An Post is a semi state organisation which does NOT run or legislate for communications (including Postage) in Ireland - that is the responsibility of ComReg on Behalf of the Dep Of Comms on Behalf of the Minister on behalf of the Government. Liberalisation in the Postal market begins this year - any canges to matters postal will be implemented for the benefit of all participants, new and old, by an independent organisation. So this idea which is maintained on here that An Post makes the decisions is completely incorrect! An Post may of course use Post Codes but they do not want them and do not require them to sort mail. They were advised by the Royal Mail Postal Consultancy to go with Geodirectory and OCR 25 years ago and this they have done ! However, new players will need some form of Codes - not so much for sorting but more for delivery - that is why GPS Ireland designed PON Codes. So getting back to your comments - it will not be up to An Post and therefore it will be up to the Dept of Communications to come up with the estimated Euro 15 million for a National System - there is no such allocation in Dept Of Comms budget for this year. Its on the web - have a look.
I've removed this section. This article is about the official postal address system in use in Ireland - Secretary-whbt, if you think that would qualify as an article in its own right under WP's notability criteria, then request that one be written ( WP:COI prevents you from writing it). Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore allegations that that user had COI entries in this aricle are also incorrect - the user has made no contribution to discussion on this article since Jan 2009 and has had not entry in the article since April 2008 - you used this as a justification for blocking the user - again completley incorrect and unfounded. The user in question has no further interest in your article.
You made reference to a personal name in association with the accused user - the personal name is not a user name - do not use it here again.
You made reference to a company name in a derogatory manner implying that there was some issue with the work of the company - do not do so again.
Finally, if your article is about the official postcode system of Ireland - then the article should be removed as there is no official postcode system in Ireland yet and the provision of such is subject to an open tender comeptition which your discussion may prejudice and undermine.
Please do not mention relevant user name, personal name, company name or product name on this article or related discussion without the permission of the relevant owners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.108.125 ( talk • contribs)
Wow! I made what I thought would be a useful contribution to the Republic of Ireland Postcodes article and what a mare's nest I now find myself in. My style or content appears to have been attributed to a user called garrydubh. I have no connection with him or anyone else in this matter. My earlier Wiki contributions have been on sailing and Wexford Harbour! I am a retired soil scientist who worked in mapping and GIS for almost 20 years before I retired. I was in the public service and I have absolutely no COI whatever. I will leave the dust settle for a week or two and submit a carefully considered piece on the subject and see how this goes down. In the meantime, could the editors please remove material suggesting that someone else wrote my contribution.
-- 93.107.83.250 ( talk) 14:32, 24 October 2009 (UTC) PS To avoid more confusion, above paragraph was written by Secretary-whbtc (which is a boat club in Wexford)! Secretary-whbtc ( talk) 14:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
As a result of Seanad Debate on October 21 October highlighting an independent alternative and demands by Liz McManus Labour Party for cancellation of Government Postcode plan - and also because of An Post Union opposition and the current budgetary crisis, the Irish Government National PostCode Plan now appears on indefinite hold. Dubhtail ( talk) 10:08, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
It might be helpful to add more information to the article about the details of the format that the government is now committed to implement.
The National Postcodes Project Board recommended an alpha-numeric, publicly available and accessible postcode model. The country would be divided into approximately 200 post towns. Within each post town there would be groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties. The postcode would have the structure ABC 123 in its numeric code, the first three characters representing the post town, the second three representing the group of properties in which the particular building is located.
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Proposed Postcodes: Statements, Seanad Debate, 21 October 2009 (p. 358)
This seems to confirm the format detailed in the "postal sector model" of the 2006 technical design document:
- Model Nomenclature
The nomenclature is:
- AAA NNN (e.g. SWO 456), or
- ANN NNN (e.g. D13 456, or C02 456), or
- ANA NNN (only for Dublin 6 district e.g. D6W 456), or
- AAN NNN (e.g. LK2 456)
Where:
- AAA is referred to as the Locality Identifier for Post-Towns outside of Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork, or any other specifically required post-towns;
- ANN is the Locality Identifier for existing Dublin Postal Districts and other specific post-towns in areas across the country where there is a need to define the same general post-town name on which a district is defined e.g. in Cork, Galway, Limerick (and any other areas defined specifically during implementation)
- ANA is the Locality Identifier for existing Dublin Postal District 6W (this being the only exception that requires such a nomenclature);
- AAN is the Locality Identifier for Limerick area post-towns in the form LK1, LK2 etc.;
- 456 is the Sector number within that Post-town (effectively an area defining a blockface).
Note: the postcode will always have six characters.
— National Postcodes Project Board, Technical Design, 5 July 2006 (section 2.3.3)
Is this indeed the case? If so, it would be helpful to add this information and references to the article to reflect the Government's adopted policy.
The DCENR webpage would also be a useful external link: [1]
The reference in the current article to DO4 should presumably be to D04 (digit zero not letter O).
Incidentally, noting List of towns in the Republic of Ireland by population (and allowing for multiple occupants per residential property), I'm surprised that a system that permits a maximum of 1,000 sectors per post town is thought sufficiently flexible to divide every town (with special arrangements for Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Cork) into sectors of 50 or fewer properties while allowing for future changes.
— Richardguk ( talk) 17:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) The National Postcodes Project Board specifically recommended a system that allows for the retention of existing zones in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork and, potentially, elsewhere, as set out in the above extract. This is presumably intended to avoid the need for rezoning.
I agree that the Government seems to have sidestepped the problem of existing ambiguous or non-unique addresses. But whatever the merits of the adopted policy, its limitations do not make it unworkable and it is reasonable that the article reflects what the Government is likely to implement.
Taking account of several ministerial statements between 21 September and 17 December 2009, I would say that, rightly or wrongly, the above format is now Government policy and no longer merely an aspiration.
It is true that the wording of the official announcement left some room for manoeuvre:
Communications Minister Eamon Ryan today announced that the Government has approved the introduction of a new postal code system for Ireland.
The Department of Communications will issue an invitation to tender shortly for the implementation of this new system. It is expected that post codes will be assigned and in use in early 2011.
...
It is envisaged that an alphanumeric postal system (ABC 123) will be used to identify clusters of houses.
Sample: Ms. A Murphy
Apt 7 Blue Building
Pearse Street
D02 123Mr. B Collins
Main Street
Athlone
ATH 123The exact allocation and design will not be finalised until the tender process is complete.
Announcing the move, Minister Ryan said, "A postal code system represents an excellent investment for any modern country and is essential for the development of the digital economy. I look forward to working on its swift implementation over the next 15 months."
— Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Minister Ryan announces new postal code system for Ireland, press release, 21 September 2009
But subsequent ministerial statements seem to confirm that there is no intention to diverge significantly from the ABC 123 format proposed by the board and illustrated in the above press release.
In particular, the minister has confirmed that the Government has approved implementation "as recommended" by the board, noting that the recommendation was for the ABC 123 format:
The Government recently approved the implementation of a postcode as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board (NPPB). In arriving at the recommended model the consultants assisting the NPPB, both technical and economic, engaged in a series of stakeholder consultations. Additionally the project has benefited from other consultations all of which have been consistent in revealing widespread support for the introduction of postcodes. There are no plans to engage in further consultations.
The NPPB was established to recommend the most appropriate postcode system for Ireland and to look at the costs and benefits and implementation of postcodes and recommended an alpha-numeric post code model taking the form of ABC 123. The precise postcode nomenclature and the allocation of individual postcodes will not be finalised until the body that will be charged with implementing postcodes is appointed.
...
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Postal Services, Dáil Written Answers, 6 October 2009 (p. 809)
This is reiterated in debate with a minister repeating the recommendation and then stating unambiguously that "the postcode will have the structure ABC 123" (emphasis added):
...the Government has recently approved the implementation of a postcode for Ireland as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board. ...
... The recommendation is an alphanumeric, publicly available and accessible postcode. The country would be divided into approximately 200 post towns, within each of which will be groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties. The postcode will have the structure ABC 123, with the first three characters representing the post town and the second three characters representing the group of properties in which the particular building is located. The six-character code was selected for a number of reasons, including the ability of the population to remember their codes. The inclusion of a reference to the placename would also assist in this regard.
...
Following on from the Government approval to implement postcodes, the officials in the Minister's Department are working to address the next steps in this project, including the process of selecting a body to implement the proposed system. It is expected that postcodes will be assigned and in use in 2011.
— Deputy John Moloney (on behalf of Deputy Eamon Ryan), Irish Language Placenames, Dáil Debate, 18 November 2009 (p. 135)
In the past few days, the minister confirmed explicitly that the board's recommended alpha-numeric model is now "approved by the Government":
The Government recently approved the implementation of a postcode as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board. This Board was established to recommend the most appropriate postcode system for Ireland and to look at the costs and benefits and implementation of postcodes. The model recommended, and approved by Government, is an alpha-numeric, publicly available and accessible postcode model. Each postcode would have a geo-coordinate at its centre and consequently would be compatible with global positioning or navigation systems. In arriving at this model, the technical and economic consultants who assisted the Board, engaged in a series of stakeholder consultations. ...
— Deputy Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Postal Services, Dáil Written Answers, 17 December 2009
The Government may have adopted a policy that is opposed by some people, but since there seems to be consensus that postcode policy is, in principle, legitimate for the Government to determine, it would seem appropriate for the article to reflect what the Government has now resolved to do.
Political opposition and counterproposals are of course relevant, but only in the context of the Government's adopted policy. If people oppose the policy, we at least need to know exactly what is being opposed.
— Richardguk ( talk) 22:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Residents in Dublin's coveted D4 addresses have only two years left until their exclusive postcode is renamed by the Department of Communications, as plans for the new postcode system are finalised by Minister Eamon Ryan. The department plans to issue tenders for the system by Easter, but a delay has meant the code will not be in place until the end of 2011, and not early next year as planned. Under the new coding system, areas such as Dublin 4 and Dublin 6 will be renamed under a new six-digit system, such as D04123 and D06123. ...
— Jennifer Bray, Ryan finalises plans for new postcode system, Sunday Tribune, 3 January 2010