This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On
January 1 an anonymous editor added the bulk of this article's present content, which is cited dubiously to say the least, and the accounts of the club's legal situation run contrary to what I've found dredging Factiva for cites to
Port Adelaide Football Club. One of his citations ("AFL 2005 page 214") seems to be untraceable, the other (PAFC annual report) unclear and certainly unobtainable online. I've put the {{disputed}} tag on here until I can get out to the library and check out the relevant documentation. ~
J.
K.
07:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
As I read it, this article contradicts the Port Adelaide Football Club article as to the history of the club and in particular the 1870 start date. In fact it doesn't even mention the year PAFC joined the AFL and the consequences for the SANFL team. Comments? Fat Red 01:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Image:PortMagpies.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 08:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:WoodvilleDesign.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Everything 1870-1996 is covered, better, at Port Adelaide Football Club. This page should concentrate on the PAMFC post-1996 - without ignoring 1870-1996 of course. I'm not trying to rewrite history here, I just know when two pages start covering the same ground the work of editing increases exponentially. Plus you get two different "camps", two versions of history according to the allegiences of the editors. Carn Port! 202.7.183.131 ( talk) 06:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I always thought that the Power was created in 1995/6 for the 97 AFL season, and wasn't a re-imagined version of the SANFL team, which I thought is officially the same team it was 20 years ago. Can evidence be shown here to settle this matter, as 99% of people view the Power as a different entity to the Magpies, and the Magpies of this year to be the same club as the Magpies of the 1900's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.183.131 ( talk) 08:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This history of the two clubs as written on sites such as this is a perfect example of "Wikiality" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isfckingevil ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There is this incorrect and falsfied attempt to discredit the PAMFC as a fake club, or newly established club. This article was revised to reflect a more unbiased and factual account of the PAMFC. G.g. ( talk) 12:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997, after the original Port Adelaide Football Club enterd the AFL. Port Adelaide Football Club are the original Magpies but have change it to the Power since entering the AFL and were etablsihed in 1870. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club are a revised team of the original team. - GuineaPigWarrior 11:45 30 June, 2010
Link: http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was etablished in 1997 after the original Port Adelaide Football Club who were established in 1870 went into the AFL. Their two different clubs but both Magpies so ive put both their history together with it showing PAFC and PAMFC. Port Adelaide Football Club article already has their SANFL history on it so ive put Port Adelaide Football section up to top to show the reader their past before Port Adelaide Magpies. - GuineaPigWarrior 10:05, 13 July, 2010.
I think ive explained myself really well and that the website isn't totally right. Who knows who could have written that. And with this Holden thing, they were just "renaming" there bussiness, Port made "another" club to continue there run in the SANFL because the original Port went in the AFL. DO YOU GET IT NOW? GW!
That is a hypocritically view, Ive tried to tell you, you won't listen. And don't tell me I'm wrong, on the link it says it was established when Port went into the AFL but share the history in the SANFL. GW!
Well I believe thats a personal view. I do not at all "own this article". I would love alot of people to make this article bigger. But I think you don't understand the differents between Port Adelaide Football Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1870-1996/Port Adelaide Power 1997-) to Port Adelaide Magpies Fooball Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1997-). GW!
I'm going to put this forward for WP:DISPUTE as even though we have a majority of editors not wanting this change, you insist on it. We're never going to agree on this. Sequal1 ( talk) 04:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Well look at the article now, I changed it to make us both happy. GW!
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997. The original Port Adelaide Football Club was established in 1870. And by the way, I do not care what Maggies1870 thinks. We both know what he wants. If you had read the link I gave you. Port Adelaide Mapgies Football Club was established after Port Adelaide Football went in the AFL. Which was 1997. GW!
"In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc". with "both" Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."
They say "both clubs" meaning 2 clubs. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club continued Port Adelaide in the SANFL when Port Adelaide went in the AFL in 1997. GW!
I don't undestand you. I'm not going to write this out again cause i'd just be repeating myself. GW!
Look, read this http://www.portmagpies.com.au/news.php?news_id=539 go down to view point, and it is said they spilt them into "two" clubs in 1997. The original Port Adelaide was established in 1870. This is the new Port Adelaide Magpies. For example, Viacom closed down in 2005 and started a spin-off company in 2006 with the same name. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, is a spin-off club of the original Port Adelaide Football Club but the original Port didn't close down. Now do you get me? GW!
Actually, I'm right with my original edit with this article. The original Magpies were Port Adelaide Football Club. And they already have a section on the Magpies. This article is about the new formed Magpies. Please understand this because there not the same clubs. GW!
I can't understand your logic, I have tried to tell you the differents bewteen the two teams and your being starborn about it. GW!
I just gave you a link and explained it for 3 hours now, I have given you plenty enough proof. I don't understand why you can't see that their two different clubs. GW!
Brilliant. GW!
After having a proper read through this article this morning, even though I don't agree with it all, it ticks most of the boxes I used to have issues with. I can't see myself making any major changes when this gets un-protected. Sequal1 ( talk) 23:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Here is the registration details for Port Adelaide Football Club [1]. It was originally called "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED", but changed it's name to "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED". No date is available on the free entry for when they changed their name, but I guess (yes this is a guess with no evidence to back it up) that it was in 1997 when they entered the AFL.
And here they are for the Magpies [2]
Unfortunately, due to the type of company the Magpies are, their registration details don't give you any info.
But, the main thing that I am getting at here is, the company that is playing as Power in the AFL was Registered on the 29/03/1995.
This implies that the company that played in the SANFL in 1996 is definitely not the same company that played in the AFL in 1997, unless obviously, the team that played in the SANFL in 1996 was "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED" (please note the "A.F.L" part of the name).
So, this is the bit when I go back to the whole founded in 1870 and not 1997 argument.
There is no definitive proof that the Magpies were founded in 1870, or if in fact it was power that was founded in 1870, but according to a government website (www.asic.gov.au), the current company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995.
My vote is to change the Founded date back to 1870. Sequal1 ( talk) 11:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the original Port Adelaide was founded in 1870, now known as "the Power" you are not listning. I am sick and tired of this. This is the "new" Port Adelaide Magpies. The old one are now the "power". Port Adelaide Football Club have a section on the Magpies which goes from 1870 to 1996. Thats when they enterd the AFL. They had to make a new club to keep Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL. So they established Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club in 1997. GW!
In response to the 3O request, I'll say the following. I can't find any RS on the issue, but what little I have found tends to back User:Sequal1's understanding. The ultimate point here is that we don't have definitive sources to back either contention, and therefore our wording should reflect only what is known for certain. I think this issue can be resolved provisionally with judicious wording that is sufficiently elaborative. A statement like:
The current Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club has existed in its present structure since joining the SANFL in 1997. Prior to this event, a Port Adelaide Football club with a Magpies (Crows??) moniker had existed since its creation in 1890. The claim to the heritage from 1890 to 1997 is said to be shared between the current Magpies team and a club in the AFL usually referred to as the "Power".
This type of statement does not definitively state whether the current club is a continuation of the former 1890 entity. This wording should suffice until a definitive source can be found -- a legal record, or something that describes the actual legal events that occurred ... whether 2 brand new teams were legally created, or whether the original club was renamed into the "Power" team, or whether the original club is the same legal entity that is in the SANFL, or whether there was an actual split of a single legal entity. I think after this is found, that the legal info added into the lead can be balanced with the information about stuff like the coincidences in uniform/team colors and pennant collection. Both are reasonable measures of "heritage," so this seems like a fair approach. BigK HeX ( talk) 07:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Port Adelaide Power were established in 1996 because, that is when the AFL granted them a AFL license which legally established them as an AFL team. GW!
Again, you never read what I write. I wrote they were "offically established as "AFL" club when they got their license". They were formed in 1995 but got their license in 1996 that offically established them as a AFL club. GW!
What? I never "wrote" that. I wrote, that the "Power" were established in 1996 because they couldn't use the Magpies since Collingwood were using it. GW!
I've worked for the club and trust me, it was formed in 1870, the real history wasn't really brought up too much because of the club's desire for many years to enter the AFL. Legally the AFL entity is the 'new' club but because we couldn't have the two clubs as one, this convoluted version of history sprung up. The Power claim an establishment date of 1870 because of the shared history of the PAFC up until the licence was granted. It's frustrating that people like Guinea Pig Warrior are allowed to re-write history as they please. - Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.230.245.20 ( talk) 05:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
No, there can't be "two" Port Adelaide clubs established in 1870. Port Adelaide Magpies are a revised club for the original Port Adelaide who are now known as the Power in the AFL. Do you inexperienced users get this now? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and I have looked at this link and this was for when Port Adelaide Football Club were trying to leave the SANFL and go in the AFL. And in 1996, they got their license so they were established as a AFL. In 1997, Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club were established to show hedridge to the Port Adelaide Football Club's Magpie mascot/nickname. So Port Adelaide Football Club were established in 1870 and didn't even play in a league until the late 1800's. This is for the "new" Magpies in the SANFL. Do you understand this now? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Here is the link claiming they were formed in 1997 but share history with the Port Adelaide Football Club http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/port_adel_magpies.htm - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Where? Your making this up. Port Adelaide Football Club were the only Port Adelaide club to be established in that year. And the Port Adelaide Football Club are the team who won 34 premierships in the SANFL and Port Adelaide Magpies won 2 since they were formed. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Right at the top:
Affiliated: SAFA 1877-1906; SAFL 1907-1926; SANFL 1927-present
Club Address: P.O. Box 2095, Port Adelaide, South Australia 5015
Home Ground: Alberton Oval, 9 Queen Street, Alberton
Formed: 1870
Colours: Black and white
Emblem: Magpies
Sequal1 ( talk) 13:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
That is for the original Port Adelaide football Club. It writes "In [1997] the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the [formation] of the [Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club], who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996." Now it writes it was kept in the SANFL with a revised club in 1997. Do you get it? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Sequal1 ( talk) 13:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
If you had been reading what I have written. They "share" it but the current Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997. How many times do I have to tell you. How could their be "two" Port clubs established in 1870? Port Adelaide Magpies means both of the clubs. Your logic is not right. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
They are written about the original Port Adelaide Football Club. Now can you explain why they would claim they were a established in 1997 as a revised team for the original Port Adelaide Football Club? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Have you read anything I have written? I have said they share the history. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club were formed as a new club to continue Port Adelaide. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion on when the team was founded, 1997 or 1870. Sequal1 ( talk) 12:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I've tried to provide a breakdown of our disagreement below, but the whole argument can be found above under the titles Talk:Port_Adelaide_Magpies_Football_Club#Confusion_with_PAFC_and_PAMFC and Talk:Port_Adelaide_Magpies_Football_Club#1870_Vs_1997.
There was a team founded in 1870 that played in the SANFL called "Port Adelaide Football Club". This teams nickname was Magpies.
In 1997, a team entered the AFL after the team "split". This team was also called "Port Adelaide Football Club", while a team called "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club" continued in the SANFL.
We can't agree on the formation date for the team, 1997 or 1870.
My opinion (and 139.230.245.20 and Maggies1870) is it should be 1870 and GuineaPigWarrior's is it should be 1997.
GuineaPigWarrior: ""In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc". with "both" Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996." They say "both clubs" meaning 2 clubs. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club continued Port Adelaide in the SANFL when Port Adelaide went in the AFL in 1997. GW!" [4]
Also: "I think ive explained myself really well and that the website isn't totally right. Who knows who could have written that. GW!" [5]
Sequal1: "you keep on pointing me towards [6], but no matter how many times I read it, it still doesn't say it they were founded in 1997. It says they split in 1997, but it doesn't say which way (as in the Magpies stayed the same and Power was the other company, or the other way round). In the same link it clearly states that they are celebrating 140 years." [7]
GuineaPigWarrior: "Here is the link claiming they were formed in 1997 but share history with the Port Adelaide Football Club http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/port_adel_magpies.htm" [8]
And: "That is for the original Port Adelaide football Club. It writes "In [1997] the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the [formation] of the [Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club], who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996." Now it writes it was kept in the SANFL with a revised club in 1997. Do you get it?" [9]
Sequal1: "That link clearly states formed 1870!!!!" [10] (4th line down)
And: "If that was written about the "original" club, why is it it goes on about "Premierships: SENIORS - <CUT>,1998 & 1999 (36 total)?? Going by your logic, the "original" club is in the AFL, so can't have got the premiership in 98 + 99. So this isn't about the "original" club, this is about the club as we know it, all it's history from 1870 to present." [11]
Sequal1: "Here is the registration details for Port Adelaide Football Club [12]. It was originally called "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED", but changed it's name to "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED". No date is available on the free entry for when they changed their name, but I guess (yes this is a guess with no evidence to back it up) that it was in 1997 when they entered the AFL. And here they are for the Magpies [13] Unfortunately, due to the type of company the Magpies are, their registration details don't give you any info. But, the main thing that I am getting at here is, the company that is playing as Power in the AFL was Registered on the 29/03/1995. This implies that the company that played in the SANFL in 1996 is definitely not the same company that played in the AFL in 1997, unless obviously, the team that played in the SANFL in 1996 was "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED" (please note the "A.F.L" part of the name). So, this is the bit when I go back to the whole founded in 1870 and not 1997 argument. There is no definitive proof that the Magpies were founded in 1870, or if in fact it was power that was founded in 1870, but according to a government website (www.asic.gov.au), the current company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995. My vote is to change the Founded date back to 1870." [14] (multiple edits)
GuineaPigWarrior: "Yes, the original Port Adelaide was founded in 1870, now known as "the Power" you are not listning. I am sick and tired of this. This is the "new" Port Adelaide Magpies. The old one are now the "power". Port Adelaide Football Club have a section on the Magpies which goes from 1870 to 1996. Thats when they enterd the AFL. They had to make a new club to keep Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL. So they established Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club in 1997."
[15]
And: "Actually, Port Adelaide Power were established in 1996 because, that is when the AFL granted them a AFL license which legally established them as an AFL team." [16]
And: "Again, you never read what I write. I wrote they were "offically established as "AFL" club when they got their license". They were formed in 1995 but got their license in 1996 that offically established them as a AFL club. GW!" [17]
Also mixed in we have a
IP comment and a
third opinion
Which is it? 1997 or 1870?
Sequal1 (
talk)
11:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The Port Adelaide Football Club was formed in 1870. The Port Adelaide Football Club won the second SA licence to join the AFL from the SANFL and started playing in that competition in 1997.
The Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was formed to replace the Port Adelaide Football Club in the SANFL: http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/tabid/6038/default.aspx?newsid=70842
I do wonder why the Port Magpies site in the SANFL state that they were established in 1870. The sooner they fold the clearer it will become, but at this stage wikipedia would need to follow info according to sources so I think the "shared history" thing should be fine for now. Eathb ( talk) 14:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Here, this person has ask an Port Adelaide Football Club offical facebook page of the question and the Port offical has written that the person is correct. The "Port Adelaide Magpies Football CLub" was established in 1997. Here is the link [18]. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 8:20, 10 September, 2010 (UTC)
The comment is from an Port Adelaide offical. Andrew Fuss Communications Officer and Andrew Weaver Media & Multimedia Producer from the Port Adelaide Football Club. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:20, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Blocking? What is that going to do? You are being biased. It is people like you who are making frastrated on wikipedia. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:30, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Change my ways? I have been suspended 3 times and I have the same mind on things as I have always had. Blocking me will not "change my ways". I want the articles not to be put with unneeded and false information and it's wikipedians like you who try to stop me. And please do not spy and be noisey on me. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:45, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
But I am not vandalising it either. So where both in the right. So by you logic we should just keep undoing each other which will result in us getting blocked. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:55, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Look, both the Port Adelaide Football Club and the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club's are two different clubs. That website is to keep the PAMFC alive in the SANFL and to try and merge it to the Port Adelaide Football Club. I think this prove that the PAMFC was established in 1997. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 17:05, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
This from a Port Adelaide media offical from the club. If you had read what I had written you would understand it's a Facebook user asking the question to an offical of the club. The facebook page is linked from their offical website. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 21:05, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
It is a reliable source when it's coming from a person who works in the media appartment at the club. I would say 3 but the club want to say 2 to keep them together which is what they want. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 21:30, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
The official view, is basically as per GPW. I have a copy of the AFL 1997 book and on page 114 under "Port Adelaide: A Brief History" by Greg Hobbs, it starts "Port Adelaide, the AFL's newest club traces its origins back to 1870 and over the decades has been South Australia's proudest football club". That is the official view, that the club formerly known as the Magpies moved into the AFL, and because the AFL/SANFL didn't want to have the AFL club lumbered with supporting (financially) a seconds team in the SANFL (which at the time, no other AFL club did in the WAFL/VFL) they created a new team in the SANFL, called the Port Adelaide Magpies.
Now, the confusing/unofficial aspect of this, is that only about 10 SANFL Magpies from 1996 ended up as Power players in 1997, most of them stayed in the SANFL with the Magpies. The Magpies jumpers didn't change. Their home ground didn't change. It was purely an administrative separation (and as ASIC wasn't around in 1870, ASIC searches are fairly meaningless). Therefore, you can imagine, that most supporters, especially those who stuck by the SANFL team, weren't at all pleased about "losing" their heritage or their premierships, so they "share" the history.
The Power claim that they have 1 AFL flag and 34 SAFA/SAFL/SANFL flags, the Magpies claim the 34 and any they've won since (have they won any?) So, the current Magpies club was officially created in 1997, but only on paper. It's essence and history was created in 1870. The Power was officially awarded the right to the next AFL licence on Dec 13, 1994, launched their name and colours in 1995, but only played from 1997, but officially were founded in 1870.
It all comes down to what is a Football Club? Is it:
Depending on what your answer is to that question, you'll get a different year. Now, stick all of that into an infobox!
You also have to realise that there is a LOT of POV involved from the "official sources". The AFL really don't want the SANFL flags included, but the Power do. The Magpies want them too. So much about encouraging people to follow a team is about the intangibles, the culture, the history, that it would be marketing suicide not to try to milk it all for what it's worth, hence you get conflicting messages and sometimes outright mistruths. Fremantle deliberately went the other way in the early years, avoiding a strong link with the Fremantle WAFL clubs, to try to "broadened their appeal" and I guess it although it didn't work at the beginning, but as the WAFL has declined further in terms of tribalism, it's become a good point - you don't have to be an Easts/Souths supporter to follow Freo. Not sure if Port has quite got their mix/alignment right, but that's a completely separate issue. The-Pope ( talk) 16:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
So why isn't the page unpretected and put in with this information instead of false one? GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 11:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
If Port Magpies were a new club then players like Ginever et al would've had to sign new contracts etc to play on for the club in 1997. It's a continuation of the same old club from 1870. What are you people going to say if the OnePAFC plan gets up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 11:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
You just defeated your own argument. The Magpies still have the same association number (check on the ASIC website) that they've had for many years prior to even the AFL existing in the national form. Even if your view point were correct, the date would be 1996 because that's when an AFL team would have needed to have been formed. Please stop making things up and actually contact the club for confirmation. You're a Freo supporter anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 00:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
From the club's website (from which a link is provided in this article)
"Since playing its first game in 1870, the club has gone on to win an Australian record of 36 SANFL premierships including six in a row and achieve the honour of being Champions of Australia on four occasions.
<snip>
In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc. with both Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."
The key word being CONTINUING. You haven't provided a verifiable link to your viewpoint. The Power may have tried to rewrite history back in 1997 by initially claming that the Magpies are a new club but it's not logical to have a continuing club with same logo colours etc being "new". This is being redressed with the One PAFC push. Stop vandalising this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I thought that my edits were a fair overview of the situation, which could be further developed in the next sections. I'm not interested in edit warring over it though, I've put my case, sort it out yourself. The-Pope ( talk) 04:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
There's no "technical date of formation" apart from 1870. If this "technical date" was 1997, then the associated clubs licence they have in their possession would be feature that date. It's much earlier than that. All I've done is provided links to the clubs official stance on their own history. You people have scratched and clutched at straws to support a viewpoint and you've quoted sources without providing verifiable links to them. Maggies1870 ( talk) 02:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
"since playing it's first game in 1870" isn't ambiguous at all: http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php So if you're saying 1996, why was everyone editing to say 1997? Maggies1870 ( talk) 08:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Stop making things up. The club was formed in 1870. 139.230.245.21 ( talk) 02:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
If the Magpies are a new club then they wouldn't have the same associated clubs registration number they've had for decades, which implies a continuation. Of course Port people went into the AFL, when you promote someone, you need more people to fill the vacant positions. Glenelg didn't suddenly become a new club formed in 1991 when the majority of their people went over to the Crows. It's a specious argument you've come up with. I'm getting sick of a 14 year old child deciding on what the history was when there were people where were not only alive at the time but involved in the process. It's this kind of thing that makes wikipedia a joke. Maggies1870 ( talk) 08:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?state_number=A1764&juris=5&hdtext=SA&srchsrc=1 The search is coming up as 2002 so that must've been a renewal date, but trust me, that's an old number. The Mapgies used to bend to the will of the Power, but in reality it was a "de-merger" and both clubs are reflecting that in their "re-merger" proposal. If we're using business establishment dates, then the Power are the new club but that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm arguing for people to stop saying that a club that has continued in the SANFL for decades to stop being referred to as a "new" club. It doesn't make logical sense for a club that had much of the same playing group one year with the same guernseys, home ground etc to be a labelled a "new" club the following year. Maggies1870 ( talk) 10:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Providing evidence is not accusing or threatening. I think it's unfair for you to accuse others of flaming when they provide evidence to counter your viewpoint. Maggies1870 ( talk) 12:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The establishment date was 1870. I'm not sure why a bunch of kids get to make up history and call it fact. Maggies1870 ( talk) 03:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6038/newsid/104588/default.aspx
Even the PAFC agree that the PAMFC shares 1870 as the date, note the word HISTORY:
"The Port Adelaide situation is unique in Australian football, as since 1997 there have been two Port Adelaide Football Clubs sharing the brand, history and heritage of PAFC but running as separate - and often competing - businesses. " Maggies1870 ( talk) 09:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I've reprotected the article; I think the reasons are self-evident. Clearly this is a complex and long-running dispute, both on and critically off-wiki. There certainly doesn't appear to be a 'right' or 'wrong' view that everyone, including Reliable sources can agree on, and the article needs to reflect that. You may find a request for comment helpful to try to thrash out a consensus. Ged UK 08:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
So what happens to both Port Adelaide articles now? 202.10.91.202 ( talk) 09:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
GPW will still argue that the Magpies were formed in 1997.
Maggies1870 (
talk)
12:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
You're the only one arguing they were not formed then. You show no sources backing your claim, and you only give personal opinion which wikipedia is against. Read the guidelines. Now when it changes back, I'm going to put "actual" refrences supporting me, and putting it to 1997. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 18:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The timeline should be from, 1997 to 2010. Then either make an section for SANFL Port Magpies which are now merged with PAFC. Or make another article like, Port Adelaide Football Club (SANFL). I'd rather just make a new article like other AFL clubs with lower league teams have their own articles (Collingwood, Geelong). GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 17:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
On the PAFC website about the merger: “Quite simply, we will now able to say:
Obviously the AFL Port wiki would need a "1997-present: SANFL Port Adelaide Magpies" or something about One PAFC section Eathb ( talk) 04:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Number 3 is completly false, the premierships do not merge. When Collingwood VFL team merged with Collingwood AFL team, they didn't merge the premierships. Nor did The Brisbane Lions, when they merged with Fitzroy. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 16:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
No the PAFC (AFL) itself has put out a statement saying that it will count the 1998 and 1999 premierships. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Powerstiffs ( talk • contribs) 07:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Link for Eathb's comment. GPW, it's Ports words, not his, as he said in his original post. (right at the bottom of the link) 110.174.161.234 ( talk) 10:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Those are the CEO, Mark Haysman claims, not Port Adelaide, please get your facts right. I believe he thinks since they merged, they also merge premierships, which isn't true, unless there is a good reliable source to prove me wrong. Because, The Brisbane Lions, do not claim to have won 11 premierships, because they merged with Fitzroy. Really, legally, this is an former different club, who have merged with another club. I do not think they have merge premierships, since they were there own club while winning 2 premierships, and now for the first time since 1996, are back together, known as Port Adelaide Football Club. Those 2 premierships are with PAMFC not PAFC. But if you can find the "best" most "reliable sources", please, I'd really like you to do this, rather than make up personal information based on a member of the clubs thoughts. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 20:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I am sick of you trying to be a troll. Wanting me to abuse you or something. It was published by them. Not legally stated. Stop wasting my time, and others, because you show no sources. I am sick of fighting, you just want to try and waste my time. I think you are just a troll, being sarcastic. Now if you want to discuss a "proper" agreement and resolution, I am happy to make it "2 premierships as Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club" rather than having it 36 premierships, since they were there own club between 1997 to 2010. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Richmond and the Bulldogs all have separate pages for both the AFL teams and the Reserves teams. I can't see how this page is any different, besides the fact that the Port Adelaide SANFL Football Club is a South Australian football club. Therefore, the Port Adelaide SANFL Football Club deserves its own article. Please don't blank or redirect this page without providing valid reasons why this page should be redirected. -- Alza08 ( talk) 10:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On
January 1 an anonymous editor added the bulk of this article's present content, which is cited dubiously to say the least, and the accounts of the club's legal situation run contrary to what I've found dredging Factiva for cites to
Port Adelaide Football Club. One of his citations ("AFL 2005 page 214") seems to be untraceable, the other (PAFC annual report) unclear and certainly unobtainable online. I've put the {{disputed}} tag on here until I can get out to the library and check out the relevant documentation. ~
J.
K.
07:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
As I read it, this article contradicts the Port Adelaide Football Club article as to the history of the club and in particular the 1870 start date. In fact it doesn't even mention the year PAFC joined the AFL and the consequences for the SANFL team. Comments? Fat Red 01:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Image:PortMagpies.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 08:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:WoodvilleDesign.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 05:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Everything 1870-1996 is covered, better, at Port Adelaide Football Club. This page should concentrate on the PAMFC post-1996 - without ignoring 1870-1996 of course. I'm not trying to rewrite history here, I just know when two pages start covering the same ground the work of editing increases exponentially. Plus you get two different "camps", two versions of history according to the allegiences of the editors. Carn Port! 202.7.183.131 ( talk) 06:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I always thought that the Power was created in 1995/6 for the 97 AFL season, and wasn't a re-imagined version of the SANFL team, which I thought is officially the same team it was 20 years ago. Can evidence be shown here to settle this matter, as 99% of people view the Power as a different entity to the Magpies, and the Magpies of this year to be the same club as the Magpies of the 1900's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.183.131 ( talk) 08:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This history of the two clubs as written on sites such as this is a perfect example of "Wikiality" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isfckingevil ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There is this incorrect and falsfied attempt to discredit the PAMFC as a fake club, or newly established club. This article was revised to reflect a more unbiased and factual account of the PAMFC. G.g. ( talk) 12:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997, after the original Port Adelaide Football Club enterd the AFL. Port Adelaide Football Club are the original Magpies but have change it to the Power since entering the AFL and were etablsihed in 1870. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club are a revised team of the original team. - GuineaPigWarrior 11:45 30 June, 2010
Link: http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was etablished in 1997 after the original Port Adelaide Football Club who were established in 1870 went into the AFL. Their two different clubs but both Magpies so ive put both their history together with it showing PAFC and PAMFC. Port Adelaide Football Club article already has their SANFL history on it so ive put Port Adelaide Football section up to top to show the reader their past before Port Adelaide Magpies. - GuineaPigWarrior 10:05, 13 July, 2010.
I think ive explained myself really well and that the website isn't totally right. Who knows who could have written that. And with this Holden thing, they were just "renaming" there bussiness, Port made "another" club to continue there run in the SANFL because the original Port went in the AFL. DO YOU GET IT NOW? GW!
That is a hypocritically view, Ive tried to tell you, you won't listen. And don't tell me I'm wrong, on the link it says it was established when Port went into the AFL but share the history in the SANFL. GW!
Well I believe thats a personal view. I do not at all "own this article". I would love alot of people to make this article bigger. But I think you don't understand the differents between Port Adelaide Football Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1870-1996/Port Adelaide Power 1997-) to Port Adelaide Magpies Fooball Club (Port Adelaide Magpies 1997-). GW!
I'm going to put this forward for WP:DISPUTE as even though we have a majority of editors not wanting this change, you insist on it. We're never going to agree on this. Sequal1 ( talk) 04:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Well look at the article now, I changed it to make us both happy. GW!
Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997. The original Port Adelaide Football Club was established in 1870. And by the way, I do not care what Maggies1870 thinks. We both know what he wants. If you had read the link I gave you. Port Adelaide Mapgies Football Club was established after Port Adelaide Football went in the AFL. Which was 1997. GW!
"In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc". with "both" Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."
They say "both clubs" meaning 2 clubs. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club continued Port Adelaide in the SANFL when Port Adelaide went in the AFL in 1997. GW!
I don't undestand you. I'm not going to write this out again cause i'd just be repeating myself. GW!
Look, read this http://www.portmagpies.com.au/news.php?news_id=539 go down to view point, and it is said they spilt them into "two" clubs in 1997. The original Port Adelaide was established in 1870. This is the new Port Adelaide Magpies. For example, Viacom closed down in 2005 and started a spin-off company in 2006 with the same name. Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, is a spin-off club of the original Port Adelaide Football Club but the original Port didn't close down. Now do you get me? GW!
Actually, I'm right with my original edit with this article. The original Magpies were Port Adelaide Football Club. And they already have a section on the Magpies. This article is about the new formed Magpies. Please understand this because there not the same clubs. GW!
I can't understand your logic, I have tried to tell you the differents bewteen the two teams and your being starborn about it. GW!
I just gave you a link and explained it for 3 hours now, I have given you plenty enough proof. I don't understand why you can't see that their two different clubs. GW!
Brilliant. GW!
After having a proper read through this article this morning, even though I don't agree with it all, it ticks most of the boxes I used to have issues with. I can't see myself making any major changes when this gets un-protected. Sequal1 ( talk) 23:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Here is the registration details for Port Adelaide Football Club [1]. It was originally called "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED", but changed it's name to "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED". No date is available on the free entry for when they changed their name, but I guess (yes this is a guess with no evidence to back it up) that it was in 1997 when they entered the AFL.
And here they are for the Magpies [2]
Unfortunately, due to the type of company the Magpies are, their registration details don't give you any info.
But, the main thing that I am getting at here is, the company that is playing as Power in the AFL was Registered on the 29/03/1995.
This implies that the company that played in the SANFL in 1996 is definitely not the same company that played in the AFL in 1997, unless obviously, the team that played in the SANFL in 1996 was "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED" (please note the "A.F.L" part of the name).
So, this is the bit when I go back to the whole founded in 1870 and not 1997 argument.
There is no definitive proof that the Magpies were founded in 1870, or if in fact it was power that was founded in 1870, but according to a government website (www.asic.gov.au), the current company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995.
My vote is to change the Founded date back to 1870. Sequal1 ( talk) 11:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the original Port Adelaide was founded in 1870, now known as "the Power" you are not listning. I am sick and tired of this. This is the "new" Port Adelaide Magpies. The old one are now the "power". Port Adelaide Football Club have a section on the Magpies which goes from 1870 to 1996. Thats when they enterd the AFL. They had to make a new club to keep Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL. So they established Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club in 1997. GW!
In response to the 3O request, I'll say the following. I can't find any RS on the issue, but what little I have found tends to back User:Sequal1's understanding. The ultimate point here is that we don't have definitive sources to back either contention, and therefore our wording should reflect only what is known for certain. I think this issue can be resolved provisionally with judicious wording that is sufficiently elaborative. A statement like:
The current Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club has existed in its present structure since joining the SANFL in 1997. Prior to this event, a Port Adelaide Football club with a Magpies (Crows??) moniker had existed since its creation in 1890. The claim to the heritage from 1890 to 1997 is said to be shared between the current Magpies team and a club in the AFL usually referred to as the "Power".
This type of statement does not definitively state whether the current club is a continuation of the former 1890 entity. This wording should suffice until a definitive source can be found -- a legal record, or something that describes the actual legal events that occurred ... whether 2 brand new teams were legally created, or whether the original club was renamed into the "Power" team, or whether the original club is the same legal entity that is in the SANFL, or whether there was an actual split of a single legal entity. I think after this is found, that the legal info added into the lead can be balanced with the information about stuff like the coincidences in uniform/team colors and pennant collection. Both are reasonable measures of "heritage," so this seems like a fair approach. BigK HeX ( talk) 07:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Port Adelaide Power were established in 1996 because, that is when the AFL granted them a AFL license which legally established them as an AFL team. GW!
Again, you never read what I write. I wrote they were "offically established as "AFL" club when they got their license". They were formed in 1995 but got their license in 1996 that offically established them as a AFL club. GW!
What? I never "wrote" that. I wrote, that the "Power" were established in 1996 because they couldn't use the Magpies since Collingwood were using it. GW!
I've worked for the club and trust me, it was formed in 1870, the real history wasn't really brought up too much because of the club's desire for many years to enter the AFL. Legally the AFL entity is the 'new' club but because we couldn't have the two clubs as one, this convoluted version of history sprung up. The Power claim an establishment date of 1870 because of the shared history of the PAFC up until the licence was granted. It's frustrating that people like Guinea Pig Warrior are allowed to re-write history as they please. - Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.230.245.20 ( talk) 05:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
No, there can't be "two" Port Adelaide clubs established in 1870. Port Adelaide Magpies are a revised club for the original Port Adelaide who are now known as the Power in the AFL. Do you inexperienced users get this now? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and I have looked at this link and this was for when Port Adelaide Football Club were trying to leave the SANFL and go in the AFL. And in 1996, they got their license so they were established as a AFL. In 1997, Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club were established to show hedridge to the Port Adelaide Football Club's Magpie mascot/nickname. So Port Adelaide Football Club were established in 1870 and didn't even play in a league until the late 1800's. This is for the "new" Magpies in the SANFL. Do you understand this now? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Here is the link claiming they were formed in 1997 but share history with the Port Adelaide Football Club http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/port_adel_magpies.htm - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Where? Your making this up. Port Adelaide Football Club were the only Port Adelaide club to be established in that year. And the Port Adelaide Football Club are the team who won 34 premierships in the SANFL and Port Adelaide Magpies won 2 since they were formed. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Right at the top:
Affiliated: SAFA 1877-1906; SAFL 1907-1926; SANFL 1927-present
Club Address: P.O. Box 2095, Port Adelaide, South Australia 5015
Home Ground: Alberton Oval, 9 Queen Street, Alberton
Formed: 1870
Colours: Black and white
Emblem: Magpies
Sequal1 ( talk) 13:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
That is for the original Port Adelaide football Club. It writes "In [1997] the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the [formation] of the [Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club], who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996." Now it writes it was kept in the SANFL with a revised club in 1997. Do you get it? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Sequal1 ( talk) 13:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
If you had been reading what I have written. They "share" it but the current Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was established in 1997. How many times do I have to tell you. How could their be "two" Port clubs established in 1870? Port Adelaide Magpies means both of the clubs. Your logic is not right. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
They are written about the original Port Adelaide Football Club. Now can you explain why they would claim they were a established in 1997 as a revised team for the original Port Adelaide Football Club? - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Have you read anything I have written? I have said they share the history. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club were formed as a new club to continue Port Adelaide. - GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion on when the team was founded, 1997 or 1870. Sequal1 ( talk) 12:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I've tried to provide a breakdown of our disagreement below, but the whole argument can be found above under the titles Talk:Port_Adelaide_Magpies_Football_Club#Confusion_with_PAFC_and_PAMFC and Talk:Port_Adelaide_Magpies_Football_Club#1870_Vs_1997.
There was a team founded in 1870 that played in the SANFL called "Port Adelaide Football Club". This teams nickname was Magpies.
In 1997, a team entered the AFL after the team "split". This team was also called "Port Adelaide Football Club", while a team called "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club" continued in the SANFL.
We can't agree on the formation date for the team, 1997 or 1870.
My opinion (and 139.230.245.20 and Maggies1870) is it should be 1870 and GuineaPigWarrior's is it should be 1997.
GuineaPigWarrior: ""In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the "Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc". with "both" Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996." They say "both clubs" meaning 2 clubs. And Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club continued Port Adelaide in the SANFL when Port Adelaide went in the AFL in 1997. GW!" [4]
Also: "I think ive explained myself really well and that the website isn't totally right. Who knows who could have written that. GW!" [5]
Sequal1: "you keep on pointing me towards [6], but no matter how many times I read it, it still doesn't say it they were founded in 1997. It says they split in 1997, but it doesn't say which way (as in the Magpies stayed the same and Power was the other company, or the other way round). In the same link it clearly states that they are celebrating 140 years." [7]
GuineaPigWarrior: "Here is the link claiming they were formed in 1997 but share history with the Port Adelaide Football Club http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/port_adel_magpies.htm" [8]
And: "That is for the original Port Adelaide football Club. It writes "In [1997] the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the [formation] of the [Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club], who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996." Now it writes it was kept in the SANFL with a revised club in 1997. Do you get it?" [9]
Sequal1: "That link clearly states formed 1870!!!!" [10] (4th line down)
And: "If that was written about the "original" club, why is it it goes on about "Premierships: SENIORS - <CUT>,1998 & 1999 (36 total)?? Going by your logic, the "original" club is in the AFL, so can't have got the premiership in 98 + 99. So this isn't about the "original" club, this is about the club as we know it, all it's history from 1870 to present." [11]
Sequal1: "Here is the registration details for Port Adelaide Football Club [12]. It was originally called "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED", but changed it's name to "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED". No date is available on the free entry for when they changed their name, but I guess (yes this is a guess with no evidence to back it up) that it was in 1997 when they entered the AFL. And here they are for the Magpies [13] Unfortunately, due to the type of company the Magpies are, their registration details don't give you any info. But, the main thing that I am getting at here is, the company that is playing as Power in the AFL was Registered on the 29/03/1995. This implies that the company that played in the SANFL in 1996 is definitely not the same company that played in the AFL in 1997, unless obviously, the team that played in the SANFL in 1996 was "PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB (A.F.L.) LIMITED" (please note the "A.F.L" part of the name). So, this is the bit when I go back to the whole founded in 1870 and not 1997 argument. There is no definitive proof that the Magpies were founded in 1870, or if in fact it was power that was founded in 1870, but according to a government website (www.asic.gov.au), the current company that is playing in the AFL was registered in 1995. My vote is to change the Founded date back to 1870." [14] (multiple edits)
GuineaPigWarrior: "Yes, the original Port Adelaide was founded in 1870, now known as "the Power" you are not listning. I am sick and tired of this. This is the "new" Port Adelaide Magpies. The old one are now the "power". Port Adelaide Football Club have a section on the Magpies which goes from 1870 to 1996. Thats when they enterd the AFL. They had to make a new club to keep Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL. So they established Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club in 1997."
[15]
And: "Actually, Port Adelaide Power were established in 1996 because, that is when the AFL granted them a AFL license which legally established them as an AFL team." [16]
And: "Again, you never read what I write. I wrote they were "offically established as "AFL" club when they got their license". They were formed in 1995 but got their license in 1996 that offically established them as a AFL club. GW!" [17]
Also mixed in we have a
IP comment and a
third opinion
Which is it? 1997 or 1870?
Sequal1 (
talk)
11:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The Port Adelaide Football Club was formed in 1870. The Port Adelaide Football Club won the second SA licence to join the AFL from the SANFL and started playing in that competition in 1997.
The Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club was formed to replace the Port Adelaide Football Club in the SANFL: http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/tabid/6038/default.aspx?newsid=70842
I do wonder why the Port Magpies site in the SANFL state that they were established in 1870. The sooner they fold the clearer it will become, but at this stage wikipedia would need to follow info according to sources so I think the "shared history" thing should be fine for now. Eathb ( talk) 14:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Here, this person has ask an Port Adelaide Football Club offical facebook page of the question and the Port offical has written that the person is correct. The "Port Adelaide Magpies Football CLub" was established in 1997. Here is the link [18]. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 8:20, 10 September, 2010 (UTC)
The comment is from an Port Adelaide offical. Andrew Fuss Communications Officer and Andrew Weaver Media & Multimedia Producer from the Port Adelaide Football Club. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:20, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Blocking? What is that going to do? You are being biased. It is people like you who are making frastrated on wikipedia. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:30, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Change my ways? I have been suspended 3 times and I have the same mind on things as I have always had. Blocking me will not "change my ways". I want the articles not to be put with unneeded and false information and it's wikipedians like you who try to stop me. And please do not spy and be noisey on me. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:45, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
But I am not vandalising it either. So where both in the right. So by you logic we should just keep undoing each other which will result in us getting blocked. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 23:55, 11 September, 2010 (UTC)
Look, both the Port Adelaide Football Club and the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club's are two different clubs. That website is to keep the PAMFC alive in the SANFL and to try and merge it to the Port Adelaide Football Club. I think this prove that the PAMFC was established in 1997. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 17:05, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
This from a Port Adelaide media offical from the club. If you had read what I had written you would understand it's a Facebook user asking the question to an offical of the club. The facebook page is linked from their offical website. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 21:05, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
It is a reliable source when it's coming from a person who works in the media appartment at the club. I would say 3 but the club want to say 2 to keep them together which is what they want. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 21:30, 12 September, 2010 (UTC)
The official view, is basically as per GPW. I have a copy of the AFL 1997 book and on page 114 under "Port Adelaide: A Brief History" by Greg Hobbs, it starts "Port Adelaide, the AFL's newest club traces its origins back to 1870 and over the decades has been South Australia's proudest football club". That is the official view, that the club formerly known as the Magpies moved into the AFL, and because the AFL/SANFL didn't want to have the AFL club lumbered with supporting (financially) a seconds team in the SANFL (which at the time, no other AFL club did in the WAFL/VFL) they created a new team in the SANFL, called the Port Adelaide Magpies.
Now, the confusing/unofficial aspect of this, is that only about 10 SANFL Magpies from 1996 ended up as Power players in 1997, most of them stayed in the SANFL with the Magpies. The Magpies jumpers didn't change. Their home ground didn't change. It was purely an administrative separation (and as ASIC wasn't around in 1870, ASIC searches are fairly meaningless). Therefore, you can imagine, that most supporters, especially those who stuck by the SANFL team, weren't at all pleased about "losing" their heritage or their premierships, so they "share" the history.
The Power claim that they have 1 AFL flag and 34 SAFA/SAFL/SANFL flags, the Magpies claim the 34 and any they've won since (have they won any?) So, the current Magpies club was officially created in 1997, but only on paper. It's essence and history was created in 1870. The Power was officially awarded the right to the next AFL licence on Dec 13, 1994, launched their name and colours in 1995, but only played from 1997, but officially were founded in 1870.
It all comes down to what is a Football Club? Is it:
Depending on what your answer is to that question, you'll get a different year. Now, stick all of that into an infobox!
You also have to realise that there is a LOT of POV involved from the "official sources". The AFL really don't want the SANFL flags included, but the Power do. The Magpies want them too. So much about encouraging people to follow a team is about the intangibles, the culture, the history, that it would be marketing suicide not to try to milk it all for what it's worth, hence you get conflicting messages and sometimes outright mistruths. Fremantle deliberately went the other way in the early years, avoiding a strong link with the Fremantle WAFL clubs, to try to "broadened their appeal" and I guess it although it didn't work at the beginning, but as the WAFL has declined further in terms of tribalism, it's become a good point - you don't have to be an Easts/Souths supporter to follow Freo. Not sure if Port has quite got their mix/alignment right, but that's a completely separate issue. The-Pope ( talk) 16:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
So why isn't the page unpretected and put in with this information instead of false one? GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 11:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
If Port Magpies were a new club then players like Ginever et al would've had to sign new contracts etc to play on for the club in 1997. It's a continuation of the same old club from 1870. What are you people going to say if the OnePAFC plan gets up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 11:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
You just defeated your own argument. The Magpies still have the same association number (check on the ASIC website) that they've had for many years prior to even the AFL existing in the national form. Even if your view point were correct, the date would be 1996 because that's when an AFL team would have needed to have been formed. Please stop making things up and actually contact the club for confirmation. You're a Freo supporter anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 00:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
From the club's website (from which a link is provided in this article)
"Since playing its first game in 1870, the club has gone on to win an Australian record of 36 SANFL premierships including six in a row and achieve the honour of being Champions of Australia on four occasions.
<snip>
In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club Ltd (Power) joined the AFL with the Magpies continuing in the SANFL as the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Inc. with both Clubs sharing the history from 1870 to 1996."
The key word being CONTINUING. You haven't provided a verifiable link to your viewpoint. The Power may have tried to rewrite history back in 1997 by initially claming that the Magpies are a new club but it's not logical to have a continuing club with same logo colours etc being "new". This is being redressed with the One PAFC push. Stop vandalising this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggies1870 ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I thought that my edits were a fair overview of the situation, which could be further developed in the next sections. I'm not interested in edit warring over it though, I've put my case, sort it out yourself. The-Pope ( talk) 04:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
There's no "technical date of formation" apart from 1870. If this "technical date" was 1997, then the associated clubs licence they have in their possession would be feature that date. It's much earlier than that. All I've done is provided links to the clubs official stance on their own history. You people have scratched and clutched at straws to support a viewpoint and you've quoted sources without providing verifiable links to them. Maggies1870 ( talk) 02:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
"since playing it's first game in 1870" isn't ambiguous at all: http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php So if you're saying 1996, why was everyone editing to say 1997? Maggies1870 ( talk) 08:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Stop making things up. The club was formed in 1870. 139.230.245.21 ( talk) 02:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
If the Magpies are a new club then they wouldn't have the same associated clubs registration number they've had for decades, which implies a continuation. Of course Port people went into the AFL, when you promote someone, you need more people to fill the vacant positions. Glenelg didn't suddenly become a new club formed in 1991 when the majority of their people went over to the Crows. It's a specious argument you've come up with. I'm getting sick of a 14 year old child deciding on what the history was when there were people where were not only alive at the time but involved in the process. It's this kind of thing that makes wikipedia a joke. Maggies1870 ( talk) 08:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?state_number=A1764&juris=5&hdtext=SA&srchsrc=1 The search is coming up as 2002 so that must've been a renewal date, but trust me, that's an old number. The Mapgies used to bend to the will of the Power, but in reality it was a "de-merger" and both clubs are reflecting that in their "re-merger" proposal. If we're using business establishment dates, then the Power are the new club but that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm arguing for people to stop saying that a club that has continued in the SANFL for decades to stop being referred to as a "new" club. It doesn't make logical sense for a club that had much of the same playing group one year with the same guernseys, home ground etc to be a labelled a "new" club the following year. Maggies1870 ( talk) 10:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Providing evidence is not accusing or threatening. I think it's unfair for you to accuse others of flaming when they provide evidence to counter your viewpoint. Maggies1870 ( talk) 12:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The establishment date was 1870. I'm not sure why a bunch of kids get to make up history and call it fact. Maggies1870 ( talk) 03:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6038/newsid/104588/default.aspx
Even the PAFC agree that the PAMFC shares 1870 as the date, note the word HISTORY:
"The Port Adelaide situation is unique in Australian football, as since 1997 there have been two Port Adelaide Football Clubs sharing the brand, history and heritage of PAFC but running as separate - and often competing - businesses. " Maggies1870 ( talk) 09:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I've reprotected the article; I think the reasons are self-evident. Clearly this is a complex and long-running dispute, both on and critically off-wiki. There certainly doesn't appear to be a 'right' or 'wrong' view that everyone, including Reliable sources can agree on, and the article needs to reflect that. You may find a request for comment helpful to try to thrash out a consensus. Ged UK 08:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
So what happens to both Port Adelaide articles now? 202.10.91.202 ( talk) 09:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
GPW will still argue that the Magpies were formed in 1997.
Maggies1870 (
talk)
12:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
You're the only one arguing they were not formed then. You show no sources backing your claim, and you only give personal opinion which wikipedia is against. Read the guidelines. Now when it changes back, I'm going to put "actual" refrences supporting me, and putting it to 1997. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 18:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The timeline should be from, 1997 to 2010. Then either make an section for SANFL Port Magpies which are now merged with PAFC. Or make another article like, Port Adelaide Football Club (SANFL). I'd rather just make a new article like other AFL clubs with lower league teams have their own articles (Collingwood, Geelong). GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 17:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
On the PAFC website about the merger: “Quite simply, we will now able to say:
Obviously the AFL Port wiki would need a "1997-present: SANFL Port Adelaide Magpies" or something about One PAFC section Eathb ( talk) 04:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Number 3 is completly false, the premierships do not merge. When Collingwood VFL team merged with Collingwood AFL team, they didn't merge the premierships. Nor did The Brisbane Lions, when they merged with Fitzroy. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 16:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
No the PAFC (AFL) itself has put out a statement saying that it will count the 1998 and 1999 premierships. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Powerstiffs ( talk • contribs) 07:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Link for Eathb's comment. GPW, it's Ports words, not his, as he said in his original post. (right at the bottom of the link) 110.174.161.234 ( talk) 10:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Those are the CEO, Mark Haysman claims, not Port Adelaide, please get your facts right. I believe he thinks since they merged, they also merge premierships, which isn't true, unless there is a good reliable source to prove me wrong. Because, The Brisbane Lions, do not claim to have won 11 premierships, because they merged with Fitzroy. Really, legally, this is an former different club, who have merged with another club. I do not think they have merge premierships, since they were there own club while winning 2 premierships, and now for the first time since 1996, are back together, known as Port Adelaide Football Club. Those 2 premierships are with PAMFC not PAFC. But if you can find the "best" most "reliable sources", please, I'd really like you to do this, rather than make up personal information based on a member of the clubs thoughts. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 20:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I am sick of you trying to be a troll. Wanting me to abuse you or something. It was published by them. Not legally stated. Stop wasting my time, and others, because you show no sources. I am sick of fighting, you just want to try and waste my time. I think you are just a troll, being sarcastic. Now if you want to discuss a "proper" agreement and resolution, I am happy to make it "2 premierships as Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club" rather than having it 36 premierships, since they were there own club between 1997 to 2010. GuineaPigWarrior ( talk) 22:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Richmond and the Bulldogs all have separate pages for both the AFL teams and the Reserves teams. I can't see how this page is any different, besides the fact that the Port Adelaide SANFL Football Club is a South Australian football club. Therefore, the Port Adelaide SANFL Football Club deserves its own article. Please don't blank or redirect this page without providing valid reasons why this page should be redirected. -- Alza08 ( talk) 10:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)