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Why subjects lower than "Opponents of Pornography Addiction" don't appear on the page, and in the "edit page" they do? I don't know much editing on Wikipedia and I think one of you who knows should fix this problem.
People can edit it. - Can't touch
Hey, i'm removing the line: "Many informal "self-tests" have been written (for example, here), but do not appear to have been normed or statistically validated." from the beginning. Not only is it an unneccisary statement, but the site it links to seems to be one of very few self-tests available, and the site is incredibly religously charged. To say it hasn't been normed or statistically validated is an understatement, the website it links to is simply a checklist for yourself (not a 'self-test' at all).
Is this NPOV?
No, it really hasn't. It's still blatantly POV. In my opinion, for what it's worth, but that seems to be the general idea of a bunch of people on the talk page. — Simetrical ( talk) 22:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Removed from the article:
Can we have something other than a report of an un-named "series of studies" here? Cites of the actual studies would be a good first step. -- The Anome 08:00, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Remaining in the article:
I very much doubt that an endorsement from Bundy particularly advances the anti-porn position. -- The Anome 08:07, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For a discussion of Ted Bundy's interview, see the BBC Channel 4 documentary 'Natural Porn Killer,' ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2334295434685794228&q=Ted+Bundy) which basically argues that Ted Bundy faked this position and that the pornography-escalation was not a factor in precipitating his murders. There is, however, a study with rural communities that were gradually introduced to TV that show a drastic increase in violence within a year of having increased violent imagery (absent in neighboring communities that didn't get the TV yet). (Don't have time to look now but I found it cited on anti-TV sites.) Therefore, it seems to me in keeping with anecdotal evidence that pornography can facilitate or trigger violent excesses by people so disposed.
From the article (my emphasis):
What evidence precisely? Cites, please. -- The Anome 08:11, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[Added later] Found this page with many links (looks to be mainly anti-porn) with numerous quoted studies and essays. Some may have some reliable information, perhaps someone could look into them.
http://www.medlina.com/pornography.htm
I would like to add a few words and see what comes back... a little background... i am writing a psychology paper on hypersexuality for school and i found this site. it is informative to have all of these opinions here to refer to for insite (im not gonna quote you or anything, but i wanted to thank you for the open talk) Thank you for writing out here what you feel inside.
I do think however that learning from anyone's mistakes is a big part of not ending up there yourself, so maybe we should listen to reformed serial killers advice (with caution, of course) more often. It is an important part of life to grow and learn. It's a plus that we don't have to be there ourselves inorder to benefit from the lesson. 69.231.113.109 21:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Agatha
As a journalist, it would be great if the person who wrote this article could possibly be objective. This is an encyclopedia which is supposed to be factual and objective. I did not come looking for this person's opinion. I came looking for some unbiast information to include in my newpaper article about pornography addiction.
Wikipedia needs to tighten up on its writers because they're slacking and it reflects badly on them.
Please, don't write to inform the public if you can't do right.
As a journalist, do you think you could learn to spell? Moreover, as a journalist do you think you could learn to contruct a sentence using English grammar correctly? I think your point is that this article isn't of a neutral view point. This is something already being discussed on this page with a view to rectification.
ShizuokaSensei
00:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The article does not provide any arguments supporting the point of view:
"Not everyone believes that pornography addiction exists, or that the harmful effects ascribed to it are real." Nerd65536 05:15, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What is needed is to use a scientific model for addiction. The doctor cited in the article is but a single source. I'd recommend using the DSM-IV-TR criteria for addiction -- namely habituation and withdrawl. Some of the finer points are covered in the definition, but it's not neutral in this piece.
apart from a german article (which may need some work still) there is no similar wikipedia-article in any other language. Why not translate it and edit some articles in french, spanish, ... Go Ahead!-- 213.6.4.89 22:48, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Once again, the spam filter is malfunctioning and blocking a slew of sites that were already on the page, but now have been put on the blacklist. I had to disable all links to post new content. When they fix it, someone please go through and add an h to each link (i.e. ttp:// -> http://) 69.243.41.28 02:13, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From the article:
Crikey! People using porn as an aid for masturbation? Surely not. I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! I always thought they used it as a reference for figure drawing; pardon me whilst I adjust my entire world-view. -- The Anome 10:01, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
I agree the article needs a good bit of work, esp. on NPOV. I just gave it a try on the Diagnosis section. I took out the occasional loaded adective, but mostly added actual citations and quotations of domain experts. I dropped the quote of examples from Cline's criteria, because they looked silly taken totally out of context, while Cline's article (to which I added a cite) is considerably more reasonable as a whole. He talks mostly about cases where extreme use of pornography seriously impacts a person's life and relationships -- sounds just about like addiction to anything else -- alcohol, drugs, golf....
Anyway, here's hoping adding some specifics and references improves the entry some.
Sderose 23:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed that section, because it seems redundant to me. Although it makes sense to include information about how the internet may have exacerbated the pornography addiction problem, the section didn't do that very well. It only described online pornography addiction as somehow a subset of pornography addiction. This is about as useful as having a section entitled "Beer Addiction" in an article on alcoholism. The Amazing Superking July 4, 2005 02:09 (UTC)
I think the disagreement here is between the people who use the primary meaning of "addiction" ("Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance" -- American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition), and those who believe that the secondary meaning ("The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.") justifies the use of the word to describe avid use of pornography, and make no distinction between the two meanings.
The second definition of "addiction" ("habit or compulsion") is figurative and could be used to mean "to have a habit" in just about any situation ("I'm addicted to flying kites", "might as well face it, you're addicted to love").
This second usage is metaphorical, like saying "I'm starving", when you mean "I'm hungry". Now, in a medical context, starvation is well-defined: it involves lack of food to the point of illness or death. The secondary usage of "starving" is not literal, and should not be confused with the first.
Similarly, addiction has a precise meaning in a medical context. In my opinion, the first meaning is the correct one when we are talking about medical matters: it is well defined and very specific ("physiological and psychological", "habit-forming substance").
However, once you begin to conflate the two meanings, you start to blur meaning to the point of nonsense. Suggesting that addiction(2) is synonymous with addiction(1), simply because the two senses share a common word, is just as careless as suggesting that starving(2) is the same as starving(1), and leads to the same sort of logical error.
Now, there's nothing wrong in principle with the concept of excessive use of pornography, and nothing wrong with suggesting that it is a problem, or that something could, or should, be done about it (although that clearly is, and should be reported as, a POV). It's just that we just shouldn't call it an "addiction".
Now, I know that some people do consider that addiction(2) to pornography use is actually driven by a form of internal chemical addiction(1). While this does not involve the logic error above, this is a strong that is far from being a mainstream medical or scientific view. Exceptional claims in general require exceptional evidence; for NPOV, this should require both detailed cites of sources for this POV, and the evidence they cite for these claims. Unfortunately, ising the word "addiction" in the title of this article begs the question, and blurs the issue at the outset.
As a first attempt to resolve this, I suggest this article should be renamed to something that does not contain the word "addiction": perhaps " excessive use of pornography"? The article could then discuss the issue, including the contentious one as to whether high levels of pornography use actually do involve a form of internal chemical addiction(1), not to mention whether it is possible to define what "excessive" means in this context, without begging the question in the title. -- The Anome 09:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No. The word 'addiction' is fine in this context. A gambling addication and a heroin addiction are very different problems, yet our calling them both addiction does not cause us any confusion. The term 'excessive' is not much use: last week I looked at several hours worth of porn. I had time, it did not cost me much it was not a problem. This week I have looked at less porn yet have just decided its a problem. The fact I am not able to control my behaviour is the problem. The question of whether or not it's excessive is a red herring.
This article MUST be redone without the christain moralizing. (As others have allready stated) All of the links are to religious websites, whose typical solution is: "put your faith in God and respect sex as his gift to humanity." -- I can promise that this will be met with derision by most of the people who come to this article looking for help. Such overt moralizing deminishes the credibilty of the project. People have decided want help to give up, want help to give up -- not cohercing into your church while they are down.
Most of the problems attributed to porn are also prevailent in other activities. (Eg. Porn and domestic violence Vs Hollywood and violence, ...or... Porn and the exploitation of women Vs the cosmetic industry and the exploitation of women.) There are lots of others... Okay, so these are problems, but their nature is complex and not relevent to the addict. Not because the addict is callous and uncaring, but by the time he has searched wiki for 'Porn Addict' he has allready decided he wants to give up, and is looking for methods by which he can achieve this not further demonisation.
-Will (Editors: I would like a gap here to seperate my contribution from the one below.)
There are a few problems, not the least of which is the fact that the subject of porn itself is still taboo. People suffering from porn addiction would be afraid to come forward because such activity strongly insinuates deep lacking in real-world affection and sexuality, which I'm sure anyone experiencing would find utterly shameful and humiliating. It also doesn't help that the other side is a multi-billion dollar industry hell bent on not mere survival, but expansion and indeed mainstream distribution. (One could cite any number of articles covering the recent xxx domain controversy to hear the pornographers' side of the story.) So while the industry can afford to propagate their contention that there is no such thing as porn addiction, the addict suffers in reclusivity. In the meantime, just do a Pubmed search on the topic and you'll discover at least a few WELL WRITTEN, ACADEMIC articles. Reading those articles, this discussion--as well as the article itself--should veer from semantics and opinion, to enumerating the facts and evidence that are currently available.
Antaeus Feldspar, you sound rather bitter, and consequently a bit irrational. "Do some people have a severe problem with pornography? Sure they do. Some people also have a severe problem not going back and checking their car locks seven or eight times just to make sure they actually locked those doors. This proves nothing about addictive qualities to car doors." You're confusing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with addiction. And your point of view is essentially conspiratory and/or mearly antagonistic: "A disputed topic cannot be presented this way. The only "professional" sources seem to be American, and probably are heavily influenced by Western religions and ideologies." First of all, I think the article makes quite clear that the topic is disputed, and it actually reads biased against the notion of porn addiction. Second, let's keep in mind that for a long time, no one thought smoking was harmful, and it wasn't even until relatively recently that the cigarette manufacturers conceeded that their products are addicting. Also look at the asbestos industry, or I should say the asbestos litigation industry -- attorneys continue making millions off companies who knew their products were harmful but did little to nothing to protect employees and consumers. Even before that, it took quite some time to build consensus that asbestos exposure is indeed harmful. So it is not unreasonable to assume that the true prevalence of porn addiction, whether negligible or significant, will take quite some time to come to light as well, especially considering the reclusive nature of the activity itself, compared with the social nature of drinking and smoking. You're also guilty of what you accuse others of: "But then we must also acknowledge a fact that this case makes clear: "very real" does not mean "very prevalent". This is exactly the logical leap that most people who talk about the seriousness of "pornography addiction" blithely jump right over: "You cannot deny that somewhere, out of the 6.5 trillion people on this planet, some of them have what can be classed as a porn addiction." Where did you get that quote? It's not in this discussion, and it's not in the article itself, either. No one was making that leap. And I've never heard anyone making that leap in conversation about the topic. You also claim "the trouble is that they have very little hard scientific evidence to back it up, relying instead on dubious anecdotal evidence, including that provided by serial killers." As per the former, you're confusing published case studies for anecdotal evidence (unless you didn't know such case studies exist -- http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/158/10/1590 for example). As per the latter, you're equating sworn-in self-testamony with anectodal hearsay. So quit playing devil's advocate, especially since the article actually reads biased towards your opinion, and keep an open mind while research continues.
"such activity [viewing porn] strongly insinuates deep lacking in real-world affection and sexuality" Hmmm? Is that your own (unhelpfull and moralising) point of veiw? Isnt such moralising the whole problem here? It is possible that you are putting constraints on your own perception of reality and sexuality. - will
I got rid of all the baseless, unreferenced opinions and kept it simple. Others may add to it as necessary, but please, let's keep it informed. Let's keep it to what we know, not what we would like to think. It's a very heated topic, with a multi-billion dollar business on one side, and consumers--from the happily casual to the disturbingly obsessed--on the other. Keep it real, and keep it civil. If you can't find at least one solid reference for your statement, don't bother writing.
Almost as soon as I rid this article of the rambling, biased, unreferenced banter, a Wiki Nazi replaced my unbiased, referenced edit with the same old garbage. First of all, let's be honest--making statements and appending "citation needed" is a cop out for laziness, or simply opinion (i.e., POV in Wiki-geek-speak). Second of all, I'd like to know what is biased about "Regardless of opinion, it is important to acknowledge that scientific research on this subject is in its infancy, and it is thus premature at this point in time to draw definitive conclusions." And what's biased about citing several articles published in peer-reviewed scientific journals? This is in stark contrast to the opinionated, ambiguous, and unsubstantiated statementes in the current version. For example, "While some believe that it does exist, it can be argued that the majority of people who view and enjoy pornography, like the majority who enjoy any activity, will probably never encounter the harmful effects attributed to it when it is viewed habitually." Indeed, the article is now once again riddled with assertions qualified merely by "citation needed," not to mention cynicism, like putting the term pornography addiction in quotes.
When I used to only read articles on this site, I enjoyed it. But now that I've actually participated, it's obvious to me that Wikipedia is a forum, parading as an encyclopedia. Anyone and everyone can post a topic, assert their own opinions, and shrudge off responsibility with cop outs like "citation needed." Having an arbitrary, ambiguous rule set and an arbitrary award system doesn't help. Wiki is a sad excuse for rigorous academia and scientific research. (BTW, reading some authors' profile pages containing past arguments, it's painfully clear that some "Wikipedians" have an agenda.)
I see where this article is going, and I'll have no further part of it (much to the Wiki Nazis' delight, I imagine). Hey, while you're at it, why don't add icons and smileys to the forum! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.110.223 ( talk • contribs)
When an article is so biased, cynical, poorly referenced, and poorly written, it is better to wipe the slate clean and start anew with a well-written, fair, and well-referenced introduction. I had made it clear in my comment that my entry was to be used as an exemplary starting point. Good luck trying to doctor this pathetic entry, as I'm sure you remember going through similar pains when drafting papers in school. Like I said, I've lost faith in this forum and won't be touching the article again. So knock yourself out!
I believe that the section on skepticism needs additional research. The section as it stands now includes flawed logic, i.e. people believe that because some individuals can view pornography and lead regular lives, there is no such thing as pornography addition. However, the same arguement can be made against other forms of addition, with illegical conclusion: many people can have a single drink or an occasional cigarrette, but this does not mean that there is no such thing as alcoholism or cigarrette addiction. I understand that this flawed logic is held by many individuals, but it should be called what it is.
Further, there are serious criticisms of pornography addition that are being ignored. For example, there is the argument that the term "addiction" (i.e. chemistry based) is less appropriate than "compulsion" (i.e. behaviorally/pyschologically based). The article on general sexual addition includes many appropriate studies that can be cross-referenced.
I think "some individuals" is an understatement, I'd rather call it 95% of all male teenagers, and so far, I have yet to see any significant effects of this "addiction". This is a joke, whats next, TV addiction? Reading addiction? 212.30.218.14 ( talk) 02:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Well addiction takes its form in almost any activity and is typically defined as an unhealthy or unnatural obsession or consumption. Everyone eats every day - but we are not addicted until this habit becomes abusive. So given that pornography addiction is a reality for many people - actually I believe that pornography is pretty evil and does not serve any purpose for myself that is not socially detrimental. I think that pornography is a very poor example or attempt at art - there are artistic elements however this fails to be anything but a perversion of sexual activity. Humans are naturally inclined to pursue sexual encounters - this is instinct. Pornography purely pervades and misleads people into a pseudo sexual experience. Pornography can be used on a therapeutic basis to treat couples with sexual performance problems or individuals with other psychological or physical disorder. However it is not a tool that could be reasonably used to enhance or encounter true intimacy. This is all based on private sexual research. The internet is no place to learn about sexuality. When in all fairness it should be! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtsu4232625 ( talk • contribs) 13:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
After a little searching I found several studies linked here [2]. I think that whether these are really 'scientific' or 'valid' studies is a matter for discussion but that SOME research has been done should be mentioned. The connections between media depictions and violence and pornography and crime or psychological dysfunction is a popular and controversial area of research in social science. Antonrojo 02:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I could not find anything for this claim either
people with this disorder need to stop watching pornographic material for at least 3 months to fully recover from this disorder- Arron Bordinhio pHD in sex studies, MD in physiological sciences.
The p in PHD is not capitalized and the information is questionable as well as the doctors existence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fade2black 81 ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge with Sexual addiction, Cybersex???
I made some edits today to try to neutralize it. I really do think it should be either merged with or made a sub-heading of sexual addiction, because a porn addict is a sex addict. Porn addiction is simply a method of acting out, as is compulsive masturbation or serial cheating, etc. I have been working in this field for over 8 years and while I can understand the religious fervor over it, it really should be treated as a medical issue, not a sociological or religous one. Regardless of whether or not you want to defend or end porn, the fact is that pornography addiction is defined by a compulsive use of it to the detriment of one's life (ie. time, money, and suffering relationships). As with any other substance/activity, some people can use it without any problems and some cannot. -- Madmumbler 19:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC) MadMumbler.
Agree that articles should be merged. I reverted your attempt to NPOV the article. I can see why you made this effort, but it had the unfortunate effect of littering the article with even more weasel words (see WP:WEASEL). What this article desperately needs in any NPOVing attempt is material deriving from reputable sources WP:RS -- Pathlessdesert 14:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think not, scientifically the addictions are simaler, but a lot of (unscientific) discussion about pornography addiction cannot be grouped with sexual addiction. 206.116.159.199 07:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I respect your opinion but in my own opinion I do not think it should be merged, there are different types of sex addicts and different types of programs for each. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myoceanlife1962 ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I think that the article needs to be thoroughly overhauled, and the references to fascist theocratic demagogues like James Dobson put in their appropriate context: that of a powerful, politically-connected opportunist cashing in on a real social problem to promote his own reactionary, fundamentalist agenda in a most insidious and intimate way.
These so-called "religious" approaches to the problem of porn addiction are fundamentally and irretrievably flawed not because of the broader political agenda behind them, however; they are flawed because they have no basis whatsoever in science--in empiricial observation or serious theoretical consideration. They are an outgrowth rather of a particular ideology that also considers homosexuality deviant and sinful, and that promotes and enforces a subservient role for women. Dobson and others fit the facts to this agenda. There's no way that they can be held accountable to any rigorous, reality-based analysis of the phenomenon of porn addiction, which certainly needs to be understood more fully, because they ultimately reject any standard of measurement that is based in reality rather than their own narrow, hateful brand of Christianity.
They should not be thought of or portrayed as an expert in this or any other matter. If they are included at all, it should be as a footnote showing the kind of dangerous and insidious opportunism that has attached itself to this issue.
Huh?
Disagree, just because his views are unscientific doesn't mean his words hold no influence. Just find some scientists that disagree, and mention that. 206.116.159.199 07:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Information is repeated in both places. I guess sexual addiction should be considered as the main article. Other types of sexual addiction (e.g. Pornography addiction, cybersex, etc) should refer back to Sexual addiction when the same information applies to both of them and focus only on what is specific in this particular behavior.
Saaraleigh 19:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
disagree. i think we are getting confused here, a sexual addiction article would be about addictions that are sexually related, not just addiction to sex. masturbation to porn is definitely sexual. i think there should be a small subsection in the sexual addiction section and a link to here. i dont know a lot about the rules here, but im sure theres an article called "cars" and then subsets of articles for different types of cars, different makes etc. sexual addiction should be sort of the core article to all sexual addictions in the same way the cars article is for different types of cars. Hoginford ( talk) 00:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It's late... and i'm sick and tired of pouring over endless amounts of biased and non NPOV topics deemed 'morally incorrect' and thus censored, warped, and made to hold up as a fake wikified 'article' by people who say "HEY!, go ahead and read this inaccesible non easily peer reviewable book that also costs a bundle and might not be available in your local library!, WP:BE BOLD
you know what I say?
-------- -------- -------- -------- __________________
yes.. .that's right!
I think that we need EXPERTS to help review, and fix up this article A LOT!. It's obviously almost completely biased against pornography, is FILLED iethl inks bloating the dangers of it, and the only thing that doesn't rant against this source of sexual arousal are a few statements from a long forgoteen, probably outdated, and equally inaccessible book as lost as that book on psychosexual infatilism by Sigmund Freud or whoever he was.........
I'll try and fix it up a bit, and i say!, don't give up i n the fight to make wikipedia a valuable source of info that presents nuetral points of view!, if it has one sides POV, then it must have an equal amount from the OTHER side, all of whose information must be backed up and not in a tome deep inside the old rat's hut in the heart of far away and distant riverwood forest.
Am i making myself clear? Nateland 09:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
About the leading pornography addiction 'expert' I hate to use a little POV but these sources CAN be claimed dubious... just READ the page on James Dobson. You'd think a few of these groups in favor of getting rid of pornography would be against HIM!. for what he says....
Dobson believes homosexuality can be cured in adults and prevented in children, and is an opponent of the gay rights movement. Focus on the Family sponsors a monthly conference called “Love Won Out,” where many of the speakers are self-professed ex-gays. Held around the U.S., the conference encourages its attendees to believe that "homosexuality is preventable and treatable."[2] According to critics, Focus on the Family asserts that there is a "homosexual agenda" and associates gays with pedophilia.[2]
In his book, Bringing Up Boys, Dobson writes that "Homosexuals deeply resent being told that they selected this same-sex inclination in pursuit of sexual excitement or some other motive.[5]
However, Dobson does not believe that homosexuality is genetic. In his June 2002 newsletter, he states: "There is further convincing evidence that homosexuality is not hereditary. For example, since identical twins share the same chromosomal pattern, or DNA, the genetic contributions are exactly the same within each of the pairs. Therefore, if one twin is 'born' homosexual, then the other should inevitably have that characteristic too. That is not the case. When one twin is homosexual, the probability is only 50 percent that the other will have the same condition. Something else must be operating."
James Dobson is a promoter of patriarchal marriage. He believes men have the divine obligation to lead their families, and women have the divine obligation to submit to their husband's authority. As such he supports the conservative Christian men's organization Promise Keepers, which also believes women should submit to the authority of their husbands. He believes that mothers with any children under the age of eighteen ought not to work outside the home, if finances and temperaments permit them to stay home.[4] Views on corporal punishment and authority
In his pamphlet, Dare to Discipline Dobson advocated the spanking of children of up to eight years old when they misbehave, but warns that "corporal punishment should not be a frequent occurrence" and that "discipline must not be harsh and destructive to the child's spirit." He does not advocate what he considers harsh spanking because he thinks "It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."[3]
Dobson recognizes the dangers of child abuse, and therefore considers disciplining children to be a necessary but unpleasant part of raising children that should only be carried out by qualified parents: "Anyone who has ever abused a child -- or has ever felt himself losing control during a spanking -- should not expose the child to that tragedy. Anyone who has a violent temper that at times becomes unmanageable should not use that approach. Anyone who secretly 'enjoys' the administration of corporal punishment should not be the one to implement it." [2]
In his book The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson suggests that by correctly portraying authority to a child, the child will understand how to interact with other authority figures: "By learning to yield to the loving authority... of his parents, a child learns to submit to other forms of authority which will confront him later in his life — his teachers, school principal, police, neighbors and employers."[4]
Dobson stresses that parents must uphold their authority and do so consistently, comparing the relationship between parents and disobedient children to a battle: "When you are defiantly challenged, win decisively."[3] In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson draws an analogy between the defiance of a family pet and that of a small child, and concludes that "just as surely as a dog will occasionally challenge the authority of his leaders, so will a little child — only more so.[3] (emphasis in original)
When asked "How long do you think a child should be allowed to cry after being punished? Is there a limit?" Dobson responded:
"Yes, I believe there should be a limit. As long as the tears represent a genuine release of emotion, they should be permitted to fall. But crying quickly changes from inner sobbing to an expression of protest... Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears. In younger children, crying can easily be stopped by getting them interested in something else."[3]
Now i really think that with a man who hoists POV opninions over his shoulder, makes claims which themselves are not proven to have worked and IF and WHEN they did failed 90% of the time.... well....
I think the section on Dobson should be removed.
P.S. MERELY complaining?, and all of those irrelevant links on recovering from pornography addiction.... ------_________------
I'm going to get rid of the irrelevant section on James Dobson's point of view. Are there any other Wikipedia articles about OCD-related issues that devote a section to a specific expert's perspective on the topic? This has nothing to do with whether or not porn addiction is real and everything to do with Dobson's opposition to all porn/erotica. Also, I'm changing "opposition" to "skeptics," since we're not talking about people opposed to addiction but people skeptical of the concept of addiction. Jamiem 18:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Dobson is an extremist POV pusher. He is not a reliable source, and so he cannot be used to cite this article. — coel acan — 15:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Emphasis mine. Extremist sources can only be used in articles about themselves, and then only very carefully. — coel acan — 22:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger." [3]
I disagree with including the material - why is his belief on the matter notable for this article? Why don't we also include his position on homosexuality in that article, for example?
Also if you do wish to put it in, please don't remove the merge tag - I have started the discussion already in talk, see my comment above. Mdwh 05:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC) If you are putting
I see that the Dobson material is still gone. Does this mean the matter is settled to everyone's satisfaction? Jamiem 15:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
(Copied from above to avoid further indenting): What is your proof of any of that? Provide it and you will justify your removal of the material. Jinxmchue 14:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the external links were not reliable sources. Here are the ones I removed: [8] That's a span of eight diffs, each one has an edit summary relating to the particular reason for that removal, for anyone who's wondering. — coel acan — 17:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
All three of these sites [11] are run by Pure Community Ministries. The purpose of them is to convert people to Christianity ("We believe this vision is best carried out through authentic fellowship with Jesus Christ and His people" [12]) and bring those who are already Christians around to the "right" way of thinking ("[We] don't allow users to debate the morality of porn" [13]).
Let's look at WP:EL's "What should be linked", in full:
Now let's look at WP:EL's "Links normally to be avoided". This one is longer, so I'll just copy the ones that apply here:
So I'm taking the links down. [14] There may be problems with the other external links, but these definitely have to go. — coel acan — 19:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I mostly just go around finding cites, but some of you who want a more neutral tone may wish to rewrite sections of the cite and link to the WebMD article I've added, which offers opinions on both sides of this.
I found the page by hitting 'random' until I found a page that needed citation fixing (that's what I do late at night). I probably won't be back anytime soon. That said, I'll note from personal experience, I am very pro-porn, I've been a phone sex girl, and I've seen an ex go through a paraphilia issue that could only be described as pornography addiction. While many of the people fighting against it are, to be honest, complete loons with serious agendas, don't assume that if the article is mostly 'well, porn addiction is bad' cites that that means that the POV isn't N. People who study it in scientific, peer reviewed places need to actually come up with real examples of it and the impact. If they look around a lot, and the result is 'Hey. It's not affecting people's lives at all.' then there's nothing for them to study. - Thespian 06:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
There are THOUSANDS of sites and therapists out there that profess to help people who are suffering from porn addiction. The purpose of this article is NOT to provide links to a pile of people with a vested interest in this subject (financial or moral), but instead to provide an encyclopedic view of the subject. Unless there is a noteworthy reason to include a particular anti-pornography site, such as third party news coverage of them that has a reason to be in the article, links will be removed from the article. There are lots of things that are relevant to the subject, but they have nothing to do with providing a usable encyclopedia article about the subject.
I do, in point, follow every single link that is added to this page, and I will not remove anything that has a valid reason to be here (in point, I am inclusionist, and I think I've rv'ed and undone more edits to this page than I've done in all my other edits on Wikipedia). But please do not keep adding links to every anti-porn group and site on the web, or it will make this article unusable. - Thespian 04:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Pretty easy to evaluate this one. Again, the third criterion from WP:EL's "What should be linked" is the one you're shooting for:
We've already danced these steps. — coel acan — 05:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Analysis of the Xxxchurch link as it relates to WP:EL's "Links normally to be avoided:"
1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. - N/A: provides a unique resource
2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources. - N/A: does not mislead
3. Links mainly intended to promote a website. - N/A: not a promotional link
4. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources. - N/A: does not exist solely to sell anything
5. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. - N/A: not much advertising
6. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content. - N/A: no payment or registration needed
7. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser. - N/A: anyone can view it
8. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required. - N/A: no special apps needed
9. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages. - N/A: not a search engine
10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET. - N/A: not an SNS, forum or USENET
11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. - N/A: not a blog or personal web page
12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. - N/A: not an open wiki
13. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked to an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked. - N/A: directly related to the article
You'll note that at no point does that say anything about links that one WP editor or another has judged to be not neutral. As for the section about "What should be linked to," it does not mean those are the only things that can be linked to. Jinxmchue 17:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
under the heading "general information" I am changing it from "pornography addiction is defined as" to "could be defined as" due to the fact that was explained at the beginning of the article. That pornography addiction is not a recognised psychological disorder. I have little doubt personally that it exists, how common I don't know, but you can't say it is defined as anything unless an accepted medical journal defines it. Colin 8 06:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC) I figure it doesn't need the citation tag anymore since its all theoretical now. Colin 8 06:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the second paragraph because it was actually a paragraph depicting an argument against skeptics.
This revert cannot be justified through any wikipedia guideline. In fact these are good faith edits which improved the article, that any editor can cross check. Coming to the revert summary, "two peoples opinions dont represent psychological consensus" — if carefully read, the section begins with "Psychologists and Sex therapists like Dr. Kimberly Young, Dr. Victor Cline, both ...", which has an impartial tone. So there is no question of removing word for word, -- Bluptr ( talk) 14:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This is hardly a recognized diagnosis in any psychological establishment I know of. It might be popular some places in USA, but as far as I can tell from this article, it's not even in DSM IV! I would suspect it's popularity in USA has more to do with religion and moral norms than psychology, but whatever support it has, the fact remains that it is not an official diagnosis.
Yet, when I glance at and read this article, "Pornography addiction" comes off as a very established and understood phenomenon in psychology, and a problem on it's own. Personally, I think this is rediculous (if we should have "pornography addiction", then why not "candy addiction", "tv addiction", "listening to music addiction" and "sitting inside addiction"?), as the reader might already be able to discern. But even if you take this diagnosis seriously, you have to admit it is NOT an established diagnosis. Not in DSM IV, and definately not world wide. In fact, I have never seen it mentioned by anyone other than people from USA, and even in USA it's controversial.
The article should reflect this. This is not an arena to rewrite the textbooks of psychology, and articles should be NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.119.169 ( talk) 23:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure the anecdote involving Ted Bundy under the "stages in pornography addiction" is necessary or helpful. My impression is that it is meant to be an anecdote substantiating the existence of stages in pornography addiction - and I think that it achieves this to a degree - but it also acts to associate pornography addicts with serial killers of the worst kind. People shouldn't get the idea that escalating stages of pornography leads to serial killing. Another problem is that it substantiates the idea of stages in pornography in a way that is only anecdotal, which doesn't go very far in proving the phenomenon, especial granted the exceptional nature of the individual in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.184.27 ( talk) 03:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The author of the book DOES argue that stages in pornography use, much less addiction, does in fact lead to serial killers. Furthermore, he argues this is due to the left wing. I added a book review to provide a bit of balance. I share your concern as to whether or not any of it belongs where it is. sinneed ( talk) 23:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and deleted the passage. Ben Shapiro is a fear monger and blatant liar, and from the Wiki page on Ted Bundy, "Researchers generally agree that Bundy's sudden condemnation of pornography was one last manipulative attempt to forestall his execution by catering to Dobson's agenda as a longtime anti-pornography advocate, telling him precisely what he wanted to hear.[310]" 107.10.253.217 ( talk) 23:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
In recent ages the advent of shock sites often combine pornography and shock humor, making it possible for online pornography addicts to pass off their addiction as simple humor.
1st... I would like to see a source for this. 2nd... even if we find one, it seems nonsensical. Serious overusers of porn, which I rather confidently say would include anyone conceivably called an addict, would "need" for more than these.
I won't kill it again, but... I don't think it belongs, as is. sinneed ( talk) 23:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Formal criteria have been suggested by psychologists like Richard Irons, M. D. and Jennifer P. Schneider along lines strictly analogous to the [[ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders|DSM]] criteria for alcohol and other substance addictions. [1]
While this is an interesting paper, it does NOT propose a diagnosis of "Pornography Addiction". It is about sexual addiction, of which one facet is use of pornography. It may be useful on the sexual addiction article... I don't see its value here, even as an EL, and certainly not as a source for the statement it is attached to. sinneed ( talk) 00:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
References
Not happy with the general tone of this article... it all sounds very "wishy-washy" and argumentative...
Diagnosis as an addiction > Dispute
Stephen Andert states that pornography is a problem for many people, and argues that it can take control of a person's life like alcohol, gambling or drugs, and "drag them kicking and screaming or voluntarily into the gutter." He argues further that the "addictive and progressive (or regressive) nature of pornography is well documented."[3]
This reads like some random person's opinion. If this supposed "nature of pornography" is so well documented, don't say "some guy says it's well documented" - explain what the documentation is and what it says.
Proposed stages of pornography addiction
WTF? Ted Bundy...? I don't see the point of this paragraph at all. It doesn't even mention if he was (supposedly) addicted to porn. Relevance? It just reads like a poorly disguised suggestion that porn can lead to serial killing (of course if that were true, we'd all be dead) or at least violence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PollyWaffler ( talk • contribs) 13:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 15:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
An interested editor may wish to write out the 1990 proposed definition of addiction from an "British Journal of Addiction" article by Aviel Goodman, M.D.
Similarly the proposed stages of porn addiction from "Confronting Your Spouse's Pornography Problem" By Rory C. Reid, Dan Gray.
These works were included before without meeting wp:quote. Cut. - sinneed ( talk) 18:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
" "Evangelicals Are Addicted To Porn". ChristiaNet.com. Retrieved 2007-06-06.
I moved it to the EL section and dubious flagged it. It is clearly related to the subject... but I am not confident it has useful things to say here. I won't kill it, and won't move it again if readded as a footnote. But I object to the latter. :) - sinneed ( talk) 21:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I added the below link and it was deleted by sinneed shortly afterward as because he doubted the usefulness to the article. Croga.org has resources to help people who are concerned about downloading Child pornography. It's non-comercial and not politically or religously biased. I'm not affiliated with site or any anti-pornography movement and I can't think of any page where this link would be relevant. Also, this article seems biased toward the view that this is not a disorder and has nothing concerning its treatment. Link= CROGA.org provider of free, multi-lingual, anonymous self-help resources for people who are worried about downloading and using illegal images Stillwaterising ( talk) 01:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
"Also, this article seems biased toward the view that this is not a disorder and has nothing concerning its treatment."
I will argue that if we need this as an EL:
Is more appropriate... but I oppose, just to be clear.
I am very very dubious of the http://mentalhealthlibrary.info/ site being used as an RS on porn or porn addiction. This is an LDS partisan site. Perhaps as ELs. I do see the work that has been done in updating from the previous (dead) version, and note that this site, too, is moving. Unless someone argues that these should be wp:RS, I am going to turn them into External Links.- Sinneed 15:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed a dead link, and 2 others. All 3 have been restored. wp:EL - I see no need for the 2 live links, and the dead link certainly needs to go. I'll remove these later today unless there is some reason they belong.- Sinneed 20:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Dead link I killed:
- Sinneed 20:27, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
sounded one sided, didnt mention that most biographers of ted bundy think he only condemned porn in hopes that his execution would be delayed. i left the other info there, i just added more. heres a source from the ted bundy article thats goes along with it, i dont know how to do footnotes ^ Michaud & Aynesworth 1989, p. 320. the flow of it needs work i think. Hoginford ( talk) 00:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article is non existent, and it reads more like a damning christian religious self help flyer.
Rob
van
vee
10:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Your claim that "The DSM-5 has never explicitly considered online pornography consumption for inclusion as an addiction, and has not, to date, accepted it." is patently false. Read pages 797-798 of DSM-5. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Differential Diagnosis Excessive use of the Internet not involving playing of online games (e.g., excessive use of social media, such as Facebook; viewing pornography online) is not considered analogous to Internet gaming disorder, and future research on other excessive uses of the Internet would need to follow similar guidelines as suggested herein. Excessive gambling online may qualify for a separate diagnosis of gambling disorder.
— DSM-5, pp. 797-798
Thank you Tgeorgescu for making my point. The DSM5 has not formally debated Internet pornography addiction. Therefore it has not specifically rejected it. Please provide evidence of formal comment procedure and vote. Chrislyte ( talk) 23:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
Sorry, but formal consideration of a condition by the DSM is an extensive *formal* procedure, which allows for public commentary, etc. Casual notes of the type you cite are not the same as formal consideration (and rejection) of a specific disorder. In short, "internet porn addiction" was not "specifically" rejected. Chrislyte ( talk) 18:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
Wait, do we have a secondary source that says that it's never been considered? If not, the sentence needs to be struck as original research. We really don't need to bother evaluating the truth of the statement independent of the sources. The source that's there now is inadequate. 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 12:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
When the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) was being drafted, experts considered a proposed diagnostic addiction called hypersexual disorder, which also included a pornography subtype. But in the end, reviewers determined that there wasn't enough evidence to include hypersexual disorder or its subtypes in the 2013 edition.
— Kirsten Weir, Is pornography addictive?
I removed the following sentence:
Recent Peer-reviewed research by Cambridge University team headed by Addiction neuroscientist Valeri Voon found erectile dysfunction in compulsive porn users that was caused by porn use. Quotes from the research:
CSB subjects reported that as a result of excessive use of sexually explicit materials, they had lost jobs due to use at work (N = 2), damaged intimate relationships or negatively influenced other social activities (N = 16), experienced diminished libido or erectile function specifically in physical relationships with women (although not in relationship to the sexually explicit material) (N = 11),
CSB subjects compared to healthy volunteers had significantly more difficulty with sexual arousal and experienced more erectile difficulties in intimate sexual relationships but not to sexually explicit material.
Please note the wording in the first quote: "as a result of excessive use of sexually explicit materials". Not only do 60% of compulsive porn users have ED, they sate the ED is the result of porn use. Chrislyte ( talk) 00:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I removed this as it was based on Ley et al. Original citations provided by Ley et all do not support this claim.
Ley et al use this paragraph to justify 0.5% -
This above paragraph demonstrates Ley et al.'s lack of integrity. First, their estimates rest on citation 23, a study that is not about porn use. The stdudy specifically stated that, "We had not asked about pornography." Instead, it was about sexual experiences, fantasies and urges. In other words, this study has no place in a "porn addiction" review, and all of the artful statistical chicanery that follows is meaningless.
That said, it's worth noting that Ley, Prause and Finn cherry-picked from the irrelevant study's results. Nearly 13% of men and 7% of women reported out of control sexual experiences, but Ley et al. ignored those percentages and only mentioned that 0.8% of men and 0.6% of women reported that their "actual sexual behavior had interfered with their lives." Porn use is not sex. Problematic porn use therefore exists in some people who believe that no "actual sexual behavior [is] interfering with their lives."
Ley et al. next make the groundless leap that problematic porn use is always a subset of "actual sexual behavior that interferes with users' lives," and estimate that porn problems might affect 0.58 % of men and 0.43 % of women in the USA. Ley et al.'s own source (citation 24) says that experts estimated (in 2012) that 8–17% of Internet pornography users were addicted.
In contrast with the Ley et al.'s trivial estimates, the researchers in " Viewing Internet Pornography: For Whom is it Problematic, How, and Why?" found that,
approximately 20%–60% of the sample who view pornography find it to be problematic depending on the domain of interest. In this study, the amount of viewing did not predict the level of problems experienced.
Ley et al.'s purposefully misleading calculations also assume that everyone with porn addiction seeks treatment. In fact, it's likely that only a small percentage do. This is just one of many examples of misrepresentations by Ley et al.
Please do not cite the Ley review as a source. Instead cite post-internet era studies specifically on porn use or porn addiction. Chrislyte ( talk) 00:27, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I don't say that the marked sources would be low-quality, but per WP:MEDRS we should refrain from using primary sources for verifying medical claims. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused. The existing article cites an off-the-wall primary source by Nicole Prause ("
http://www.socioaffectiveneuroscipsychol.net/index.php/snp/article/view/20770/28995" -- a study which has no actual findings, and has been critiqued in the peer-reviewed literature:
http://www.socioaffectiveneuroscipsychol.net/index.php/snp/article/view/23833/32589), and yet I cannot cite a primary resource from Cambridge University conducted by the top neuroscience addiction researchers in the world, backed up by a thorough recent review that it aligns with? This is unbelievable. I think it's time to appeal this to to other critics, don't you?
I am happy to explain my edits, and just took a break first. The videos were removed because the first is based on the Prause study I just mentioned, which reached conclusions entirely unsupported by the actual "findings," and has been critiqued for this reason. The video about it gives the public a false impression of the state of the research on porn addiction. The second video shows anything but a consensus, so it is no support whatsoever for the page as it currently stands. Therefore it, too, adds confusion. It's at least more accurate than the first.
The only brain study [medical research] on porn addicts [compulsive porn users] needs to appear on this page about porn addiction. I'm sure any medical doctor will agree.
I will restore my edits as they are justified and quite reasonable.
Chrislyte ( talk) 18:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I know this is all a game for you, but as I'm sure someone will be reviewing this, I need to clarify. The article cites TWO Prause items, one a study (primary) and one a review. I am referring to the former.
In any case, you have not addressed my substantive concerns. What of the primary and secondary sources about internet porn addiction that you keep removing without justification? Chrislyte ( talk) 18:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
That is certainly appropriate for the primary Prause source, but not for the Cambridge study. I've asked for a third opinion and will do so for this section too. Chrislyte ( talk) 19:28, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
The asam.org reference has nothing to do with this discussion. Chrislyte ( talk) 20:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I have clarified that the DSM has never considered "internet pornography addiction" using its required procedures, and left the comment about the fact that it was mentioned along with the observation that there was, as yet, insufficient evidence to include it.
This should resolve our differences. Chrislyte ( talk) 17:50, 1 August 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
This should resolve our differences...on this DSM point. Chrislyte ( talk) 17:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
![]() |
If some aspect of WP or a WP article is deficient we should not use that as a reason for further substandard entries. That said, within an individual article we should have some parity. This Prause source [15] is not a review and should either be removed along with the source in question or both sources should be allowed with an inline attribution or tag indicating that they are not MEDRS compliant. — Keithbob • Talk • 16:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC) |
The journal the first Prause article is in is not even
MEDLINE indexed and so raises questions about its quality. Are other journals in this area MEDLINE indexed? What is the impact factor? Are the findings of this source in line with higher quality sources?
Zad
68
03:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
My edits to this article have been rejected and so I return to the initial common sense realities of life outside of Wikipedia.
The title of this article is a misnomer - It is only an opinion, POV, that adult erotica is "Pornography", that it is "obscene and disgusting". Use the words "depravity" and "corruption" as well. Except that it is not "pornographic", "depraved" and "corrupt" when people engage in penetrative and oral sex in real life. That is considered normal. Here lies the ironic fact that all negative references to so-called "pornography" represent the worst sort of hypocrisy.
Let's say that someone accesses Erotica 18 hours per day, and at the same time listens to their favourite music at the same time. Will that person be accused of engaging in "Music Addiction" --- no, that person will only de indicted of "pornography addiction". Incidentally, listening to music all day long every day is considered normal.
Adult Erotica is on the move all the time, new performers, new directors and new films are being introduced all the time. Adult Erotica is a living thing, on the move all the time where no two days are the same. Just like television programmes are on the move all the time, with new soap operas, new dramas, new game shows, new everything for people to watch. Nobody calls watching television an addiction because people want to know what's new in television. The very same thing applies the cinema and music. People do EXACTLY THE SAME THING with Adult Erotica. It's just another medium, and just as big a source of tax for the governments.
The fabric of this article is Blimpish Prudery because it subscribes to the opinion that the subject matter is "pornographic", "obscene" and "disgusting" because the visual art of showing sex is wrong and the people who access it are in the wrong over some moral reasons.
In the meantime, life goes on in contradiction to what this article is all about. This Wikipedia article remains unable to justify its central argument. Nobody in the entire history of the Human Race has ever been "damaged" by accessing Adult Erotica, whether for 4 hours per day or for 14 hours per day. Adult Erotica has always been part of Human History. From Stone Age Paintings to Greek and Roman art to sepia photography to digital modern times. Likewise, the objection to this material has always been in evidence, this Wikipedia article acting as a testimony to that fact. Dickie birdie ( talk) 10:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
If you think the article is biased, point us to reliable sources that can make it more balanced. Do not blank the page, nor accuse other editors of prudery.
And in this case the article is less concerned with pornographic works and their contents, and more concerned with the effects on the addicts' lives: "difficulty in general life functioning". Dimadick ( talk) 23:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
There is no evidence in existence to justify this claim. Nothing. It's something that belongs primarily to English-language culture. Visit other countries. Broaden your horizons. Dickie birdie ( talk) 14:33, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
It damaged me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.232.49 ( talk) 00:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: According to [16], the blog seems legit (belonging to mainstream scientists). Yup, it redirects there. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
A Critique on “The Great Porn Experiment”
Sex Supplement: UBC researcher doubts "Great Porn Experiment" hypothesis
Op-ed by Neuroscientists stating “Fight the New Drug” Misrepresents Science
What do you think of the TEDx talk "The Great porn Experiment"?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.159.33.167 ( talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
|
@ Cheeseypopcorn7088: Either there is porn addiction or people don't suffer from watching porn is a false dilemma. There are other options, such as OCD/impulse control disorder. So it is not that porn addiction is competing against non-existence of symptoms, but it is competing against other models which are preferred by experts, or better account for the available evidence. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 10:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
The opinion of the associate professor E.T.M. Laan renders the majority view, namely that most sexologists do not believe in pornography addiction. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:52, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
These being said, the Zeitgeist seems unfavorable to the concept of addiction. This is, medical and psychological research prefers the model of compulsion to the model of addiction, so there is extremely small chance that pornography addiction would get accepted, i.e. as being an addiction instead of being a compulsion. This also applies to sex addiction and masturbation addiction. It's the way things are, see WP:RGW. I know that addiction is very popular in non-scientific press, but no more than that: in the scientific community it seems to have lost the dispute. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Note that the word addiction is not applied as a diagnostic term in this classification, although it is in common usage in many countries to describe severe problems related to compulsive and habitual use of substances.
— DSM-5, p. 485
Pornography addiction is a very popular concept for some parties: the idea of casting every positive-reinforcing activity as addiction appeals to a very American puritan instinct, as well as offering opportunities to researchers to expand their work, with both types of appeal being linked to a genuine desire to do good.
I don't have any medical expertise, so I cannot weigh in on this one way or another. I'm certainly not going to get involved in turf wars between neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists, and whether one arm of the profession can pull rank on another.
Fortunately, we have the NPOV policy to deal with these sorts of cases, and we have a policy of weighing official consensus of experts based on systematic reviews, meta-analyses, etc, as stronger evidence than recent research, regardless of how valid or otherwise it may be. I think we can regard the position of the ICD-10 and DSM-V, which represents the cautious and considered position of the medical profession in its entirety, as definitive for the time being, and not attempt to litigate the issue here. If and when medical consensus changes, of course, so should this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 13:55, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Treatment:
Research is ongoing on the role of the NMDA receptor system and it's role in substance abuse, neuroplasticity changes, sensitization, cue responses, neurodegenerative diseases and excititory toxicity. One promising option for preventing these same effects due to heavy porn addiction which appears to be the main cause of the rapid change in males who have sexual dysfunction under the age of 40.
References
@ Anastasia.Shylnov: MDPI is not a WP:MEDRS-compliant publisher (in the past was on Beall's List). In other words, it is indeed a review, but not indexed for MEDLINE. Also if I have to guess the rest of the text is a copyright violation. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Anastasia.Shylnov, I reverted this because we need to stick to WP:MEDRS-compliant sources for biomedical material. For example, we should typically avoid primary sources. See WP:Primary sources and WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
Also, peer review is not the same thing as literature review. Please read and study WP:MEDRS. It is clear about the type of sourcing you should be using, and this begins with its introduction: "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies. Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content – as such sources often include unreliable or preliminary information, for example early in vitro results which don't hold in later clinical trials." You should be looking for secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources. You can look on Google Books if that will help. It often helps me. If you haven't looked on PubMed, look on there as well. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 11:22, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
See
http://www.psychcrime.org/news/index.php?vd=2902&t=Former+Yale-NYU+Psychiatric+Researcher+Alexander+Neumeister+Convicted%2C+Sentenced Basically, his advocacy for a diagnosis of porn addiction was based upon faked data. So, if plagiarism is regarded as a
mortal sin in the academia, then faking data should be regarded as the sin against the Holy Spirit. There were some Wikipedians who intentionally faked
WP:Verifiable information or faked
WP:RS, they were indeffed and when they asked to be unblocked, admins considered them irredeemable. And to top it off, fabricating sources? I've never seen anyone come back from that.
said
Yamla. All papers listed at
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=neumeister+site%3Ayourbrainonporn.com&oq=neumeister+site%3Ayourbrainonporn.com should be
plonked. Once a fraudster, always a fraudster: none of his papers can be trusted. There was a similar case in the Netherlands, see
Diederik Stapel. Confirmation from
https://retractionwatch.com/2020/09/16/springer-nature-journal-takes-eight-months-to-retract-paper-after-us-government-misconduct-finding/
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
05:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
About psychologist Gary Wilson
: Wilson is not a psychologist (does he have any diploma I don't know of?), he is not a professor (never was), he is not a scientist (never was). And, above all, he does not have evidence for his claims, he just claims such claims because he has religious faith. As I have previously stated, But Wilson does not participate in the scientific debate, since he does not belong to the scientific community. These are facts. The consensus seems to be that porn OCD is extremely infrequent. What are more frequent are delusions like "porn made me bald/psychotic" or "if I stop fapping I get superpowers". Wilson neither has a PhD in a germane academic field, nor does he pass
publish or perish. So Wilson does not write
WP:RS. He was a teacher, not a professor.
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
11:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Searching at PubMed for meta-analyses and reviews for the keyword pornography
, and excluding the papers not indexed for MEDLINE (especially
MDPI), there is not much going on, the news are slow. I also found Kang, Xiaoxi; Handayani, Dini Oktarina Dwi; Chong, Pei Pei; Acharya, U. Rajendra (2020). "Profiling of pornography addiction among children using EEG signals: A systematic literature review". Computers in biology and medicine. 125. Elsevier BV: 103970.
doi:
10.1016/j.compbiomed.2020.103970.
ISSN
0010-4825.
PMID
32892114., but it so badly begs the question that porn addiction exists and that it has nefarious effects upon children that it cannot be considered reliable. It's fearmongering about porn and fearmongering about internet. It so heavily relies upon
petitio principii that it's a joke.
WP:REDFLAG. It's like claiming they can detect
Bigfoot witnesses based on EEG. First produce evidence that Bigfoot exists, and we'll talk afterwards about witnesses. In doubt, we already have
WP:RS that the jury is still out on the existence of the porn addiction, and some scientists speculate we will know the answer by Christmas 2025. Anyway, DSM-IV and DSM-5 have deprecated the term addiction, and ICD-11 employs the model of a sexual behavior compulsion, not the model of an addiction. So, yeah, porn compulsion or porn control impulse disorder seem much more likely to be recognized in the future as diagnoses than porn addiction. With the specification that porn OCD is considered to be extremely rare (epidemiologically infrequent) and that the claims that porn induces erectile dysfunction never got supported by enough evidence.
And what is more frequent are people self-diagnosing with porn addiction or being diagnosed with porn addiction by self-appointed experts which also happen to offer quite expensive therapy for porn addiction, which is not covered by the medical insurance since it's not an officially recognized diagnosis, and there are no recognized criteria for diagnosing people with such disorder. Accompanied by VIPs who claimed they did not cheat on their wives, but they were sex addicted, so they couldn't have behave properly.
The WP:BURDEN is not upon me to show that a term deprecated by the DSM and rejected by the ICD is unlikely to become a valid diagnosis in the near future. The jury is still out whether the whole phenomenon, which might be called porn addiction, porn compulsion, or porn impulse control disorder, is real. Therefore, seen by the WP:RULES of Wikipedia, claiming that Bigfoot exists is similar to claiming that porn addiction exists. While it is not settled that the whole phenomenon does not exist, it is highly unlikely that it will be called an addiction. In respect to the existence of the phenomenon, I have no dog in that fight, I don't have the science to decide such matter, and my opinion thereupon is irrelevant. What I can tell you for sure it is that it is extremely unlikely to have a diagnosis of porn adiction (with the accent upon addiction). Tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
“Historically the term ‘sex addiction’ has been used by white males to absolve themselves from personal and legal responsibility for their behaviors,” one expert said. “It is often used as an excuse to pathologize misogyny.”
— NBC News, 'Sex addiction' isn't an actual disorder, but white men often get excused by using it, experts say
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Hajela's article was not even indexed for PubMed, let alone MEDLINE, and Hilton's article was not indexed for MEDLINE. See WP:REDFLAG and WP:MEDRS. This shows that criticism of DSM's decision wasn't published in mainstream medical journals. Both of those journals are now defunct.
What about other sources mentioned in the article? For a start, most of those don't pretend to be research or novel contributions to medical science. The germane guideline is WP:PARITY. The two sides of the debate aren't equal, see WP:GEVAL. Why is that? Because the claim of porn addiction it is not a claim usually championed by sexologists, but by vocal outsiders. If anything, sexologists push for calmness in this debate and for collecting adequate evidence in order to eventually assert it in the future. I have cited a source which says it is not a claim of sexologists, but of the religious right. So, it is rather a political claim than a claim supported by mainstream science.
This means that Wikipedia does not give equal merit to the medical orthodoxy and to fringe medical science. Nor gives them equal coverage.
And about the effects of porn watching upon children/teens, there isn't much evidence, there is instead much speculation about brain plasticity. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
war against pornographyof the LDS Church. This is apparent in the fact he was spewing paranoid conspiracy theories against the legacy of Alfred Kinsey.
Experts in addictionsounds as time is passing increasingly like
experts in phlogiston. The paradigm of addiction is increasingly being deprecated. Sounds more like a paradigm of the 1960's. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:33, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
the concept of addiction has been deprecated since DSM-IV, they cannot turn the clock back;
nonsubstance addiction(s)
Behavioral disorder (also called behavioral addiction) not related to any substance of abuse that shares some features with substance-induced addiction.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.adolescence.2017.04.006 admits there are no experimental data
You might ask why Hilton wrote that article.
Destigmatizing human sexual expression and experiences as well as creating and maintaining safe space for those who have been traditionally marginalized are essential practices for AASECT members who are predominately mental health practitioners and educators. This overarching goal compels AASECT to disavow any therapeutic and educational effort that, even if unwittingly, violates or impinges on AASECT’s vision of human rights and social justice.
I never said that Wikipedia should strive to represent the views of editors. Rather what I said is that since Wikipedia strives to represent views in proportion to the coverage they receive in reliable secondary sources, editors who let their views bleedthrough into their editing are a bigger problem when their views are outside of the mainstream then when their views are within the mainstream. For example if an editor is a Nazi who believes whites are the superior race, when they try to force this view into our articles, this is a significant problem. By comparison, if an editor believes that there is no such thing as a superior race, it's far less of a problem when their editing to articles is biased by this particular view. It's not because there are few Nazis on Wikipedia, and most editors are not Nazis. It's because sources overwhelming reject Nazi idealogy. The fact that our editors also overwhelming do so is great, but was never part of my point. The rest of your commment supports this, so I'm not even sure why you're challenging me. Nil Einne ( talk) 05:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
it is indeed probable that more harm and misery have been caused by men determined to use coercion to stamp out a moral evil than by men intent on doing evil.
— Hayek
porn addictionis hate speech. That it was since its inception and it cannot change. It is simply a label meant to promote discrimination. It's like selling
soap made of Jewish fat—regardless of whether it's a myth, such soap is sold in order to promote white supremacy.
the Devil forced me to do it, but they fall for
porn forced me to do it. And then lots of money flow for scientifically unsound therapies which purport to cure people of porn. Such clinics are quackery.
porn addictionis a label that has been abused and oversold, it is irreparably broken. Words matter, language matters. ICD-11 chose for a diagnosis of CSBD, which is not the same as
porn addictionor
sex addiction. Same as a KKK robe is associated with racist lynchings and no longer with traditional garments of Spanish penitents.
Porn addictionis an idea which has been wholly compromised; it is irredeemable. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Seen https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aasam.org+pornography&client=firefox-b-d , ASAM is particularly quiet about porn addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 10:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It seems that DSM-5-TR, the Bible of psychiatry since March 2022, will cream YBOP/TGPE/NoFap/FTND. Since I don't want to repeat what I wrote, see Talk:NoFap#DSM-5-TR. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:12, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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The article says "The status of pornography addiction as an addictive disorder, rather than simply a compulsivity, has been hotly contested." in contrast to this which indicates it isn't contested at all:
"Websites and advocacy groups that promote and encourage identification as porn addicts are doing harm to their followers, and can become like the hucksters promoting naturopathic treatment despite federal medical groups identifying such treatments as ineffective and potentially harmful. Ultimately, all should be held accountable for their inaccurate, outdated, and exploitative actions. article continues after advertisement
It is noteworthy that in this research, and in the numerous commentaries in response, no one is defending the porn-addiction model. None of the researchers looking at data on porn-related problems have chosen to argue that an addiction model or treatment strategy is appropriate. To be sure, some researchers still defend a compulsive model, or suggest that pornography itself is too broad a concept to be neatly captured by a single theory. The editors of the Archives of Sexual Behavior invited commentaries on this article only from researchers, who must argue based on science, as opposed to anecdote. None of them argue that porn is addictive, that it changes the brain or one's sexuality, or that the use of porn leads to tolerance, withdrawal, or other addiction-related syndromes. Put simply, while the nuance of porn-related problems is still being sussed out, the idea that porn can be called addictive is done, at least in the halls of sexual science." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too
This article can cause harm
"This means that the large-scale promotion of the concept of “porn addiction,” in the media, on the Internet, by self-proclaimed experts and by an industry that preys off of an unrecognized disorder, appear to actually be hurting people. By telling people that their use of porn constitutes a disease, they are promulgating suffering and anxiety, instilling into people that their use of pornography means there is something wrong with them, and that this use has potentially dire consequences." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201509/your-belief-in-porn-addiction-makes-things-worse<
See also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/porn-addiction
Gripdamage ( talk) 23:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
It is properly called propaganda, since it is pseudoscientific and antiscientific. Besides, it's sourced. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
CSBD from ICD-11 has explicitly ruled out addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
My take has been expressed at [18]. What I have learned since then? That a diagnosis of porn addiction is highly unlikely. Note that I am not opposed to a diagnosis of porn OCD, or CSBD. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Okay, what's wrong with it? People who conflate depression, OCD, borderline, or religious guilt with porn addiction should not get treated for porn consumption, but for depression, OCD, borderline, or religious guilt. A psychiatrist is not like a waiter who brings one the demanded dish, but they are actively in charge of treatment.
People who take medicines and lose capability of erection should ask their MD for changing their medicines. They should not quit their medication, just change it. Refraining from PMO does not heal real diseases, so it's not a substitute for medication.
People who have marriage problems because of porn use should consume the porn together with their partner. And porn is rarely the single reason which breaks a marriage. Perhaps it is the most click-baiting title for an article, but never the final reason for divorce.
For these reasons organized skepticism sees porn addiction as lacking epistemic warrant. You'd think that 22 years since broadband internet, there would have been plenty of evidence for sex addiction or porn addiction. But DSM-5-TR explicitly says it's not the case.
Besides, the label of porn addiction has been tainted with praying the gay away, promoting suicide, telling the court "porn made me do it" in order to dodge personal responsibility, white supremacy, and so on. Totalitarian countries/movements have a taboo about masturbation and pornography.
I don't think that YBOP was an ill-willed enterprise, but it is scientifically misguided. Their narrative about "porn shills" who write scientific research as denialism is just a conspiracy theory. The only MDs paid by Big Porn are those detecting STDs in porn actors, and they are not the ones who write porn research. YBOP's failure was indiscriminately collecting research which supports their POV, regardless of how dodgy the papers are.
What about ICD-11 with CSBD? While the underlying literature are respectable studies about addiction, there is no sex research therein, which is a big WP:REDFLAG.
YBOP and NoFap broke the golden rule of patient organizations: if you have to disagree, disagree respectfully, but never seek to vilify the scientific and medical authorities. Their strategy is rhetorically effective in respect to their fan base, but cuts no ice in mainstream science. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Theweasalwordsfinder: Removal of "controversial" does not abide by WP:NPOV. Further, 94 WP:RS are WP:CITED inside our article. Why you find that number insufficient?
Why is it controversial? According to the American Psychiatric Association there is no such thing as porn addiction. And even ICD-11 (which AFAIK is still not applicable in US) has been lambasted for the fact that there is no sex research in CSBD. Without such research it is a diagnosis established by fiat, i.e. not evidence-based. tgeorgescu ( talk) 09:15, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I reviewed that section: "The role pornography watching plays in the development of children and youth is basically unknown, due to a lack of empirical studies. There are considerable ethical problems with performing such research. Since those problems are a huge obstacle, it is likely that such research will not be allowed, thus possibly it could never be known. Rory Reid ( UCLA) declared "Universities don't want their name on the front page of a newspaper for an unethical study exposing minors to porn.".
The first Source [1], only considers effects on adolescents brain and not development of children and youth, nor are children mentioned in that context in the source. There is research about adolescent and effects of porn, just not in the field of brain effects (for review see [2] [3]), which goes even back to the year 1973 [4].
The second source [5] doesnt mention anything stated above, experimental research about pornography and adolescent are ethicaly not possible [6] (page 3.) which dosent mean that no research is possible, surveys are possible,
And the third source [7] is just an unrelyable medical source.
I would therefore say that, that section should be deleted. The Other Karma ( talk) 18:52, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
only considers effects on adolescents brain and not development of children and youth, nor are children mentioned in that context in the sourceis a contradiction, I cannot make heads or tails out of it. Anyway, its conclusion is "The literature suggests that the adolescent brain may indeed be more sensitive to sexually explicit material, but due to a lack of empirical studies this question cannot be answered definitively."
About
assumed absence of studies on the effects of pornography on children meant it had no effect—no, I was not assuming that. I simply stated that no evidence=no knowledge. So, it has no known effects. And, yes, the authors of the review have an opinion, but there is no particular reason to trust their opinion, since they admit it is not based upon empirical evidence. And they don't even say if that's good or bad. Simply because young adults get different norms and values, it cannot be automatically equated with "harmful". Just because pornography disproportionately favors one side of the culture wars doesn't mean it's harmful. This boils down to: the claim that watching pornography is bad for teenagers is a political rather than scientific claim. Zillmann'sdecreased respect for long-term monogamous relationships, and an attenuated desire for procreationare politically undesirable effects, not medically undesirable effects. About the edit, see https://revisesociology.com/2016/05/29/sociology-value-freedom/ So, these are not medically or sociologically undesirable effects, but politically undesirable, as seen by the GOP. There are lots of progressives who disagree that these effects are morally or politically undesirable. So, yeah, Zillmann conflated the judgment of empirical science with his own political activism. He was entirely free to support conservative politics, but that should never be conflated with science. It's none of the business of sociology to tell you if such effects are desirable or undesirable. Those who propagate such crude moralism are not writing sociology. Nor psychiatry. Any undergraduate student from the sociology and psychology faculties which I have attended could tell you for a fact that sociologists and psychologists are not getting paid to write such moralistic craps.Even if you wholeheartedly support family values, you will agree that in a free country other grownups are entitled to disagree with your choice.
This jeremiad is entirely fitting for the language of 19th century sociology:
Prolonged consumption of common pornography spawns doubts about the value of marriage as an essential societal institution and about its future viability.Such language is obsolete by the standards of the 1960's.And the various studies which did empirically investigate the matter (e.g. Miranda Horvath and Marleen Katayama-Klaassen) put their readers on a steady diet of low correlation and causality cannot be shown. tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
WP:REDFLAG because
To begin, the vast majority of research utilized nonexperimental, cross-sectional designs. This type of methodology tells us nothing about the causal impact of SEM and SVM exposure on DV and SV attitudes and behaviors.Rodenhizer and Edwards (2017). So, welcome to the world of medical porn research, wherein causality can seldom be shown.Doran and Price (2014) is not indexed at all for PubMed.
About
Research shows a clear association between pornography and sexual and dating violence. Across 43 studies, teens and young adults who consume more sexually explicit and sexually violent media were six times more likely to be sexually aggressive toward otherswe know the mantra correlation does not imply causation, but the quote offered is too bold and cocky, since it suggests much too much a causal linkbetween pornography and sexual and dating violence. I mean: for the medical professional, it doesn't, but for the "laity", it does. Even journalists who lack scientific literacy could be fooled by such incendiary statements. It takes high scientific literacy to see through such statements. So, such statements are misleading because we write for a general audience. We do not write for experts.Basically, there are no empirical data about the impact of porn upon youth. Most studies thereupon are navel-gazing, instead of responsible statistical processing of empirical data.
E.g. this is a PhD research thereupon from the Netherlands: https://www.uva.nl/binaries/content/assets/uva/nl/onderzoek/promoveren/samenvattingen/2020/01/samenvatting-klaassen-marleen.pdf
Its conclusion:
low statistical correlationand causality cannot be shown.See its precedent upon https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/14/children-who-access-internet-porn-more-likely-to-have-sex-younger_n_7365794.html Miranda Horvath stated about this: "But it is not possible to establish causation from correlational studies, and to say whether pornography is changing or reinforcing attitudes." Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22987051
Positive knowledge (as opposed to speculation or moralism) is extremely hard to come by, and to the extent that it exists, it does not support the bold claims of the moralists.
Or, as the biologist Steve Jones, Emeritus Professor of Genetics at University College London said about something else "a classic case of Arts Faculty science. Never mind the hypothesis, give me the data, and there aren’t any".
The problem with researching porn effects upon teens is, as Rory Reid ( UCLA) declared "Universities don't want their name on the front page of a newspaper for an unethical study exposing minors to porn." Suppose an evil dictator would solve such problem, well, this would be only solving the minor problem. The major problem is finding a control group, i.e. teens who have never watched porn. Even if those teens take an oath on the Bible that they have never watched porn, that still isn't conclusive evidence that they have never watched porn. Teens lie a lot, especially if they have to tell about their own porn consumption while their parents are religiously conservative.
Peter and Valkenburg (2016) 20 years review: causality cannot be shown. Brown and Wisco (2019) review: idem ditto. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
To begin, the vast majority of research utilized nonexperimental, cross-sectional designs. This type of methodology tells us nothing about the causal impact of SEM and SVM exposure on DV and SV attitudes and behaviors.Rodenhizer and Edwards (2017). So, welcome to the world of medical porn research, wherein causality can seldom be shown.
too emotional: I write this with passion for mainstream science, but I don't have personally a dog in the fight. I keep it at an abstract level (scientific knowledge). I know that Wikipedia isn't for my personal ideas. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Porn research is often boring or tedious:
In short: there are no spectacular results. tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:44, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Jm33746: The medical orthodoxy largely sees neurofeedback as quackery. If she is an expert in neurofeedback, she is an expert in woo.
Hint: "specialized in neurofeedback" means WP:FRINGE, and the diagnosis of porn addiction is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association. Nor is it recognized by the World Health Organization. So, she pretends to treat people for an illness having behind it as much evidence as morgellons and electromagnetic hypersensitivity.
Claims such as “(porn) damages your brain” and “it is like an occasional heroin habitat, it does almost the same thing to the brain” “it highjacks the reward center in the brain “ are rank pseudoscience, so they violate the website policy WP:PSCI.
When a certain PhD holder advises on YouTube other therapists to put a diagnosis of porn addiction, "since it is recognized by ICD-11" and there is a backdoor in DSM-5-TR, she likely advises them to commit insurance fraud: ICD-11 does not apply to US (yet), and ICD-11 does not recognize a diagnosis of "porn addiction". It is unlikely that ICD-11 will be adopted by US sooner than 2025. So, ICD-11 does not recognize it, and even if it did, that would still be void for a least a couple of years. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
research, anyway her claims you added to the article are against website policy.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 January 2023 and 3 April 2023. Further details are available
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article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Nhollingsworth ( talk) 20:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Hajela's article was not even indexed for PubMed, let alone MEDLINE, and Hilton's article was not indexed for MEDLINE. See WP:REDFLAG and WP:MEDRS. This shows that criticism of DSM's decision wasn't published in mainstream medical journals. Both of those journals are now defunct.
What about other sources mentioned in the article? For a start, most of those don't pretend to be research or novel contributions to medical science. The germane guideline is WP:PARITY. The two sides of the debate aren't equal, see WP:GEVAL. Why is that? Because the claim of porn addiction it is not a claim usually championed by sexologists, but by vocal outsiders. If anything, sexologists push for calmness in this debate and for collecting adequate evidence in order to eventually assert it in the future. I have cited a source which says it is not a claim of sexologists, but of the religious right. So, it is rather a political claim than a claim supported by mainstream science.
This means that Wikipedia does not give equal merit to the medical orthodoxy and to fringe medical science. Nor gives them equal coverage.
And about the effects of porn watching upon children/teens, there isn't much evidence, there is instead much speculation about brain plasticity. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
And, yup, while being an anti-pornography crusader is not a reason to dismiss a scientific paper out of hand, the lack of MEDLINE indexation, the fact that the journal is now defunct and it did not have a long history (to an expert librarian, that means something), and the WP:GEVAL policy, Hilton's paper should not be used to give the lie to DSM-5. If anything, DSM-5-TR gave the lie to Hilton's paper.
My analysis is the following: since DSM-5 agreed with Prause, not with Hilton, that was Prause's beginner's luck. After nine years, DSM-5-TR was published, this time it is no longer beginner's luck, but the result of mature scientific debate, and APA even chose to discard the diagnosis of CSBD which already existed in ICD-11. Now the concept of porn addiction is on its death bed, and if DSM-6 will also reject it, porn addiction will be dead in the water. Then porn addiction will become the laughing stock of worldwide psychiatry (and even at this moment it isn't considerably better).
Hilton lost the scientific dispute, and Wikipedia never had much sympathy for its losing factions. tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
The gist is that Hilton is a WP:FRINGE peddler, and, according to WP:GEVAL, Wikipedia cannot say otherwise. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
https://neurosciencenews.com/neuroscience-pornography-brain-15354/amp/ Jm33746 ( talk) 22:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Since both ICD-11 and DSM-5-TR have rejected the diagnosis, should porn addiction be characterized as an obsolete scientific theory? tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
the mental health community at large is divided, which contradicts "fringe and largely abandoned/discredited". Its body says:
Compulsive or extreme use of pornography is well documented in various studies, and, despite the controversies in the feld on whether or not pornography addiction is a “real” disorder, it is abundantly clear that some individuals do experience dysregulation in their use of pornography. The paper is a secondary source when it comes to the academically dominant model (dysregulated porn use caused by
Individual Differences (e.g., impulsivity, sensation-seeking, low self-control, emotional dysregulation, coping deficits, but a primary source for its second, proposed pathway (
pornography problems due to moral incongruence). I'll note that the authors present this new pathway as a refinement of their previous "perceived addiction" concept (as opposed to "real" addiction), so they're a primary source on the "perceived addiction" concept too. Their meta-analysis does conclude that
pornography use itselfdoesn't induce dependence (unlike drugs), which debunks some of the claims made by the YourBrainOnPorn people.
@ Rhosnes: CSBD is not an addiction at all. It decidedly, explicitly rejects the model of addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
According to this websiteWikipedia doesn't consider such websites to be reliable sources, for good reason. MrOllie ( talk) 20:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Porn increase sexual assault Jm33746 ( talk) 22:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
References
In other words, five studies found that the sexual violence perpetrators had seen less pornography than other criminals.
This is, by some US politicians, never by the American Psychiatric Association. US psychiatrists did not jump the bandwagon. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:56, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
If that seems contradictory, the reality is that what the 5th Circuit is saying, in a truly partisan way, is that when Republicans compel speech, that’s fine. It’s not only fine, but the court doesn’t even need to explain why it passes constitutional muster. When Democrats highlight content that could lead to harm for websites to look at and decide for themselves if they want to host it, that is the worst censorship scandal in the history of America, and the government should be barred from speaking to the companies at all.
[22] is WP:COI. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why subjects lower than "Opponents of Pornography Addiction" don't appear on the page, and in the "edit page" they do? I don't know much editing on Wikipedia and I think one of you who knows should fix this problem.
People can edit it. - Can't touch
Hey, i'm removing the line: "Many informal "self-tests" have been written (for example, here), but do not appear to have been normed or statistically validated." from the beginning. Not only is it an unneccisary statement, but the site it links to seems to be one of very few self-tests available, and the site is incredibly religously charged. To say it hasn't been normed or statistically validated is an understatement, the website it links to is simply a checklist for yourself (not a 'self-test' at all).
Is this NPOV?
No, it really hasn't. It's still blatantly POV. In my opinion, for what it's worth, but that seems to be the general idea of a bunch of people on the talk page. — Simetrical ( talk) 22:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Removed from the article:
Can we have something other than a report of an un-named "series of studies" here? Cites of the actual studies would be a good first step. -- The Anome 08:00, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Remaining in the article:
I very much doubt that an endorsement from Bundy particularly advances the anti-porn position. -- The Anome 08:07, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For a discussion of Ted Bundy's interview, see the BBC Channel 4 documentary 'Natural Porn Killer,' ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2334295434685794228&q=Ted+Bundy) which basically argues that Ted Bundy faked this position and that the pornography-escalation was not a factor in precipitating his murders. There is, however, a study with rural communities that were gradually introduced to TV that show a drastic increase in violence within a year of having increased violent imagery (absent in neighboring communities that didn't get the TV yet). (Don't have time to look now but I found it cited on anti-TV sites.) Therefore, it seems to me in keeping with anecdotal evidence that pornography can facilitate or trigger violent excesses by people so disposed.
From the article (my emphasis):
What evidence precisely? Cites, please. -- The Anome 08:11, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[Added later] Found this page with many links (looks to be mainly anti-porn) with numerous quoted studies and essays. Some may have some reliable information, perhaps someone could look into them.
http://www.medlina.com/pornography.htm
I would like to add a few words and see what comes back... a little background... i am writing a psychology paper on hypersexuality for school and i found this site. it is informative to have all of these opinions here to refer to for insite (im not gonna quote you or anything, but i wanted to thank you for the open talk) Thank you for writing out here what you feel inside.
I do think however that learning from anyone's mistakes is a big part of not ending up there yourself, so maybe we should listen to reformed serial killers advice (with caution, of course) more often. It is an important part of life to grow and learn. It's a plus that we don't have to be there ourselves inorder to benefit from the lesson. 69.231.113.109 21:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Agatha
As a journalist, it would be great if the person who wrote this article could possibly be objective. This is an encyclopedia which is supposed to be factual and objective. I did not come looking for this person's opinion. I came looking for some unbiast information to include in my newpaper article about pornography addiction.
Wikipedia needs to tighten up on its writers because they're slacking and it reflects badly on them.
Please, don't write to inform the public if you can't do right.
As a journalist, do you think you could learn to spell? Moreover, as a journalist do you think you could learn to contruct a sentence using English grammar correctly? I think your point is that this article isn't of a neutral view point. This is something already being discussed on this page with a view to rectification.
ShizuokaSensei
00:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The article does not provide any arguments supporting the point of view:
"Not everyone believes that pornography addiction exists, or that the harmful effects ascribed to it are real." Nerd65536 05:15, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What is needed is to use a scientific model for addiction. The doctor cited in the article is but a single source. I'd recommend using the DSM-IV-TR criteria for addiction -- namely habituation and withdrawl. Some of the finer points are covered in the definition, but it's not neutral in this piece.
apart from a german article (which may need some work still) there is no similar wikipedia-article in any other language. Why not translate it and edit some articles in french, spanish, ... Go Ahead!-- 213.6.4.89 22:48, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Once again, the spam filter is malfunctioning and blocking a slew of sites that were already on the page, but now have been put on the blacklist. I had to disable all links to post new content. When they fix it, someone please go through and add an h to each link (i.e. ttp:// -> http://) 69.243.41.28 02:13, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From the article:
Crikey! People using porn as an aid for masturbation? Surely not. I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! I always thought they used it as a reference for figure drawing; pardon me whilst I adjust my entire world-view. -- The Anome 10:01, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
I agree the article needs a good bit of work, esp. on NPOV. I just gave it a try on the Diagnosis section. I took out the occasional loaded adective, but mostly added actual citations and quotations of domain experts. I dropped the quote of examples from Cline's criteria, because they looked silly taken totally out of context, while Cline's article (to which I added a cite) is considerably more reasonable as a whole. He talks mostly about cases where extreme use of pornography seriously impacts a person's life and relationships -- sounds just about like addiction to anything else -- alcohol, drugs, golf....
Anyway, here's hoping adding some specifics and references improves the entry some.
Sderose 23:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed that section, because it seems redundant to me. Although it makes sense to include information about how the internet may have exacerbated the pornography addiction problem, the section didn't do that very well. It only described online pornography addiction as somehow a subset of pornography addiction. This is about as useful as having a section entitled "Beer Addiction" in an article on alcoholism. The Amazing Superking July 4, 2005 02:09 (UTC)
I think the disagreement here is between the people who use the primary meaning of "addiction" ("Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance" -- American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition), and those who believe that the secondary meaning ("The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.") justifies the use of the word to describe avid use of pornography, and make no distinction between the two meanings.
The second definition of "addiction" ("habit or compulsion") is figurative and could be used to mean "to have a habit" in just about any situation ("I'm addicted to flying kites", "might as well face it, you're addicted to love").
This second usage is metaphorical, like saying "I'm starving", when you mean "I'm hungry". Now, in a medical context, starvation is well-defined: it involves lack of food to the point of illness or death. The secondary usage of "starving" is not literal, and should not be confused with the first.
Similarly, addiction has a precise meaning in a medical context. In my opinion, the first meaning is the correct one when we are talking about medical matters: it is well defined and very specific ("physiological and psychological", "habit-forming substance").
However, once you begin to conflate the two meanings, you start to blur meaning to the point of nonsense. Suggesting that addiction(2) is synonymous with addiction(1), simply because the two senses share a common word, is just as careless as suggesting that starving(2) is the same as starving(1), and leads to the same sort of logical error.
Now, there's nothing wrong in principle with the concept of excessive use of pornography, and nothing wrong with suggesting that it is a problem, or that something could, or should, be done about it (although that clearly is, and should be reported as, a POV). It's just that we just shouldn't call it an "addiction".
Now, I know that some people do consider that addiction(2) to pornography use is actually driven by a form of internal chemical addiction(1). While this does not involve the logic error above, this is a strong that is far from being a mainstream medical or scientific view. Exceptional claims in general require exceptional evidence; for NPOV, this should require both detailed cites of sources for this POV, and the evidence they cite for these claims. Unfortunately, ising the word "addiction" in the title of this article begs the question, and blurs the issue at the outset.
As a first attempt to resolve this, I suggest this article should be renamed to something that does not contain the word "addiction": perhaps " excessive use of pornography"? The article could then discuss the issue, including the contentious one as to whether high levels of pornography use actually do involve a form of internal chemical addiction(1), not to mention whether it is possible to define what "excessive" means in this context, without begging the question in the title. -- The Anome 09:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No. The word 'addiction' is fine in this context. A gambling addication and a heroin addiction are very different problems, yet our calling them both addiction does not cause us any confusion. The term 'excessive' is not much use: last week I looked at several hours worth of porn. I had time, it did not cost me much it was not a problem. This week I have looked at less porn yet have just decided its a problem. The fact I am not able to control my behaviour is the problem. The question of whether or not it's excessive is a red herring.
This article MUST be redone without the christain moralizing. (As others have allready stated) All of the links are to religious websites, whose typical solution is: "put your faith in God and respect sex as his gift to humanity." -- I can promise that this will be met with derision by most of the people who come to this article looking for help. Such overt moralizing deminishes the credibilty of the project. People have decided want help to give up, want help to give up -- not cohercing into your church while they are down.
Most of the problems attributed to porn are also prevailent in other activities. (Eg. Porn and domestic violence Vs Hollywood and violence, ...or... Porn and the exploitation of women Vs the cosmetic industry and the exploitation of women.) There are lots of others... Okay, so these are problems, but their nature is complex and not relevent to the addict. Not because the addict is callous and uncaring, but by the time he has searched wiki for 'Porn Addict' he has allready decided he wants to give up, and is looking for methods by which he can achieve this not further demonisation.
-Will (Editors: I would like a gap here to seperate my contribution from the one below.)
There are a few problems, not the least of which is the fact that the subject of porn itself is still taboo. People suffering from porn addiction would be afraid to come forward because such activity strongly insinuates deep lacking in real-world affection and sexuality, which I'm sure anyone experiencing would find utterly shameful and humiliating. It also doesn't help that the other side is a multi-billion dollar industry hell bent on not mere survival, but expansion and indeed mainstream distribution. (One could cite any number of articles covering the recent xxx domain controversy to hear the pornographers' side of the story.) So while the industry can afford to propagate their contention that there is no such thing as porn addiction, the addict suffers in reclusivity. In the meantime, just do a Pubmed search on the topic and you'll discover at least a few WELL WRITTEN, ACADEMIC articles. Reading those articles, this discussion--as well as the article itself--should veer from semantics and opinion, to enumerating the facts and evidence that are currently available.
Antaeus Feldspar, you sound rather bitter, and consequently a bit irrational. "Do some people have a severe problem with pornography? Sure they do. Some people also have a severe problem not going back and checking their car locks seven or eight times just to make sure they actually locked those doors. This proves nothing about addictive qualities to car doors." You're confusing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with addiction. And your point of view is essentially conspiratory and/or mearly antagonistic: "A disputed topic cannot be presented this way. The only "professional" sources seem to be American, and probably are heavily influenced by Western religions and ideologies." First of all, I think the article makes quite clear that the topic is disputed, and it actually reads biased against the notion of porn addiction. Second, let's keep in mind that for a long time, no one thought smoking was harmful, and it wasn't even until relatively recently that the cigarette manufacturers conceeded that their products are addicting. Also look at the asbestos industry, or I should say the asbestos litigation industry -- attorneys continue making millions off companies who knew their products were harmful but did little to nothing to protect employees and consumers. Even before that, it took quite some time to build consensus that asbestos exposure is indeed harmful. So it is not unreasonable to assume that the true prevalence of porn addiction, whether negligible or significant, will take quite some time to come to light as well, especially considering the reclusive nature of the activity itself, compared with the social nature of drinking and smoking. You're also guilty of what you accuse others of: "But then we must also acknowledge a fact that this case makes clear: "very real" does not mean "very prevalent". This is exactly the logical leap that most people who talk about the seriousness of "pornography addiction" blithely jump right over: "You cannot deny that somewhere, out of the 6.5 trillion people on this planet, some of them have what can be classed as a porn addiction." Where did you get that quote? It's not in this discussion, and it's not in the article itself, either. No one was making that leap. And I've never heard anyone making that leap in conversation about the topic. You also claim "the trouble is that they have very little hard scientific evidence to back it up, relying instead on dubious anecdotal evidence, including that provided by serial killers." As per the former, you're confusing published case studies for anecdotal evidence (unless you didn't know such case studies exist -- http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/158/10/1590 for example). As per the latter, you're equating sworn-in self-testamony with anectodal hearsay. So quit playing devil's advocate, especially since the article actually reads biased towards your opinion, and keep an open mind while research continues.
"such activity [viewing porn] strongly insinuates deep lacking in real-world affection and sexuality" Hmmm? Is that your own (unhelpfull and moralising) point of veiw? Isnt such moralising the whole problem here? It is possible that you are putting constraints on your own perception of reality and sexuality. - will
I got rid of all the baseless, unreferenced opinions and kept it simple. Others may add to it as necessary, but please, let's keep it informed. Let's keep it to what we know, not what we would like to think. It's a very heated topic, with a multi-billion dollar business on one side, and consumers--from the happily casual to the disturbingly obsessed--on the other. Keep it real, and keep it civil. If you can't find at least one solid reference for your statement, don't bother writing.
Almost as soon as I rid this article of the rambling, biased, unreferenced banter, a Wiki Nazi replaced my unbiased, referenced edit with the same old garbage. First of all, let's be honest--making statements and appending "citation needed" is a cop out for laziness, or simply opinion (i.e., POV in Wiki-geek-speak). Second of all, I'd like to know what is biased about "Regardless of opinion, it is important to acknowledge that scientific research on this subject is in its infancy, and it is thus premature at this point in time to draw definitive conclusions." And what's biased about citing several articles published in peer-reviewed scientific journals? This is in stark contrast to the opinionated, ambiguous, and unsubstantiated statementes in the current version. For example, "While some believe that it does exist, it can be argued that the majority of people who view and enjoy pornography, like the majority who enjoy any activity, will probably never encounter the harmful effects attributed to it when it is viewed habitually." Indeed, the article is now once again riddled with assertions qualified merely by "citation needed," not to mention cynicism, like putting the term pornography addiction in quotes.
When I used to only read articles on this site, I enjoyed it. But now that I've actually participated, it's obvious to me that Wikipedia is a forum, parading as an encyclopedia. Anyone and everyone can post a topic, assert their own opinions, and shrudge off responsibility with cop outs like "citation needed." Having an arbitrary, ambiguous rule set and an arbitrary award system doesn't help. Wiki is a sad excuse for rigorous academia and scientific research. (BTW, reading some authors' profile pages containing past arguments, it's painfully clear that some "Wikipedians" have an agenda.)
I see where this article is going, and I'll have no further part of it (much to the Wiki Nazis' delight, I imagine). Hey, while you're at it, why don't add icons and smileys to the forum! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.110.223 ( talk • contribs)
When an article is so biased, cynical, poorly referenced, and poorly written, it is better to wipe the slate clean and start anew with a well-written, fair, and well-referenced introduction. I had made it clear in my comment that my entry was to be used as an exemplary starting point. Good luck trying to doctor this pathetic entry, as I'm sure you remember going through similar pains when drafting papers in school. Like I said, I've lost faith in this forum and won't be touching the article again. So knock yourself out!
I believe that the section on skepticism needs additional research. The section as it stands now includes flawed logic, i.e. people believe that because some individuals can view pornography and lead regular lives, there is no such thing as pornography addition. However, the same arguement can be made against other forms of addition, with illegical conclusion: many people can have a single drink or an occasional cigarrette, but this does not mean that there is no such thing as alcoholism or cigarrette addiction. I understand that this flawed logic is held by many individuals, but it should be called what it is.
Further, there are serious criticisms of pornography addition that are being ignored. For example, there is the argument that the term "addiction" (i.e. chemistry based) is less appropriate than "compulsion" (i.e. behaviorally/pyschologically based). The article on general sexual addition includes many appropriate studies that can be cross-referenced.
I think "some individuals" is an understatement, I'd rather call it 95% of all male teenagers, and so far, I have yet to see any significant effects of this "addiction". This is a joke, whats next, TV addiction? Reading addiction? 212.30.218.14 ( talk) 02:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Well addiction takes its form in almost any activity and is typically defined as an unhealthy or unnatural obsession or consumption. Everyone eats every day - but we are not addicted until this habit becomes abusive. So given that pornography addiction is a reality for many people - actually I believe that pornography is pretty evil and does not serve any purpose for myself that is not socially detrimental. I think that pornography is a very poor example or attempt at art - there are artistic elements however this fails to be anything but a perversion of sexual activity. Humans are naturally inclined to pursue sexual encounters - this is instinct. Pornography purely pervades and misleads people into a pseudo sexual experience. Pornography can be used on a therapeutic basis to treat couples with sexual performance problems or individuals with other psychological or physical disorder. However it is not a tool that could be reasonably used to enhance or encounter true intimacy. This is all based on private sexual research. The internet is no place to learn about sexuality. When in all fairness it should be! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtsu4232625 ( talk • contribs) 13:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
After a little searching I found several studies linked here [2]. I think that whether these are really 'scientific' or 'valid' studies is a matter for discussion but that SOME research has been done should be mentioned. The connections between media depictions and violence and pornography and crime or psychological dysfunction is a popular and controversial area of research in social science. Antonrojo 02:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I could not find anything for this claim either
people with this disorder need to stop watching pornographic material for at least 3 months to fully recover from this disorder- Arron Bordinhio pHD in sex studies, MD in physiological sciences.
The p in PHD is not capitalized and the information is questionable as well as the doctors existence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fade2black 81 ( talk • contribs) 22:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge with Sexual addiction, Cybersex???
I made some edits today to try to neutralize it. I really do think it should be either merged with or made a sub-heading of sexual addiction, because a porn addict is a sex addict. Porn addiction is simply a method of acting out, as is compulsive masturbation or serial cheating, etc. I have been working in this field for over 8 years and while I can understand the religious fervor over it, it really should be treated as a medical issue, not a sociological or religous one. Regardless of whether or not you want to defend or end porn, the fact is that pornography addiction is defined by a compulsive use of it to the detriment of one's life (ie. time, money, and suffering relationships). As with any other substance/activity, some people can use it without any problems and some cannot. -- Madmumbler 19:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC) MadMumbler.
Agree that articles should be merged. I reverted your attempt to NPOV the article. I can see why you made this effort, but it had the unfortunate effect of littering the article with even more weasel words (see WP:WEASEL). What this article desperately needs in any NPOVing attempt is material deriving from reputable sources WP:RS -- Pathlessdesert 14:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think not, scientifically the addictions are simaler, but a lot of (unscientific) discussion about pornography addiction cannot be grouped with sexual addiction. 206.116.159.199 07:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I respect your opinion but in my own opinion I do not think it should be merged, there are different types of sex addicts and different types of programs for each. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myoceanlife1962 ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I think that the article needs to be thoroughly overhauled, and the references to fascist theocratic demagogues like James Dobson put in their appropriate context: that of a powerful, politically-connected opportunist cashing in on a real social problem to promote his own reactionary, fundamentalist agenda in a most insidious and intimate way.
These so-called "religious" approaches to the problem of porn addiction are fundamentally and irretrievably flawed not because of the broader political agenda behind them, however; they are flawed because they have no basis whatsoever in science--in empiricial observation or serious theoretical consideration. They are an outgrowth rather of a particular ideology that also considers homosexuality deviant and sinful, and that promotes and enforces a subservient role for women. Dobson and others fit the facts to this agenda. There's no way that they can be held accountable to any rigorous, reality-based analysis of the phenomenon of porn addiction, which certainly needs to be understood more fully, because they ultimately reject any standard of measurement that is based in reality rather than their own narrow, hateful brand of Christianity.
They should not be thought of or portrayed as an expert in this or any other matter. If they are included at all, it should be as a footnote showing the kind of dangerous and insidious opportunism that has attached itself to this issue.
Huh?
Disagree, just because his views are unscientific doesn't mean his words hold no influence. Just find some scientists that disagree, and mention that. 206.116.159.199 07:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Information is repeated in both places. I guess sexual addiction should be considered as the main article. Other types of sexual addiction (e.g. Pornography addiction, cybersex, etc) should refer back to Sexual addiction when the same information applies to both of them and focus only on what is specific in this particular behavior.
Saaraleigh 19:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
disagree. i think we are getting confused here, a sexual addiction article would be about addictions that are sexually related, not just addiction to sex. masturbation to porn is definitely sexual. i think there should be a small subsection in the sexual addiction section and a link to here. i dont know a lot about the rules here, but im sure theres an article called "cars" and then subsets of articles for different types of cars, different makes etc. sexual addiction should be sort of the core article to all sexual addictions in the same way the cars article is for different types of cars. Hoginford ( talk) 00:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It's late... and i'm sick and tired of pouring over endless amounts of biased and non NPOV topics deemed 'morally incorrect' and thus censored, warped, and made to hold up as a fake wikified 'article' by people who say "HEY!, go ahead and read this inaccesible non easily peer reviewable book that also costs a bundle and might not be available in your local library!, WP:BE BOLD
you know what I say?
-------- -------- -------- -------- __________________
yes.. .that's right!
I think that we need EXPERTS to help review, and fix up this article A LOT!. It's obviously almost completely biased against pornography, is FILLED iethl inks bloating the dangers of it, and the only thing that doesn't rant against this source of sexual arousal are a few statements from a long forgoteen, probably outdated, and equally inaccessible book as lost as that book on psychosexual infatilism by Sigmund Freud or whoever he was.........
I'll try and fix it up a bit, and i say!, don't give up i n the fight to make wikipedia a valuable source of info that presents nuetral points of view!, if it has one sides POV, then it must have an equal amount from the OTHER side, all of whose information must be backed up and not in a tome deep inside the old rat's hut in the heart of far away and distant riverwood forest.
Am i making myself clear? Nateland 09:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
About the leading pornography addiction 'expert' I hate to use a little POV but these sources CAN be claimed dubious... just READ the page on James Dobson. You'd think a few of these groups in favor of getting rid of pornography would be against HIM!. for what he says....
Dobson believes homosexuality can be cured in adults and prevented in children, and is an opponent of the gay rights movement. Focus on the Family sponsors a monthly conference called “Love Won Out,” where many of the speakers are self-professed ex-gays. Held around the U.S., the conference encourages its attendees to believe that "homosexuality is preventable and treatable."[2] According to critics, Focus on the Family asserts that there is a "homosexual agenda" and associates gays with pedophilia.[2]
In his book, Bringing Up Boys, Dobson writes that "Homosexuals deeply resent being told that they selected this same-sex inclination in pursuit of sexual excitement or some other motive.[5]
However, Dobson does not believe that homosexuality is genetic. In his June 2002 newsletter, he states: "There is further convincing evidence that homosexuality is not hereditary. For example, since identical twins share the same chromosomal pattern, or DNA, the genetic contributions are exactly the same within each of the pairs. Therefore, if one twin is 'born' homosexual, then the other should inevitably have that characteristic too. That is not the case. When one twin is homosexual, the probability is only 50 percent that the other will have the same condition. Something else must be operating."
James Dobson is a promoter of patriarchal marriage. He believes men have the divine obligation to lead their families, and women have the divine obligation to submit to their husband's authority. As such he supports the conservative Christian men's organization Promise Keepers, which also believes women should submit to the authority of their husbands. He believes that mothers with any children under the age of eighteen ought not to work outside the home, if finances and temperaments permit them to stay home.[4] Views on corporal punishment and authority
In his pamphlet, Dare to Discipline Dobson advocated the spanking of children of up to eight years old when they misbehave, but warns that "corporal punishment should not be a frequent occurrence" and that "discipline must not be harsh and destructive to the child's spirit." He does not advocate what he considers harsh spanking because he thinks "It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."[3]
Dobson recognizes the dangers of child abuse, and therefore considers disciplining children to be a necessary but unpleasant part of raising children that should only be carried out by qualified parents: "Anyone who has ever abused a child -- or has ever felt himself losing control during a spanking -- should not expose the child to that tragedy. Anyone who has a violent temper that at times becomes unmanageable should not use that approach. Anyone who secretly 'enjoys' the administration of corporal punishment should not be the one to implement it." [2]
In his book The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson suggests that by correctly portraying authority to a child, the child will understand how to interact with other authority figures: "By learning to yield to the loving authority... of his parents, a child learns to submit to other forms of authority which will confront him later in his life — his teachers, school principal, police, neighbors and employers."[4]
Dobson stresses that parents must uphold their authority and do so consistently, comparing the relationship between parents and disobedient children to a battle: "When you are defiantly challenged, win decisively."[3] In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson draws an analogy between the defiance of a family pet and that of a small child, and concludes that "just as surely as a dog will occasionally challenge the authority of his leaders, so will a little child — only more so.[3] (emphasis in original)
When asked "How long do you think a child should be allowed to cry after being punished? Is there a limit?" Dobson responded:
"Yes, I believe there should be a limit. As long as the tears represent a genuine release of emotion, they should be permitted to fall. But crying quickly changes from inner sobbing to an expression of protest... Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears. In younger children, crying can easily be stopped by getting them interested in something else."[3]
Now i really think that with a man who hoists POV opninions over his shoulder, makes claims which themselves are not proven to have worked and IF and WHEN they did failed 90% of the time.... well....
I think the section on Dobson should be removed.
P.S. MERELY complaining?, and all of those irrelevant links on recovering from pornography addiction.... ------_________------
I'm going to get rid of the irrelevant section on James Dobson's point of view. Are there any other Wikipedia articles about OCD-related issues that devote a section to a specific expert's perspective on the topic? This has nothing to do with whether or not porn addiction is real and everything to do with Dobson's opposition to all porn/erotica. Also, I'm changing "opposition" to "skeptics," since we're not talking about people opposed to addiction but people skeptical of the concept of addiction. Jamiem 18:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Dobson is an extremist POV pusher. He is not a reliable source, and so he cannot be used to cite this article. — coel acan — 15:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Emphasis mine. Extremist sources can only be used in articles about themselves, and then only very carefully. — coel acan — 22:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)"Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger." [3]
I disagree with including the material - why is his belief on the matter notable for this article? Why don't we also include his position on homosexuality in that article, for example?
Also if you do wish to put it in, please don't remove the merge tag - I have started the discussion already in talk, see my comment above. Mdwh 05:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC) If you are putting
I see that the Dobson material is still gone. Does this mean the matter is settled to everyone's satisfaction? Jamiem 15:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
(Copied from above to avoid further indenting): What is your proof of any of that? Provide it and you will justify your removal of the material. Jinxmchue 14:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the external links were not reliable sources. Here are the ones I removed: [8] That's a span of eight diffs, each one has an edit summary relating to the particular reason for that removal, for anyone who's wondering. — coel acan — 17:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
All three of these sites [11] are run by Pure Community Ministries. The purpose of them is to convert people to Christianity ("We believe this vision is best carried out through authentic fellowship with Jesus Christ and His people" [12]) and bring those who are already Christians around to the "right" way of thinking ("[We] don't allow users to debate the morality of porn" [13]).
Let's look at WP:EL's "What should be linked", in full:
Now let's look at WP:EL's "Links normally to be avoided". This one is longer, so I'll just copy the ones that apply here:
So I'm taking the links down. [14] There may be problems with the other external links, but these definitely have to go. — coel acan — 19:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I mostly just go around finding cites, but some of you who want a more neutral tone may wish to rewrite sections of the cite and link to the WebMD article I've added, which offers opinions on both sides of this.
I found the page by hitting 'random' until I found a page that needed citation fixing (that's what I do late at night). I probably won't be back anytime soon. That said, I'll note from personal experience, I am very pro-porn, I've been a phone sex girl, and I've seen an ex go through a paraphilia issue that could only be described as pornography addiction. While many of the people fighting against it are, to be honest, complete loons with serious agendas, don't assume that if the article is mostly 'well, porn addiction is bad' cites that that means that the POV isn't N. People who study it in scientific, peer reviewed places need to actually come up with real examples of it and the impact. If they look around a lot, and the result is 'Hey. It's not affecting people's lives at all.' then there's nothing for them to study. - Thespian 06:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
There are THOUSANDS of sites and therapists out there that profess to help people who are suffering from porn addiction. The purpose of this article is NOT to provide links to a pile of people with a vested interest in this subject (financial or moral), but instead to provide an encyclopedic view of the subject. Unless there is a noteworthy reason to include a particular anti-pornography site, such as third party news coverage of them that has a reason to be in the article, links will be removed from the article. There are lots of things that are relevant to the subject, but they have nothing to do with providing a usable encyclopedia article about the subject.
I do, in point, follow every single link that is added to this page, and I will not remove anything that has a valid reason to be here (in point, I am inclusionist, and I think I've rv'ed and undone more edits to this page than I've done in all my other edits on Wikipedia). But please do not keep adding links to every anti-porn group and site on the web, or it will make this article unusable. - Thespian 04:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Pretty easy to evaluate this one. Again, the third criterion from WP:EL's "What should be linked" is the one you're shooting for:
We've already danced these steps. — coel acan — 05:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Analysis of the Xxxchurch link as it relates to WP:EL's "Links normally to be avoided:"
1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. - N/A: provides a unique resource
2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources. - N/A: does not mislead
3. Links mainly intended to promote a website. - N/A: not a promotional link
4. Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources. - N/A: does not exist solely to sell anything
5. Links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. - N/A: not much advertising
6. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content. - N/A: no payment or registration needed
7. Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that only work with a specific browser. - N/A: anyone can view it
8. Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media. If you do link to such material make a note of what application is required. - N/A: no special apps needed
9. Links to search engine and aggregated results pages. - N/A: not a search engine
10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET. - N/A: not an SNS, forum or USENET
11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. - N/A: not a blog or personal web page
12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. - N/A: not an open wiki
13. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked to an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked. - N/A: directly related to the article
You'll note that at no point does that say anything about links that one WP editor or another has judged to be not neutral. As for the section about "What should be linked to," it does not mean those are the only things that can be linked to. Jinxmchue 17:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
under the heading "general information" I am changing it from "pornography addiction is defined as" to "could be defined as" due to the fact that was explained at the beginning of the article. That pornography addiction is not a recognised psychological disorder. I have little doubt personally that it exists, how common I don't know, but you can't say it is defined as anything unless an accepted medical journal defines it. Colin 8 06:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC) I figure it doesn't need the citation tag anymore since its all theoretical now. Colin 8 06:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the second paragraph because it was actually a paragraph depicting an argument against skeptics.
This revert cannot be justified through any wikipedia guideline. In fact these are good faith edits which improved the article, that any editor can cross check. Coming to the revert summary, "two peoples opinions dont represent psychological consensus" — if carefully read, the section begins with "Psychologists and Sex therapists like Dr. Kimberly Young, Dr. Victor Cline, both ...", which has an impartial tone. So there is no question of removing word for word, -- Bluptr ( talk) 14:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This is hardly a recognized diagnosis in any psychological establishment I know of. It might be popular some places in USA, but as far as I can tell from this article, it's not even in DSM IV! I would suspect it's popularity in USA has more to do with religion and moral norms than psychology, but whatever support it has, the fact remains that it is not an official diagnosis.
Yet, when I glance at and read this article, "Pornography addiction" comes off as a very established and understood phenomenon in psychology, and a problem on it's own. Personally, I think this is rediculous (if we should have "pornography addiction", then why not "candy addiction", "tv addiction", "listening to music addiction" and "sitting inside addiction"?), as the reader might already be able to discern. But even if you take this diagnosis seriously, you have to admit it is NOT an established diagnosis. Not in DSM IV, and definately not world wide. In fact, I have never seen it mentioned by anyone other than people from USA, and even in USA it's controversial.
The article should reflect this. This is not an arena to rewrite the textbooks of psychology, and articles should be NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.119.169 ( talk) 23:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure the anecdote involving Ted Bundy under the "stages in pornography addiction" is necessary or helpful. My impression is that it is meant to be an anecdote substantiating the existence of stages in pornography addiction - and I think that it achieves this to a degree - but it also acts to associate pornography addicts with serial killers of the worst kind. People shouldn't get the idea that escalating stages of pornography leads to serial killing. Another problem is that it substantiates the idea of stages in pornography in a way that is only anecdotal, which doesn't go very far in proving the phenomenon, especial granted the exceptional nature of the individual in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.184.27 ( talk) 03:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The author of the book DOES argue that stages in pornography use, much less addiction, does in fact lead to serial killers. Furthermore, he argues this is due to the left wing. I added a book review to provide a bit of balance. I share your concern as to whether or not any of it belongs where it is. sinneed ( talk) 23:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and deleted the passage. Ben Shapiro is a fear monger and blatant liar, and from the Wiki page on Ted Bundy, "Researchers generally agree that Bundy's sudden condemnation of pornography was one last manipulative attempt to forestall his execution by catering to Dobson's agenda as a longtime anti-pornography advocate, telling him precisely what he wanted to hear.[310]" 107.10.253.217 ( talk) 23:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
In recent ages the advent of shock sites often combine pornography and shock humor, making it possible for online pornography addicts to pass off their addiction as simple humor.
1st... I would like to see a source for this. 2nd... even if we find one, it seems nonsensical. Serious overusers of porn, which I rather confidently say would include anyone conceivably called an addict, would "need" for more than these.
I won't kill it again, but... I don't think it belongs, as is. sinneed ( talk) 23:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Formal criteria have been suggested by psychologists like Richard Irons, M. D. and Jennifer P. Schneider along lines strictly analogous to the [[ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders|DSM]] criteria for alcohol and other substance addictions. [1]
While this is an interesting paper, it does NOT propose a diagnosis of "Pornography Addiction". It is about sexual addiction, of which one facet is use of pornography. It may be useful on the sexual addiction article... I don't see its value here, even as an EL, and certainly not as a source for the statement it is attached to. sinneed ( talk) 00:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
References
Not happy with the general tone of this article... it all sounds very "wishy-washy" and argumentative...
Diagnosis as an addiction > Dispute
Stephen Andert states that pornography is a problem for many people, and argues that it can take control of a person's life like alcohol, gambling or drugs, and "drag them kicking and screaming or voluntarily into the gutter." He argues further that the "addictive and progressive (or regressive) nature of pornography is well documented."[3]
This reads like some random person's opinion. If this supposed "nature of pornography" is so well documented, don't say "some guy says it's well documented" - explain what the documentation is and what it says.
Proposed stages of pornography addiction
WTF? Ted Bundy...? I don't see the point of this paragraph at all. It doesn't even mention if he was (supposedly) addicted to porn. Relevance? It just reads like a poorly disguised suggestion that porn can lead to serial killing (of course if that were true, we'd all be dead) or at least violence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PollyWaffler ( talk • contribs) 13:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- sinneed ( talk) 15:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
An interested editor may wish to write out the 1990 proposed definition of addiction from an "British Journal of Addiction" article by Aviel Goodman, M.D.
Similarly the proposed stages of porn addiction from "Confronting Your Spouse's Pornography Problem" By Rory C. Reid, Dan Gray.
These works were included before without meeting wp:quote. Cut. - sinneed ( talk) 18:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
" "Evangelicals Are Addicted To Porn". ChristiaNet.com. Retrieved 2007-06-06.
I moved it to the EL section and dubious flagged it. It is clearly related to the subject... but I am not confident it has useful things to say here. I won't kill it, and won't move it again if readded as a footnote. But I object to the latter. :) - sinneed ( talk) 21:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I added the below link and it was deleted by sinneed shortly afterward as because he doubted the usefulness to the article. Croga.org has resources to help people who are concerned about downloading Child pornography. It's non-comercial and not politically or religously biased. I'm not affiliated with site or any anti-pornography movement and I can't think of any page where this link would be relevant. Also, this article seems biased toward the view that this is not a disorder and has nothing concerning its treatment. Link= CROGA.org provider of free, multi-lingual, anonymous self-help resources for people who are worried about downloading and using illegal images Stillwaterising ( talk) 01:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
"Also, this article seems biased toward the view that this is not a disorder and has nothing concerning its treatment."
I will argue that if we need this as an EL:
Is more appropriate... but I oppose, just to be clear.
I am very very dubious of the http://mentalhealthlibrary.info/ site being used as an RS on porn or porn addiction. This is an LDS partisan site. Perhaps as ELs. I do see the work that has been done in updating from the previous (dead) version, and note that this site, too, is moving. Unless someone argues that these should be wp:RS, I am going to turn them into External Links.- Sinneed 15:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed a dead link, and 2 others. All 3 have been restored. wp:EL - I see no need for the 2 live links, and the dead link certainly needs to go. I'll remove these later today unless there is some reason they belong.- Sinneed 20:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Dead link I killed:
- Sinneed 20:27, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
sounded one sided, didnt mention that most biographers of ted bundy think he only condemned porn in hopes that his execution would be delayed. i left the other info there, i just added more. heres a source from the ted bundy article thats goes along with it, i dont know how to do footnotes ^ Michaud & Aynesworth 1989, p. 320. the flow of it needs work i think. Hoginford ( talk) 00:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article is non existent, and it reads more like a damning christian religious self help flyer.
Rob
van
vee
10:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Your claim that "The DSM-5 has never explicitly considered online pornography consumption for inclusion as an addiction, and has not, to date, accepted it." is patently false. Read pages 797-798 of DSM-5. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 00:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Differential Diagnosis Excessive use of the Internet not involving playing of online games (e.g., excessive use of social media, such as Facebook; viewing pornography online) is not considered analogous to Internet gaming disorder, and future research on other excessive uses of the Internet would need to follow similar guidelines as suggested herein. Excessive gambling online may qualify for a separate diagnosis of gambling disorder.
— DSM-5, pp. 797-798
Thank you Tgeorgescu for making my point. The DSM5 has not formally debated Internet pornography addiction. Therefore it has not specifically rejected it. Please provide evidence of formal comment procedure and vote. Chrislyte ( talk) 23:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
Sorry, but formal consideration of a condition by the DSM is an extensive *formal* procedure, which allows for public commentary, etc. Casual notes of the type you cite are not the same as formal consideration (and rejection) of a specific disorder. In short, "internet porn addiction" was not "specifically" rejected. Chrislyte ( talk) 18:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
Wait, do we have a secondary source that says that it's never been considered? If not, the sentence needs to be struck as original research. We really don't need to bother evaluating the truth of the statement independent of the sources. The source that's there now is inadequate. 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 12:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
When the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) was being drafted, experts considered a proposed diagnostic addiction called hypersexual disorder, which also included a pornography subtype. But in the end, reviewers determined that there wasn't enough evidence to include hypersexual disorder or its subtypes in the 2013 edition.
— Kirsten Weir, Is pornography addictive?
I removed the following sentence:
Recent Peer-reviewed research by Cambridge University team headed by Addiction neuroscientist Valeri Voon found erectile dysfunction in compulsive porn users that was caused by porn use. Quotes from the research:
CSB subjects reported that as a result of excessive use of sexually explicit materials, they had lost jobs due to use at work (N = 2), damaged intimate relationships or negatively influenced other social activities (N = 16), experienced diminished libido or erectile function specifically in physical relationships with women (although not in relationship to the sexually explicit material) (N = 11),
CSB subjects compared to healthy volunteers had significantly more difficulty with sexual arousal and experienced more erectile difficulties in intimate sexual relationships but not to sexually explicit material.
Please note the wording in the first quote: "as a result of excessive use of sexually explicit materials". Not only do 60% of compulsive porn users have ED, they sate the ED is the result of porn use. Chrislyte ( talk) 00:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I removed this as it was based on Ley et al. Original citations provided by Ley et all do not support this claim.
Ley et al use this paragraph to justify 0.5% -
This above paragraph demonstrates Ley et al.'s lack of integrity. First, their estimates rest on citation 23, a study that is not about porn use. The stdudy specifically stated that, "We had not asked about pornography." Instead, it was about sexual experiences, fantasies and urges. In other words, this study has no place in a "porn addiction" review, and all of the artful statistical chicanery that follows is meaningless.
That said, it's worth noting that Ley, Prause and Finn cherry-picked from the irrelevant study's results. Nearly 13% of men and 7% of women reported out of control sexual experiences, but Ley et al. ignored those percentages and only mentioned that 0.8% of men and 0.6% of women reported that their "actual sexual behavior had interfered with their lives." Porn use is not sex. Problematic porn use therefore exists in some people who believe that no "actual sexual behavior [is] interfering with their lives."
Ley et al. next make the groundless leap that problematic porn use is always a subset of "actual sexual behavior that interferes with users' lives," and estimate that porn problems might affect 0.58 % of men and 0.43 % of women in the USA. Ley et al.'s own source (citation 24) says that experts estimated (in 2012) that 8–17% of Internet pornography users were addicted.
In contrast with the Ley et al.'s trivial estimates, the researchers in " Viewing Internet Pornography: For Whom is it Problematic, How, and Why?" found that,
approximately 20%–60% of the sample who view pornography find it to be problematic depending on the domain of interest. In this study, the amount of viewing did not predict the level of problems experienced.
Ley et al.'s purposefully misleading calculations also assume that everyone with porn addiction seeks treatment. In fact, it's likely that only a small percentage do. This is just one of many examples of misrepresentations by Ley et al.
Please do not cite the Ley review as a source. Instead cite post-internet era studies specifically on porn use or porn addiction. Chrislyte ( talk) 00:27, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I don't say that the marked sources would be low-quality, but per WP:MEDRS we should refrain from using primary sources for verifying medical claims. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 18:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused. The existing article cites an off-the-wall primary source by Nicole Prause ("
http://www.socioaffectiveneuroscipsychol.net/index.php/snp/article/view/20770/28995" -- a study which has no actual findings, and has been critiqued in the peer-reviewed literature:
http://www.socioaffectiveneuroscipsychol.net/index.php/snp/article/view/23833/32589), and yet I cannot cite a primary resource from Cambridge University conducted by the top neuroscience addiction researchers in the world, backed up by a thorough recent review that it aligns with? This is unbelievable. I think it's time to appeal this to to other critics, don't you?
I am happy to explain my edits, and just took a break first. The videos were removed because the first is based on the Prause study I just mentioned, which reached conclusions entirely unsupported by the actual "findings," and has been critiqued for this reason. The video about it gives the public a false impression of the state of the research on porn addiction. The second video shows anything but a consensus, so it is no support whatsoever for the page as it currently stands. Therefore it, too, adds confusion. It's at least more accurate than the first.
The only brain study [medical research] on porn addicts [compulsive porn users] needs to appear on this page about porn addiction. I'm sure any medical doctor will agree.
I will restore my edits as they are justified and quite reasonable.
Chrislyte ( talk) 18:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I know this is all a game for you, but as I'm sure someone will be reviewing this, I need to clarify. The article cites TWO Prause items, one a study (primary) and one a review. I am referring to the former.
In any case, you have not addressed my substantive concerns. What of the primary and secondary sources about internet porn addiction that you keep removing without justification? Chrislyte ( talk) 18:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
That is certainly appropriate for the primary Prause source, but not for the Cambridge study. I've asked for a third opinion and will do so for this section too. Chrislyte ( talk) 19:28, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
The asam.org reference has nothing to do with this discussion. Chrislyte ( talk) 20:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
I have clarified that the DSM has never considered "internet pornography addiction" using its required procedures, and left the comment about the fact that it was mentioned along with the observation that there was, as yet, insufficient evidence to include it.
This should resolve our differences. Chrislyte ( talk) 17:50, 1 August 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
This should resolve our differences...on this DSM point. Chrislyte ( talk) 17:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)Chrislyte
![]() |
If some aspect of WP or a WP article is deficient we should not use that as a reason for further substandard entries. That said, within an individual article we should have some parity. This Prause source [15] is not a review and should either be removed along with the source in question or both sources should be allowed with an inline attribution or tag indicating that they are not MEDRS compliant. — Keithbob • Talk • 16:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC) |
The journal the first Prause article is in is not even
MEDLINE indexed and so raises questions about its quality. Are other journals in this area MEDLINE indexed? What is the impact factor? Are the findings of this source in line with higher quality sources?
Zad
68
03:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
My edits to this article have been rejected and so I return to the initial common sense realities of life outside of Wikipedia.
The title of this article is a misnomer - It is only an opinion, POV, that adult erotica is "Pornography", that it is "obscene and disgusting". Use the words "depravity" and "corruption" as well. Except that it is not "pornographic", "depraved" and "corrupt" when people engage in penetrative and oral sex in real life. That is considered normal. Here lies the ironic fact that all negative references to so-called "pornography" represent the worst sort of hypocrisy.
Let's say that someone accesses Erotica 18 hours per day, and at the same time listens to their favourite music at the same time. Will that person be accused of engaging in "Music Addiction" --- no, that person will only de indicted of "pornography addiction". Incidentally, listening to music all day long every day is considered normal.
Adult Erotica is on the move all the time, new performers, new directors and new films are being introduced all the time. Adult Erotica is a living thing, on the move all the time where no two days are the same. Just like television programmes are on the move all the time, with new soap operas, new dramas, new game shows, new everything for people to watch. Nobody calls watching television an addiction because people want to know what's new in television. The very same thing applies the cinema and music. People do EXACTLY THE SAME THING with Adult Erotica. It's just another medium, and just as big a source of tax for the governments.
The fabric of this article is Blimpish Prudery because it subscribes to the opinion that the subject matter is "pornographic", "obscene" and "disgusting" because the visual art of showing sex is wrong and the people who access it are in the wrong over some moral reasons.
In the meantime, life goes on in contradiction to what this article is all about. This Wikipedia article remains unable to justify its central argument. Nobody in the entire history of the Human Race has ever been "damaged" by accessing Adult Erotica, whether for 4 hours per day or for 14 hours per day. Adult Erotica has always been part of Human History. From Stone Age Paintings to Greek and Roman art to sepia photography to digital modern times. Likewise, the objection to this material has always been in evidence, this Wikipedia article acting as a testimony to that fact. Dickie birdie ( talk) 10:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
If you think the article is biased, point us to reliable sources that can make it more balanced. Do not blank the page, nor accuse other editors of prudery.
And in this case the article is less concerned with pornographic works and their contents, and more concerned with the effects on the addicts' lives: "difficulty in general life functioning". Dimadick ( talk) 23:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
There is no evidence in existence to justify this claim. Nothing. It's something that belongs primarily to English-language culture. Visit other countries. Broaden your horizons. Dickie birdie ( talk) 14:33, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
It damaged me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.232.49 ( talk) 00:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: According to [16], the blog seems legit (belonging to mainstream scientists). Yup, it redirects there. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
A Critique on “The Great Porn Experiment”
Sex Supplement: UBC researcher doubts "Great Porn Experiment" hypothesis
Op-ed by Neuroscientists stating “Fight the New Drug” Misrepresents Science
What do you think of the TEDx talk "The Great porn Experiment"?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.159.33.167 ( talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
|
@ Cheeseypopcorn7088: Either there is porn addiction or people don't suffer from watching porn is a false dilemma. There are other options, such as OCD/impulse control disorder. So it is not that porn addiction is competing against non-existence of symptoms, but it is competing against other models which are preferred by experts, or better account for the available evidence. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 10:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
The opinion of the associate professor E.T.M. Laan renders the majority view, namely that most sexologists do not believe in pornography addiction. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:52, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
These being said, the Zeitgeist seems unfavorable to the concept of addiction. This is, medical and psychological research prefers the model of compulsion to the model of addiction, so there is extremely small chance that pornography addiction would get accepted, i.e. as being an addiction instead of being a compulsion. This also applies to sex addiction and masturbation addiction. It's the way things are, see WP:RGW. I know that addiction is very popular in non-scientific press, but no more than that: in the scientific community it seems to have lost the dispute. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Note that the word addiction is not applied as a diagnostic term in this classification, although it is in common usage in many countries to describe severe problems related to compulsive and habitual use of substances.
— DSM-5, p. 485
Pornography addiction is a very popular concept for some parties: the idea of casting every positive-reinforcing activity as addiction appeals to a very American puritan instinct, as well as offering opportunities to researchers to expand their work, with both types of appeal being linked to a genuine desire to do good.
I don't have any medical expertise, so I cannot weigh in on this one way or another. I'm certainly not going to get involved in turf wars between neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists, and whether one arm of the profession can pull rank on another.
Fortunately, we have the NPOV policy to deal with these sorts of cases, and we have a policy of weighing official consensus of experts based on systematic reviews, meta-analyses, etc, as stronger evidence than recent research, regardless of how valid or otherwise it may be. I think we can regard the position of the ICD-10 and DSM-V, which represents the cautious and considered position of the medical profession in its entirety, as definitive for the time being, and not attempt to litigate the issue here. If and when medical consensus changes, of course, so should this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 13:55, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Treatment:
Research is ongoing on the role of the NMDA receptor system and it's role in substance abuse, neuroplasticity changes, sensitization, cue responses, neurodegenerative diseases and excititory toxicity. One promising option for preventing these same effects due to heavy porn addiction which appears to be the main cause of the rapid change in males who have sexual dysfunction under the age of 40.
References
@ Anastasia.Shylnov: MDPI is not a WP:MEDRS-compliant publisher (in the past was on Beall's List). In other words, it is indeed a review, but not indexed for MEDLINE. Also if I have to guess the rest of the text is a copyright violation. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Anastasia.Shylnov, I reverted this because we need to stick to WP:MEDRS-compliant sources for biomedical material. For example, we should typically avoid primary sources. See WP:Primary sources and WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
Also, peer review is not the same thing as literature review. Please read and study WP:MEDRS. It is clear about the type of sourcing you should be using, and this begins with its introduction: "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies. Primary sources should generally not be used for medical content – as such sources often include unreliable or preliminary information, for example early in vitro results which don't hold in later clinical trials." You should be looking for secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, tertiary sources. You can look on Google Books if that will help. It often helps me. If you haven't looked on PubMed, look on there as well. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 11:22, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
See
http://www.psychcrime.org/news/index.php?vd=2902&t=Former+Yale-NYU+Psychiatric+Researcher+Alexander+Neumeister+Convicted%2C+Sentenced Basically, his advocacy for a diagnosis of porn addiction was based upon faked data. So, if plagiarism is regarded as a
mortal sin in the academia, then faking data should be regarded as the sin against the Holy Spirit. There were some Wikipedians who intentionally faked
WP:Verifiable information or faked
WP:RS, they were indeffed and when they asked to be unblocked, admins considered them irredeemable. And to top it off, fabricating sources? I've never seen anyone come back from that.
said
Yamla. All papers listed at
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=neumeister+site%3Ayourbrainonporn.com&oq=neumeister+site%3Ayourbrainonporn.com should be
plonked. Once a fraudster, always a fraudster: none of his papers can be trusted. There was a similar case in the Netherlands, see
Diederik Stapel. Confirmation from
https://retractionwatch.com/2020/09/16/springer-nature-journal-takes-eight-months-to-retract-paper-after-us-government-misconduct-finding/
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
05:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
About psychologist Gary Wilson
: Wilson is not a psychologist (does he have any diploma I don't know of?), he is not a professor (never was), he is not a scientist (never was). And, above all, he does not have evidence for his claims, he just claims such claims because he has religious faith. As I have previously stated, But Wilson does not participate in the scientific debate, since he does not belong to the scientific community. These are facts. The consensus seems to be that porn OCD is extremely infrequent. What are more frequent are delusions like "porn made me bald/psychotic" or "if I stop fapping I get superpowers". Wilson neither has a PhD in a germane academic field, nor does he pass
publish or perish. So Wilson does not write
WP:RS. He was a teacher, not a professor.
Tgeorgescu (
talk)
11:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Searching at PubMed for meta-analyses and reviews for the keyword pornography
, and excluding the papers not indexed for MEDLINE (especially
MDPI), there is not much going on, the news are slow. I also found Kang, Xiaoxi; Handayani, Dini Oktarina Dwi; Chong, Pei Pei; Acharya, U. Rajendra (2020). "Profiling of pornography addiction among children using EEG signals: A systematic literature review". Computers in biology and medicine. 125. Elsevier BV: 103970.
doi:
10.1016/j.compbiomed.2020.103970.
ISSN
0010-4825.
PMID
32892114., but it so badly begs the question that porn addiction exists and that it has nefarious effects upon children that it cannot be considered reliable. It's fearmongering about porn and fearmongering about internet. It so heavily relies upon
petitio principii that it's a joke.
WP:REDFLAG. It's like claiming they can detect
Bigfoot witnesses based on EEG. First produce evidence that Bigfoot exists, and we'll talk afterwards about witnesses. In doubt, we already have
WP:RS that the jury is still out on the existence of the porn addiction, and some scientists speculate we will know the answer by Christmas 2025. Anyway, DSM-IV and DSM-5 have deprecated the term addiction, and ICD-11 employs the model of a sexual behavior compulsion, not the model of an addiction. So, yeah, porn compulsion or porn control impulse disorder seem much more likely to be recognized in the future as diagnoses than porn addiction. With the specification that porn OCD is considered to be extremely rare (epidemiologically infrequent) and that the claims that porn induces erectile dysfunction never got supported by enough evidence.
And what is more frequent are people self-diagnosing with porn addiction or being diagnosed with porn addiction by self-appointed experts which also happen to offer quite expensive therapy for porn addiction, which is not covered by the medical insurance since it's not an officially recognized diagnosis, and there are no recognized criteria for diagnosing people with such disorder. Accompanied by VIPs who claimed they did not cheat on their wives, but they were sex addicted, so they couldn't have behave properly.
The WP:BURDEN is not upon me to show that a term deprecated by the DSM and rejected by the ICD is unlikely to become a valid diagnosis in the near future. The jury is still out whether the whole phenomenon, which might be called porn addiction, porn compulsion, or porn impulse control disorder, is real. Therefore, seen by the WP:RULES of Wikipedia, claiming that Bigfoot exists is similar to claiming that porn addiction exists. While it is not settled that the whole phenomenon does not exist, it is highly unlikely that it will be called an addiction. In respect to the existence of the phenomenon, I have no dog in that fight, I don't have the science to decide such matter, and my opinion thereupon is irrelevant. What I can tell you for sure it is that it is extremely unlikely to have a diagnosis of porn adiction (with the accent upon addiction). Tgeorgescu ( talk) 03:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
“Historically the term ‘sex addiction’ has been used by white males to absolve themselves from personal and legal responsibility for their behaviors,” one expert said. “It is often used as an excuse to pathologize misogyny.”
— NBC News, 'Sex addiction' isn't an actual disorder, but white men often get excused by using it, experts say
Quoted by Tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Hajela's article was not even indexed for PubMed, let alone MEDLINE, and Hilton's article was not indexed for MEDLINE. See WP:REDFLAG and WP:MEDRS. This shows that criticism of DSM's decision wasn't published in mainstream medical journals. Both of those journals are now defunct.
What about other sources mentioned in the article? For a start, most of those don't pretend to be research or novel contributions to medical science. The germane guideline is WP:PARITY. The two sides of the debate aren't equal, see WP:GEVAL. Why is that? Because the claim of porn addiction it is not a claim usually championed by sexologists, but by vocal outsiders. If anything, sexologists push for calmness in this debate and for collecting adequate evidence in order to eventually assert it in the future. I have cited a source which says it is not a claim of sexologists, but of the religious right. So, it is rather a political claim than a claim supported by mainstream science.
This means that Wikipedia does not give equal merit to the medical orthodoxy and to fringe medical science. Nor gives them equal coverage.
And about the effects of porn watching upon children/teens, there isn't much evidence, there is instead much speculation about brain plasticity. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
war against pornographyof the LDS Church. This is apparent in the fact he was spewing paranoid conspiracy theories against the legacy of Alfred Kinsey.
Experts in addictionsounds as time is passing increasingly like
experts in phlogiston. The paradigm of addiction is increasingly being deprecated. Sounds more like a paradigm of the 1960's. tgeorgescu ( talk) 15:33, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
the concept of addiction has been deprecated since DSM-IV, they cannot turn the clock back;
nonsubstance addiction(s)
Behavioral disorder (also called behavioral addiction) not related to any substance of abuse that shares some features with substance-induced addiction.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.adolescence.2017.04.006 admits there are no experimental data
You might ask why Hilton wrote that article.
Destigmatizing human sexual expression and experiences as well as creating and maintaining safe space for those who have been traditionally marginalized are essential practices for AASECT members who are predominately mental health practitioners and educators. This overarching goal compels AASECT to disavow any therapeutic and educational effort that, even if unwittingly, violates or impinges on AASECT’s vision of human rights and social justice.
I never said that Wikipedia should strive to represent the views of editors. Rather what I said is that since Wikipedia strives to represent views in proportion to the coverage they receive in reliable secondary sources, editors who let their views bleedthrough into their editing are a bigger problem when their views are outside of the mainstream then when their views are within the mainstream. For example if an editor is a Nazi who believes whites are the superior race, when they try to force this view into our articles, this is a significant problem. By comparison, if an editor believes that there is no such thing as a superior race, it's far less of a problem when their editing to articles is biased by this particular view. It's not because there are few Nazis on Wikipedia, and most editors are not Nazis. It's because sources overwhelming reject Nazi idealogy. The fact that our editors also overwhelming do so is great, but was never part of my point. The rest of your commment supports this, so I'm not even sure why you're challenging me. Nil Einne ( talk) 05:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
it is indeed probable that more harm and misery have been caused by men determined to use coercion to stamp out a moral evil than by men intent on doing evil.
— Hayek
porn addictionis hate speech. That it was since its inception and it cannot change. It is simply a label meant to promote discrimination. It's like selling
soap made of Jewish fat—regardless of whether it's a myth, such soap is sold in order to promote white supremacy.
the Devil forced me to do it, but they fall for
porn forced me to do it. And then lots of money flow for scientifically unsound therapies which purport to cure people of porn. Such clinics are quackery.
porn addictionis a label that has been abused and oversold, it is irreparably broken. Words matter, language matters. ICD-11 chose for a diagnosis of CSBD, which is not the same as
porn addictionor
sex addiction. Same as a KKK robe is associated with racist lynchings and no longer with traditional garments of Spanish penitents.
Porn addictionis an idea which has been wholly compromised; it is irredeemable. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Seen https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aasam.org+pornography&client=firefox-b-d , ASAM is particularly quiet about porn addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 10:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It seems that DSM-5-TR, the Bible of psychiatry since March 2022, will cream YBOP/TGPE/NoFap/FTND. Since I don't want to repeat what I wrote, see Talk:NoFap#DSM-5-TR. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:12, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
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The article says "The status of pornography addiction as an addictive disorder, rather than simply a compulsivity, has been hotly contested." in contrast to this which indicates it isn't contested at all:
"Websites and advocacy groups that promote and encourage identification as porn addicts are doing harm to their followers, and can become like the hucksters promoting naturopathic treatment despite federal medical groups identifying such treatments as ineffective and potentially harmful. Ultimately, all should be held accountable for their inaccurate, outdated, and exploitative actions. article continues after advertisement
It is noteworthy that in this research, and in the numerous commentaries in response, no one is defending the porn-addiction model. None of the researchers looking at data on porn-related problems have chosen to argue that an addiction model or treatment strategy is appropriate. To be sure, some researchers still defend a compulsive model, or suggest that pornography itself is too broad a concept to be neatly captured by a single theory. The editors of the Archives of Sexual Behavior invited commentaries on this article only from researchers, who must argue based on science, as opposed to anecdote. None of them argue that porn is addictive, that it changes the brain or one's sexuality, or that the use of porn leads to tolerance, withdrawal, or other addiction-related syndromes. Put simply, while the nuance of porn-related problems is still being sussed out, the idea that porn can be called addictive is done, at least in the halls of sexual science." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too
This article can cause harm
"This means that the large-scale promotion of the concept of “porn addiction,” in the media, on the Internet, by self-proclaimed experts and by an industry that preys off of an unrecognized disorder, appear to actually be hurting people. By telling people that their use of porn constitutes a disease, they are promulgating suffering and anxiety, instilling into people that their use of pornography means there is something wrong with them, and that this use has potentially dire consequences." - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201509/your-belief-in-porn-addiction-makes-things-worse<
See also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/porn-addiction
Gripdamage ( talk) 23:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
It is properly called propaganda, since it is pseudoscientific and antiscientific. Besides, it's sourced. tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
CSBD from ICD-11 has explicitly ruled out addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
My take has been expressed at [18]. What I have learned since then? That a diagnosis of porn addiction is highly unlikely. Note that I am not opposed to a diagnosis of porn OCD, or CSBD. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Okay, what's wrong with it? People who conflate depression, OCD, borderline, or religious guilt with porn addiction should not get treated for porn consumption, but for depression, OCD, borderline, or religious guilt. A psychiatrist is not like a waiter who brings one the demanded dish, but they are actively in charge of treatment.
People who take medicines and lose capability of erection should ask their MD for changing their medicines. They should not quit their medication, just change it. Refraining from PMO does not heal real diseases, so it's not a substitute for medication.
People who have marriage problems because of porn use should consume the porn together with their partner. And porn is rarely the single reason which breaks a marriage. Perhaps it is the most click-baiting title for an article, but never the final reason for divorce.
For these reasons organized skepticism sees porn addiction as lacking epistemic warrant. You'd think that 22 years since broadband internet, there would have been plenty of evidence for sex addiction or porn addiction. But DSM-5-TR explicitly says it's not the case.
Besides, the label of porn addiction has been tainted with praying the gay away, promoting suicide, telling the court "porn made me do it" in order to dodge personal responsibility, white supremacy, and so on. Totalitarian countries/movements have a taboo about masturbation and pornography.
I don't think that YBOP was an ill-willed enterprise, but it is scientifically misguided. Their narrative about "porn shills" who write scientific research as denialism is just a conspiracy theory. The only MDs paid by Big Porn are those detecting STDs in porn actors, and they are not the ones who write porn research. YBOP's failure was indiscriminately collecting research which supports their POV, regardless of how dodgy the papers are.
What about ICD-11 with CSBD? While the underlying literature are respectable studies about addiction, there is no sex research therein, which is a big WP:REDFLAG.
YBOP and NoFap broke the golden rule of patient organizations: if you have to disagree, disagree respectfully, but never seek to vilify the scientific and medical authorities. Their strategy is rhetorically effective in respect to their fan base, but cuts no ice in mainstream science. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Theweasalwordsfinder: Removal of "controversial" does not abide by WP:NPOV. Further, 94 WP:RS are WP:CITED inside our article. Why you find that number insufficient?
Why is it controversial? According to the American Psychiatric Association there is no such thing as porn addiction. And even ICD-11 (which AFAIK is still not applicable in US) has been lambasted for the fact that there is no sex research in CSBD. Without such research it is a diagnosis established by fiat, i.e. not evidence-based. tgeorgescu ( talk) 09:15, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
I reviewed that section: "The role pornography watching plays in the development of children and youth is basically unknown, due to a lack of empirical studies. There are considerable ethical problems with performing such research. Since those problems are a huge obstacle, it is likely that such research will not be allowed, thus possibly it could never be known. Rory Reid ( UCLA) declared "Universities don't want their name on the front page of a newspaper for an unethical study exposing minors to porn.".
The first Source [1], only considers effects on adolescents brain and not development of children and youth, nor are children mentioned in that context in the source. There is research about adolescent and effects of porn, just not in the field of brain effects (for review see [2] [3]), which goes even back to the year 1973 [4].
The second source [5] doesnt mention anything stated above, experimental research about pornography and adolescent are ethicaly not possible [6] (page 3.) which dosent mean that no research is possible, surveys are possible,
And the third source [7] is just an unrelyable medical source.
I would therefore say that, that section should be deleted. The Other Karma ( talk) 18:52, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
only considers effects on adolescents brain and not development of children and youth, nor are children mentioned in that context in the sourceis a contradiction, I cannot make heads or tails out of it. Anyway, its conclusion is "The literature suggests that the adolescent brain may indeed be more sensitive to sexually explicit material, but due to a lack of empirical studies this question cannot be answered definitively."
About
assumed absence of studies on the effects of pornography on children meant it had no effect—no, I was not assuming that. I simply stated that no evidence=no knowledge. So, it has no known effects. And, yes, the authors of the review have an opinion, but there is no particular reason to trust their opinion, since they admit it is not based upon empirical evidence. And they don't even say if that's good or bad. Simply because young adults get different norms and values, it cannot be automatically equated with "harmful". Just because pornography disproportionately favors one side of the culture wars doesn't mean it's harmful. This boils down to: the claim that watching pornography is bad for teenagers is a political rather than scientific claim. Zillmann'sdecreased respect for long-term monogamous relationships, and an attenuated desire for procreationare politically undesirable effects, not medically undesirable effects. About the edit, see https://revisesociology.com/2016/05/29/sociology-value-freedom/ So, these are not medically or sociologically undesirable effects, but politically undesirable, as seen by the GOP. There are lots of progressives who disagree that these effects are morally or politically undesirable. So, yeah, Zillmann conflated the judgment of empirical science with his own political activism. He was entirely free to support conservative politics, but that should never be conflated with science. It's none of the business of sociology to tell you if such effects are desirable or undesirable. Those who propagate such crude moralism are not writing sociology. Nor psychiatry. Any undergraduate student from the sociology and psychology faculties which I have attended could tell you for a fact that sociologists and psychologists are not getting paid to write such moralistic craps.Even if you wholeheartedly support family values, you will agree that in a free country other grownups are entitled to disagree with your choice.
This jeremiad is entirely fitting for the language of 19th century sociology:
Prolonged consumption of common pornography spawns doubts about the value of marriage as an essential societal institution and about its future viability.Such language is obsolete by the standards of the 1960's.And the various studies which did empirically investigate the matter (e.g. Miranda Horvath and Marleen Katayama-Klaassen) put their readers on a steady diet of low correlation and causality cannot be shown. tgeorgescu ( talk) 14:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
WP:REDFLAG because
To begin, the vast majority of research utilized nonexperimental, cross-sectional designs. This type of methodology tells us nothing about the causal impact of SEM and SVM exposure on DV and SV attitudes and behaviors.Rodenhizer and Edwards (2017). So, welcome to the world of medical porn research, wherein causality can seldom be shown.Doran and Price (2014) is not indexed at all for PubMed.
About
Research shows a clear association between pornography and sexual and dating violence. Across 43 studies, teens and young adults who consume more sexually explicit and sexually violent media were six times more likely to be sexually aggressive toward otherswe know the mantra correlation does not imply causation, but the quote offered is too bold and cocky, since it suggests much too much a causal linkbetween pornography and sexual and dating violence. I mean: for the medical professional, it doesn't, but for the "laity", it does. Even journalists who lack scientific literacy could be fooled by such incendiary statements. It takes high scientific literacy to see through such statements. So, such statements are misleading because we write for a general audience. We do not write for experts.Basically, there are no empirical data about the impact of porn upon youth. Most studies thereupon are navel-gazing, instead of responsible statistical processing of empirical data.
E.g. this is a PhD research thereupon from the Netherlands: https://www.uva.nl/binaries/content/assets/uva/nl/onderzoek/promoveren/samenvattingen/2020/01/samenvatting-klaassen-marleen.pdf
Its conclusion:
low statistical correlationand causality cannot be shown.See its precedent upon https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/14/children-who-access-internet-porn-more-likely-to-have-sex-younger_n_7365794.html Miranda Horvath stated about this: "But it is not possible to establish causation from correlational studies, and to say whether pornography is changing or reinforcing attitudes." Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22987051
Positive knowledge (as opposed to speculation or moralism) is extremely hard to come by, and to the extent that it exists, it does not support the bold claims of the moralists.
Or, as the biologist Steve Jones, Emeritus Professor of Genetics at University College London said about something else "a classic case of Arts Faculty science. Never mind the hypothesis, give me the data, and there aren’t any".
The problem with researching porn effects upon teens is, as Rory Reid ( UCLA) declared "Universities don't want their name on the front page of a newspaper for an unethical study exposing minors to porn." Suppose an evil dictator would solve such problem, well, this would be only solving the minor problem. The major problem is finding a control group, i.e. teens who have never watched porn. Even if those teens take an oath on the Bible that they have never watched porn, that still isn't conclusive evidence that they have never watched porn. Teens lie a lot, especially if they have to tell about their own porn consumption while their parents are religiously conservative.
Peter and Valkenburg (2016) 20 years review: causality cannot be shown. Brown and Wisco (2019) review: idem ditto. tgeorgescu ( talk) 23:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
To begin, the vast majority of research utilized nonexperimental, cross-sectional designs. This type of methodology tells us nothing about the causal impact of SEM and SVM exposure on DV and SV attitudes and behaviors.Rodenhizer and Edwards (2017). So, welcome to the world of medical porn research, wherein causality can seldom be shown.
too emotional: I write this with passion for mainstream science, but I don't have personally a dog in the fight. I keep it at an abstract level (scientific knowledge). I know that Wikipedia isn't for my personal ideas. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Porn research is often boring or tedious:
In short: there are no spectacular results. tgeorgescu ( talk) 13:44, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Jm33746: The medical orthodoxy largely sees neurofeedback as quackery. If she is an expert in neurofeedback, she is an expert in woo.
Hint: "specialized in neurofeedback" means WP:FRINGE, and the diagnosis of porn addiction is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association. Nor is it recognized by the World Health Organization. So, she pretends to treat people for an illness having behind it as much evidence as morgellons and electromagnetic hypersensitivity.
Claims such as “(porn) damages your brain” and “it is like an occasional heroin habitat, it does almost the same thing to the brain” “it highjacks the reward center in the brain “ are rank pseudoscience, so they violate the website policy WP:PSCI.
When a certain PhD holder advises on YouTube other therapists to put a diagnosis of porn addiction, "since it is recognized by ICD-11" and there is a backdoor in DSM-5-TR, she likely advises them to commit insurance fraud: ICD-11 does not apply to US (yet), and ICD-11 does not recognize a diagnosis of "porn addiction". It is unlikely that ICD-11 will be adopted by US sooner than 2025. So, ICD-11 does not recognize it, and even if it did, that would still be void for a least a couple of years. tgeorgescu ( talk) 21:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
research, anyway her claims you added to the article are against website policy.
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Hajela's article was not even indexed for PubMed, let alone MEDLINE, and Hilton's article was not indexed for MEDLINE. See WP:REDFLAG and WP:MEDRS. This shows that criticism of DSM's decision wasn't published in mainstream medical journals. Both of those journals are now defunct.
What about other sources mentioned in the article? For a start, most of those don't pretend to be research or novel contributions to medical science. The germane guideline is WP:PARITY. The two sides of the debate aren't equal, see WP:GEVAL. Why is that? Because the claim of porn addiction it is not a claim usually championed by sexologists, but by vocal outsiders. If anything, sexologists push for calmness in this debate and for collecting adequate evidence in order to eventually assert it in the future. I have cited a source which says it is not a claim of sexologists, but of the religious right. So, it is rather a political claim than a claim supported by mainstream science.
This means that Wikipedia does not give equal merit to the medical orthodoxy and to fringe medical science. Nor gives them equal coverage.
And about the effects of porn watching upon children/teens, there isn't much evidence, there is instead much speculation about brain plasticity. tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
And, yup, while being an anti-pornography crusader is not a reason to dismiss a scientific paper out of hand, the lack of MEDLINE indexation, the fact that the journal is now defunct and it did not have a long history (to an expert librarian, that means something), and the WP:GEVAL policy, Hilton's paper should not be used to give the lie to DSM-5. If anything, DSM-5-TR gave the lie to Hilton's paper.
My analysis is the following: since DSM-5 agreed with Prause, not with Hilton, that was Prause's beginner's luck. After nine years, DSM-5-TR was published, this time it is no longer beginner's luck, but the result of mature scientific debate, and APA even chose to discard the diagnosis of CSBD which already existed in ICD-11. Now the concept of porn addiction is on its death bed, and if DSM-6 will also reject it, porn addiction will be dead in the water. Then porn addiction will become the laughing stock of worldwide psychiatry (and even at this moment it isn't considerably better).
Hilton lost the scientific dispute, and Wikipedia never had much sympathy for its losing factions. tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
The gist is that Hilton is a WP:FRINGE peddler, and, according to WP:GEVAL, Wikipedia cannot say otherwise. tgeorgescu ( talk) 06:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
https://neurosciencenews.com/neuroscience-pornography-brain-15354/amp/ Jm33746 ( talk) 22:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Since both ICD-11 and DSM-5-TR have rejected the diagnosis, should porn addiction be characterized as an obsolete scientific theory? tgeorgescu ( talk) 17:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
the mental health community at large is divided, which contradicts "fringe and largely abandoned/discredited". Its body says:
Compulsive or extreme use of pornography is well documented in various studies, and, despite the controversies in the feld on whether or not pornography addiction is a “real” disorder, it is abundantly clear that some individuals do experience dysregulation in their use of pornography. The paper is a secondary source when it comes to the academically dominant model (dysregulated porn use caused by
Individual Differences (e.g., impulsivity, sensation-seeking, low self-control, emotional dysregulation, coping deficits, but a primary source for its second, proposed pathway (
pornography problems due to moral incongruence). I'll note that the authors present this new pathway as a refinement of their previous "perceived addiction" concept (as opposed to "real" addiction), so they're a primary source on the "perceived addiction" concept too. Their meta-analysis does conclude that
pornography use itselfdoesn't induce dependence (unlike drugs), which debunks some of the claims made by the YourBrainOnPorn people.
@ Rhosnes: CSBD is not an addiction at all. It decidedly, explicitly rejects the model of addiction. tgeorgescu ( talk) 16:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
According to this websiteWikipedia doesn't consider such websites to be reliable sources, for good reason. MrOllie ( talk) 20:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
References
Porn increase sexual assault Jm33746 ( talk) 22:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
References
In other words, five studies found that the sexual violence perpetrators had seen less pornography than other criminals.
This is, by some US politicians, never by the American Psychiatric Association. US psychiatrists did not jump the bandwagon. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:56, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
If that seems contradictory, the reality is that what the 5th Circuit is saying, in a truly partisan way, is that when Republicans compel speech, that’s fine. It’s not only fine, but the court doesn’t even need to explain why it passes constitutional muster. When Democrats highlight content that could lead to harm for websites to look at and decide for themselves if they want to host it, that is the worst censorship scandal in the history of America, and the government should be barred from speaking to the companies at all.
[22] is WP:COI. tgeorgescu ( talk) 07:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)