![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There has been some confusion on what were the exact procedures defined in Circular 14. The complete text, for those that can read Portuguese can be found here [ [1]] This dispatch allowed consuls to continue granting Portuguese transit visas, but established that in the case of "Foreigners of indefinite or contested nationality, the Stateless, Russian Citizens, Holders of a Nansen passport, or Jews expelled from their countries and those alleging to embark from a Portuguese port without a consular visa for their country of destination, or air or sea tickets, or an Embarkation Guarantee from the respective companies, the consuls needed to ask permission in advance of the Foreign Ministry head office in Lisbon. The text also says that the consuls will, however, be very careful not to hinder the arrival in Lisbon, of the passengers that are destined to other countries and especially to the transatlantic air routes or to the east. This can be checked in the primary source but also in secondary sources such as Tom Gallagher's recent biography of Salazar. (Page 126) J Pratas ( talk) 17:18, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
There is a statement in the article saying that "Portugal had been influenced by contemporary dictatorial regimes, including Nazi Germany." This is not backed up by the major biographies on Salazar (Kay, Meneses, Gallagher)
As Milgram says "Portugal’s marginality as a welcome country for immigrants was such that the Portuguese were not even invited to take part in Evian Conference in July 1938". Jews in general were not interested in moving to Portugal on a permanent basis, they became interested in Portugal as an escape route because other countries started to close their borders. And when the US in June 1940 tightened their policies for granting visas this created a problem for all those wanting to use Portugal as a transit country because it became virtually impossible to get an American visa, leaving visas to Latin America as the only legal way out of Europe. In addition, all those that already had visas to the US and were allowed to enter Portugal because they had those visas, got stuck in Portugal and had to be moved to permanent residence villages (Caldas da Rainha, Ericeira, Curia, etc..). J Pratas ( talk) 21:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Just a curiosity to better understand Salazar's thinking on Britain's policies. There is a very interesting telegram from Armindo Monteiro, the Portuguese Ambassador in London, to Salazar, asking him to grant Visas of Poles of "pure race" (meaning non-Jews). Salazar replied that those are exactly the ones we don't want. This telegrams have been used by several historians to show that their was no prejudice against jews from Salazar. On top Salazar also mentioned that for him it was hard to understand w why Britain was closing the borders to Poles if it had started a war to defend Poland. It is important to understand the context J Pratas ( talk) 21:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
J Pratas ( talk) 19:26, 11 April 2021 (UTC)"Portugal did not attract Jewish immigrants from Germany and Eastern Europe in the 1930s. Western Europe, the United States, South America, and even Palestine under the British Mandate were more attractive than Portugal in economic terms, professional advantages, capacity for absorption, and possibilities for socio-cultural adaptation. "
— Milgram 1999)
The most recent biography on Salazar, when it comes to Holocaust, starts with the following: " The majority of Jews who crossed the Franco-Spanish frontier in the early summer of 1940 to eventually reach Portugal did so undoubtedly owing to his [Sousa Mendes] intervention on their behalf. But it is perhaps equally fair to contend that it was Portugal’s flinty leader who employed state power to save a much greater number of Jews and other refugees. At the outset of the war, he permitted 200 Gibraltar Jews, along with the rest of the British territory’s civilian population, to be resettled on the island of Madeira. In June 1940 he gave his approval for the Europe office of HIAS-HICEM, the main Jewish relief organisation, to be transferred from Paris to Lisbon. ". All this events according to the author are connected and are important to understand the context. J Pratas ( talk) 20:26, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I think that this section should be clarified or removed. As it stands, it could be read as one of two things. Either A: That Portugal was under more allied influence then Spain was, or B: That Portugal had closer relationships with the Allied Powers then it did to Spain. Either way, it should be clarified. Does anyone know which was the initial editor's intent? If we cannot figure it out, I recommend we remove the phrase rather then potentally confuse readers.
Thanks TheAmericanWarlord ( talk) 16:59, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
So, supposedly, Portugal got gold from Nazi Germany during the WW2, according to https://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/10/world/nazi-gold-and-portugal-s-murky-role.html, written by Marlise Simons. Who is she? This article is not accessible unless we pay a subscription. Any alternative? What's the proof of this claim, or are we just hypothesizing and so trying to write hypothesized history?
Brigade Piron More than 3 weeks ago I have replaced some text on the apparentlly uncontroversial fact that Salazar considered Nazi racial ideology to be inconsistent with Catholicism and Portuguese nationalism was not explicitly grounded in race. I thought, as some historians also did (e.g. Pimentel, Gallagher, etc.) that it is relevant that not only Salazar thought that way, furthermore he published a book and he also sent a telegram to his Ambassador in Berlin. He took a stand, which is something different than just a thought. After 3 weeks this editing was reverted, without using the talk page and on the grounds of "apparently for POV reasons" and also "We do not cite WP:PRIMARY like Dez anos de politica externa". I fail to see any POV here because the content is well sourced and sourced from two different reputed historians. Why shoud we deny the reader the possibility to know the important fact that Salazar published a book? Or that he gave specific instructions to the portuguese legation in Berlin? Where is the POV here? As to the use of primary sources....I guess we could keep them so that a more educated user knows where to find them, but we can also live without them, because we have plenty of reliabel secondary sources.
Last but not least, I had corrected that the portuguese jewish communniyt was small but not less that 1,000 as the article is stating. According to the website of the community the size was about 3,000 and was integrated in society, many of them practicing liberal professions such as medicine and law. J Pratas ( talk) 12:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
'Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves.'This is, in fact, a foundational principle of Wikipedia and closely tied to WP:NOR. In the case of Dez anos de politica externa, we are dealing with a curated selection of archival documents produced (at least for most of its volumes) by the Salazar regime in the post-war years. There are obvious difficulties for using it to form an objective view of Portuguese policy during the period - especially in a contentious historical subject like the Holocaust.
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There has been some confusion on what were the exact procedures defined in Circular 14. The complete text, for those that can read Portuguese can be found here [ [1]] This dispatch allowed consuls to continue granting Portuguese transit visas, but established that in the case of "Foreigners of indefinite or contested nationality, the Stateless, Russian Citizens, Holders of a Nansen passport, or Jews expelled from their countries and those alleging to embark from a Portuguese port without a consular visa for their country of destination, or air or sea tickets, or an Embarkation Guarantee from the respective companies, the consuls needed to ask permission in advance of the Foreign Ministry head office in Lisbon. The text also says that the consuls will, however, be very careful not to hinder the arrival in Lisbon, of the passengers that are destined to other countries and especially to the transatlantic air routes or to the east. This can be checked in the primary source but also in secondary sources such as Tom Gallagher's recent biography of Salazar. (Page 126) J Pratas ( talk) 17:18, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
There is a statement in the article saying that "Portugal had been influenced by contemporary dictatorial regimes, including Nazi Germany." This is not backed up by the major biographies on Salazar (Kay, Meneses, Gallagher)
As Milgram says "Portugal’s marginality as a welcome country for immigrants was such that the Portuguese were not even invited to take part in Evian Conference in July 1938". Jews in general were not interested in moving to Portugal on a permanent basis, they became interested in Portugal as an escape route because other countries started to close their borders. And when the US in June 1940 tightened their policies for granting visas this created a problem for all those wanting to use Portugal as a transit country because it became virtually impossible to get an American visa, leaving visas to Latin America as the only legal way out of Europe. In addition, all those that already had visas to the US and were allowed to enter Portugal because they had those visas, got stuck in Portugal and had to be moved to permanent residence villages (Caldas da Rainha, Ericeira, Curia, etc..). J Pratas ( talk) 21:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Just a curiosity to better understand Salazar's thinking on Britain's policies. There is a very interesting telegram from Armindo Monteiro, the Portuguese Ambassador in London, to Salazar, asking him to grant Visas of Poles of "pure race" (meaning non-Jews). Salazar replied that those are exactly the ones we don't want. This telegrams have been used by several historians to show that their was no prejudice against jews from Salazar. On top Salazar also mentioned that for him it was hard to understand w why Britain was closing the borders to Poles if it had started a war to defend Poland. It is important to understand the context J Pratas ( talk) 21:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
J Pratas ( talk) 19:26, 11 April 2021 (UTC)"Portugal did not attract Jewish immigrants from Germany and Eastern Europe in the 1930s. Western Europe, the United States, South America, and even Palestine under the British Mandate were more attractive than Portugal in economic terms, professional advantages, capacity for absorption, and possibilities for socio-cultural adaptation. "
— Milgram 1999)
The most recent biography on Salazar, when it comes to Holocaust, starts with the following: " The majority of Jews who crossed the Franco-Spanish frontier in the early summer of 1940 to eventually reach Portugal did so undoubtedly owing to his [Sousa Mendes] intervention on their behalf. But it is perhaps equally fair to contend that it was Portugal’s flinty leader who employed state power to save a much greater number of Jews and other refugees. At the outset of the war, he permitted 200 Gibraltar Jews, along with the rest of the British territory’s civilian population, to be resettled on the island of Madeira. In June 1940 he gave his approval for the Europe office of HIAS-HICEM, the main Jewish relief organisation, to be transferred from Paris to Lisbon. ". All this events according to the author are connected and are important to understand the context. J Pratas ( talk) 20:26, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I think that this section should be clarified or removed. As it stands, it could be read as one of two things. Either A: That Portugal was under more allied influence then Spain was, or B: That Portugal had closer relationships with the Allied Powers then it did to Spain. Either way, it should be clarified. Does anyone know which was the initial editor's intent? If we cannot figure it out, I recommend we remove the phrase rather then potentally confuse readers.
Thanks TheAmericanWarlord ( talk) 16:59, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
So, supposedly, Portugal got gold from Nazi Germany during the WW2, according to https://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/10/world/nazi-gold-and-portugal-s-murky-role.html, written by Marlise Simons. Who is she? This article is not accessible unless we pay a subscription. Any alternative? What's the proof of this claim, or are we just hypothesizing and so trying to write hypothesized history?
Brigade Piron More than 3 weeks ago I have replaced some text on the apparentlly uncontroversial fact that Salazar considered Nazi racial ideology to be inconsistent with Catholicism and Portuguese nationalism was not explicitly grounded in race. I thought, as some historians also did (e.g. Pimentel, Gallagher, etc.) that it is relevant that not only Salazar thought that way, furthermore he published a book and he also sent a telegram to his Ambassador in Berlin. He took a stand, which is something different than just a thought. After 3 weeks this editing was reverted, without using the talk page and on the grounds of "apparently for POV reasons" and also "We do not cite WP:PRIMARY like Dez anos de politica externa". I fail to see any POV here because the content is well sourced and sourced from two different reputed historians. Why shoud we deny the reader the possibility to know the important fact that Salazar published a book? Or that he gave specific instructions to the portuguese legation in Berlin? Where is the POV here? As to the use of primary sources....I guess we could keep them so that a more educated user knows where to find them, but we can also live without them, because we have plenty of reliabel secondary sources.
Last but not least, I had corrected that the portuguese jewish communniyt was small but not less that 1,000 as the article is stating. According to the website of the community the size was about 3,000 and was integrated in society, many of them practicing liberal professions such as medicine and law. J Pratas ( talk) 12:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
'Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves.'This is, in fact, a foundational principle of Wikipedia and closely tied to WP:NOR. In the case of Dez anos de politica externa, we are dealing with a curated selection of archival documents produced (at least for most of its volumes) by the Salazar regime in the post-war years. There are obvious difficulties for using it to form an objective view of Portuguese policy during the period - especially in a contentious historical subject like the Holocaust.