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This archive covers the last hours of April 21, 2005, and most of April 22.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratsche talk random 21:09, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
There's some debate in France about Ratzinger belonging to to Hitler's Youth at the age of 14. Ericd 13:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) OOooops, I've found a reference in the article. Ericd 13:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is some debate going on about whether to use the active or passive voice in describing the Pope's membership in the Hitler Youth. Some clearly are taking the view that he actively joined (albeit recognizing the mandatory nature of membership at the time). I've read articles stating specifically that the school he was studying in began automatically enrolling its students in the Hitler Youth 2 years before the Pope was a member at age 14. (See NYT) Can we come to some compromise on the wording. I think both sides are trying to avoid the potential POV connotations the other's phrasing could have. - J
The article from the NYT states that the school enrolled its students. This article ( http://kyw.com/pope/pope_story_113150419.html), referring to the Pope's autobiography, isn't definitive but concludes that the Pope seems to indicate the same thing. My problem, Lulu, is that it started out with the "was enrolled" phrase, which is used by the other half of articles versus the "joined" phrase. Then it was changed to "joined" to expressly make it active, when it isn't clear that he did the enrolling, although I think it is clear that he was aware of it. Your mention of not choosing to face thos negative consequences (although maybe meant to be "factual") can easily read as a POV/judgment on whether his form of resistance to the Nazis was "heroic" enough of "acceptable". I can leave with either of your compromises. - J
From article:
This statement is rather surprising, because frankly, many European conservatives are against the death penalty and preemptive war, want (allegedly, but that is what they say) social justice, and are, although probably to a lesser extent, opposed to the excesses of capitalism and consumerism. So this either needs a thorough re-working, or (that was probably meant) an addition of "US" somewhere. -- AlexR 16:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As Popes go he is a traditionalist, not conservative. Rangeley 17:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please, don't use "traditionalist" because of the anti-council implication (see earlier discussion), but to describe his views or stances as "traditional" is ok. I was responsible for the wording criticized, though I only rearranged it. I guess there is some US reference in there, but still even if European conservatives are somewhat different, the distinction between Benedict's stance should in neither case be equated with political conservatism. Str1977 17:44, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All right, I have worded it in a way, that cautions against equating Church's and Pope's stance with political conservatism in general (I think that's valid in every nation), but gave the too American examples as what they are, examples. Str1977 13:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It might seem odd but I wanted to let the Wiki contributors to the B16 entry that it is a fascinating read. Mowens35 17:30, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Could not find something about this in the guidelines; I see that References 4 and 6 are the same (to the same reprint in IHT of the same NYT article). Should these references be consolidated into one? 84.136.56.88 20:32, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
" National Socialist mathematics professor " Was the professor actually a Nazi, or merely a German required to join the party? I think the distinction is important. Mackensen (talk) 20:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The description of the professor as a nazi goes back to Benedict's own report. He said something like: "my maths professor, although himself a Nazi ..." Str1977 08:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"However, the use of condoms is permitted by the Church if one marital partner has HIV/AIDS."
Can anyone show me any sources for that? DKK
Can't we use a different one in that box with all his details? His eyes look terrible, his appearance is awful, there must surely be some more appropriate pictures of him taken soon after he became Pope.
Yeah, we will change it, when they release the official picture tomorrow. Rangeley 22:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No official one yet, however this one is much better then that old one File:Pope050424 cp 7511577.jpg Rangeley 19:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just found this on the commons. It is how Caridnal Ratzinger's name is pronounced in German (created by User:APPER). [2]. Zscout370 00:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the following line near the bottom of the page:
"He has also rejected the idea that divorced people can remarry and said they have no right to receive communion."
The way the above line is stated could make it sound like Ratzinger was saying divorced people should be barred from the Eucharist even if they don't remarry. As far as I am aware, divorced Catholics who don't remarry are NOT barred from the Sacraments, so I'd like to see a cite on Ratzinger's actual words, and have the above sentence edited for clarity if need be.
Thanks... WhFastus 02:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed in a lot of the article, it still refers to him as Ratzinger, when it should clearly be Benedict XVI. If you were to look in any other Pope's article, It was always John Paul II not Karol (except when describing his birth), And always John Paul I and not Albino. Why should it be any different for this pope? Rangeley 04:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Every pope should be described by their own name for things they did before they became pope. Cardinal Pacelli, not Pius XII, signed the Concordat with Germany in 1933. Cardinal della Rovere, not Julius II, led the opposition to Alexander VI. And so on. Benedict XVI is bound to have a lot of stuff referring to him as Ratzinger, because he did a lot of stuff while he was Ratzinger. He's the most previously well-known pope since Pius XII, by far, and before Pius XII I can't come up with one who was equivalently important. BTW, the proper parallels to "Ratzinger" would be Wojtyla and Luciani, not Karol and Albino. john k 04:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Looking at the article, though, it appears that there were many instances where he should be called Benedict when he is still called Ratzinger. I'm going through and changing them. john k 04:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is a long-standing tradition in papal history, though, of referring to popes by both their papal name and their original surname, particularly if their original surname is considered significant (either because they were well-known under it before they were created pope, or because they came from an important family). It is common with the Renaissance popes, who mostly came from noble families, so you will see them referred to, e.g., as "Leo X Medici" or "Pius II Piccolomini"; this was the practice of the popes themselve, as demonstrated most famously by the facade of St. Peter's, where the words over the door are "Paul V Borghese" (in Latin, of course). Someone as well-known as Gregory VII Hildebrand (who was very famous before his accession) is frequently referred to in history books simply as "Hildebrand", even with reference to things he did after he became pope. So in light of this, to refer to him as Benedict XVI Ratzinger, or even simply as "Ratzinger", is not unheard of. The use of the original surname is much more common, I think, in Europe than in North America - I have often heard Romans refer to John Paul II as "Pope Wojtyla".
Can we please get it straight? The occupation necessary is the occupation she had at the time of Ratzinger's birth. It seems improbable, not not impossible, that she worked for the German branch of Coca Cola at the time of his birth, but Wiki still requires a citation for this information. Most profiles of Benedict that I've accessed via Nexis-Lexis indicate that Maria Ratzinger (née Riger) was (a) a barmaid or (b) a cook. Again, this is at the time of his birth. If she worked for Coca Cola later in life, that information should be included. But it is important for someone to determine what her occupation was in 1927. Mowens35 10:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK, folks. The
Palpatine picture is amusing, but inappropriate. I'm taking it down. Looks like somebody beat me to it.
Popefelix 14:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
http://news.google.com/news?q=ingrid+stampa
New to the Wiki, so I didn't really want to make any changes on my own. I did, however, feel the need to at least point out that this paragraph:
The position is not arbitrary nor moralistic, but possesses a rigorous philosophical basis (See Karol Wojtyla's Love and Responsibility). It seems that considerable weight can be given to this position, as abstinence promoted in the country of Uganda has reduced an AIDS population of 29% to roughly 6%, as opposed to other countries where condoms are promoted and the infection levels have either remained stable or increased.
Is not correct. This Feb. 24, 2005 article from the Washington Post reports quite the opposite:
Abstinence and sexual fidelity have played virtually no role in the much-heralded decline of AIDS rates in the most closely studied region of Uganda, two researchers told a gathering of AIDS scientists here.
It is the deaths of previously infected people, not dramatic change in human behavior, that is the main engine behind the ebbing of the overall rate, or prevalence, of AIDS in southern Uganda over the last decade, they reported. ...
Wawer's findings come from a study of 10,000 people ages 15 to 49 who live in 44 villages near Uganda's border with Tanzania. Each year researchers have gone door to door collecting blood and urine samples and asking about health and behavior. About 85 percent of residents cooperate with the study, which over the years has grown to include AIDS treatment and prevention services as well as research. ...
Condom use, however, changed markedly over the survey period. In 1994, only about 10 percent of the men said they consistently used condoms with non-marital partners, compared with 50 percent in 2003. For women of the same age, the rate of condom use in non-marital sex increased from 2 percent to 28 percent.
I believe that this paragraph in the article should be removed, as I believe it is unrelated to the facts, attempts to add opinion (The position is not arbitrary nor moralistic) that is not supported, and is generally inaccurate.
However, I don't want to just hack away at someone else's work, and others may have a different perspective.
The claims cited in the washington post article are false, as well. There is a response that was published as one of the letters in followups to the article, stating that the study was carried out in the Rakai district, I believe, which only accounted for 2% of the population and was not representative of the population of Uganda. It can be argued that as it was left in its current format, the statement was quite opinionated as well, and decidedly pro-condom.
I think the pronouncation link is outdated (he is surely not Cardinal Ratzinger anymore). Should it be removed (and replaced with just Joseph Ratzinger, like Pope John Paul II article's Karol Wojtila)?
The current image look terrible. Couldn't we find some nice images?
Update: I sent an email to the Vatican Press Office, asking when PD photos of B16 will be released. I am waiting for a reply in the next few days. Zscout370 20:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why are many of the sections repeated? I've removed the major repetition at the beginning, but there are still sentences repeated here and there.
"Though the style His Holiness is used by Catholics and some other people, it is offensive to followers of some other religions."
This note is really ridiculous. It should be removed.
The dispute which continues to arise over the use of the style His Holiness has been discussed at length already, and is current Wikipedia policy. Some people think that the style is NPOV, others consider it controversial, but until and unless the policy is changed, it stands as is. With that having been said, I have proposed a survey that Wikipedians may wish to discuss regarding a change to the standing policy, so that the style might be included contextually within the article rather than at the outset. If you wish to participate in this ongoing discussion, please join the conversation at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Proposed Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles in Biographies. Whig 19:26, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some discussants and article editors have claimed that the style "His Holiness" is "Wikipedia style policy." But it was only added as style policy in the last couple days, and specifically by the same users who keep adding the style back in this article.
The truth, quite simply, is that the honorific is a Catholic POV, is offensive to some/many readers, and is at odds with the usage in all other encyclopedias, news sources, etc. The point of this article should not be "Vatican press release", but rather a NEUTRAL article.
However, I would not object to the usage later in the article, if it was accompanied by a contextualizing remark about the range of its usage. Much as the similar honorific was used for the Dalai Lama before some of the same involved people changed the Dalai Lama article to conform with their newfound "policy." Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
First, it is not true that this has been wikipedia style policy for only a few days. It has been policy for at least several months. Secondly, the idea that this is a "Catholic POV" is absurd. Non-Catholics also refer to the pope as "His Holiness," and this style has nothing to do with whether or not the pope is holy. It is simply a style attaching to the pope. Is it a "Catholic POV" to refer to the Archbishop of Westminster, since Anglicans believe that this area is under the jurisdiction of the Anglican Bishop of London? john k 03:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Today, the Duke of Edinburgh, the husband of the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, was clearly heard calling Ben "Your Holiness". The (Anglican) Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, called the Pope "His Holiness" on the BBC. And the non-Catholic King Carl XVI Gustav was also heard calling the Pope "Your Holiness", as did George W. Bush when he met John Paul II, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome when he welcomed JPII to his church, and the (Jewish) President of Israel when he welcomed JPII to his country. So how then is it Catholic POV for wikipedia to use a form of address used by the Duke of Edinburgh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the King of Sweden, the President of the United States, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome and the President of Israel? And how exactly are we endorsing it by using it? Or were all the above endorsing it? Does that mean that the Duke of Edinburgh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the King of Sweden, the President of the United States, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome and the President of Israel are all secret Catholics or something? Pray do explain, Lulu. FearÉIREANN 03:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jtdirl, thank you for those examples on the various people (and religions) who use the term His/Your Holiness. I personally use this term, mainly as a mark of respect for Benedict XVI (along with John Paul II). As for the policy itself, Whig, do you want to copy and paste what the policy states for everyone here to read?
As referrenced earlier, I did an edit to make some people happy with that statement. I made some happy, I know I upset many of you, but I am just trying to see what kind of "happy medium" exists here. I know I sounded harsh, but this is really starting to get me annoyed. Zscout370 11:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing in this article as yet on the new Pope's inauguration that took place today. I think it was quite remarkably because people applauded many times during his sermon. And does anyone know if the Eastern Catholic churches were involved with any inauguration of a previous pope like they were this time? -- Maxl 19:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The inauguration is discussed in the Papal Inauguration article. I honestly think that section ought to be moved here, because the other article should be on Papal Inaugurations in general. =\ -- user:Jenmoa
Good god, no. Don't move it here. This article is too big already and will have to have things taken out, not more put in. FearÉIREANN 03:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We should keep an eye on this page, http://members.tripod.com/romeartlover/cataloga.html to see when the new Papal arms has been designed for the Holy Father. Zscout370 21:18, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to remove the question mark just after the soundbite of the name. I tried, but couldn't get it done. Str1977 22:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
File:Pope050424 cp 7511577.jpg Is this image fully sourced properly? Cantus raised doubts, I clarified sources further, but If we are missing anything else we might as well fix it rather then go back to that terrible picture cantus keeps putting up where he looks half dead. Rangeley 02:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious about how truthful some of the information on AIDS is. There is a comment about abstinence being more effective than condoms, in terms of fightings AIDS. I find this hard to believe - is one pro-church example being used? I know, in Canada, we have sex education programs for children that have consistenly found more liberal sex-ducation more effecient.
Just because it is disputed by some, it is not necessarily false. And it is in the controversy section, where naturally controversial things are stated, but from both sides. Str1977 08:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians!
There are people who vandalise this page. The whole article is being removed and insulting texts (about the Pope and Christians in general) are put on the page instead.
Perhaps the page should be secured from edditing for a while.
Kind regards Allard, Mon 25 April 2005 10:28
p.s. I did restore the old page TWICE!, but for how long it will last?
I don't know if it's (technically) possible or in line with wiki rules, but how about restricting editing to registered users (vs IPs). I know that's not a nice thing to do, but maybe a way to substantially reduce the vandalism (I mean the extreme form), as registered users can be held accountable whereas IPs can't. Just a thought, I'm feeling uneasy about it too. Str1977 08:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I moved the "abuse section" from the "cardinal" section into the "controversial views" section, where it was originally, but someone constantly moves it back to the "cardinal" section. I think it belongs to the "controversial views" section, since a) the paragraphs are discussing a controversy b) it is rather bulky im comparison to the rest of the cardinal section. If we want to put it there, we should be much more elaborate on other issues during his cardinalate. Another thing is the phrase "As prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, such abuses were ultimately his responsibility to investigate ..." Can anyone give evidence fo that. The CDF is concerned with doctrinal issues and though abuse is a sin, it's not heresy. Str1977 09:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The text on Ratzinger's role in relation to the scandal is largely about his behaviour as Prefect. It is not a "view", any more than his being born in Maktl am Inn is a "view". (The Views section is objectionable anyway, as it partially duplicates Theology and is something of a shopping list of things he's said that people have objected to. There must be better ways of putting the details of his theology/views.) Rd232 09:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But the abuse section is too bulky. We now have two or three sentences about this cardinalate in general and then three paragraphs about the abuse, going very much into detail. And maybe the "views" is an unfortunate wording, and yes, it is sort of shopping for objections, but since people have put it in, I'm not the one to remove it. Str1977 09:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And the "other faiths" section is definitely a view. Str1977 10:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I listened to the complete (fifteen-minute) radio interview (April 20 2005) with Cardinal Connell on RTE Radio (I'm Irish.) There was not one word about Cardinal Ratzinger advising him about to handle the the sex abuse case. I also saw Connell's (April 20) RTE Television interview. This lasted a little more than five minutes, and also was entirely silent about sex abuse cases. Both interviews can be found here [4] (scroll to the bottom). For the moment, I'm removing the statement that Connell says his approach to the sex abuse cases was guided by Ratzinger. If anyone wishes to reinsert it, please provide a source that can be verified. He did not say it in an RTE Interview on 20 April. Ann Heneghan 10:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article is so full of hyperlinks I just want to run away screaming when I see it. Do we really need links for every single date mentioned, for example? Birth, yes. Key points of career, sure. Selection and inauguration, absolutely. But the rest?
And same goes for things that should be common knowledge, like " German", " World_War_I" etc. And come on, " family" and " marriage"? You just did that to piss people like me off, admit it. magetoo 11:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems pretty systematic that what many editors are inserting is an explicitly pro-Catholic POV (they may or may not be Catholic themselves, I recognize). There's a common conceit, I think, that the official Vatican position or language on any issue is the same as "neutral." But it's really just the opposite--that's the specific positions of the most interested party (not a disinterested encyclopedia). This comes out in pretty much everything I've tried to restore to NPOV. E.g., trying to get the offensive honorific moved to mention rather than use ( Use-mention_distinction) (it's a fact that people use it, but it is offensive and would not be used by many other people--including me, FWIW, as an athiest).
Likewise with the attempt to falsely insinuate a greater passivity in Ratzinger's wartime activity than is evidenced or plausible. As if he was just as uninvolved volitionally in joining the Hitler Youth as is it were "he was struck by a meteor." If you have a strong POV, niggly language to try to absolve responsibility and involvement makes your case. But it just ain't neutral. Unfortunately, even with a source already judged reputable, the pro-Pope POV editors vandalize accurate, neutral language such as:
Very frustrating! The Vatican already has their own website, why can't Wikipedia be an encyclopedia instead? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:37, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
If you want to address this issue, this is not the place. Prefixed styles of address are current Wikipedia policy. Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Revised proposal for comment if you wish to help us put together a survey on the subject. Whig 18:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I listened to the complete (fifteen-minute) radio interview (April 20 2005) with Cardinal Connell on RTE Radio (I'm Irish.) There was not one word about Cardinal Ratzinger advising him about to handle the the sex abuse case. I also saw Connell's (April 20) RTE Television interview. This lasted a little more than five minutes, and also was entirely silent about sex abuse cases. Both interviews can be found here [8] (scroll to the bottom). For the moment, I'm removing the statement that Connell says his approach to the sex abuse cases was guided by Ratzinger. If anyone wishes to reinsert it, please provide a source that can be verified. He did not say it in an RTE Interview on 20 April. Ann Heneghan 10:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I moved the "abuse section" from the "cardinal" section into the "controversial views" section, where it was originally, but someone constantly moves it back to the "cardinal" section. I think it belongs to the "controversial views" section, since a) the paragraphs are discussing a controversy b) it is rather bulky im comparison to the rest of the cardinal section. If we want to put it there, we should be much more elaborate on other issues during his cardinalate. Another thing is the phrase "As prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, such abuses were ultimately his responsibility to investigate ..." Can anyone give evidence fo that. The CDF is concerned with doctrinal issues and though abuse is a sin, it's not heresy. Str1977 09:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The text on Ratzinger's role in relation to the scandal is largely about his behaviour as Prefect. It is not a "view", any more than his being born in Maktl am Inn is a "view". (The Views section is objectionable anyway, as it partially duplicates Theology and is something of a shopping list of things he's said that people have objected to. There must be better ways of putting the details of his theology/views.) Rd232 09:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But the abuse section is too bulky. We now have two or three sentences about this cardinalate in general and then three paragraphs about the abuse, going very much into detail. And maybe the "views" is an unfortunate wording, and yes, it is sort of shopping for objections, but since people have put it in, I'm not the one to remove it. Str1977 09:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And the "other faiths" section is definitely a view. Str1977 10:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I question why we're quoting the Observer so much in the first paragraph of the Abuse section. All of the quotes seem to be of the Observer's interpretation of the letter. I realize that skill in Ecclesiastical Latin is somewhat rare, but I personally think it would make a lot more sense to cut out the middle-man and quote directly from the primary text, since it is available. Anyone? -- MikeJ9919 01:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Most style-of-address books give "Your/His Holiness" for the Pope, and the then Popes are referred to as His Holines in journals and newspapers of the 18th and 19th century.
Perhaps the discussion on titles should be transferred to the Pope-as-office article (and with references for other popes - Coptic etc) and/ or, as it is likely to recur each time a new Pope is installed.
The sentence in the main text about German Popes having fallen out of favour when Protestantism sprouted in that country, while creating an interesting image needs rewriting slightly.
The footnotes in this article don't work properly. When you click on some of the numbers, they don't take you to that number in the list at the bottom, and vice versa. I'm not sure what needs to be done to make it work. -- John 15:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Could their be a infobox about when the pope will travel to other countries and other places? -- Contrib 17:06, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is Pope Benedict XVI into any kind of music? What language's does he speak? -- Contrib 17:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
People keep adding fake pictures to the article. If someone can think of a solution get back to me. -- Contrib 17:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone think their are to many pictures of Pope Benedict XVI? With all of the vandalism this could be a problem but it's up to you all. -- Contrib 18:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
PD Picture: found one, from Wikimedia Commons: (see above) Zscout370 (talk) 18:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for the duplication posts but it's getting really frequent on the Pope Benedict XVI page. Please take note. -- Contrib 18:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The duplication needs to be sorted out. -- Contrib 18:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What holidays does Pope Benedict XVI celebrate? -- Contrib 18:19, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought we were going to get a new one after he had his mass of inaugaration. It's still the same horrible picture.
The person blanked the page and wrote some vulgar things so I deleted that but the page got blanked. Take note. -- Contrib 18:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I did indeed. Your point being? -- 131.111.8.96 18:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This person who blanked the Pope Benedict XVI article should be banned and is causing vandalism all over wikipedia.-- Contrib 18:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am taking this vandal to the Vandalism in progress page for reporting. Zscout370 18:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism to you, but to me it is the holy truth! -- 131.111.8.96 18:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You should know better but obviously you like being a nuisence so get out of wikipedia and the talk pages. Zscout this person needs to be banned. -- Contrib 18:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The person is question is now blocked. FearÉIREANN 18:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately it is the IP of Cambridge University, which is used by thousands. At least according to its info. Rangeley 23:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking maybe through some sort of divine inspiration John Paul II knew that his Prefect of CDF would be elected Pope after him. Ratzinger twice submitted his resignation but was rejected by JPII, perhaps to keep him in the limelight and thus a more viable candidate. He also chose Cologne, Germany to host the next World Youth Day, a perfect homecoming for his successor.
Perhaps this picture tells it all:
http://www.fshcm.com/prophetic.jpg
Why use the word "Universal Church" in the first paragraph, when referring to the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" (in short the Catcholic Church)? I believe that this organisation does not have churches in other parts of the universe than planer Earth, therefore not being a universal church. -- User:HJV 20:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This page has been under attack all night (well it is night here in Ireland). It seems to have been besieged with vandalism in the last half an hour. I have temporarily protected it to stop this siege. Earlier attempts to drive away vandals by blocking them did not work. Protection was the last option to stop it. Apologies to all serious wikipedians inconvenienced by this, but it had hit a point where protection was the only option. FearÉIREANN 03:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The most recent vandal has been blocked. However as there has been a spate of vandalism here I think it wise to leave this page protected for the moment. I am leaving wikipedia now for the night. If there is agreement among users that it is now safe to unlock this page, contact any administrator and request that they do so. FearÉIREANN 04:24, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
http://www.erzbistum-muenchen.de/archiv/iMA011/iMA01116001.JPG (source: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising website) moded
[21] (Source: Yahoo! Images)
Isn't that the Papal Coat of Arms for Pope Benedict XVI? Obviously, this was taken when he emerged from the balcony after being elected.
However, on the Papal Installation Ceremony, a similar coat of arms appeared on the same place but instead of a navy blue shield, there is a white shield.
When is The Vatican revealing his true coat of arms?
When they have a coat of arms to reveal. The man who did the coats of arms of John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI and John XXIII is now dead. So they are going to have to find a new person to do the design. That person will then have to discuss with the new pope what he wants in the arms (and that new pope is probably rather busy right now). Some research may also be done into Ben's family history to see if there ever was an earlier coat of arms - if there was, it could be used as the template for the new arms. Then versions could have to be done, another meeting with the pope requested, granted and take place, then a version picked, then if formally be approved by those who deal with papal heraldry (just to ensure there was no accidential similarity with an earlier pope's coat of arms), then the final official agreement on the new coat of arms, the preparation of a version for the papal website, etc.
He was elected seven days ago. Come on, guys! I know religion is in the business of miracles but seven days to do all of that? Some pope's coat of arms took months to be designed. Some really really quick one weeks. But never days. FearÉIREANN 17:57, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The archdiocese's website includes a card with the new logo as well as his signature. It may not be the absolute final coat of arms, but it seems like it's what he's using in the interim. moded
This is the legal principle cited as the basis for the enciclical Humanae Vitae and is the basis for the entire teaching concerning human fertility .
I enquire of the Holy Father how soon will he choose institute a public enquiry of tribunal into the breaking of this law in direct intent by Pope Pius XI, Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli the future Pope Pius XII and Monsignor Ludwig Kaas Leader of the Catholic Centre Party in Germany, against the moral order of the Church and of all societies in general Flamekeeper 09:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dear Flamekeeper, if the three people in question did break this law they are now out of reach for the jurisdiction of the pope. But I don't think they are guilty of that. It was the German people (and I speak as a German) that voted for Hitler (whose party nonetheless never attained a majority in free elections), not the Pius XI, not Pacelli, not Prelate Kaas. It was Germans like Hindenburg father & son, Papen etc that brough Hitler to power, not Pius XI, Pacelli or Kaas. Election statistics show that the two groups largely immune against NS were Catholics and SocialDemocrats/trade unionists. You might citicize Kaas' bargaining with the Hitler government, but what would you do if someone was about to take your car by force? Would you not try to sell it to him, if possible. That's what Kaas did, he traded in his (doomed) Centre party to get some guarantees. Or a you criticize the Concordate? It was a treaty between the Holy See and the German Republic, still under President Hindenburg. Before 1933 the Church would have loved to make a concordate, but there was no majority avaiable. Now, why should they blow this opportunity? If the Hitler government would be short lived, as many expected, why not use this opportunity? If however, Hitler were here to stay, so much more of a need to set up rules and to protect the Church under an upcoming tyranny. Or do you criticize Pius XI for issuing "Mit brennender Sorge"? Or Pius XII for protecting many Italian Jews? And what would you have done? Str1977 15:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me that I shall address the central issue .This is not the place for discussing the von Papens, who are also implicated in the connivance , again naively . No , the defence against the quid pro quo appears to reside in a Catholic League quote from Dr Joachim Fest such that even should they have willed it , the Centre Party would not have had the numbers to make a difference .
However this is not borne out by the figures . Without the Centre bloc vote by Monsignor Kaas ( that is , together with the offshoot Bavarian People's Party vote ) the Hitler - Nationalist DNVP totalitarian vote was 347 . With Kaas this was 441 . A moralist bloc of this Centre with the Socialist moralist vote (such as was registered by their leader in those terms) would have required a totalitarian doubling of that bloc (92 centre +94 socialists) of 186 votes , to 372 deputies for the Act to pass.
But , even had the Centre split, carrying off , for arguments sake, the 18 Bavarian People's Deputies ,then the totalitarians would have been required to beat a (doubled because of the two -thirds majority) 74 Centre + 94 SPD , of 356 Deputies .
The Catholic League claim would require that the totalitarian vote would have to have been bolstered by the Bavarian BVP(18), all the minor parties (14) making an exact maximum of 372 , as above . . However the total votes cast were 535 and the total Nazi-DNvP vote was only 347 ; and these requisite numbers do not arise to support this defence -unless the by then zombie Communist party could have helped with their proscribed 81, that were never allowed into contention.
Unless the Socialists had fractured , which it seems they did not ( though their vote was 94 out of 120 deputies elected on March 3, 1933 ), and such defecting Socialists had made up the totalitarian numbers , which they did not , then the defense against the quid pro quo seems as deficient elctorally as it is morally .
This defense addresses none of the accusation , which is of a several years long process of political influence , one ,though , which has s quite calamitous specific dual culmination . More fully , the question should encompass a parallel quid pro quo with the forces of capital, every bit more in need of attention from the Upholder of the Law . It is an equal accusation that large numbers of household-name corporations have completely evaded the penalties requisite upon their own devastatingly corrupting influence .
It is reported by the Catholic League that Cardinal Pacelli wished to exorcise Adolf Hitler- that he considered him to be possessed by the Devil Flamekeeper 02:10, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Relevant link : http:www.//geocities.comvisplace/vatican10p2.htm explains the concerns of the Holy See , the Kaas importance and the monarchist factor in negotiations with the Centre (and the DNvP), and explains closely why there is a dearth of vatican documents.
The Postulator for Pius XII, Dr. Peter Gumpel SJ wrote in 1999 that John Cornwell was blinded by the writings of Heinrich Bruning , accepting Bruning's hatred of Papal Prelate Kaas and extending this to Pacelli since Kaas worked with Pacelli.
Many of us Catholics feel misrepresented by the Church heirarchy and especially under Benedict XVI. Millions of us disagree with him, in principle and practice, on contraception, condoms and HIV/Aids, homosexuality, married priesthood, women priests, and covering up sexual abuse by priests - to name a few things, never mind the fallacy of many Catholic doctrines. But we are still Catholics. We are trying to give our side, the people's side, the poor's side to the current debates.
"For some reason, the media is treating Pope Benedict XVI almost exactly like they treat President Bush. They're turning him into some kind of boogeyman, while ignoring the fact that his policies and beliefs are virtually identical to his much-praised predecessor. The poor man is being demonized because he's a Catholic Pope who is, well, Catholic." (from Dummocrats)
Kudos to Pope Benedict for foregoing the papal coronation and going back to the use of the pallium (in the style of the Christianity of the Sub-Apostolic Age) and the ring of the fisherman... I do hope that the Vatican makes this his official portrait. Viva il Papa! Aloysius Patacsil 19:21, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
This archive covers the last hours of April 21, 2005, and most of April 22.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratsche talk random 21:09, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
There's some debate in France about Ratzinger belonging to to Hitler's Youth at the age of 14. Ericd 13:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) OOooops, I've found a reference in the article. Ericd 13:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is some debate going on about whether to use the active or passive voice in describing the Pope's membership in the Hitler Youth. Some clearly are taking the view that he actively joined (albeit recognizing the mandatory nature of membership at the time). I've read articles stating specifically that the school he was studying in began automatically enrolling its students in the Hitler Youth 2 years before the Pope was a member at age 14. (See NYT) Can we come to some compromise on the wording. I think both sides are trying to avoid the potential POV connotations the other's phrasing could have. - J
The article from the NYT states that the school enrolled its students. This article ( http://kyw.com/pope/pope_story_113150419.html), referring to the Pope's autobiography, isn't definitive but concludes that the Pope seems to indicate the same thing. My problem, Lulu, is that it started out with the "was enrolled" phrase, which is used by the other half of articles versus the "joined" phrase. Then it was changed to "joined" to expressly make it active, when it isn't clear that he did the enrolling, although I think it is clear that he was aware of it. Your mention of not choosing to face thos negative consequences (although maybe meant to be "factual") can easily read as a POV/judgment on whether his form of resistance to the Nazis was "heroic" enough of "acceptable". I can leave with either of your compromises. - J
From article:
This statement is rather surprising, because frankly, many European conservatives are against the death penalty and preemptive war, want (allegedly, but that is what they say) social justice, and are, although probably to a lesser extent, opposed to the excesses of capitalism and consumerism. So this either needs a thorough re-working, or (that was probably meant) an addition of "US" somewhere. -- AlexR 16:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As Popes go he is a traditionalist, not conservative. Rangeley 17:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please, don't use "traditionalist" because of the anti-council implication (see earlier discussion), but to describe his views or stances as "traditional" is ok. I was responsible for the wording criticized, though I only rearranged it. I guess there is some US reference in there, but still even if European conservatives are somewhat different, the distinction between Benedict's stance should in neither case be equated with political conservatism. Str1977 17:44, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All right, I have worded it in a way, that cautions against equating Church's and Pope's stance with political conservatism in general (I think that's valid in every nation), but gave the too American examples as what they are, examples. Str1977 13:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It might seem odd but I wanted to let the Wiki contributors to the B16 entry that it is a fascinating read. Mowens35 17:30, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Could not find something about this in the guidelines; I see that References 4 and 6 are the same (to the same reprint in IHT of the same NYT article). Should these references be consolidated into one? 84.136.56.88 20:32, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
" National Socialist mathematics professor " Was the professor actually a Nazi, or merely a German required to join the party? I think the distinction is important. Mackensen (talk) 20:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The description of the professor as a nazi goes back to Benedict's own report. He said something like: "my maths professor, although himself a Nazi ..." Str1977 08:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"However, the use of condoms is permitted by the Church if one marital partner has HIV/AIDS."
Can anyone show me any sources for that? DKK
Can't we use a different one in that box with all his details? His eyes look terrible, his appearance is awful, there must surely be some more appropriate pictures of him taken soon after he became Pope.
Yeah, we will change it, when they release the official picture tomorrow. Rangeley 22:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No official one yet, however this one is much better then that old one File:Pope050424 cp 7511577.jpg Rangeley 19:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just found this on the commons. It is how Caridnal Ratzinger's name is pronounced in German (created by User:APPER). [2]. Zscout370 00:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the following line near the bottom of the page:
"He has also rejected the idea that divorced people can remarry and said they have no right to receive communion."
The way the above line is stated could make it sound like Ratzinger was saying divorced people should be barred from the Eucharist even if they don't remarry. As far as I am aware, divorced Catholics who don't remarry are NOT barred from the Sacraments, so I'd like to see a cite on Ratzinger's actual words, and have the above sentence edited for clarity if need be.
Thanks... WhFastus 02:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed in a lot of the article, it still refers to him as Ratzinger, when it should clearly be Benedict XVI. If you were to look in any other Pope's article, It was always John Paul II not Karol (except when describing his birth), And always John Paul I and not Albino. Why should it be any different for this pope? Rangeley 04:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Every pope should be described by their own name for things they did before they became pope. Cardinal Pacelli, not Pius XII, signed the Concordat with Germany in 1933. Cardinal della Rovere, not Julius II, led the opposition to Alexander VI. And so on. Benedict XVI is bound to have a lot of stuff referring to him as Ratzinger, because he did a lot of stuff while he was Ratzinger. He's the most previously well-known pope since Pius XII, by far, and before Pius XII I can't come up with one who was equivalently important. BTW, the proper parallels to "Ratzinger" would be Wojtyla and Luciani, not Karol and Albino. john k 04:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Looking at the article, though, it appears that there were many instances where he should be called Benedict when he is still called Ratzinger. I'm going through and changing them. john k 04:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is a long-standing tradition in papal history, though, of referring to popes by both their papal name and their original surname, particularly if their original surname is considered significant (either because they were well-known under it before they were created pope, or because they came from an important family). It is common with the Renaissance popes, who mostly came from noble families, so you will see them referred to, e.g., as "Leo X Medici" or "Pius II Piccolomini"; this was the practice of the popes themselve, as demonstrated most famously by the facade of St. Peter's, where the words over the door are "Paul V Borghese" (in Latin, of course). Someone as well-known as Gregory VII Hildebrand (who was very famous before his accession) is frequently referred to in history books simply as "Hildebrand", even with reference to things he did after he became pope. So in light of this, to refer to him as Benedict XVI Ratzinger, or even simply as "Ratzinger", is not unheard of. The use of the original surname is much more common, I think, in Europe than in North America - I have often heard Romans refer to John Paul II as "Pope Wojtyla".
Can we please get it straight? The occupation necessary is the occupation she had at the time of Ratzinger's birth. It seems improbable, not not impossible, that she worked for the German branch of Coca Cola at the time of his birth, but Wiki still requires a citation for this information. Most profiles of Benedict that I've accessed via Nexis-Lexis indicate that Maria Ratzinger (née Riger) was (a) a barmaid or (b) a cook. Again, this is at the time of his birth. If she worked for Coca Cola later in life, that information should be included. But it is important for someone to determine what her occupation was in 1927. Mowens35 10:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK, folks. The
Palpatine picture is amusing, but inappropriate. I'm taking it down. Looks like somebody beat me to it.
Popefelix 14:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
http://news.google.com/news?q=ingrid+stampa
New to the Wiki, so I didn't really want to make any changes on my own. I did, however, feel the need to at least point out that this paragraph:
The position is not arbitrary nor moralistic, but possesses a rigorous philosophical basis (See Karol Wojtyla's Love and Responsibility). It seems that considerable weight can be given to this position, as abstinence promoted in the country of Uganda has reduced an AIDS population of 29% to roughly 6%, as opposed to other countries where condoms are promoted and the infection levels have either remained stable or increased.
Is not correct. This Feb. 24, 2005 article from the Washington Post reports quite the opposite:
Abstinence and sexual fidelity have played virtually no role in the much-heralded decline of AIDS rates in the most closely studied region of Uganda, two researchers told a gathering of AIDS scientists here.
It is the deaths of previously infected people, not dramatic change in human behavior, that is the main engine behind the ebbing of the overall rate, or prevalence, of AIDS in southern Uganda over the last decade, they reported. ...
Wawer's findings come from a study of 10,000 people ages 15 to 49 who live in 44 villages near Uganda's border with Tanzania. Each year researchers have gone door to door collecting blood and urine samples and asking about health and behavior. About 85 percent of residents cooperate with the study, which over the years has grown to include AIDS treatment and prevention services as well as research. ...
Condom use, however, changed markedly over the survey period. In 1994, only about 10 percent of the men said they consistently used condoms with non-marital partners, compared with 50 percent in 2003. For women of the same age, the rate of condom use in non-marital sex increased from 2 percent to 28 percent.
I believe that this paragraph in the article should be removed, as I believe it is unrelated to the facts, attempts to add opinion (The position is not arbitrary nor moralistic) that is not supported, and is generally inaccurate.
However, I don't want to just hack away at someone else's work, and others may have a different perspective.
The claims cited in the washington post article are false, as well. There is a response that was published as one of the letters in followups to the article, stating that the study was carried out in the Rakai district, I believe, which only accounted for 2% of the population and was not representative of the population of Uganda. It can be argued that as it was left in its current format, the statement was quite opinionated as well, and decidedly pro-condom.
I think the pronouncation link is outdated (he is surely not Cardinal Ratzinger anymore). Should it be removed (and replaced with just Joseph Ratzinger, like Pope John Paul II article's Karol Wojtila)?
The current image look terrible. Couldn't we find some nice images?
Update: I sent an email to the Vatican Press Office, asking when PD photos of B16 will be released. I am waiting for a reply in the next few days. Zscout370 20:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why are many of the sections repeated? I've removed the major repetition at the beginning, but there are still sentences repeated here and there.
"Though the style His Holiness is used by Catholics and some other people, it is offensive to followers of some other religions."
This note is really ridiculous. It should be removed.
The dispute which continues to arise over the use of the style His Holiness has been discussed at length already, and is current Wikipedia policy. Some people think that the style is NPOV, others consider it controversial, but until and unless the policy is changed, it stands as is. With that having been said, I have proposed a survey that Wikipedians may wish to discuss regarding a change to the standing policy, so that the style might be included contextually within the article rather than at the outset. If you wish to participate in this ongoing discussion, please join the conversation at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Proposed Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles in Biographies. Whig 19:26, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some discussants and article editors have claimed that the style "His Holiness" is "Wikipedia style policy." But it was only added as style policy in the last couple days, and specifically by the same users who keep adding the style back in this article.
The truth, quite simply, is that the honorific is a Catholic POV, is offensive to some/many readers, and is at odds with the usage in all other encyclopedias, news sources, etc. The point of this article should not be "Vatican press release", but rather a NEUTRAL article.
However, I would not object to the usage later in the article, if it was accompanied by a contextualizing remark about the range of its usage. Much as the similar honorific was used for the Dalai Lama before some of the same involved people changed the Dalai Lama article to conform with their newfound "policy." Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters
First, it is not true that this has been wikipedia style policy for only a few days. It has been policy for at least several months. Secondly, the idea that this is a "Catholic POV" is absurd. Non-Catholics also refer to the pope as "His Holiness," and this style has nothing to do with whether or not the pope is holy. It is simply a style attaching to the pope. Is it a "Catholic POV" to refer to the Archbishop of Westminster, since Anglicans believe that this area is under the jurisdiction of the Anglican Bishop of London? john k 03:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Today, the Duke of Edinburgh, the husband of the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, was clearly heard calling Ben "Your Holiness". The (Anglican) Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, called the Pope "His Holiness" on the BBC. And the non-Catholic King Carl XVI Gustav was also heard calling the Pope "Your Holiness", as did George W. Bush when he met John Paul II, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome when he welcomed JPII to his church, and the (Jewish) President of Israel when he welcomed JPII to his country. So how then is it Catholic POV for wikipedia to use a form of address used by the Duke of Edinburgh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the King of Sweden, the President of the United States, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome and the President of Israel? And how exactly are we endorsing it by using it? Or were all the above endorsing it? Does that mean that the Duke of Edinburgh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the King of Sweden, the President of the United States, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome and the President of Israel are all secret Catholics or something? Pray do explain, Lulu. FearÉIREANN 03:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jtdirl, thank you for those examples on the various people (and religions) who use the term His/Your Holiness. I personally use this term, mainly as a mark of respect for Benedict XVI (along with John Paul II). As for the policy itself, Whig, do you want to copy and paste what the policy states for everyone here to read?
As referrenced earlier, I did an edit to make some people happy with that statement. I made some happy, I know I upset many of you, but I am just trying to see what kind of "happy medium" exists here. I know I sounded harsh, but this is really starting to get me annoyed. Zscout370 11:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing in this article as yet on the new Pope's inauguration that took place today. I think it was quite remarkably because people applauded many times during his sermon. And does anyone know if the Eastern Catholic churches were involved with any inauguration of a previous pope like they were this time? -- Maxl 19:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The inauguration is discussed in the Papal Inauguration article. I honestly think that section ought to be moved here, because the other article should be on Papal Inaugurations in general. =\ -- user:Jenmoa
Good god, no. Don't move it here. This article is too big already and will have to have things taken out, not more put in. FearÉIREANN 03:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We should keep an eye on this page, http://members.tripod.com/romeartlover/cataloga.html to see when the new Papal arms has been designed for the Holy Father. Zscout370 21:18, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to remove the question mark just after the soundbite of the name. I tried, but couldn't get it done. Str1977 22:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
File:Pope050424 cp 7511577.jpg Is this image fully sourced properly? Cantus raised doubts, I clarified sources further, but If we are missing anything else we might as well fix it rather then go back to that terrible picture cantus keeps putting up where he looks half dead. Rangeley 02:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious about how truthful some of the information on AIDS is. There is a comment about abstinence being more effective than condoms, in terms of fightings AIDS. I find this hard to believe - is one pro-church example being used? I know, in Canada, we have sex education programs for children that have consistenly found more liberal sex-ducation more effecient.
Just because it is disputed by some, it is not necessarily false. And it is in the controversy section, where naturally controversial things are stated, but from both sides. Str1977 08:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians!
There are people who vandalise this page. The whole article is being removed and insulting texts (about the Pope and Christians in general) are put on the page instead.
Perhaps the page should be secured from edditing for a while.
Kind regards Allard, Mon 25 April 2005 10:28
p.s. I did restore the old page TWICE!, but for how long it will last?
I don't know if it's (technically) possible or in line with wiki rules, but how about restricting editing to registered users (vs IPs). I know that's not a nice thing to do, but maybe a way to substantially reduce the vandalism (I mean the extreme form), as registered users can be held accountable whereas IPs can't. Just a thought, I'm feeling uneasy about it too. Str1977 08:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I moved the "abuse section" from the "cardinal" section into the "controversial views" section, where it was originally, but someone constantly moves it back to the "cardinal" section. I think it belongs to the "controversial views" section, since a) the paragraphs are discussing a controversy b) it is rather bulky im comparison to the rest of the cardinal section. If we want to put it there, we should be much more elaborate on other issues during his cardinalate. Another thing is the phrase "As prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, such abuses were ultimately his responsibility to investigate ..." Can anyone give evidence fo that. The CDF is concerned with doctrinal issues and though abuse is a sin, it's not heresy. Str1977 09:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The text on Ratzinger's role in relation to the scandal is largely about his behaviour as Prefect. It is not a "view", any more than his being born in Maktl am Inn is a "view". (The Views section is objectionable anyway, as it partially duplicates Theology and is something of a shopping list of things he's said that people have objected to. There must be better ways of putting the details of his theology/views.) Rd232 09:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But the abuse section is too bulky. We now have two or three sentences about this cardinalate in general and then three paragraphs about the abuse, going very much into detail. And maybe the "views" is an unfortunate wording, and yes, it is sort of shopping for objections, but since people have put it in, I'm not the one to remove it. Str1977 09:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And the "other faiths" section is definitely a view. Str1977 10:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I listened to the complete (fifteen-minute) radio interview (April 20 2005) with Cardinal Connell on RTE Radio (I'm Irish.) There was not one word about Cardinal Ratzinger advising him about to handle the the sex abuse case. I also saw Connell's (April 20) RTE Television interview. This lasted a little more than five minutes, and also was entirely silent about sex abuse cases. Both interviews can be found here [4] (scroll to the bottom). For the moment, I'm removing the statement that Connell says his approach to the sex abuse cases was guided by Ratzinger. If anyone wishes to reinsert it, please provide a source that can be verified. He did not say it in an RTE Interview on 20 April. Ann Heneghan 10:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The article is so full of hyperlinks I just want to run away screaming when I see it. Do we really need links for every single date mentioned, for example? Birth, yes. Key points of career, sure. Selection and inauguration, absolutely. But the rest?
And same goes for things that should be common knowledge, like " German", " World_War_I" etc. And come on, " family" and " marriage"? You just did that to piss people like me off, admit it. magetoo 11:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It seems pretty systematic that what many editors are inserting is an explicitly pro-Catholic POV (they may or may not be Catholic themselves, I recognize). There's a common conceit, I think, that the official Vatican position or language on any issue is the same as "neutral." But it's really just the opposite--that's the specific positions of the most interested party (not a disinterested encyclopedia). This comes out in pretty much everything I've tried to restore to NPOV. E.g., trying to get the offensive honorific moved to mention rather than use ( Use-mention_distinction) (it's a fact that people use it, but it is offensive and would not be used by many other people--including me, FWIW, as an athiest).
Likewise with the attempt to falsely insinuate a greater passivity in Ratzinger's wartime activity than is evidenced or plausible. As if he was just as uninvolved volitionally in joining the Hitler Youth as is it were "he was struck by a meteor." If you have a strong POV, niggly language to try to absolve responsibility and involvement makes your case. But it just ain't neutral. Unfortunately, even with a source already judged reputable, the pro-Pope POV editors vandalize accurate, neutral language such as:
Very frustrating! The Vatican already has their own website, why can't Wikipedia be an encyclopedia instead? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:37, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
If you want to address this issue, this is not the place. Prefixed styles of address are current Wikipedia policy. Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Revised proposal for comment if you wish to help us put together a survey on the subject. Whig 18:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I listened to the complete (fifteen-minute) radio interview (April 20 2005) with Cardinal Connell on RTE Radio (I'm Irish.) There was not one word about Cardinal Ratzinger advising him about to handle the the sex abuse case. I also saw Connell's (April 20) RTE Television interview. This lasted a little more than five minutes, and also was entirely silent about sex abuse cases. Both interviews can be found here [8] (scroll to the bottom). For the moment, I'm removing the statement that Connell says his approach to the sex abuse cases was guided by Ratzinger. If anyone wishes to reinsert it, please provide a source that can be verified. He did not say it in an RTE Interview on 20 April. Ann Heneghan 10:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I moved the "abuse section" from the "cardinal" section into the "controversial views" section, where it was originally, but someone constantly moves it back to the "cardinal" section. I think it belongs to the "controversial views" section, since a) the paragraphs are discussing a controversy b) it is rather bulky im comparison to the rest of the cardinal section. If we want to put it there, we should be much more elaborate on other issues during his cardinalate. Another thing is the phrase "As prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, such abuses were ultimately his responsibility to investigate ..." Can anyone give evidence fo that. The CDF is concerned with doctrinal issues and though abuse is a sin, it's not heresy. Str1977 09:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The text on Ratzinger's role in relation to the scandal is largely about his behaviour as Prefect. It is not a "view", any more than his being born in Maktl am Inn is a "view". (The Views section is objectionable anyway, as it partially duplicates Theology and is something of a shopping list of things he's said that people have objected to. There must be better ways of putting the details of his theology/views.) Rd232 09:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But the abuse section is too bulky. We now have two or three sentences about this cardinalate in general and then three paragraphs about the abuse, going very much into detail. And maybe the "views" is an unfortunate wording, and yes, it is sort of shopping for objections, but since people have put it in, I'm not the one to remove it. Str1977 09:58, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And the "other faiths" section is definitely a view. Str1977 10:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I question why we're quoting the Observer so much in the first paragraph of the Abuse section. All of the quotes seem to be of the Observer's interpretation of the letter. I realize that skill in Ecclesiastical Latin is somewhat rare, but I personally think it would make a lot more sense to cut out the middle-man and quote directly from the primary text, since it is available. Anyone? -- MikeJ9919 01:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Most style-of-address books give "Your/His Holiness" for the Pope, and the then Popes are referred to as His Holines in journals and newspapers of the 18th and 19th century.
Perhaps the discussion on titles should be transferred to the Pope-as-office article (and with references for other popes - Coptic etc) and/ or, as it is likely to recur each time a new Pope is installed.
The sentence in the main text about German Popes having fallen out of favour when Protestantism sprouted in that country, while creating an interesting image needs rewriting slightly.
The footnotes in this article don't work properly. When you click on some of the numbers, they don't take you to that number in the list at the bottom, and vice versa. I'm not sure what needs to be done to make it work. -- John 15:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Could their be a infobox about when the pope will travel to other countries and other places? -- Contrib 17:06, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is Pope Benedict XVI into any kind of music? What language's does he speak? -- Contrib 17:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
People keep adding fake pictures to the article. If someone can think of a solution get back to me. -- Contrib 17:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone think their are to many pictures of Pope Benedict XVI? With all of the vandalism this could be a problem but it's up to you all. -- Contrib 18:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
PD Picture: found one, from Wikimedia Commons: (see above) Zscout370 (talk) 18:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for the duplication posts but it's getting really frequent on the Pope Benedict XVI page. Please take note. -- Contrib 18:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The duplication needs to be sorted out. -- Contrib 18:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What holidays does Pope Benedict XVI celebrate? -- Contrib 18:19, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I thought we were going to get a new one after he had his mass of inaugaration. It's still the same horrible picture.
The person blanked the page and wrote some vulgar things so I deleted that but the page got blanked. Take note. -- Contrib 18:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I did indeed. Your point being? -- 131.111.8.96 18:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This person who blanked the Pope Benedict XVI article should be banned and is causing vandalism all over wikipedia.-- Contrib 18:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am taking this vandal to the Vandalism in progress page for reporting. Zscout370 18:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism to you, but to me it is the holy truth! -- 131.111.8.96 18:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You should know better but obviously you like being a nuisence so get out of wikipedia and the talk pages. Zscout this person needs to be banned. -- Contrib 18:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The person is question is now blocked. FearÉIREANN 18:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately it is the IP of Cambridge University, which is used by thousands. At least according to its info. Rangeley 23:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking maybe through some sort of divine inspiration John Paul II knew that his Prefect of CDF would be elected Pope after him. Ratzinger twice submitted his resignation but was rejected by JPII, perhaps to keep him in the limelight and thus a more viable candidate. He also chose Cologne, Germany to host the next World Youth Day, a perfect homecoming for his successor.
Perhaps this picture tells it all:
http://www.fshcm.com/prophetic.jpg
Why use the word "Universal Church" in the first paragraph, when referring to the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" (in short the Catcholic Church)? I believe that this organisation does not have churches in other parts of the universe than planer Earth, therefore not being a universal church. -- User:HJV 20:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This page has been under attack all night (well it is night here in Ireland). It seems to have been besieged with vandalism in the last half an hour. I have temporarily protected it to stop this siege. Earlier attempts to drive away vandals by blocking them did not work. Protection was the last option to stop it. Apologies to all serious wikipedians inconvenienced by this, but it had hit a point where protection was the only option. FearÉIREANN 03:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The most recent vandal has been blocked. However as there has been a spate of vandalism here I think it wise to leave this page protected for the moment. I am leaving wikipedia now for the night. If there is agreement among users that it is now safe to unlock this page, contact any administrator and request that they do so. FearÉIREANN 04:24, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
http://www.erzbistum-muenchen.de/archiv/iMA011/iMA01116001.JPG (source: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising website) moded
[21] (Source: Yahoo! Images)
Isn't that the Papal Coat of Arms for Pope Benedict XVI? Obviously, this was taken when he emerged from the balcony after being elected.
However, on the Papal Installation Ceremony, a similar coat of arms appeared on the same place but instead of a navy blue shield, there is a white shield.
When is The Vatican revealing his true coat of arms?
When they have a coat of arms to reveal. The man who did the coats of arms of John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI and John XXIII is now dead. So they are going to have to find a new person to do the design. That person will then have to discuss with the new pope what he wants in the arms (and that new pope is probably rather busy right now). Some research may also be done into Ben's family history to see if there ever was an earlier coat of arms - if there was, it could be used as the template for the new arms. Then versions could have to be done, another meeting with the pope requested, granted and take place, then a version picked, then if formally be approved by those who deal with papal heraldry (just to ensure there was no accidential similarity with an earlier pope's coat of arms), then the final official agreement on the new coat of arms, the preparation of a version for the papal website, etc.
He was elected seven days ago. Come on, guys! I know religion is in the business of miracles but seven days to do all of that? Some pope's coat of arms took months to be designed. Some really really quick one weeks. But never days. FearÉIREANN 17:57, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The archdiocese's website includes a card with the new logo as well as his signature. It may not be the absolute final coat of arms, but it seems like it's what he's using in the interim. moded
This is the legal principle cited as the basis for the enciclical Humanae Vitae and is the basis for the entire teaching concerning human fertility .
I enquire of the Holy Father how soon will he choose institute a public enquiry of tribunal into the breaking of this law in direct intent by Pope Pius XI, Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli the future Pope Pius XII and Monsignor Ludwig Kaas Leader of the Catholic Centre Party in Germany, against the moral order of the Church and of all societies in general Flamekeeper 09:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dear Flamekeeper, if the three people in question did break this law they are now out of reach for the jurisdiction of the pope. But I don't think they are guilty of that. It was the German people (and I speak as a German) that voted for Hitler (whose party nonetheless never attained a majority in free elections), not the Pius XI, not Pacelli, not Prelate Kaas. It was Germans like Hindenburg father & son, Papen etc that brough Hitler to power, not Pius XI, Pacelli or Kaas. Election statistics show that the two groups largely immune against NS were Catholics and SocialDemocrats/trade unionists. You might citicize Kaas' bargaining with the Hitler government, but what would you do if someone was about to take your car by force? Would you not try to sell it to him, if possible. That's what Kaas did, he traded in his (doomed) Centre party to get some guarantees. Or a you criticize the Concordate? It was a treaty between the Holy See and the German Republic, still under President Hindenburg. Before 1933 the Church would have loved to make a concordate, but there was no majority avaiable. Now, why should they blow this opportunity? If the Hitler government would be short lived, as many expected, why not use this opportunity? If however, Hitler were here to stay, so much more of a need to set up rules and to protect the Church under an upcoming tyranny. Or do you criticize Pius XI for issuing "Mit brennender Sorge"? Or Pius XII for protecting many Italian Jews? And what would you have done? Str1977 15:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me that I shall address the central issue .This is not the place for discussing the von Papens, who are also implicated in the connivance , again naively . No , the defence against the quid pro quo appears to reside in a Catholic League quote from Dr Joachim Fest such that even should they have willed it , the Centre Party would not have had the numbers to make a difference .
However this is not borne out by the figures . Without the Centre bloc vote by Monsignor Kaas ( that is , together with the offshoot Bavarian People's Party vote ) the Hitler - Nationalist DNVP totalitarian vote was 347 . With Kaas this was 441 . A moralist bloc of this Centre with the Socialist moralist vote (such as was registered by their leader in those terms) would have required a totalitarian doubling of that bloc (92 centre +94 socialists) of 186 votes , to 372 deputies for the Act to pass.
But , even had the Centre split, carrying off , for arguments sake, the 18 Bavarian People's Deputies ,then the totalitarians would have been required to beat a (doubled because of the two -thirds majority) 74 Centre + 94 SPD , of 356 Deputies .
The Catholic League claim would require that the totalitarian vote would have to have been bolstered by the Bavarian BVP(18), all the minor parties (14) making an exact maximum of 372 , as above . . However the total votes cast were 535 and the total Nazi-DNvP vote was only 347 ; and these requisite numbers do not arise to support this defence -unless the by then zombie Communist party could have helped with their proscribed 81, that were never allowed into contention.
Unless the Socialists had fractured , which it seems they did not ( though their vote was 94 out of 120 deputies elected on March 3, 1933 ), and such defecting Socialists had made up the totalitarian numbers , which they did not , then the defense against the quid pro quo seems as deficient elctorally as it is morally .
This defense addresses none of the accusation , which is of a several years long process of political influence , one ,though , which has s quite calamitous specific dual culmination . More fully , the question should encompass a parallel quid pro quo with the forces of capital, every bit more in need of attention from the Upholder of the Law . It is an equal accusation that large numbers of household-name corporations have completely evaded the penalties requisite upon their own devastatingly corrupting influence .
It is reported by the Catholic League that Cardinal Pacelli wished to exorcise Adolf Hitler- that he considered him to be possessed by the Devil Flamekeeper 02:10, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Relevant link : http:www.//geocities.comvisplace/vatican10p2.htm explains the concerns of the Holy See , the Kaas importance and the monarchist factor in negotiations with the Centre (and the DNvP), and explains closely why there is a dearth of vatican documents.
The Postulator for Pius XII, Dr. Peter Gumpel SJ wrote in 1999 that John Cornwell was blinded by the writings of Heinrich Bruning , accepting Bruning's hatred of Papal Prelate Kaas and extending this to Pacelli since Kaas worked with Pacelli.
Many of us Catholics feel misrepresented by the Church heirarchy and especially under Benedict XVI. Millions of us disagree with him, in principle and practice, on contraception, condoms and HIV/Aids, homosexuality, married priesthood, women priests, and covering up sexual abuse by priests - to name a few things, never mind the fallacy of many Catholic doctrines. But we are still Catholics. We are trying to give our side, the people's side, the poor's side to the current debates.
"For some reason, the media is treating Pope Benedict XVI almost exactly like they treat President Bush. They're turning him into some kind of boogeyman, while ignoring the fact that his policies and beliefs are virtually identical to his much-praised predecessor. The poor man is being demonized because he's a Catholic Pope who is, well, Catholic." (from Dummocrats)
Kudos to Pope Benedict for foregoing the papal coronation and going back to the use of the pallium (in the style of the Christianity of the Sub-Apostolic Age) and the ring of the fisherman... I do hope that the Vatican makes this his official portrait. Viva il Papa! Aloysius Patacsil 19:21, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)