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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2022 and 11 March 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Axolotl3 ( article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): GuyJWG, Sjwkcc. Peer reviewers: Bmdv23, Murph0008, Emily Quist.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Hajor, I relocated the secondary meanings line to below the opening paragraph because it seems much better that way. I know that placing the "disamb" at the
top is common practice, however it is only one solution and does not rule
out other solutions, like mine. Here is another excuse: the bands were named after the book (rather than coincidentally, or all three from some other source), so my solution gives that information in a simple and natural way. More importantly, placing the disamb at the top violates the important rule that the article should begin with a definition of the title. Finally placing the secondary meanings at the top gives them undeserved prominence.
All the best,
Jorge Stolfi 05:40, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I took out a reference to the "University of San Carlos" since it was referencing a university in the Philippines and not the one in Guatemala City. Instead, I referenced it to the right name, i.e., the "Universidad de San Carlos"
Ruf RT12
This external link is not directed to the article named any more:
Chicago Tribune, February 4, 2006: "Newberry's 'Mayan Bible' draws experts, immigrants"
I recall seeing an animated version of at least some of the Popul Vuh. Does anyone else recall it and can tell me it's name?
This page has been copy/pasted directly from this link: [1] and I do not see it listed anywhere in the sources (not that plagiarism in any form should be tolerated). -- Chrishans ( talk) 10:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
No seperate notability asserted in the article. JASpencer ( talk) 11:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The article switches between these two terms. I know they're interchangeable, but for consistency, should one be given preference over another? Anyone know which term is used more in other Mayan articles? - CaptainJae ( talk) 16:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted this sentence:
This book "reference" reads like an advertisement and lacks the necessary bibliographic data (as a minimum, author, year, and publisher). In any case, there are many "simplified" or "more accessible" versions of the Popol Vuh, with various degrees of fidelity to the original. Tedlock's, for instance, is already a "free translation". If we are to list such books,they had better be notable in some respect. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 18:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi, most of my recent edits to this article were reverted wholesale. While my edits may have introduced errors and bad prose, I honestly believe that they greatly improved the article. The history section, in particular, was all jumbled and apparently ignored recent publications, such as Allen Christenson's new translation. The revert also discarded all the inlined references, which are the WP standard ref style and got me a lot of work to put in. Will the editor please discuss the matter here, before gong on with the revert? Thank you, and all the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 21:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I undid your history changes due to new evidence which will appear soon in a reputable journal. I did not have time to add full citations, but insofar as WP is a first source of info for so many web users, I thought it best to revert the history before the start of the school year this week. I thought your other edits were overly ambitious and painted with a broad brush, but I left them alone. Had you looked back at the history, you would have seen that my prior edits were generally acceptable. Rewriting an entire article with 23 edits in one fell swoop (as you did on Aug 3) seems a bit egotistical. Better to do it incrementally to allow others to consider the changes? I can't imagine someone being an expert on every dimmension of Popol Vuh. I for one, stayed away from the mythological content, b/c I am a colonialist, not a mythologist. I think it wopuld be appropriate for you to change the history back so that I can add the citations. Now, I've never had someone ask me to use the "talk" page before, so I've never been concerned with learning the process...hopefully this is the correct method.
AmericanGringo (
talk) 14:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
On another matter, I disagree with translating Spanish quotations to English. Colonial writing has many peculiarities that are only captured through the literal presentation. I propose that if the exact citation is undesirable for the English article, that the quotations be translated parenthetically or marginally in a footnote. AmericanGringo ( talk) 15:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I admit (and realized the contradiction at the time I wrote it) your statement about whole cloth editing. I also realize that WP is not a crystal ball. However, WP is also not at the same level of rigor as traditional referred publishing. Therefore, avoiding unauthoritative statements should be the first consideration of contributors rather than the duty of reviewers. In other words, better to let thing slide as potentially incomplete rather than advance potentially incorrect information. As I stated, the school year is starting this week, and one would expect WP consults to rise. AmericanGringo ( talk) 16:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, does anyone have an opinion on linking to WP's fr cite for an article that does not yet have an en stub? AmericanGringo ( talk) 16:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, contributor interest on PV has heated up since CJLL Wright and I spent time on it in 2008. So I'm going to propose some history revision here first. A big problem with the history, in my analysis as a colonialist, is that there is a Western presumption of writing as a necessary precursor to formal discourse. In truth, the Maya and Aztec had (in)formal schools of rhetoric where apprenticing rhetoriticians spent years memorizing oral discourses of unimaginable length. This was the case during Plato's time where orality was superior to writing, but Western intellectualism in the colonial period rejected this paradigm, as Michel Foucault points out, b/c of a renaissance inversion of written discourse over oral discourse. For the Maya, knowledge was alive and had to be deposited in a living being, not on a piece of paper or monument. It is equivalent to the story of George Washington throwing a silver dollar across the Patomac river. The legend was not written; it survived by oral passage, but on occasion, one might see an artist's depiction of the supposed event. The same could be said of Genesis, which survived as oral tradition for centuries or millennia before being written down. In this context, the only certainty is that Ximénez's text is the oldest surviving account. Whether or not there was a precursive text, phonetic or glyphic, is speculative. The "many such books" that Xim. mentions in Historia de la Prov. is explained by Scherzer to be a "formula cabalistica" and therefore does not directly signify that the Maya had actual "literary" manuscripts. Similarly, the Florentine Codex exists as a result of Sahagún's conservation and no precursory text is reasonably hypothecated (which I will contribute a fwe lines in the next few days, so please don't jump on rewriting it right now...just wait a few days). I feel a better presentation of the History section is to start out with what is certain and work backward s.t. Xim. → 19th cen rediscovery → 20th cen rediscovery → theorized original(s). Move "modern editions" somewhere else b/c by definition "modern" does not fit well in a "history."
And we should all settle the issue of "book" b/c the Maya did not have "books." We need to (as Maunus did) and unify the references as manuscript, holograph, text, manuscript, or codex (any others I'm missing?).
AmericanGringo ( talk) 18:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
AmericanGringo wrote:
Giving the Spanish quotation is appropriate in a scholarly publication (journal article, thesis, book, monograph, etc.), where the readers are supposed to know the language, and where utmost accuracy is essential. But Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a scholarly publication. You can bet that 90% of the readers do not understand Spanish, and will not appreciate the fine points you mention, in any language. Even those who can read Spanish may misunderstand quotations in colonial Spanish.
Wikipedia articles should be written for *those* readers, and not for the scholars who can and should read better sources. To that target public, the Spanish quotations would be useless clutter, if not subtly disparaging ("You cannot read Spanish? Who cares! Wikipedia is not for ignorant people like you!").
IMHO, our goal as editors is to make the information accessible to those readers. That includes sticking to language that they can understand (even if it is not precise enough by scholarly standards), and translating the quotations into English (if quotations are indeed necessary — which is hardly ever the case.) All the best, --
Jorge Stolfi (
talk) 00:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Quoting WP: "However, do use sources in other languages where appropriate. When directly quoting a source in a different language, please provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation. The original-language quotation aids readers in verification, and the translation makes the information accessible to readers that do not read the original language." AmericanGringo ( talk) 00:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
If we are going to be footnoting original-language quotations, the number of entries in the ref list is getting quite long and congested. Possibly not very "accessible" for a reader or student using WP as a stepping stone to get acquiainted with PV? What does anyone think about going to WP's Short cite for the reasons explained by WP? AmericanGringo ( talk) 04:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I was looking at fr version [3] and I liked the fact that ref notes aren't enclosed by brackets. Is there a way to do the same thing here? AmericanGringo ( talk) 02:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
The cite journal for López did not include page range from journal. In the process, I found it helpful to use the bulkier layout b/c it seemed clearer to me. I'm not suggesting reformatting all the bibliography entries, but does anyone have any thoughts on using it for future cites?
The history section now is too long and detailed, and has little relevance to the contents and interpretation of the book. Since this article is titled "Popol Vuh", and not "Ayers Ms. 1515", we should move the History section to the end of the article and retitle it "History of the manuscript" (or whatever), so as to give precedence to the sections that discuss the book itself.
On the other hand, the lead section should have a one-paragraph summary of that history section, so that the reader can undertand its nature and importance. The only really important information is that it is a collection of pre-Columbian legends and chronicles, written down by natives around 1550 in poetical K'iche', and is the only surviving Mayan "epic" poem and native account of Mayan cosmology and mythology (or whatever). I would not mention even Father Ximenez in this lead sumamry. All the best, --
Jorge Stolfi (
talk) 17:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The excerpts are way too long. They are only intended to give a flavour of the text and possibly a flavour of how different translations have varied. The actual contents should be paraphrased. Check WP:QUOTE for guidelines about direct quotations. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I changed the subsection's heading since this part of the text is not so much about corroborations (and what is actually being corroborated? we know that the Popol Vuh exists), as about the Classic Twin myth. Thus, the text does not contribute to the topic of "The PV Today", its influence in modern times etc., and it should therefore not be a subsection of this discussion. Furthermore, it is still very wordy and needs to be revised. 77.162.130.139 ( talk) 14:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a problem with the excerpts in Line 6, "all pulsating" in the English version. The Spanish version has callado, "silent" or "quiet". The K'iche' version I think is mispelt and should be kalilonik, which also means "silent" or "calm" (although my K'iche' is now way too rusty to be trusted and all my K'iche' grammar books are on the other side of the Atlantic). Neither of these equates to "pulsating" given in the English version. Christenson's K'iche'/English version on Mesoweb gives "it is hushed" (on p5) and with the K'iche' spelling actually in the article (so that's probably right and I'm probably wrong).
The only version of the Popol Vuh I have to hand is the K'iche'/Spanish version by Adrián Inés Chávez, useful but not the best version and not helpful enough to sort out the above. Simon Burchell ( talk) 21:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
It's true that «Popol Vuh» is very similar to «Papel Vu» [«Your Book»], but is ovvious that is not possible that «Popol Vuh» means «Your Paper». When I talked about Popol Vuh with my grandama, she thinked that «Popol Vuh» means «People Book» because in italian “popolo” appears just like “popol” (that us Italian speackers pronunce [ˈpopol vʷu]). The translation «Book of the Council» is not correct, because «pop» in modern tzotzil, modern yucatec mayan and ancient quiché/k′iche′ means «cloth». — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.88.109 ( talk) 20:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I deleted the erroneous passage "There are also phonic [???] similarities to "papel" meaning "paper" in Spanish and the possessive form "vu" meaning "you" in Portuguese [???], which would have the literal meaning "The Paper of You" or "Your Paper"." Neither is there a pronoun "vu" in any Portuguese dialect (and even if so: why should it matter to K'iche'?) nor is there a source given for the suggested "phonic" resemblance. "Popol" BTW rather resonates with "popul(ar)" in Spanish. Similarly you could say as K'ich'e /wuj/ sounds like "Buch" for "book" in German it could be understood as "popular book" in Germany. Irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4CA0:4403:0:54D5:F37D:FAB4:A6AA ( talk) 15:13, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
No, the evidence is quite clear that it is not "poop." It should also be clarified for all that any linguistic sympathy that one might perceive with German, Italian, or Portuguese is entirely irrelevant when assigning meaning or pronunciation. None of these languages can contribute meaning to a language with which there was no direct (or even indirect) contact. Even with Spanish, one must be careful not to infer meaning which did not exist. And as has been hinted in other talk edits, one must be absolutely mindful not to assign modern linguistic signification to the pre-conquist meaning. For example, pre-conquest Quiche/K'iche' had no signifier for "to write" because the concept of writing (in the sense of phonetic spelling) was purely European. Post-conquest Quiche experienced a linguistic broadening of "xchicatzibaj" which came to mean both "to paint" and "to write." While I personally do not agree with equality of the three rendering which had been listed, for these foregoing reasons I also cannot agree that it is correct to reduce the three proffered meanings (which were noted with "or") into a single rendering of the title's signification. AmericanGringo ( talk) 20:14, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I would also mention that pre-conquest Vuh/Wuj/Wuu/Wuh was not the same thing as a book. It was in fact a fan-fold series of lime-bleached birch wood. They did not manufacturer "paper" as Western thinkers would conceive it. AmericanGringo ( talk) 20:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Parallelism is a key structure in ANY indo-european language. Some of the recent edits have mixed definite and indefinite articles. It is incorrect to write "a creation myth, a diluvian suggestion, and the epic narrative [...], and finally a genealogy." When sequencing items in a list, all should be indefinite articles (a,an), definite articles (the), or possessive pronouns (its). There should also not be two "and" joiners. AmericanGringo ( talk) 02:19, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm beginning work on this article for a class I am in, if anyone has any recommendations for books, sources, etc. I would appreciate them! The references section below the Notes seems a little off? If you compare it to something like Aztec society it's a bit different... Does the "Editions" section change how it's formatted? Sjwkcc ( talk) 16:26, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Just so anyone that might see this is confused, I'm working on this article for a class through wikiedu. So, if some of my notes and comments seem like I'm talking to no one, it's because they are graded assignments. :)
Some ideas of what we can add/change:
Potentially Relevant Sources:
Books that I need to see if there are online versions of:
Sjwkcc ( talk) 16:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello! I'm going to make some big changes along with my partner today. Here's a list of the things we will be doing:
Discussion on the three sets of twins, The Lords of the Underworld (Xibabla), and the trials they faced leading up to the ballgame.
GuyJWG ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)GuyJWG GuyJWG ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I polished this section of the article up by adding hyperlinks to subjects mentioned. Such as; Mayan Hero Twins, Xibalba, Post-Classic, and Early Classic. I also corrected a few minor spelling errors. I will continue to make additions to this article.
Redid the section of structure to include cited material and fixed some errors with some of the sections.
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I appreciate the family tree picture, but there are several problems with it: (1) it should connect to the article's iconography section, but it doesn't; (2) the source(s) for its various identifications of Classic and codical deities with PV characters should be made clear; (3) some of the identifications are clearly wrong (for example, the picture of a seated woman is taken as the male Twin Xbalanque). If these problems can't be remedied, the picture should be removed. Retal ( talk) 16:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The famiy tree picture incorrectly lists hunaphu as a moon god rather than sun god. xxxx — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
162.193.185.218 (
talk) 18:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
How is "Popol Vuh" pronounced? A quick Internet search provides conflicting and confusing results. 108.208.237.65 ( talk) 17:11, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2022 and 11 March 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Axolotl3 ( article contribs).
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): GuyJWG, Sjwkcc. Peer reviewers: Bmdv23, Murph0008, Emily Quist.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 06:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Hajor, I relocated the secondary meanings line to below the opening paragraph because it seems much better that way. I know that placing the "disamb" at the
top is common practice, however it is only one solution and does not rule
out other solutions, like mine. Here is another excuse: the bands were named after the book (rather than coincidentally, or all three from some other source), so my solution gives that information in a simple and natural way. More importantly, placing the disamb at the top violates the important rule that the article should begin with a definition of the title. Finally placing the secondary meanings at the top gives them undeserved prominence.
All the best,
Jorge Stolfi 05:40, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I took out a reference to the "University of San Carlos" since it was referencing a university in the Philippines and not the one in Guatemala City. Instead, I referenced it to the right name, i.e., the "Universidad de San Carlos"
Ruf RT12
This external link is not directed to the article named any more:
Chicago Tribune, February 4, 2006: "Newberry's 'Mayan Bible' draws experts, immigrants"
I recall seeing an animated version of at least some of the Popul Vuh. Does anyone else recall it and can tell me it's name?
This page has been copy/pasted directly from this link: [1] and I do not see it listed anywhere in the sources (not that plagiarism in any form should be tolerated). -- Chrishans ( talk) 10:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
No seperate notability asserted in the article. JASpencer ( talk) 11:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The article switches between these two terms. I know they're interchangeable, but for consistency, should one be given preference over another? Anyone know which term is used more in other Mayan articles? - CaptainJae ( talk) 16:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted this sentence:
This book "reference" reads like an advertisement and lacks the necessary bibliographic data (as a minimum, author, year, and publisher). In any case, there are many "simplified" or "more accessible" versions of the Popol Vuh, with various degrees of fidelity to the original. Tedlock's, for instance, is already a "free translation". If we are to list such books,they had better be notable in some respect. All the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 18:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi, most of my recent edits to this article were reverted wholesale. While my edits may have introduced errors and bad prose, I honestly believe that they greatly improved the article. The history section, in particular, was all jumbled and apparently ignored recent publications, such as Allen Christenson's new translation. The revert also discarded all the inlined references, which are the WP standard ref style and got me a lot of work to put in. Will the editor please discuss the matter here, before gong on with the revert? Thank you, and all the best, -- Jorge Stolfi ( talk) 21:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I undid your history changes due to new evidence which will appear soon in a reputable journal. I did not have time to add full citations, but insofar as WP is a first source of info for so many web users, I thought it best to revert the history before the start of the school year this week. I thought your other edits were overly ambitious and painted with a broad brush, but I left them alone. Had you looked back at the history, you would have seen that my prior edits were generally acceptable. Rewriting an entire article with 23 edits in one fell swoop (as you did on Aug 3) seems a bit egotistical. Better to do it incrementally to allow others to consider the changes? I can't imagine someone being an expert on every dimmension of Popol Vuh. I for one, stayed away from the mythological content, b/c I am a colonialist, not a mythologist. I think it wopuld be appropriate for you to change the history back so that I can add the citations. Now, I've never had someone ask me to use the "talk" page before, so I've never been concerned with learning the process...hopefully this is the correct method.
AmericanGringo (
talk) 14:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
On another matter, I disagree with translating Spanish quotations to English. Colonial writing has many peculiarities that are only captured through the literal presentation. I propose that if the exact citation is undesirable for the English article, that the quotations be translated parenthetically or marginally in a footnote. AmericanGringo ( talk) 15:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I admit (and realized the contradiction at the time I wrote it) your statement about whole cloth editing. I also realize that WP is not a crystal ball. However, WP is also not at the same level of rigor as traditional referred publishing. Therefore, avoiding unauthoritative statements should be the first consideration of contributors rather than the duty of reviewers. In other words, better to let thing slide as potentially incomplete rather than advance potentially incorrect information. As I stated, the school year is starting this week, and one would expect WP consults to rise. AmericanGringo ( talk) 16:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, does anyone have an opinion on linking to WP's fr cite for an article that does not yet have an en stub? AmericanGringo ( talk) 16:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, contributor interest on PV has heated up since CJLL Wright and I spent time on it in 2008. So I'm going to propose some history revision here first. A big problem with the history, in my analysis as a colonialist, is that there is a Western presumption of writing as a necessary precursor to formal discourse. In truth, the Maya and Aztec had (in)formal schools of rhetoric where apprenticing rhetoriticians spent years memorizing oral discourses of unimaginable length. This was the case during Plato's time where orality was superior to writing, but Western intellectualism in the colonial period rejected this paradigm, as Michel Foucault points out, b/c of a renaissance inversion of written discourse over oral discourse. For the Maya, knowledge was alive and had to be deposited in a living being, not on a piece of paper or monument. It is equivalent to the story of George Washington throwing a silver dollar across the Patomac river. The legend was not written; it survived by oral passage, but on occasion, one might see an artist's depiction of the supposed event. The same could be said of Genesis, which survived as oral tradition for centuries or millennia before being written down. In this context, the only certainty is that Ximénez's text is the oldest surviving account. Whether or not there was a precursive text, phonetic or glyphic, is speculative. The "many such books" that Xim. mentions in Historia de la Prov. is explained by Scherzer to be a "formula cabalistica" and therefore does not directly signify that the Maya had actual "literary" manuscripts. Similarly, the Florentine Codex exists as a result of Sahagún's conservation and no precursory text is reasonably hypothecated (which I will contribute a fwe lines in the next few days, so please don't jump on rewriting it right now...just wait a few days). I feel a better presentation of the History section is to start out with what is certain and work backward s.t. Xim. → 19th cen rediscovery → 20th cen rediscovery → theorized original(s). Move "modern editions" somewhere else b/c by definition "modern" does not fit well in a "history."
And we should all settle the issue of "book" b/c the Maya did not have "books." We need to (as Maunus did) and unify the references as manuscript, holograph, text, manuscript, or codex (any others I'm missing?).
AmericanGringo ( talk) 18:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
AmericanGringo wrote:
Giving the Spanish quotation is appropriate in a scholarly publication (journal article, thesis, book, monograph, etc.), where the readers are supposed to know the language, and where utmost accuracy is essential. But Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a scholarly publication. You can bet that 90% of the readers do not understand Spanish, and will not appreciate the fine points you mention, in any language. Even those who can read Spanish may misunderstand quotations in colonial Spanish.
Wikipedia articles should be written for *those* readers, and not for the scholars who can and should read better sources. To that target public, the Spanish quotations would be useless clutter, if not subtly disparaging ("You cannot read Spanish? Who cares! Wikipedia is not for ignorant people like you!").
IMHO, our goal as editors is to make the information accessible to those readers. That includes sticking to language that they can understand (even if it is not precise enough by scholarly standards), and translating the quotations into English (if quotations are indeed necessary — which is hardly ever the case.) All the best, --
Jorge Stolfi (
talk) 00:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Quoting WP: "However, do use sources in other languages where appropriate. When directly quoting a source in a different language, please provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation. The original-language quotation aids readers in verification, and the translation makes the information accessible to readers that do not read the original language." AmericanGringo ( talk) 00:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
If we are going to be footnoting original-language quotations, the number of entries in the ref list is getting quite long and congested. Possibly not very "accessible" for a reader or student using WP as a stepping stone to get acquiainted with PV? What does anyone think about going to WP's Short cite for the reasons explained by WP? AmericanGringo ( talk) 04:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I was looking at fr version [3] and I liked the fact that ref notes aren't enclosed by brackets. Is there a way to do the same thing here? AmericanGringo ( talk) 02:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
The cite journal for López did not include page range from journal. In the process, I found it helpful to use the bulkier layout b/c it seemed clearer to me. I'm not suggesting reformatting all the bibliography entries, but does anyone have any thoughts on using it for future cites?
The history section now is too long and detailed, and has little relevance to the contents and interpretation of the book. Since this article is titled "Popol Vuh", and not "Ayers Ms. 1515", we should move the History section to the end of the article and retitle it "History of the manuscript" (or whatever), so as to give precedence to the sections that discuss the book itself.
On the other hand, the lead section should have a one-paragraph summary of that history section, so that the reader can undertand its nature and importance. The only really important information is that it is a collection of pre-Columbian legends and chronicles, written down by natives around 1550 in poetical K'iche', and is the only surviving Mayan "epic" poem and native account of Mayan cosmology and mythology (or whatever). I would not mention even Father Ximenez in this lead sumamry. All the best, --
Jorge Stolfi (
talk) 17:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The excerpts are way too long. They are only intended to give a flavour of the text and possibly a flavour of how different translations have varied. The actual contents should be paraphrased. Check WP:QUOTE for guidelines about direct quotations. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I changed the subsection's heading since this part of the text is not so much about corroborations (and what is actually being corroborated? we know that the Popol Vuh exists), as about the Classic Twin myth. Thus, the text does not contribute to the topic of "The PV Today", its influence in modern times etc., and it should therefore not be a subsection of this discussion. Furthermore, it is still very wordy and needs to be revised. 77.162.130.139 ( talk) 14:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a problem with the excerpts in Line 6, "all pulsating" in the English version. The Spanish version has callado, "silent" or "quiet". The K'iche' version I think is mispelt and should be kalilonik, which also means "silent" or "calm" (although my K'iche' is now way too rusty to be trusted and all my K'iche' grammar books are on the other side of the Atlantic). Neither of these equates to "pulsating" given in the English version. Christenson's K'iche'/English version on Mesoweb gives "it is hushed" (on p5) and with the K'iche' spelling actually in the article (so that's probably right and I'm probably wrong).
The only version of the Popol Vuh I have to hand is the K'iche'/Spanish version by Adrián Inés Chávez, useful but not the best version and not helpful enough to sort out the above. Simon Burchell ( talk) 21:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
It's true that «Popol Vuh» is very similar to «Papel Vu» [«Your Book»], but is ovvious that is not possible that «Popol Vuh» means «Your Paper». When I talked about Popol Vuh with my grandama, she thinked that «Popol Vuh» means «People Book» because in italian “popolo” appears just like “popol” (that us Italian speackers pronunce [ˈpopol vʷu]). The translation «Book of the Council» is not correct, because «pop» in modern tzotzil, modern yucatec mayan and ancient quiché/k′iche′ means «cloth». — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.88.109 ( talk) 20:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I deleted the erroneous passage "There are also phonic [???] similarities to "papel" meaning "paper" in Spanish and the possessive form "vu" meaning "you" in Portuguese [???], which would have the literal meaning "The Paper of You" or "Your Paper"." Neither is there a pronoun "vu" in any Portuguese dialect (and even if so: why should it matter to K'iche'?) nor is there a source given for the suggested "phonic" resemblance. "Popol" BTW rather resonates with "popul(ar)" in Spanish. Similarly you could say as K'ich'e /wuj/ sounds like "Buch" for "book" in German it could be understood as "popular book" in Germany. Irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4CA0:4403:0:54D5:F37D:FAB4:A6AA ( talk) 15:13, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
No, the evidence is quite clear that it is not "poop." It should also be clarified for all that any linguistic sympathy that one might perceive with German, Italian, or Portuguese is entirely irrelevant when assigning meaning or pronunciation. None of these languages can contribute meaning to a language with which there was no direct (or even indirect) contact. Even with Spanish, one must be careful not to infer meaning which did not exist. And as has been hinted in other talk edits, one must be absolutely mindful not to assign modern linguistic signification to the pre-conquist meaning. For example, pre-conquest Quiche/K'iche' had no signifier for "to write" because the concept of writing (in the sense of phonetic spelling) was purely European. Post-conquest Quiche experienced a linguistic broadening of "xchicatzibaj" which came to mean both "to paint" and "to write." While I personally do not agree with equality of the three rendering which had been listed, for these foregoing reasons I also cannot agree that it is correct to reduce the three proffered meanings (which were noted with "or") into a single rendering of the title's signification. AmericanGringo ( talk) 20:14, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I would also mention that pre-conquest Vuh/Wuj/Wuu/Wuh was not the same thing as a book. It was in fact a fan-fold series of lime-bleached birch wood. They did not manufacturer "paper" as Western thinkers would conceive it. AmericanGringo ( talk) 20:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Parallelism is a key structure in ANY indo-european language. Some of the recent edits have mixed definite and indefinite articles. It is incorrect to write "a creation myth, a diluvian suggestion, and the epic narrative [...], and finally a genealogy." When sequencing items in a list, all should be indefinite articles (a,an), definite articles (the), or possessive pronouns (its). There should also not be two "and" joiners. AmericanGringo ( talk) 02:19, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm beginning work on this article for a class I am in, if anyone has any recommendations for books, sources, etc. I would appreciate them! The references section below the Notes seems a little off? If you compare it to something like Aztec society it's a bit different... Does the "Editions" section change how it's formatted? Sjwkcc ( talk) 16:26, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Just so anyone that might see this is confused, I'm working on this article for a class through wikiedu. So, if some of my notes and comments seem like I'm talking to no one, it's because they are graded assignments. :)
Some ideas of what we can add/change:
Potentially Relevant Sources:
Books that I need to see if there are online versions of:
Sjwkcc ( talk) 16:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello! I'm going to make some big changes along with my partner today. Here's a list of the things we will be doing:
Discussion on the three sets of twins, The Lords of the Underworld (Xibabla), and the trials they faced leading up to the ballgame.
GuyJWG ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)GuyJWG GuyJWG ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I polished this section of the article up by adding hyperlinks to subjects mentioned. Such as; Mayan Hero Twins, Xibalba, Post-Classic, and Early Classic. I also corrected a few minor spelling errors. I will continue to make additions to this article.
Redid the section of structure to include cited material and fixed some errors with some of the sections.
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I appreciate the family tree picture, but there are several problems with it: (1) it should connect to the article's iconography section, but it doesn't; (2) the source(s) for its various identifications of Classic and codical deities with PV characters should be made clear; (3) some of the identifications are clearly wrong (for example, the picture of a seated woman is taken as the male Twin Xbalanque). If these problems can't be remedied, the picture should be removed. Retal ( talk) 16:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The famiy tree picture incorrectly lists hunaphu as a moon god rather than sun god. xxxx — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
162.193.185.218 (
talk) 18:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
How is "Popol Vuh" pronounced? A quick Internet search provides conflicting and confusing results. 108.208.237.65 ( talk) 17:11, 25 May 2019 (UTC)