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It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 20:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
--- Perhaps anyone of you working on this article know anything more about Bishop Thomas of the El-Qussia and Mair Diocese in Upper Egypt? He recieved a norwegian award for his human rights work, but I can find very little information on him. Vintermann 09:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Theological Disputes As a Copt, this section on this article seems to somewhat insult Pope Shenouda III. Is there any chance to make this more neutral??? Also, we Orthodox Copts view Pope Shenouda with a loving passion (the same way Roman Catholics felt towards Pope John Paul II). Shouldn't it at least mention that somewhere on the article? (I do have sources to back that up anyway.)
Lastly, I have simply found NO EVIDENCE that Pope Shenouda III teaches OR believes in monothelitism. It has been totally rejected by many — especially by Orthodox Copts... If you have any reliable sources or any piece of true evidence, be my guest. You'll never, however, find anything that puts Pope Shenouda in line with monothelitism as he has never wrote or said anything that supports this heresy. He is regarded as a living Saint who is serious when it comes to important theological questions. He has studied in the theological seminary and is a well educated man (in fact, he was even Bishop for education before becoming Pope).
I require other Copts to verify this and other sections of the article. I would also like any other input on the matter.
Thanks,
Actually I agree with every single word that Troy07 said. The articles has obvious POV's and unsubstantiated claims against Pope Shenouda. It needs to be rewritten in a more neutral manner. -- Lanternix 01:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Diabulos 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC) I find the line: 'The recent theological disputes, in reference to Matta El-Meskeen and Babawi, have been taken to a far greater extent then perhaps they should have been. Firstly, Pope Shenouda on no account denies the Divinity of Christ. The problem stems from the missunderstanding of the concept of Theosis. Some "theologians" such as Babawi have taken theosis to mean that man may become God by partaking in the essence of God. This is incorrect, and Pope Shenouda is right to react against such wayward theology.' inapropiate for an enciclopedia, as it states a POV quite dramatically, specially the part 'this is incorrect, and pope ... is right to react' that is a personal opinion, not an attributed opinion to one of the actors in the biography and intrinsically related to the events, it is plainly the POV of the author, it should be erased. Diabulos 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an honorific relating to the persons standing in a particular community, and not a title. I checked the other Pope's page, and don't see it used there. Avruch Talk 03:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes for more information. You could, as this suggests, mention in the article that he is properly referred to as 'His Holiness' in person. Avruch Talk 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Titles such as Pope, Lord, Justice, etc. are acceptable but honorifics are not. So it would be great if people would stop inserting them. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 05:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
All that means is that those articles need to be edited to conform with wikistandards. Again, here is the relevant page in the MoS.
"...Styles should not be used to open articles on royalty and popes. Thus the article on Pope Benedict XVI should not begin "His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI... " nor should the article on Queen Victoria begin "Her Majesty Queen Victoria..." Such styles should, however, be discussed in the article proper..."
If you want to discuss what titles he is called by feel free to add a section like that to the article but when referring to him or his activities Pope Shenouda, the Pope, Shenouda, his real name, etc. Will do just fine. Also just because certain religious groups can and do refer to their leaders in a certain way does not make such references appropriate or encyclopedic. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 23:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
He is known for his commitment to Christian unity and has, since the 1970s, advocated inter-denominational Christian dialogue.
This statement upsets me. This man may be good when it comes to Christian vs. Muslim which is the major conflict that results in Egypt. But this mans church vs. other Christian religions or beliefs... he is far from being an advocate for dialogue. The above statement is an opinion. Facts need to prove such a statement. I believe these facts do not exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themudd2001 ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
BLP violation removed 77.248.185.98 ( talk) 15:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
You have no right to strike my comment. It does not contain offensive language, it is merely a statement made about BLP violation removed. Now if you are offended by that, you have got bad luck, because wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia where reverts out of religious point of view are not allowed. This is your second unlawfull edit and it is getting clear by now that you are driven by religious motives to disrupt wikipedia's neutrality. 77.248.185.98 ( talk) 20:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Let's calm down, everyone.
To 77.248.185.98: I understand that you mean no offense in writing that comment. You were just making an observation. I can see BLP violation removed. I don't think the other editors are trying to strike your comment out of religious motives. They just think that, although what you said may be true, it is...kind of off-topic for an encyclopedia project.
What they're saying is that talk pages are for discussing things that have to do with improving the article. Other kinds of discussions, even if they have something to do with the article, should be kept to a minimum.
I mean no offense to you or anyone else, and if anyone feels offended, I apologize.
By the way, although striking another editor's comment is sometimes uncivil, I wouldn't go so far as to call it vandalism; impolite, perhaps, but not malicious vandalism. I think this case is a simple disagreement, not vandalism.
Respectfully, SunDragon34 ( talk) 21:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Also be advised anyone making any changes on my comment without my approval will get a warning and will be reported to wikipedia for disrupting order.
77.248.185.98 (
talk)
21:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I haven't read through the entire article, but after reading some parts of it I must say it is highly inflammatory. Here are the following paragraphs that need rewriting. They also, above all else, need reliable sources.
After a long period of late 1970s of massive terror attacks from the Muslim Extremists against the Copts, their territories and churches all over Egypt, the state (and President Sadat) did not respond to the demand of the Copts and the church to protect them. Sadat tried to satisfy the Muslim extremists on the cost of the Copts. After about a Year of negotiations and petitions to the President and the state, no active protection was offered and they did not respond to stop the terror attacks. A number of Copts were killed and hundreds were injured was the result of a couple of years of massive terror against the Copts.
The Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt has suffered much since the Arab Invasion in the seventh century.
Under these difficult conditions, Pope Shenouda III has been doing all that he can politically to minimize the tension and keep the social freedom. In spite of these awful attacks, discrimination and the attitude of the responsible persons, he preserves good relations with the persons responsible and with the Sheikh of Al-Azhar.
In the last ten years the Copts suffered many terror attacks resulting of tens of thousands of deaths. None of the terrorists were punished for murdering the Copts.
On Wikipedia, we avoid using the terms "terrorists" and "extremists". See WP:AVOID for details. Also claims of tens of thousands of people being killed should be backed either by news sources or books. YouTube and promotional websites should be avoided. In addition, most of the article does not have sources backing the information—a lot of which simply complements or praises the pope. I myself like Pope Shenouda and a lot of other people who have articles on Wikipedia, but editors have to try hard to abide to the rule of "Neutral Point-of-View". -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 22:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
In the section Bishop is this sentence: "Pope Cyril VI appointed him to the bishopric of Christian Education and as Dean of the Coptic Orthodox Theological Seminary, naming him . " I assume the last word should be "Shenouda," but I'm not sure. Somebody want to fix it? Queezbo ( talk) 20:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This is insulting. The rendition of the pope's name is illegible; I do not believe the photo is really Pope Shnouda. This needs attention! And I'm not going to do it just to get jumped by a bunch of angry editors. You need to address these issues.-- Djathink imacowboy 19:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
per this: WP cant cite itself, further the link itself has a disambiguation title that lead to other options( Lihaas ( talk) 15:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)).
In this section, it says the he was made antonios al-syriani, and translates into anthony the syrian, actually i think it should be anthony the syriac.
this removed sourced content to RS...when the alternative was to reword...especially the 2nd bit that i tried to readd since it wasnt explained to remove. As for the edit that i explained, and was refuted as "not attributed" : "The Vatican also paid tribute to Shenouda and said that Pope Benedict XVI had offered "prayers of suffrage"." -- it cant get more blatantly attributed.( Lihaas ( talk) 19:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)).
Does anyone know how to fix the script characters in the Coptic translation of the Pope's name? Also, I thought the Copts used the Arabic script. Is this not the case? -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Pope Shenouda III's Signature.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Pope Shenouda III's Signature.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 09:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC) |
Who consecrated him to the episcopate? -- Jaques O. Carvalho ☜ 23:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
A new Coptic pope has been elected! Datu Dong ( talk) 10:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:09, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I added a sentence to the Reaction subheading under Illness and death making reference to the massive crush among mourners waiting to view the pope's body. My intention was to give information about an important historical event that happened during the events of his mourning (which is on-topic for that section of the article), and to give a reflection of the huge number of mourners who came to the cathedral. I don't think this event should be ignored in a section that describes his mourning and funeral, though I am also aware that it might be a sensitive issue to those who want to remember only the best qualities of the pope and the celebration of his life. But we need to be neutral and encyclopedic. If anyone thinks my writing could be reworded to be more sensitive, feel free, but I think the content should remain. I looked through the article's revision history and did not see any edit summaries addressing this issue, nor is there anything on the current talk page. Dcs002 ( talk) 21:31, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
"Many colleges dictate quotas for Coptic students, often around 1 or 2% despite the group making up as much as 15% of the country's population[citation needed]. There is also a separate tax-funded education system called Al Azhar, catering to students from elementary to college level, which accepts no Christian Coptic students, teachers or administrators."
This is a pretty substantial claim to make and should not be in the article without proper sources, so I've removed it. -- Hazachu ( talk) 05:08, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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As this is an article about a Coptic leader, doesn't it make sense to write the dates in this article in the Coptic calendar, alongside the Gregorian calendar? 68.225.173.217 ( talk) 23:47, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria at the Reference desk. |
A news item involving Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 18 March 2012. |
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It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 20:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
--- Perhaps anyone of you working on this article know anything more about Bishop Thomas of the El-Qussia and Mair Diocese in Upper Egypt? He recieved a norwegian award for his human rights work, but I can find very little information on him. Vintermann 09:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Theological Disputes As a Copt, this section on this article seems to somewhat insult Pope Shenouda III. Is there any chance to make this more neutral??? Also, we Orthodox Copts view Pope Shenouda with a loving passion (the same way Roman Catholics felt towards Pope John Paul II). Shouldn't it at least mention that somewhere on the article? (I do have sources to back that up anyway.)
Lastly, I have simply found NO EVIDENCE that Pope Shenouda III teaches OR believes in monothelitism. It has been totally rejected by many — especially by Orthodox Copts... If you have any reliable sources or any piece of true evidence, be my guest. You'll never, however, find anything that puts Pope Shenouda in line with monothelitism as he has never wrote or said anything that supports this heresy. He is regarded as a living Saint who is serious when it comes to important theological questions. He has studied in the theological seminary and is a well educated man (in fact, he was even Bishop for education before becoming Pope).
I require other Copts to verify this and other sections of the article. I would also like any other input on the matter.
Thanks,
Actually I agree with every single word that Troy07 said. The articles has obvious POV's and unsubstantiated claims against Pope Shenouda. It needs to be rewritten in a more neutral manner. -- Lanternix 01:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Diabulos 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC) I find the line: 'The recent theological disputes, in reference to Matta El-Meskeen and Babawi, have been taken to a far greater extent then perhaps they should have been. Firstly, Pope Shenouda on no account denies the Divinity of Christ. The problem stems from the missunderstanding of the concept of Theosis. Some "theologians" such as Babawi have taken theosis to mean that man may become God by partaking in the essence of God. This is incorrect, and Pope Shenouda is right to react against such wayward theology.' inapropiate for an enciclopedia, as it states a POV quite dramatically, specially the part 'this is incorrect, and pope ... is right to react' that is a personal opinion, not an attributed opinion to one of the actors in the biography and intrinsically related to the events, it is plainly the POV of the author, it should be erased. Diabulos 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an honorific relating to the persons standing in a particular community, and not a title. I checked the other Pope's page, and don't see it used there. Avruch Talk 03:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes for more information. You could, as this suggests, mention in the article that he is properly referred to as 'His Holiness' in person. Avruch Talk 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Titles such as Pope, Lord, Justice, etc. are acceptable but honorifics are not. So it would be great if people would stop inserting them. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 05:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
All that means is that those articles need to be edited to conform with wikistandards. Again, here is the relevant page in the MoS.
"...Styles should not be used to open articles on royalty and popes. Thus the article on Pope Benedict XVI should not begin "His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI... " nor should the article on Queen Victoria begin "Her Majesty Queen Victoria..." Such styles should, however, be discussed in the article proper..."
If you want to discuss what titles he is called by feel free to add a section like that to the article but when referring to him or his activities Pope Shenouda, the Pope, Shenouda, his real name, etc. Will do just fine. Also just because certain religious groups can and do refer to their leaders in a certain way does not make such references appropriate or encyclopedic. RecentlyAnon ( talk) 23:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
He is known for his commitment to Christian unity and has, since the 1970s, advocated inter-denominational Christian dialogue.
This statement upsets me. This man may be good when it comes to Christian vs. Muslim which is the major conflict that results in Egypt. But this mans church vs. other Christian religions or beliefs... he is far from being an advocate for dialogue. The above statement is an opinion. Facts need to prove such a statement. I believe these facts do not exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themudd2001 ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
BLP violation removed 77.248.185.98 ( talk) 15:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
You have no right to strike my comment. It does not contain offensive language, it is merely a statement made about BLP violation removed. Now if you are offended by that, you have got bad luck, because wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia where reverts out of religious point of view are not allowed. This is your second unlawfull edit and it is getting clear by now that you are driven by religious motives to disrupt wikipedia's neutrality. 77.248.185.98 ( talk) 20:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Let's calm down, everyone.
To 77.248.185.98: I understand that you mean no offense in writing that comment. You were just making an observation. I can see BLP violation removed. I don't think the other editors are trying to strike your comment out of religious motives. They just think that, although what you said may be true, it is...kind of off-topic for an encyclopedia project.
What they're saying is that talk pages are for discussing things that have to do with improving the article. Other kinds of discussions, even if they have something to do with the article, should be kept to a minimum.
I mean no offense to you or anyone else, and if anyone feels offended, I apologize.
By the way, although striking another editor's comment is sometimes uncivil, I wouldn't go so far as to call it vandalism; impolite, perhaps, but not malicious vandalism. I think this case is a simple disagreement, not vandalism.
Respectfully, SunDragon34 ( talk) 21:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Also be advised anyone making any changes on my comment without my approval will get a warning and will be reported to wikipedia for disrupting order.
77.248.185.98 (
talk)
21:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I haven't read through the entire article, but after reading some parts of it I must say it is highly inflammatory. Here are the following paragraphs that need rewriting. They also, above all else, need reliable sources.
After a long period of late 1970s of massive terror attacks from the Muslim Extremists against the Copts, their territories and churches all over Egypt, the state (and President Sadat) did not respond to the demand of the Copts and the church to protect them. Sadat tried to satisfy the Muslim extremists on the cost of the Copts. After about a Year of negotiations and petitions to the President and the state, no active protection was offered and they did not respond to stop the terror attacks. A number of Copts were killed and hundreds were injured was the result of a couple of years of massive terror against the Copts.
The Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt has suffered much since the Arab Invasion in the seventh century.
Under these difficult conditions, Pope Shenouda III has been doing all that he can politically to minimize the tension and keep the social freedom. In spite of these awful attacks, discrimination and the attitude of the responsible persons, he preserves good relations with the persons responsible and with the Sheikh of Al-Azhar.
In the last ten years the Copts suffered many terror attacks resulting of tens of thousands of deaths. None of the terrorists were punished for murdering the Copts.
On Wikipedia, we avoid using the terms "terrorists" and "extremists". See WP:AVOID for details. Also claims of tens of thousands of people being killed should be backed either by news sources or books. YouTube and promotional websites should be avoided. In addition, most of the article does not have sources backing the information—a lot of which simply complements or praises the pope. I myself like Pope Shenouda and a lot of other people who have articles on Wikipedia, but editors have to try hard to abide to the rule of "Neutral Point-of-View". -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 22:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
In the section Bishop is this sentence: "Pope Cyril VI appointed him to the bishopric of Christian Education and as Dean of the Coptic Orthodox Theological Seminary, naming him . " I assume the last word should be "Shenouda," but I'm not sure. Somebody want to fix it? Queezbo ( talk) 20:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This is insulting. The rendition of the pope's name is illegible; I do not believe the photo is really Pope Shnouda. This needs attention! And I'm not going to do it just to get jumped by a bunch of angry editors. You need to address these issues.-- Djathink imacowboy 19:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
per this: WP cant cite itself, further the link itself has a disambiguation title that lead to other options( Lihaas ( talk) 15:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)).
In this section, it says the he was made antonios al-syriani, and translates into anthony the syrian, actually i think it should be anthony the syriac.
this removed sourced content to RS...when the alternative was to reword...especially the 2nd bit that i tried to readd since it wasnt explained to remove. As for the edit that i explained, and was refuted as "not attributed" : "The Vatican also paid tribute to Shenouda and said that Pope Benedict XVI had offered "prayers of suffrage"." -- it cant get more blatantly attributed.( Lihaas ( talk) 19:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)).
Does anyone know how to fix the script characters in the Coptic translation of the Pope's name? Also, I thought the Copts used the Arabic script. Is this not the case? -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Pope Shenouda III's Signature.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Pope Shenouda III's Signature.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 09:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC) |
Who consecrated him to the episcopate? -- Jaques O. Carvalho ☜ 23:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
A new Coptic pope has been elected! Datu Dong ( talk) 10:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:09, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I added a sentence to the Reaction subheading under Illness and death making reference to the massive crush among mourners waiting to view the pope's body. My intention was to give information about an important historical event that happened during the events of his mourning (which is on-topic for that section of the article), and to give a reflection of the huge number of mourners who came to the cathedral. I don't think this event should be ignored in a section that describes his mourning and funeral, though I am also aware that it might be a sensitive issue to those who want to remember only the best qualities of the pope and the celebration of his life. But we need to be neutral and encyclopedic. If anyone thinks my writing could be reworded to be more sensitive, feel free, but I think the content should remain. I looked through the article's revision history and did not see any edit summaries addressing this issue, nor is there anything on the current talk page. Dcs002 ( talk) 21:31, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
"Many colleges dictate quotas for Coptic students, often around 1 or 2% despite the group making up as much as 15% of the country's population[citation needed]. There is also a separate tax-funded education system called Al Azhar, catering to students from elementary to college level, which accepts no Christian Coptic students, teachers or administrators."
This is a pretty substantial claim to make and should not be in the article without proper sources, so I've removed it. -- Hazachu ( talk) 05:08, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
As this is an article about a Coptic leader, doesn't it make sense to write the dates in this article in the Coptic calendar, alongside the Gregorian calendar? 68.225.173.217 ( talk) 23:47, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)