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I find no support anywhere for Pius X having relaxed fasting rules (Pius XII did so on two occasions during his papacy). In Sacra Tridentia (December 20, 1905) Pius X encourages daily reception of Holy Communion. In Quam Singulari (August 8, 1910), Pius X reduces the age for First Communion and First Reconciliation to "the age of reason or discretion" which is "about the seventh year". This is all I have been able to find in support of the items in the article - i.e., none having to do with fasting. I have ordered Lortz' book as referenced in the article to check the reference myself; however, I am going to delete the fasting portion for now as well as reworking. I will return it if I find support in Lortz or if someone can provide a reference with more detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.152.41 ( talk) 04:08, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Edited the talk about being Polish due to the fact that there is no factual evidence. Anyone can claim that anyone was from anywhere and migrated to anywhere for a "better life". I doubt moving to Italy at that time would be a "better life". My ancestors were fleeing Italy back then "for a better life" to the U.S. The fact that the rumor claimed a Polish/German town automatically made his father Polish is weak.
You say his father was from where? Back there it was part of Germany, Boguschütz, not Poland, so how can you claim someone was "Polish" for borders that did not exist back then? This is clearly garbage and I suggest taking it out. Sure, not only Germans lived in Boguschütz, but if one is from there, doesn't make them automatically Polish. This claim needs to be taken out. Boguschütz was in Schlesien, and not everyone from Schlesien was Polish back then.
Pius X was Patriarch of Venice, and succeeded because of the intervention of the Bishop of Krakow.
In 1978, the Bishop of Krakow succeeded the former Patriarch of Venice as Pope.
I cannot see his successor in Pope Pius X's panel. I've tried to modify it without succeed. Suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.104.164.29 ( talk) 12:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Strongly suspect that the picture you recently have included of Pius X is, in fact, of Pius IX. Can't be certain, however.
The picture is indeed, Pius X.-- Carsjme ( talk) 09:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello everyone I've had a little piece of information to this article and in the same time I would like to create a link to what I've add, the word is Salzano Thank you very much indeed
A discussion occurred at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Style War proposed solution about a solution to the ongoing style wars on Wikipedia. The consensus favoured replacing styles at the start of articles by an infobox on styles in the article itself. I have added in the relevant infobox here. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The article states as fact that Pius X left instructions not to be embalmed, and yet his body many years later was not "corrupted" by decay. Has it ever been proven that his body was not, in fact, embalmed? Or are we taking this "on faith", as it were? -- Spudtater 12:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
No. Popes are listed on Wikipedia as popes, not saints, blesseds, servants of god, etc. We use the contemporaneous papal name, not a later variation. In addition, while there is universal agreement that he was a pope, there is not universal agreement outside the Catholic Church that he is a saint. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
In accepting the Papacy, Sarto took as his Papal name Pius X, out of respect for his recent predecessors of the same name, particularly Pope Pius IX (1846–78), who had resisted persecution and fought against theological errors.
A bit of a slant here- everyone is against "errors," but Piux IX was not proofreader-in-chief who said "oh, you meant Elisha here where Elijah actually did that part." The theological errors being referred to are almost certainly heresies of the time, and should be referred to more specifically as the actual doctrines suggested (or, at least, as "errors as considered by Piux X / The Catholic Church"). Persecution is also a bit of a strong word that usually implies the weak being oppressed by the strong, such as the Roman Empire's persecution of the Christians. While Pius IX was chased out of Rome in exile, he was a political leader in a state being toppled, and was the guy with an army who normally got to rule others. It's kind of an expected hazard of the job- I wouldn't say that Louis XVI was persecuted, for instance. You reap what you sow.
I've tenatively rewritten this to be fighting against theological liberals (a bit of a wide net, feel free rewrite as more specific) and for papal supremacy (what with The First Vatican Council and all).
As it was in 1944, Pius X's body was not "corrupted" by decay, a condition that remains true even to this day.
Does anyone have a good, unbiased source on this? If this is true, then frankly this is something that should be inspiring vast scientific interest into how that possibly could have happened. I Googled some and I couldn't even find much in the way of either believing sources nor skeptical sites. SnowFire 21:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Some brief research shows that stories were still being written about Pius X well into the 1930s, 20 years after his death. The New York Times has stories about commemorations of the popes death in 1924 and 1934. Neither of these stories mentions his body being uncorrupted, even though his body was frequently viewed. Tocath 06:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
A bit more extensive research, again from the Times, which ran a story on Pius' "reburial" on June 27 1944. The entire story is three paragraphs. There is some mention of American Soldiers in Italy viewing the body, and a bit of detail about what the body was clothed in ("clad in gorgeous red, white and gold... the gift of Pope Pius XII"). There is no indication whatsoever of his physical appearance. I would imagine that a body uncorrupted for 30 years would incite some serious curiosity, and would certainly be newsworthy. Tocath 06:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user clumsily added this in. A quick Google shows that this theory is on extremely shaky grounds (people have investigated it and found no confirming records at the Polish church he was alleged to have come from), and, more to the point, it's kind of irrelevant. This is worthy of, at most, a subsection in the currently non-existent Giovanni Battista Sarto article. SnowFire 19:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Diligens, I reverted your changes. Here's why.
Do you deny that the papacy was controversial? Saying that there's a controversy is perfectly NPOV, taking (unsourced) sides is usually not.
Again, do you deny that Pius X was a theological conservative? This is not POV, this is an accurate adjective of his policies. "Conservative" is hardly pejorative.
I don't know anything at all about this issue, but I trust the good faith of previous Wikipedia editors who added this information. Again, I hardly see any argument as to how this could possibly be POV; at most, I can see a request for sources via a fact tag.
Although speaking of the fact tag, why'd you stick it on a comment that, by contrast, is grounded rock-solid in history texts? Did you read further down, where Pius X rebukes the French government? I mean, sure, more sources would definitely be good for this article. If you want to go dig up some references, that'd be great. But the fact tag is usually used for "fishy" statements that may be true but require some backup now, not general "it'd be nice to have" statements. (Again, unless you think that this wasn't Pius X's policy?)
Sigh. Anti-Modernism is a perfectly serviceable header that succinctly states that Pius X was against it. "Condemnation of the heresy of Modernism" is flagrantly POV that implies that the Modernists were the bad guys. "Heretics" is a charged word and must be used with care; "The Pope considers Group X heretics" might be fine, but having the Voice of The Encyclopedia call them heretics should only be done when there's utter agreement. By way of example, check out the Albigensian Crusade article and discussion; they are very reluctant to use the heretic word there, despite the Cathars being far nuttier than the Modernists. Or heck, check out your random cults or fringe groups in any religion; pages on the Sufis or Jehova's Witnesses don't go into calling them heretics. SnowFire 18:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Continued down here.
I was using that as an example of something actually NPOV, not saying that you had inserted that (since all you did was delete!). For instance, if you saw the statement "Pius X was a horrible pope who senselessly attacked the heroic Modernists," then by all means delete it.
If this guess is wrong, my apologies, but I assume that you are a "conservative" Catholic (since you claim that there is no other type)? I ask you as a Christian to another Christian to not let your own beliefs get in the way of a neutral article. Look at, say, the Scientology or Mormonism articles and edit histories for scary glimpses at believers trying to rewrite history so as to fit religious dogma that doesn't actually have any backing in history. Pius X can stand on his own just fine; let people judge him as he was. There is no moral judgment in factually stating that many people disagree with his policies. It is up to each person to decide what kind of Pope he was. SnowFire 21:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that you and I have covered the length of objections, I want to focus on a point at a time so things don't get so lengthy.
"Modern" means roughly the 20th century in context. I think that's pretty clear.
Okay, fine. Now let me proceed slowly. Without yet commenting on the terms "conservative" or "controversial" allow me to quote two sentences from the article that I excised and substitute what you conceded can change:
"Despite this, the pontificate of Pius X was one of the more controversial [of the papacies of the 20th century]."
"The pontificate of Pius X was noted for its conservative agenda and as one of the most controversial [of the papacies of the 20th century]"
I emphasized in bold what is showing this to be rather unreasonable. It reminds me of the joke where someone says, "I graduated in the top 10 of my high school class", only to find out there were only 15 people in the class! We have basically only 7 pontificates in the 20th century and Pius X was "one of the more" or "most" of the controversial?? How many of the other 6 were part of this "one of"? And who said so? You must realize this is already a judgement with no reliable source to back it. Who would have spent time weighing all statistics of numerical figures of publications to determine more or most between 7 pontificates? It is sufficient to describe the individual and notable occurrences and leave the judgment to readers if they wish to judge. As for "controversial", any person in a central position of authority will have a slew of objections from those he deals with. That is expected, not something notable. For this pope it is merely sufficient to say that modernists who insisted on remaining in their error objected. But even then the number of objectors cannot be determined because it is historically known that St. Pius X's move against that error was successful, and made the modernists at least go underground. That cannot be determined. If his move against modernism were notably "controversial" it would have been more so reflected in Pius XII's canonization of this pope. Why? Not only because canonization basically makes it officially that his condemnation was divinely approved of, but for the fact that modernists were very thick in the 1950's and yet there was no major reaction from them that reflected any notable controversy. Just tell the facts, the judgement is not for us to make unless you want to find a reliable source that statistically backs it. Although there is a difference in saying the man, or his pontificate, were controversial, I don't think it necessary to go into it. (I will get into the "conservative" issue next). -- Diligens 13:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The term conservative doesn't work. Since we are supposed to have verified and reliable sources for things, where is it in this case? I see nothing. And as a matter of fact, such terminology as someone being described as overall a "conservative" or a "liberal" came mainly about in the 20th century in regard to secular politics. This is not terminology used for the papacy. It simply isn't. It can be found now and then as a mere adjective in respect to a confined aspect, such as being conservative in a particular sphere of work. But since the latter half of the 20th century, the term has all but lost its original denotation and can barely be used with that connotation without invariably making the description seem political. Even the word "liberal" used to be used in Catholicism when someone was very merciful or magnanimous, but now it has an immediate political and negative meaning, or even heretical since "liberalism" was condemned by the Church in the 19th century. The terms conservative and liberal should not be used unless a situation truly necessitates it. The bottom line is still having reliable sources for what we say. Merely saying what someone does should be sufficient. It is not the same as saying George Bush is "conservative" because it is well-known to be political, and that reliable public sources say so. -- Diligens 17:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
First off, I'll have to get back to you on the passage on Pius IX. My interpretation was that he was originally a liberal AND he was generous; it was not intending to say they were synonyms. That said, I need to refresh myself before getting into that topic more. That said, for the whole general definitions debate in THIS article, the current wording is conservative theology. That leaves little doubt as to the meaning, I think.
Secondly. Again, you have a point that before John XXIII, most Popes would probably be considered conservatives by modern standards. That said, there were degrees. Pius IX early on was not considered terribly conservative. Neither was Leo XIII. However, Pius X- even by the standards of the era- seems to qualify as a 1910 conservative (and obviously a 2006 one!).
Thirdly. While I don't have a source on Pius X handy, I do have a general European history text that tackles Pius IX, and they definitely use "liberal" to describe his policies and changes. As an example:
I'll try and get back to you on a source that talks about Pius X directly, because these references aren't perfect; they are referring to liberal ideas of the period as well, the political meaning you referred to before. (The source, for what it's worth, is "A History of the Modern World" 8th edition, by Palmer & Colton.)
I'm leaving to go to a wedding this weekend, so I'll be out for awhile. That said, let me rephrase this debate: what would you propose to put in its place? I believe that something should be said to describe Pius X's general theological tendencies. Would you keep with anti-Modernism? Is there a better, more precise term we can use here? If there is one, I'm open to it, but if we can't find one, then I think conservative still works. SnowFire 03:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a quick note. The title for this page should read "Pope Saint Pius X" with the search term "Pope Pius X" redirecting to this page. I am unsure how to do this, if someone could do this for me, I would greatly appreciate it. 219.90.162.138 ( talk) 02:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I took the word "supposedly" out of the miracles section. While I agree that Wikipedia needs to be NPOV on miracles which includes a certain skepticism, the boy was not "supposedly" cured. Surely he was actually cured. The skepticism is whether it was miraculous or normal. Surely no one would suggest that this sourced account is a lie, i.e. that the boy died or continued to be ill for a long time and the parent pretended that there had been a cure. Also, "supposedly" is, for me, one of the worse words to use for simple skepticism. Perhaps we should simply assert the undeniable facts, such as that the parents attributed the recovery of their child. Perhaps there is no need to add a lot of skeptical words because by putting it in a section on miracles that is already accomplished. 71.39.202.111 ( talk) 14:17, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
The claim that Pope Pius X's father Giovanni Sarto was actually Polish, born "Jan Krawiec," is erroneous. Records show that Pius X's father was Italian-born, being the son of Giuseppe Sarto and Paola Giacomello, who were married in 1784. All of these records are housed in the archives of the parish church of Riese. Resources on Pius X's Italian genealogy are the following: Franceschetti, Francesco, "Gli antenati del Sommo Pontefice Pio X. Memorie storico-genealogiche", Collegio Araldico, Rome, 1903; Marchesan, Angelo, "Papa Pio X nella sua vita e nella sua parola", Benziger and Co., Einsiedeln, 1904; Gheno, Antonio, "La patria di Pio X", in "Rivista del Collegio Araldico" 1st vol. # 11-12, Rome, 1903. 24.59.38.194 ( talk) 08:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. We are all so well responsible in correcting these little details. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8B58:B240:991B:12E7:AEDA:AFAD ( talk) 05:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Don't think so. From the look of that kid, he was maybe 10 or 12, for sure under 15, which would mean it was taken before 1850. The technology was not that good, as can be seen from other photos from the period and later. Plus that kid has the wrong hairstyle, the wrong clothing, and the wrong ears. So that's pretty much for sure some other kid, maybe one born in 1935.
98.118.20.206 (
talk) 20:27, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
The text block "Spiritually we all are her children" purports to be a quotation from Ad diem illum laetissimum. It is not an actual quotation as it stands but rather several sentences and paraphrases strung together, in one case even by the phrase "This, the Pope argues..." Echevalier ( talk) 19:53, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
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I do not know why such a long introduction before article. These long philosophy or critic about pope’s teaching should be added at the end of this article, under the title “Legacy”, which is missing in the article. For the introduction one sentence would be sufficient, as for other popes is example. Let you see Italian, German, or French or other Wikipedia! Stebunik ( talk) 10:42, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
On Wikipedia we have one article in Italian with title: Federico Maria Zinelli [1] Very turbulent and dangerous circumstances were in his time, when he begun his service. [2] He wrote some books too, ex.gr.: Analitico e Sintetico. Discorso dell'abate Federico Maria Zinelli, Venezia, Tipografia Picotti, 1832 [3] Stebunik ( talk) 20:24, 28 December 2017 (UTC)).
In article we read:
New bishop was not nominated in 1879, but in 1880. I ask: How could be Sarto vicar-capitular from December 1879 to June 1880, if already 27 February 1880 was nominated bishop od Treviso Giuseppe Callegari, and consecrated 11 March 1880? [4] When is nominated new bishop, is not necessary vicar-capitular. Stebunik ( talk) 21:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
In his earlier career as a bishop, he had had women removed from the church choirs under his control. Soon after becoming Pope Pius X, his Motu Proprio De Musica Sacra ( Tra de Sollecitudini) issued on St Cecilia's Day 1903 said that the high voices in church music should be performed by boys: which led to the removal of the remaining Castrati from the choir of the Sistine Chapel. NRPanikker ( talk) 02:33, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Taram ( talk) 06:55, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I have not quoted the sources here, as they are already on Wikipedia in the articles Tra le sollecitudini, Castrato and Sistine Chapel Choir. NRPanikker ( talk) 14:02, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Contrary to what is said in the article, the body of Pius X was not well preserved. As he had not been embalmed (for reasons of humility) and had died in the heat of August, the body was already inflated and began to decay when it was still lying in state. WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGES Cfr. https://www.cesnur.org/2009/tesi_papi_foto.htm . Sorry about that. -- Sylvain Leblanc ( talk) 13:29, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
The only reference I can find of this supposed event are a couple of old newspaper articles. Why isn't there any official reference of this? It seems more like a rumor meant to cause amusement and arouse anti-catholic sentiment in America. 2601:647:C900:B6C0:A9E3:80B6:FB5A:88D8 ( talk) 06:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
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I find no support anywhere for Pius X having relaxed fasting rules (Pius XII did so on two occasions during his papacy). In Sacra Tridentia (December 20, 1905) Pius X encourages daily reception of Holy Communion. In Quam Singulari (August 8, 1910), Pius X reduces the age for First Communion and First Reconciliation to "the age of reason or discretion" which is "about the seventh year". This is all I have been able to find in support of the items in the article - i.e., none having to do with fasting. I have ordered Lortz' book as referenced in the article to check the reference myself; however, I am going to delete the fasting portion for now as well as reworking. I will return it if I find support in Lortz or if someone can provide a reference with more detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.152.41 ( talk) 04:08, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Edited the talk about being Polish due to the fact that there is no factual evidence. Anyone can claim that anyone was from anywhere and migrated to anywhere for a "better life". I doubt moving to Italy at that time would be a "better life". My ancestors were fleeing Italy back then "for a better life" to the U.S. The fact that the rumor claimed a Polish/German town automatically made his father Polish is weak.
You say his father was from where? Back there it was part of Germany, Boguschütz, not Poland, so how can you claim someone was "Polish" for borders that did not exist back then? This is clearly garbage and I suggest taking it out. Sure, not only Germans lived in Boguschütz, but if one is from there, doesn't make them automatically Polish. This claim needs to be taken out. Boguschütz was in Schlesien, and not everyone from Schlesien was Polish back then.
Pius X was Patriarch of Venice, and succeeded because of the intervention of the Bishop of Krakow.
In 1978, the Bishop of Krakow succeeded the former Patriarch of Venice as Pope.
I cannot see his successor in Pope Pius X's panel. I've tried to modify it without succeed. Suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.104.164.29 ( talk) 12:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Strongly suspect that the picture you recently have included of Pius X is, in fact, of Pius IX. Can't be certain, however.
The picture is indeed, Pius X.-- Carsjme ( talk) 09:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello everyone I've had a little piece of information to this article and in the same time I would like to create a link to what I've add, the word is Salzano Thank you very much indeed
A discussion occurred at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Style War proposed solution about a solution to the ongoing style wars on Wikipedia. The consensus favoured replacing styles at the start of articles by an infobox on styles in the article itself. I have added in the relevant infobox here. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The article states as fact that Pius X left instructions not to be embalmed, and yet his body many years later was not "corrupted" by decay. Has it ever been proven that his body was not, in fact, embalmed? Or are we taking this "on faith", as it were? -- Spudtater 12:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
No. Popes are listed on Wikipedia as popes, not saints, blesseds, servants of god, etc. We use the contemporaneous papal name, not a later variation. In addition, while there is universal agreement that he was a pope, there is not universal agreement outside the Catholic Church that he is a saint. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
In accepting the Papacy, Sarto took as his Papal name Pius X, out of respect for his recent predecessors of the same name, particularly Pope Pius IX (1846–78), who had resisted persecution and fought against theological errors.
A bit of a slant here- everyone is against "errors," but Piux IX was not proofreader-in-chief who said "oh, you meant Elisha here where Elijah actually did that part." The theological errors being referred to are almost certainly heresies of the time, and should be referred to more specifically as the actual doctrines suggested (or, at least, as "errors as considered by Piux X / The Catholic Church"). Persecution is also a bit of a strong word that usually implies the weak being oppressed by the strong, such as the Roman Empire's persecution of the Christians. While Pius IX was chased out of Rome in exile, he was a political leader in a state being toppled, and was the guy with an army who normally got to rule others. It's kind of an expected hazard of the job- I wouldn't say that Louis XVI was persecuted, for instance. You reap what you sow.
I've tenatively rewritten this to be fighting against theological liberals (a bit of a wide net, feel free rewrite as more specific) and for papal supremacy (what with The First Vatican Council and all).
As it was in 1944, Pius X's body was not "corrupted" by decay, a condition that remains true even to this day.
Does anyone have a good, unbiased source on this? If this is true, then frankly this is something that should be inspiring vast scientific interest into how that possibly could have happened. I Googled some and I couldn't even find much in the way of either believing sources nor skeptical sites. SnowFire 21:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Some brief research shows that stories were still being written about Pius X well into the 1930s, 20 years after his death. The New York Times has stories about commemorations of the popes death in 1924 and 1934. Neither of these stories mentions his body being uncorrupted, even though his body was frequently viewed. Tocath 06:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
A bit more extensive research, again from the Times, which ran a story on Pius' "reburial" on June 27 1944. The entire story is three paragraphs. There is some mention of American Soldiers in Italy viewing the body, and a bit of detail about what the body was clothed in ("clad in gorgeous red, white and gold... the gift of Pope Pius XII"). There is no indication whatsoever of his physical appearance. I would imagine that a body uncorrupted for 30 years would incite some serious curiosity, and would certainly be newsworthy. Tocath 06:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user clumsily added this in. A quick Google shows that this theory is on extremely shaky grounds (people have investigated it and found no confirming records at the Polish church he was alleged to have come from), and, more to the point, it's kind of irrelevant. This is worthy of, at most, a subsection in the currently non-existent Giovanni Battista Sarto article. SnowFire 19:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Diligens, I reverted your changes. Here's why.
Do you deny that the papacy was controversial? Saying that there's a controversy is perfectly NPOV, taking (unsourced) sides is usually not.
Again, do you deny that Pius X was a theological conservative? This is not POV, this is an accurate adjective of his policies. "Conservative" is hardly pejorative.
I don't know anything at all about this issue, but I trust the good faith of previous Wikipedia editors who added this information. Again, I hardly see any argument as to how this could possibly be POV; at most, I can see a request for sources via a fact tag.
Although speaking of the fact tag, why'd you stick it on a comment that, by contrast, is grounded rock-solid in history texts? Did you read further down, where Pius X rebukes the French government? I mean, sure, more sources would definitely be good for this article. If you want to go dig up some references, that'd be great. But the fact tag is usually used for "fishy" statements that may be true but require some backup now, not general "it'd be nice to have" statements. (Again, unless you think that this wasn't Pius X's policy?)
Sigh. Anti-Modernism is a perfectly serviceable header that succinctly states that Pius X was against it. "Condemnation of the heresy of Modernism" is flagrantly POV that implies that the Modernists were the bad guys. "Heretics" is a charged word and must be used with care; "The Pope considers Group X heretics" might be fine, but having the Voice of The Encyclopedia call them heretics should only be done when there's utter agreement. By way of example, check out the Albigensian Crusade article and discussion; they are very reluctant to use the heretic word there, despite the Cathars being far nuttier than the Modernists. Or heck, check out your random cults or fringe groups in any religion; pages on the Sufis or Jehova's Witnesses don't go into calling them heretics. SnowFire 18:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Continued down here.
I was using that as an example of something actually NPOV, not saying that you had inserted that (since all you did was delete!). For instance, if you saw the statement "Pius X was a horrible pope who senselessly attacked the heroic Modernists," then by all means delete it.
If this guess is wrong, my apologies, but I assume that you are a "conservative" Catholic (since you claim that there is no other type)? I ask you as a Christian to another Christian to not let your own beliefs get in the way of a neutral article. Look at, say, the Scientology or Mormonism articles and edit histories for scary glimpses at believers trying to rewrite history so as to fit religious dogma that doesn't actually have any backing in history. Pius X can stand on his own just fine; let people judge him as he was. There is no moral judgment in factually stating that many people disagree with his policies. It is up to each person to decide what kind of Pope he was. SnowFire 21:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that you and I have covered the length of objections, I want to focus on a point at a time so things don't get so lengthy.
"Modern" means roughly the 20th century in context. I think that's pretty clear.
Okay, fine. Now let me proceed slowly. Without yet commenting on the terms "conservative" or "controversial" allow me to quote two sentences from the article that I excised and substitute what you conceded can change:
"Despite this, the pontificate of Pius X was one of the more controversial [of the papacies of the 20th century]."
"The pontificate of Pius X was noted for its conservative agenda and as one of the most controversial [of the papacies of the 20th century]"
I emphasized in bold what is showing this to be rather unreasonable. It reminds me of the joke where someone says, "I graduated in the top 10 of my high school class", only to find out there were only 15 people in the class! We have basically only 7 pontificates in the 20th century and Pius X was "one of the more" or "most" of the controversial?? How many of the other 6 were part of this "one of"? And who said so? You must realize this is already a judgement with no reliable source to back it. Who would have spent time weighing all statistics of numerical figures of publications to determine more or most between 7 pontificates? It is sufficient to describe the individual and notable occurrences and leave the judgment to readers if they wish to judge. As for "controversial", any person in a central position of authority will have a slew of objections from those he deals with. That is expected, not something notable. For this pope it is merely sufficient to say that modernists who insisted on remaining in their error objected. But even then the number of objectors cannot be determined because it is historically known that St. Pius X's move against that error was successful, and made the modernists at least go underground. That cannot be determined. If his move against modernism were notably "controversial" it would have been more so reflected in Pius XII's canonization of this pope. Why? Not only because canonization basically makes it officially that his condemnation was divinely approved of, but for the fact that modernists were very thick in the 1950's and yet there was no major reaction from them that reflected any notable controversy. Just tell the facts, the judgement is not for us to make unless you want to find a reliable source that statistically backs it. Although there is a difference in saying the man, or his pontificate, were controversial, I don't think it necessary to go into it. (I will get into the "conservative" issue next). -- Diligens 13:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The term conservative doesn't work. Since we are supposed to have verified and reliable sources for things, where is it in this case? I see nothing. And as a matter of fact, such terminology as someone being described as overall a "conservative" or a "liberal" came mainly about in the 20th century in regard to secular politics. This is not terminology used for the papacy. It simply isn't. It can be found now and then as a mere adjective in respect to a confined aspect, such as being conservative in a particular sphere of work. But since the latter half of the 20th century, the term has all but lost its original denotation and can barely be used with that connotation without invariably making the description seem political. Even the word "liberal" used to be used in Catholicism when someone was very merciful or magnanimous, but now it has an immediate political and negative meaning, or even heretical since "liberalism" was condemned by the Church in the 19th century. The terms conservative and liberal should not be used unless a situation truly necessitates it. The bottom line is still having reliable sources for what we say. Merely saying what someone does should be sufficient. It is not the same as saying George Bush is "conservative" because it is well-known to be political, and that reliable public sources say so. -- Diligens 17:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
First off, I'll have to get back to you on the passage on Pius IX. My interpretation was that he was originally a liberal AND he was generous; it was not intending to say they were synonyms. That said, I need to refresh myself before getting into that topic more. That said, for the whole general definitions debate in THIS article, the current wording is conservative theology. That leaves little doubt as to the meaning, I think.
Secondly. Again, you have a point that before John XXIII, most Popes would probably be considered conservatives by modern standards. That said, there were degrees. Pius IX early on was not considered terribly conservative. Neither was Leo XIII. However, Pius X- even by the standards of the era- seems to qualify as a 1910 conservative (and obviously a 2006 one!).
Thirdly. While I don't have a source on Pius X handy, I do have a general European history text that tackles Pius IX, and they definitely use "liberal" to describe his policies and changes. As an example:
I'll try and get back to you on a source that talks about Pius X directly, because these references aren't perfect; they are referring to liberal ideas of the period as well, the political meaning you referred to before. (The source, for what it's worth, is "A History of the Modern World" 8th edition, by Palmer & Colton.)
I'm leaving to go to a wedding this weekend, so I'll be out for awhile. That said, let me rephrase this debate: what would you propose to put in its place? I believe that something should be said to describe Pius X's general theological tendencies. Would you keep with anti-Modernism? Is there a better, more precise term we can use here? If there is one, I'm open to it, but if we can't find one, then I think conservative still works. SnowFire 03:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a quick note. The title for this page should read "Pope Saint Pius X" with the search term "Pope Pius X" redirecting to this page. I am unsure how to do this, if someone could do this for me, I would greatly appreciate it. 219.90.162.138 ( talk) 02:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I took the word "supposedly" out of the miracles section. While I agree that Wikipedia needs to be NPOV on miracles which includes a certain skepticism, the boy was not "supposedly" cured. Surely he was actually cured. The skepticism is whether it was miraculous or normal. Surely no one would suggest that this sourced account is a lie, i.e. that the boy died or continued to be ill for a long time and the parent pretended that there had been a cure. Also, "supposedly" is, for me, one of the worse words to use for simple skepticism. Perhaps we should simply assert the undeniable facts, such as that the parents attributed the recovery of their child. Perhaps there is no need to add a lot of skeptical words because by putting it in a section on miracles that is already accomplished. 71.39.202.111 ( talk) 14:17, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
The claim that Pope Pius X's father Giovanni Sarto was actually Polish, born "Jan Krawiec," is erroneous. Records show that Pius X's father was Italian-born, being the son of Giuseppe Sarto and Paola Giacomello, who were married in 1784. All of these records are housed in the archives of the parish church of Riese. Resources on Pius X's Italian genealogy are the following: Franceschetti, Francesco, "Gli antenati del Sommo Pontefice Pio X. Memorie storico-genealogiche", Collegio Araldico, Rome, 1903; Marchesan, Angelo, "Papa Pio X nella sua vita e nella sua parola", Benziger and Co., Einsiedeln, 1904; Gheno, Antonio, "La patria di Pio X", in "Rivista del Collegio Araldico" 1st vol. # 11-12, Rome, 1903. 24.59.38.194 ( talk) 08:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. We are all so well responsible in correcting these little details. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8B58:B240:991B:12E7:AEDA:AFAD ( talk) 05:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Don't think so. From the look of that kid, he was maybe 10 or 12, for sure under 15, which would mean it was taken before 1850. The technology was not that good, as can be seen from other photos from the period and later. Plus that kid has the wrong hairstyle, the wrong clothing, and the wrong ears. So that's pretty much for sure some other kid, maybe one born in 1935.
98.118.20.206 (
talk) 20:27, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
The text block "Spiritually we all are her children" purports to be a quotation from Ad diem illum laetissimum. It is not an actual quotation as it stands but rather several sentences and paraphrases strung together, in one case even by the phrase "This, the Pope argues..." Echevalier ( talk) 19:53, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
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I do not know why such a long introduction before article. These long philosophy or critic about pope’s teaching should be added at the end of this article, under the title “Legacy”, which is missing in the article. For the introduction one sentence would be sufficient, as for other popes is example. Let you see Italian, German, or French or other Wikipedia! Stebunik ( talk) 10:42, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
On Wikipedia we have one article in Italian with title: Federico Maria Zinelli [1] Very turbulent and dangerous circumstances were in his time, when he begun his service. [2] He wrote some books too, ex.gr.: Analitico e Sintetico. Discorso dell'abate Federico Maria Zinelli, Venezia, Tipografia Picotti, 1832 [3] Stebunik ( talk) 20:24, 28 December 2017 (UTC)).
In article we read:
New bishop was not nominated in 1879, but in 1880. I ask: How could be Sarto vicar-capitular from December 1879 to June 1880, if already 27 February 1880 was nominated bishop od Treviso Giuseppe Callegari, and consecrated 11 March 1880? [4] When is nominated new bishop, is not necessary vicar-capitular. Stebunik ( talk) 21:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
In his earlier career as a bishop, he had had women removed from the church choirs under his control. Soon after becoming Pope Pius X, his Motu Proprio De Musica Sacra ( Tra de Sollecitudini) issued on St Cecilia's Day 1903 said that the high voices in church music should be performed by boys: which led to the removal of the remaining Castrati from the choir of the Sistine Chapel. NRPanikker ( talk) 02:33, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Taram ( talk) 06:55, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I have not quoted the sources here, as they are already on Wikipedia in the articles Tra le sollecitudini, Castrato and Sistine Chapel Choir. NRPanikker ( talk) 14:02, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Contrary to what is said in the article, the body of Pius X was not well preserved. As he had not been embalmed (for reasons of humility) and had died in the heat of August, the body was already inflated and began to decay when it was still lying in state. WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGES Cfr. https://www.cesnur.org/2009/tesi_papi_foto.htm . Sorry about that. -- Sylvain Leblanc ( talk) 13:29, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
The only reference I can find of this supposed event are a couple of old newspaper articles. Why isn't there any official reference of this? It seems more like a rumor meant to cause amusement and arouse anti-catholic sentiment in America. 2601:647:C900:B6C0:A9E3:80B6:FB5A:88D8 ( talk) 06:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)