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Brazil has not a historical capital, or a main city - like most countries in the world has - whose dialect is made a standart for the country's language. We have two big cities - São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro - that has two very distinct dialects and a capital - Brasilia - that has a melted dialect, recently formed.
So, there's not a thing we may call Standart Brazilian, it is topic for much discussion and ABL doesn't help.
I'm suggesting to accept in Wikipedia Jornal Nacional (TV Globo news) accent, as a most clearful and acceptable either for people from SP and people from RJ.
Other possibility is not to accept a single dilect, but try to discuss phoneme by phoneme.
Any more suggestions? José San Martin 23:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
they often pronunciate: poɾtu'ges (there's a dominance of São Paulo's dialect). There is no such thing as a Brazilian standard, it is your creation, Peter. But during early 20th century that was defined to be Rio's, but the international agreements define no standard differentiation, in order to maintain the unity of the language. And BTW, it is not that different, just because people pronunciate a sound somewhat differently doesnt make it a lot different. Besides Rio's dialect is more popular in soap operas. About standard Portuguese pronunciation I prefer not to discuss that issue now, because I think you are doing a nice job, so I don't want to spoil nothing and the problem is not serious. over and out. ;) -- Pedro 15:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
A seção "Dialects - Brazil" e o que ela insinua está completamente errada. A língua portuguesa no Brasil não possui nenhum dialeto: todos falam e escrevem o mesmo português. Desde quando gírias e sotaque de voz são suficientes para definir e diferenciar dialetos? Dialeto carioca, dialeto paulista, dialeto nordestino.. isso me soa Wikipedia:Original research pois nas universidades de Letras (inclusive na USP) não se leciona tamanha baboseira.
No Brasil, como em qualquer outro país, HÁ dialectos, porque o português, como qualquer outra língua apresenta variação. Essa variação pode ser fonética ou fonológica (aquilo a que normalmente se chama "sotaque" e que envolve fenómenos que vão da acentuação à entoação a fonemas diferentes), pode ser lexical (ou seja, uso de diferentes palavras, aquilo a que chama "gírias"),pode ser morfológica e sintáctica ou pode ser tudo isto ao mesmo tempo. Para além das variedades regionais (os chamados "dialectos") há no Brazil pelo menos duas grandes variedades: o português padrão do Brasil e o português vernáculo do Brasil. Uma coisa é dizer que isto não é ensinado nas escolas, o que é verdade, essencialmente por razões políticas; outra coisa é dizer que o português do Brasil não apresenta variedades, pois isto não só é mentira, como resulta de uma falta de informação atroz. Tão atroz que ignora mais de 100 anos de literatura linguística que prova precisamente a existência destas variedades.
I saw that the example "Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro." is tagged as a regional usage. Is "Nós traremos-vos o vosso ceptro." the "correct one" in official grammar? Obrigado! Qrfqr 19:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
BTW I have read the discussion in ARCHIVE3. I know that there always are some differences between a prescriptive "official" grammar and the colloquial varieties of a language. I want to know what the "official" grammar says, if there is any. My portuguese grammar tells me that the indirect objective should be put after the verb except in negative sentences, in questions introduced by an interrogative, after conjunctions like "que" and "como",and in the cases where they follow some adverbs as "ainda", "tudo", etc.
The sentence "Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro." falls in none of the case mentioned above, so I am interested in knowing what the "official" grammar would say. Qrfqr 20:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The pronoun "-vos" is not employed just regionally. It is commonly used everywhere, at least in the whole of Portugal, I assure.
I'm going to withdraw barranquenho from the Derived Languages section. According to Lindley Cintra, a renouned authority on Portuguese dialects:
"Nova proposta de classificação dos dialectos galego-portugueses", p.5. See link in article. FilipeS 14:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I have asked for a citation for the following:
To be clear, the part that should be confirmed is whether Sardinian indeed has a personal infinitive. FilipeS 19:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The Romance Languages Harris and Vincent pp. 332-333 "The survival of the Latin imperfect subjunctive paradigm (used primarily as an inflected form of the infinitive) is often cited as a distinctive feature of Sardinian, though it has become obsolete in many dialects."
note that the portuguese personal infinitive has exactly the same latin origin. Benwing 06:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
pp. 342-343 says that the imperfect subjunctive is only a subjunctive with the verbs áere and éssere. in other cases it is a personal infinitive; "keljo de bi vénneret isse" (I want him to come); "imbetses de kantares tue, ..." (instead of you singing, ...); "prima de andarémus, kántanos una kaθone" (before we go, sing us a song, p. 344). p. 344: "non keljo de mi madzare" (I do not want you/them/anyone to hit me) is possible in "favorable pragmatic circumstances" but "non keljo de mi madzares/madzaren" etc. is often preferred.
"kánto, kántas, kántat, kantámus, kantátes, kántan" (p. 332); looks amazingly like latin, no?
Benwing 07:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I've heard that the Portuguese language is being reformed. Is this true? Apparently, this is happening because of the conflicts different portuguese nations are having communicating with each other. The language will apparently be spoken like the Brazilian dialect but with a gramatical structure of Euro. portuguese, along with tons upon tons of words derived from Greek, Arabic and Latin. Is any of this true?
No Official Grammar? I don't understand this, can you clarify? -K
In general terms, I guess we could say Brazilian Portuguese dialects may be grouped into 4 distinct classes as far as their choice of second-person subject and object pronouns is concerned. The 4 classes are as follows:
Incidentally, the multiplicity of categories above helps to explain why there are actually 3 different ways to say "I love you" in Brazil, namely: Eu te amo ; Eu amo você; or Eu lhe amo. Note also that, unlike in Portugal, the use of você as a direct object (replacing - (l)o or - (l)a) and the use of para você as an indirect object (instead of para si) are accepted as correct in standard written BP (see e.g. Celso Ferreira da Cunha's Nova Gramática do Português Contemporâneo). In particular, in standard BP, para si can only be used when si functions as a 3rd person reflexive pronoun. In all other cases, it is considered wrong in Brazil to say para si or consigo in lieu of para você or com você. Mbruno 13:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Further discussion taken to Talk: Portuguese pronouns FilipeS 15:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I found an image of flags of countries who's national language is Portuguese. I am not sure where to put it though so I'll leave it here for you guys to decide.-- Jersey Devil 02:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I think its a great idea.
I think this could be moved to Orthography of Portuguese, and a smaller note left here. Any objections?... FilipeS 21:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who wants to learn more about the orthographies of Portuguese can click on the link to the specialized article. FilipeS 12:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The word "ilha" is not equivalent to the English word "slum". "Ilha" is an aggregate of small houses, inside the city. These "Ilhas" were planned and built in the 19th century to accomodate migrant workers during the industrial revolution. Although these houses are small, they have little similarities to brazilian "favelas". They have running water, electricity and sewage systems. The correct term for "slum" is "bairro de lata".
It just so happens that I've heard "ilha" with that kind of meaning for the first time in my life. The person who was speaking to me used that word as meaning "a group of degraded apartment buildings".-- Húsönd 03:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The origin of this slang word is controversial. Some linguists state that this word comes from American slang "buzz off". Others consider that this word comes from "vazar" an expression meaning "put the cards on the table" (from a card game).
The Ethnologue report for Portuguese mentions only 177 million first-language speakers of Portuguese worldwide. Considering that those figures are from the 1990s and correcting them for natural population growth, we would arrive at an updated figure of probably between 190 and 200 million native Lusophones. In any case, that is far less than the fictional 220 million mentioned in the Wikipedia article ! Overstating the number of speakers of a given language is a common occurrence in the Wikipedia (we've seen it before e.g. in the French, Spanish, English and Irish articles, just to name a few). However, if we intend Wikipedia to be a serious and reliable source of information, we must make sure it meets the appropriate criteria for accuracy. I suggest we change the 220-million estimate in the Portuguese language article to something like "slightly less than 200 million." 200.177.40.211 13:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you should include Galician in the table with the number of speakers of Portuguese. Officially, it's a separate language.
Also, it would be nice if there were data on how many speakers have Portuguese as their "first" languages, and how many speak Portuguese but are multilingual. FilipeS
From what you wrote above I inferred that you had contributed to the table in Geographic distribution of Portuguese. But now that I think better, even if you did contribute to the article, that doesn't mean you had anything to do with including Galician in the table. My apologies. FilipeS
I hope the journalist didn't get her numbers from Wikipedia, then! LOL. ;-)
I've given this some thought, and, considering that Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability first and foremost, it may be better to give outdated but verified numbers (indicating, between parenthesis, the date when the estimate was made), than to make one's personal estimates. FilipeS
The article mentions 9 vowels for EP (7 in BP), with 5 nasal allophones. However, judging from the contrast between e.g. "canto" and "cato" (from the verb "catar"), "lã" and "lá", or "senta" (from the verb "sentar") and "seta" (noun), I'd say the nasal vowels are not mere allophones, but phonemes in their own right (at least to my layman's Brazilian ears, the words above differ from each other by one vowel sound only and obviously have different semantic values). 200.177.8.83 23:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article transcribes the BP pronunciation of the word "português" as [poɾtu'gejs]. That may be true in most of Brazil, but I believe there should be also a reference to the alternative (mostly carioca) pronunciation [poɾtu'gejʃ]. 200.177.41.12 12:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Brazil has not a historical capital, or a main city - like most countries in the world has - whose dialect is made a standart for the country's language. We have two big cities - São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro - that has two very distinct dialects and a capital - Brasilia - that has a melted dialect, recently formed.
So, there's not a thing we may call Standart Brazilian, it is topic for much discussion and ABL doesn't help.
I'm suggesting to accept in Wikipedia Jornal Nacional (TV Globo news) accent, as a most clearful and acceptable either for people from SP and people from RJ.
Other possibility is not to accept a single dilect, but try to discuss phoneme by phoneme.
Any more suggestions? José San Martin 23:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
they often pronunciate: poɾtu'ges (there's a dominance of São Paulo's dialect). There is no such thing as a Brazilian standard, it is your creation, Peter. But during early 20th century that was defined to be Rio's, but the international agreements define no standard differentiation, in order to maintain the unity of the language. And BTW, it is not that different, just because people pronunciate a sound somewhat differently doesnt make it a lot different. Besides Rio's dialect is more popular in soap operas. About standard Portuguese pronunciation I prefer not to discuss that issue now, because I think you are doing a nice job, so I don't want to spoil nothing and the problem is not serious. over and out. ;) -- Pedro 15:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
A seção "Dialects - Brazil" e o que ela insinua está completamente errada. A língua portuguesa no Brasil não possui nenhum dialeto: todos falam e escrevem o mesmo português. Desde quando gírias e sotaque de voz são suficientes para definir e diferenciar dialetos? Dialeto carioca, dialeto paulista, dialeto nordestino.. isso me soa Wikipedia:Original research pois nas universidades de Letras (inclusive na USP) não se leciona tamanha baboseira.
No Brasil, como em qualquer outro país, HÁ dialectos, porque o português, como qualquer outra língua apresenta variação. Essa variação pode ser fonética ou fonológica (aquilo a que normalmente se chama "sotaque" e que envolve fenómenos que vão da acentuação à entoação a fonemas diferentes), pode ser lexical (ou seja, uso de diferentes palavras, aquilo a que chama "gírias"),pode ser morfológica e sintáctica ou pode ser tudo isto ao mesmo tempo. Para além das variedades regionais (os chamados "dialectos") há no Brazil pelo menos duas grandes variedades: o português padrão do Brasil e o português vernáculo do Brasil. Uma coisa é dizer que isto não é ensinado nas escolas, o que é verdade, essencialmente por razões políticas; outra coisa é dizer que o português do Brasil não apresenta variedades, pois isto não só é mentira, como resulta de uma falta de informação atroz. Tão atroz que ignora mais de 100 anos de literatura linguística que prova precisamente a existência destas variedades.
I saw that the example "Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro." is tagged as a regional usage. Is "Nós traremos-vos o vosso ceptro." the "correct one" in official grammar? Obrigado! Qrfqr 19:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
BTW I have read the discussion in ARCHIVE3. I know that there always are some differences between a prescriptive "official" grammar and the colloquial varieties of a language. I want to know what the "official" grammar says, if there is any. My portuguese grammar tells me that the indirect objective should be put after the verb except in negative sentences, in questions introduced by an interrogative, after conjunctions like "que" and "como",and in the cases where they follow some adverbs as "ainda", "tudo", etc.
The sentence "Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro." falls in none of the case mentioned above, so I am interested in knowing what the "official" grammar would say. Qrfqr 20:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The pronoun "-vos" is not employed just regionally. It is commonly used everywhere, at least in the whole of Portugal, I assure.
I'm going to withdraw barranquenho from the Derived Languages section. According to Lindley Cintra, a renouned authority on Portuguese dialects:
"Nova proposta de classificação dos dialectos galego-portugueses", p.5. See link in article. FilipeS 14:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I have asked for a citation for the following:
To be clear, the part that should be confirmed is whether Sardinian indeed has a personal infinitive. FilipeS 19:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The Romance Languages Harris and Vincent pp. 332-333 "The survival of the Latin imperfect subjunctive paradigm (used primarily as an inflected form of the infinitive) is often cited as a distinctive feature of Sardinian, though it has become obsolete in many dialects."
note that the portuguese personal infinitive has exactly the same latin origin. Benwing 06:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
pp. 342-343 says that the imperfect subjunctive is only a subjunctive with the verbs áere and éssere. in other cases it is a personal infinitive; "keljo de bi vénneret isse" (I want him to come); "imbetses de kantares tue, ..." (instead of you singing, ...); "prima de andarémus, kántanos una kaθone" (before we go, sing us a song, p. 344). p. 344: "non keljo de mi madzare" (I do not want you/them/anyone to hit me) is possible in "favorable pragmatic circumstances" but "non keljo de mi madzares/madzaren" etc. is often preferred.
"kánto, kántas, kántat, kantámus, kantátes, kántan" (p. 332); looks amazingly like latin, no?
Benwing 07:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I've heard that the Portuguese language is being reformed. Is this true? Apparently, this is happening because of the conflicts different portuguese nations are having communicating with each other. The language will apparently be spoken like the Brazilian dialect but with a gramatical structure of Euro. portuguese, along with tons upon tons of words derived from Greek, Arabic and Latin. Is any of this true?
No Official Grammar? I don't understand this, can you clarify? -K
In general terms, I guess we could say Brazilian Portuguese dialects may be grouped into 4 distinct classes as far as their choice of second-person subject and object pronouns is concerned. The 4 classes are as follows:
Incidentally, the multiplicity of categories above helps to explain why there are actually 3 different ways to say "I love you" in Brazil, namely: Eu te amo ; Eu amo você; or Eu lhe amo. Note also that, unlike in Portugal, the use of você as a direct object (replacing - (l)o or - (l)a) and the use of para você as an indirect object (instead of para si) are accepted as correct in standard written BP (see e.g. Celso Ferreira da Cunha's Nova Gramática do Português Contemporâneo). In particular, in standard BP, para si can only be used when si functions as a 3rd person reflexive pronoun. In all other cases, it is considered wrong in Brazil to say para si or consigo in lieu of para você or com você. Mbruno 13:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Further discussion taken to Talk: Portuguese pronouns FilipeS 15:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I found an image of flags of countries who's national language is Portuguese. I am not sure where to put it though so I'll leave it here for you guys to decide.-- Jersey Devil 02:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I think its a great idea.
I think this could be moved to Orthography of Portuguese, and a smaller note left here. Any objections?... FilipeS 21:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who wants to learn more about the orthographies of Portuguese can click on the link to the specialized article. FilipeS 12:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The word "ilha" is not equivalent to the English word "slum". "Ilha" is an aggregate of small houses, inside the city. These "Ilhas" were planned and built in the 19th century to accomodate migrant workers during the industrial revolution. Although these houses are small, they have little similarities to brazilian "favelas". They have running water, electricity and sewage systems. The correct term for "slum" is "bairro de lata".
It just so happens that I've heard "ilha" with that kind of meaning for the first time in my life. The person who was speaking to me used that word as meaning "a group of degraded apartment buildings".-- Húsönd 03:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The origin of this slang word is controversial. Some linguists state that this word comes from American slang "buzz off". Others consider that this word comes from "vazar" an expression meaning "put the cards on the table" (from a card game).
The Ethnologue report for Portuguese mentions only 177 million first-language speakers of Portuguese worldwide. Considering that those figures are from the 1990s and correcting them for natural population growth, we would arrive at an updated figure of probably between 190 and 200 million native Lusophones. In any case, that is far less than the fictional 220 million mentioned in the Wikipedia article ! Overstating the number of speakers of a given language is a common occurrence in the Wikipedia (we've seen it before e.g. in the French, Spanish, English and Irish articles, just to name a few). However, if we intend Wikipedia to be a serious and reliable source of information, we must make sure it meets the appropriate criteria for accuracy. I suggest we change the 220-million estimate in the Portuguese language article to something like "slightly less than 200 million." 200.177.40.211 13:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you should include Galician in the table with the number of speakers of Portuguese. Officially, it's a separate language.
Also, it would be nice if there were data on how many speakers have Portuguese as their "first" languages, and how many speak Portuguese but are multilingual. FilipeS
From what you wrote above I inferred that you had contributed to the table in Geographic distribution of Portuguese. But now that I think better, even if you did contribute to the article, that doesn't mean you had anything to do with including Galician in the table. My apologies. FilipeS
I hope the journalist didn't get her numbers from Wikipedia, then! LOL. ;-)
I've given this some thought, and, considering that Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability first and foremost, it may be better to give outdated but verified numbers (indicating, between parenthesis, the date when the estimate was made), than to make one's personal estimates. FilipeS
The article mentions 9 vowels for EP (7 in BP), with 5 nasal allophones. However, judging from the contrast between e.g. "canto" and "cato" (from the verb "catar"), "lã" and "lá", or "senta" (from the verb "sentar") and "seta" (noun), I'd say the nasal vowels are not mere allophones, but phonemes in their own right (at least to my layman's Brazilian ears, the words above differ from each other by one vowel sound only and obviously have different semantic values). 200.177.8.83 23:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article transcribes the BP pronunciation of the word "português" as [poɾtu'gejs]. That may be true in most of Brazil, but I believe there should be also a reference to the alternative (mostly carioca) pronunciation [poɾtu'gejʃ]. 200.177.41.12 12:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)