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Maybe they are completely nonsensical...just a thought... Colin4C 11:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I was taught that the poem referred to organized crime in London, the Eagle (pub) being a meeting place, anyone feel like doing some digging on that? Empty Hat
My father (who was an authentic cockney - born within the sound of Bow Bells and all that) always taught me that "Weasel" was cockney slang for a wedding ring...although he never came up with a convincing rhyming slang for it (not that I can recall at least). So "Pop goes the weasel" would mean "Pawning the wedding ring" - which would be a much more logical thing to pawn than a coat or something with functional value - and in those days might well have been the most valuable thing a poor family owned. The use of "pop" to mean "pawn" is still in use in some parts of the UK where a pawn shop is sometimes called a "popping shop". SteveBaker 01:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
This gets the most common version of the lyrics wrong. It isn't "Up and down the King's Road/ In and out The Eagle," but rather "Up and down The City Road/ In and out The Eagle" (The Eagle still stands on The City Road in north London). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:700E:300:D5F6:AB1C:46A2:1575 ( talk) 21:23, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
User:89.241.68.248 inserted this in the intro after the statement that the tune originated in the 17th century: Gazpacho
[This may be innacurate. My understanding is that the tune is a version of a tune recorded in Gow's Repository, which was printed in 4 volumes 1799-1820, and that this tune is in turn similar to certain jigs traceable back to the 17th Century- source: www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pop1.htm As I understand, there is no printed citation for the nursery rhyme itself previous to the mid 19th century. While it may well have existed in oral form for many years before this, there is, as I understand, currently no evidence of this. Source: www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pop-goes-the-weasel Note added by Keith Macpherson]
Footnote 6 in the Origin section of the main article is not correct. Miller and Beacham's Pop Goes the Weasel was published in 1856 - NOT 1850. You can read the copyright notice on the bottom of page 2 of the sheet music, as preserved on the Lester S. Levy sheet music collection, maintained online by Johns Hopkins University.
https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/16027 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Svaihingen ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Fyi, the copyright date of a song being sold is not the date of printing, and not reliable for dating songs advertised for sale on the back page. For example, in the one you cite, one song advertised on the back page was written in honor of the Washington Monument in 1858, so the sheet was printed at least 7 years after 1851. Other than Quinion saying it was written in 1850, without citing any source that can be checked, I have not seen any references to the song by that name prior to 1852. And none is cited in the article. I see no support for the claim in the first place, so it should be removed from the article. Svaihingen ( talk) 02:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
As I know the tune (since I was a child) and indeed even as it was whistled by Riker in the episode of ST-TNG quoted in the article, the third note from the end as shown in the sheet music should be an F not a D. That is to say the last three notes descend in order. Searching various midi files on the internet which unfortunately I may not link to as they do not seem to be in the public domain, this seems to be borne out by how everyone else who knows the tune expects it to sound too. In other words, the sheet music is wrong. A public domain midi or ogg version of the song would be useful is someone has the resources to create and/or host. Aethandor ( talk) 09:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
In fact as I look more closely at the tune, the fourth note (D) should be an F, the the twelth note (D) should be an F, the fourth note on the second line (D) should be an F, plus the third note fro the end as previously mentioned. The tune portrayed by the music notation shown is therefore very incorrect. I move that the sheet music should therefore be removed, and replaced as soon as possible with an example that is correct in one of many forms (sheet music, ogg, midi, wav) Aethandor ( talk) 09:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I know what you mean. I have created a new image file with a slightly different version of the tune, incorporating the first change I suggested here but not the later ones and have used it to replace the original image. I suspect that the tune varies slightly depending upon the person singing it and which verse is being sung. I have created a couple of midi files sounding the melody in the original listed form plus the two versions I have suggested, and if I can find a location to store them online and link to them I'm place them in the public domain and link to them here so it can be possible to hear the tune being played. Aethandor ( talk) 14:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I know what you mean now, it's actually a 'C' but I left it out because it's an extra note which is sung to make the syllables of the lyrics fit the tune for that verse, but it doesn't apply for every verse. If you have a listen to the midi file which I've linked to, does it sound correct to you ? The midi file plays the tune as shown in the image file of the sheet music.
By way of comparison, the tune as it would sound if one were to play the music as written in the previous image would sound as
http://hansolo.f-sw.com/midi_pd/popgoesweasel_written.mid.
Aethandor (
talk) 20:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Image:Pop Goes the Weasel melody.PNG is sourced but has no fair-use rationale for Pop Goes the Weasel. Hyacinth ( talk) 23:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I remember a different melody for the verse which starts "Up and down the City Road." It's a higher melody starting on the C above middle C, and is missing from both the displayed tune and the sound clip. Difrankel ( talk) 18:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Presumably the versions in which the cobbler's bench is replaced by the mulberry bush are due to cross-contamination with Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush? — Hieronymus Illinensis ( talk) 22:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
The (UK) 2nd verse I knew as a child was
And I was told it related to 2 pubs near Fleet Street and the profligacy of the local journalists. A nice story for which I know no referents, sadly, although it might fit better with the 'City Road' verse.
Sorry, more amusement value than actual use. ;) -- 94.212.2.245 ( talk) 09:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I just added the version I learned as a child in Ireland:
Sorry I have no citation to support it, so someone may delete it, but at least it is interesting because the scene is set in the tailor's shop, complete with needle and weasel. Another thing: I was taught a version where the first four notes were the same. I notice that in the here, the first two notes are the same, and the following two notes are above them. Interesting. -- 71.208.51.129 ( talk) 19:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
The tune to Nancy Dawson, from the mid 1700's, is often quoted as being the tune leading to Pop Goes the Weasel. Of course, no music is original so who knows where that was ripped off from.
I have collected a lot of information about and studied these lyrics for well over 5 years now. The following is 3/4 pure results of my research, and 1/4 logical deduction and fully open to input and comment, Please:
One relatively recent form of the lyrics (believed to be from the 1850's) go as follows:
Half a pound of tuppenny rice, Half a pound of treacle. Mix it up and make it nice, Pop! goes the weasel.
A penny for a spool of thread, A penny for a needle That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.
Up and down the City Road, In and out the Eagle, That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.
One common explanation of the meaning invokes the use of cockney slang claiming that "pop goes the weasel" refers to "pawning one's coat ("weasel" -> "weasel and stoat" -> nowadays means "coat"))"
However, I believe the meaning is somewhat different, yet still cockney slang. "Pop", in this case probably simply means "pop" (as in "oops, it's all gone... shot, blown". Rather than "COAT", however, I believe that one meaning for the cockney slang for "weasel" in older days (sorry no specific reference available as yet - still searching) referred to a denomination of money (as a great many cockney slang, especially those referring to animals, did then and still do to this day) and actually refers to the, now obsolete, currency the "GROAT". By the way "monkey" used in other verses of the song is coincidentally current cockney slang for a 500 pound note ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_slang) ... coincidence? The original English "groat" was a silver coin worth roughly 4 pence originally (and various other values later as it was depreciated). I am, among other things an avid collector of old coinage.
If you add up the values mentioned in the first two versus of this commonly published version of the song you come out with a total of 4 pennies which amazingly enough, equals 1 groat for the first two verses. In the era of tupenny rice (meaning rice selling for 2 pennies per pound, or 1 penny per 1/2 pound) 1/2 lb of treacle (a sugary syrup) also generally sold for a penny, as I researched. Note (importantly): the lyrics do NOT say, "that's the way the money goes" after the FIRST verse, only after the second. Therefore these two versus were meant to go together (versus the third verse, which DOES say "that's the way the money goes" and explained further below)
The groat was originally created in the 1300's as a silver coin worth 4 pennies. It was abandoned in the mid-1600's. However... it was newly reissued in 1835 and used as late as 1890 (according to Brewer's 1870 Dictionary of Phrase and Fable - late 1800s revised edition - "the modern groat was introduced in 1835, and withdrawn in 1887" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_Dictionary_of_Phrase_and_Fable).
Cockney slang is generally believed to have originated in the 1840's shortly before the reported origin of the above referenced version of the song. The groat at that time had just recently been revived in 1835, thus logically being still quite popular in the current vernacular. It all logically fits! In this context, the coat-pawning, based on today's contemporary slang is arguably logically more of a reach than this explanation.
The additional "Eagle" verse (if truly used at the same time) seems to fit quite nicely as referring to spending ones money as well, in a different way. If you look at the words again closely, with respect to the the above information it all fits perfectly as a commentary that you can either spend your money responsibly "eating modestly and maintaining ones clothing appearance" or "blowing ones earnings solely at the Eagle" (and starving as a shoddy bum). Either way it's all gone.
Based purely on my own personal reading of the various verse origins data, I would strongly suggest that the Eagle verse was an independent satirical, parody stage performance version with modified lyrics of the then popular tune, much like a modern day "Weird Al" spoof. These were quite common then as well.
I can provide more citations concerning prices, dates, etc. Or they may be left as an exercise for the page manager and reader.
Cheers!
Mike M.
MikePCAP ( talk) 10:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)mikepcap
OK - it's original research, but what about truth! I refer you to
Which is an 1854 Broadside ballad entitled 'Down By The Dark Arches' [under the railway]. Observe verse 5 in which the narrator is assaulted by a ruffian 'with black eye and stick' who precedes the attack by announcing 'Pop goes the Weasel'. This surely indicates the phrase was understood at that time to presage violence (with a stick?) Perhaps the Weasel was the stick? and the 'Pop' was what it did to your head?
Or more generally perhaps 'an explosion of activity'? (weasels being very active creatures).
109.144.254.80 ( talk) 21:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
All,
My family are Londoners back to the 1840s and seem quite attentive to family traditions (i.e., they are actively interested in things like the meaning of this song). No guarantee of anything, obviously, but anyway I asked my folks what "the weasel" was. They said it is what the rent money was called in their family, stretching back as far as anyone could remember. So they presumed that was what the song was talking about. Seems to fit with the theme of money being spent as quick as you have it - some cheap rice, some treacle, waste some money down the pub, pop goes the weasel.
Cheers
Mike Knights — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.195.24.98 ( talk) 17:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Grover cleveland ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
A contributor removed info from « Pop recordings » section because it was unsourced and decided it was trivial. I've moved these here to preserve the work in the hope someone will want to source the more important ones (ie by major artists or chart success) and include it again.
JeanPaulGRingault ( talk) 11:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Rublamb ( talk) 19:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC) Rublamb ( talk) 16:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article because it lacks a source:
A standard modern Canadian version goes: "All around the Cottage about, the monkey chased the weasel, the monkey thought it was all a big/good joke, Pop! Goes the weasel." Rublamb ( talk) 17:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Like a skunk, when threatened, weasels will emit a foul smelling spray. 'The monkey thought [the chase] was all in fun; Pop goes the weasel!' 184.151.37.20 ( talk) 21:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pop Goes the Weasel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Maybe they are completely nonsensical...just a thought... Colin4C 11:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I was taught that the poem referred to organized crime in London, the Eagle (pub) being a meeting place, anyone feel like doing some digging on that? Empty Hat
My father (who was an authentic cockney - born within the sound of Bow Bells and all that) always taught me that "Weasel" was cockney slang for a wedding ring...although he never came up with a convincing rhyming slang for it (not that I can recall at least). So "Pop goes the weasel" would mean "Pawning the wedding ring" - which would be a much more logical thing to pawn than a coat or something with functional value - and in those days might well have been the most valuable thing a poor family owned. The use of "pop" to mean "pawn" is still in use in some parts of the UK where a pawn shop is sometimes called a "popping shop". SteveBaker 01:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
This gets the most common version of the lyrics wrong. It isn't "Up and down the King's Road/ In and out The Eagle," but rather "Up and down The City Road/ In and out The Eagle" (The Eagle still stands on The City Road in north London). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:700E:300:D5F6:AB1C:46A2:1575 ( talk) 21:23, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
User:89.241.68.248 inserted this in the intro after the statement that the tune originated in the 17th century: Gazpacho
[This may be innacurate. My understanding is that the tune is a version of a tune recorded in Gow's Repository, which was printed in 4 volumes 1799-1820, and that this tune is in turn similar to certain jigs traceable back to the 17th Century- source: www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pop1.htm As I understand, there is no printed citation for the nursery rhyme itself previous to the mid 19th century. While it may well have existed in oral form for many years before this, there is, as I understand, currently no evidence of this. Source: www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pop-goes-the-weasel Note added by Keith Macpherson]
Footnote 6 in the Origin section of the main article is not correct. Miller and Beacham's Pop Goes the Weasel was published in 1856 - NOT 1850. You can read the copyright notice on the bottom of page 2 of the sheet music, as preserved on the Lester S. Levy sheet music collection, maintained online by Johns Hopkins University.
https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/16027 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Svaihingen ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Fyi, the copyright date of a song being sold is not the date of printing, and not reliable for dating songs advertised for sale on the back page. For example, in the one you cite, one song advertised on the back page was written in honor of the Washington Monument in 1858, so the sheet was printed at least 7 years after 1851. Other than Quinion saying it was written in 1850, without citing any source that can be checked, I have not seen any references to the song by that name prior to 1852. And none is cited in the article. I see no support for the claim in the first place, so it should be removed from the article. Svaihingen ( talk) 02:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
As I know the tune (since I was a child) and indeed even as it was whistled by Riker in the episode of ST-TNG quoted in the article, the third note from the end as shown in the sheet music should be an F not a D. That is to say the last three notes descend in order. Searching various midi files on the internet which unfortunately I may not link to as they do not seem to be in the public domain, this seems to be borne out by how everyone else who knows the tune expects it to sound too. In other words, the sheet music is wrong. A public domain midi or ogg version of the song would be useful is someone has the resources to create and/or host. Aethandor ( talk) 09:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
In fact as I look more closely at the tune, the fourth note (D) should be an F, the the twelth note (D) should be an F, the fourth note on the second line (D) should be an F, plus the third note fro the end as previously mentioned. The tune portrayed by the music notation shown is therefore very incorrect. I move that the sheet music should therefore be removed, and replaced as soon as possible with an example that is correct in one of many forms (sheet music, ogg, midi, wav) Aethandor ( talk) 09:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I know what you mean. I have created a new image file with a slightly different version of the tune, incorporating the first change I suggested here but not the later ones and have used it to replace the original image. I suspect that the tune varies slightly depending upon the person singing it and which verse is being sung. I have created a couple of midi files sounding the melody in the original listed form plus the two versions I have suggested, and if I can find a location to store them online and link to them I'm place them in the public domain and link to them here so it can be possible to hear the tune being played. Aethandor ( talk) 14:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I know what you mean now, it's actually a 'C' but I left it out because it's an extra note which is sung to make the syllables of the lyrics fit the tune for that verse, but it doesn't apply for every verse. If you have a listen to the midi file which I've linked to, does it sound correct to you ? The midi file plays the tune as shown in the image file of the sheet music.
By way of comparison, the tune as it would sound if one were to play the music as written in the previous image would sound as
http://hansolo.f-sw.com/midi_pd/popgoesweasel_written.mid.
Aethandor (
talk) 20:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Image:Pop Goes the Weasel melody.PNG is sourced but has no fair-use rationale for Pop Goes the Weasel. Hyacinth ( talk) 23:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I remember a different melody for the verse which starts "Up and down the City Road." It's a higher melody starting on the C above middle C, and is missing from both the displayed tune and the sound clip. Difrankel ( talk) 18:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Presumably the versions in which the cobbler's bench is replaced by the mulberry bush are due to cross-contamination with Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush? — Hieronymus Illinensis ( talk) 22:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
The (UK) 2nd verse I knew as a child was
And I was told it related to 2 pubs near Fleet Street and the profligacy of the local journalists. A nice story for which I know no referents, sadly, although it might fit better with the 'City Road' verse.
Sorry, more amusement value than actual use. ;) -- 94.212.2.245 ( talk) 09:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I just added the version I learned as a child in Ireland:
Sorry I have no citation to support it, so someone may delete it, but at least it is interesting because the scene is set in the tailor's shop, complete with needle and weasel. Another thing: I was taught a version where the first four notes were the same. I notice that in the here, the first two notes are the same, and the following two notes are above them. Interesting. -- 71.208.51.129 ( talk) 19:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
The tune to Nancy Dawson, from the mid 1700's, is often quoted as being the tune leading to Pop Goes the Weasel. Of course, no music is original so who knows where that was ripped off from.
I have collected a lot of information about and studied these lyrics for well over 5 years now. The following is 3/4 pure results of my research, and 1/4 logical deduction and fully open to input and comment, Please:
One relatively recent form of the lyrics (believed to be from the 1850's) go as follows:
Half a pound of tuppenny rice, Half a pound of treacle. Mix it up and make it nice, Pop! goes the weasel.
A penny for a spool of thread, A penny for a needle That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.
Up and down the City Road, In and out the Eagle, That's the way the money goes, Pop! goes the weasel.
One common explanation of the meaning invokes the use of cockney slang claiming that "pop goes the weasel" refers to "pawning one's coat ("weasel" -> "weasel and stoat" -> nowadays means "coat"))"
However, I believe the meaning is somewhat different, yet still cockney slang. "Pop", in this case probably simply means "pop" (as in "oops, it's all gone... shot, blown". Rather than "COAT", however, I believe that one meaning for the cockney slang for "weasel" in older days (sorry no specific reference available as yet - still searching) referred to a denomination of money (as a great many cockney slang, especially those referring to animals, did then and still do to this day) and actually refers to the, now obsolete, currency the "GROAT". By the way "monkey" used in other verses of the song is coincidentally current cockney slang for a 500 pound note ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_slang) ... coincidence? The original English "groat" was a silver coin worth roughly 4 pence originally (and various other values later as it was depreciated). I am, among other things an avid collector of old coinage.
If you add up the values mentioned in the first two versus of this commonly published version of the song you come out with a total of 4 pennies which amazingly enough, equals 1 groat for the first two verses. In the era of tupenny rice (meaning rice selling for 2 pennies per pound, or 1 penny per 1/2 pound) 1/2 lb of treacle (a sugary syrup) also generally sold for a penny, as I researched. Note (importantly): the lyrics do NOT say, "that's the way the money goes" after the FIRST verse, only after the second. Therefore these two versus were meant to go together (versus the third verse, which DOES say "that's the way the money goes" and explained further below)
The groat was originally created in the 1300's as a silver coin worth 4 pennies. It was abandoned in the mid-1600's. However... it was newly reissued in 1835 and used as late as 1890 (according to Brewer's 1870 Dictionary of Phrase and Fable - late 1800s revised edition - "the modern groat was introduced in 1835, and withdrawn in 1887" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_Dictionary_of_Phrase_and_Fable).
Cockney slang is generally believed to have originated in the 1840's shortly before the reported origin of the above referenced version of the song. The groat at that time had just recently been revived in 1835, thus logically being still quite popular in the current vernacular. It all logically fits! In this context, the coat-pawning, based on today's contemporary slang is arguably logically more of a reach than this explanation.
The additional "Eagle" verse (if truly used at the same time) seems to fit quite nicely as referring to spending ones money as well, in a different way. If you look at the words again closely, with respect to the the above information it all fits perfectly as a commentary that you can either spend your money responsibly "eating modestly and maintaining ones clothing appearance" or "blowing ones earnings solely at the Eagle" (and starving as a shoddy bum). Either way it's all gone.
Based purely on my own personal reading of the various verse origins data, I would strongly suggest that the Eagle verse was an independent satirical, parody stage performance version with modified lyrics of the then popular tune, much like a modern day "Weird Al" spoof. These were quite common then as well.
I can provide more citations concerning prices, dates, etc. Or they may be left as an exercise for the page manager and reader.
Cheers!
Mike M.
MikePCAP ( talk) 10:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)mikepcap
OK - it's original research, but what about truth! I refer you to
Which is an 1854 Broadside ballad entitled 'Down By The Dark Arches' [under the railway]. Observe verse 5 in which the narrator is assaulted by a ruffian 'with black eye and stick' who precedes the attack by announcing 'Pop goes the Weasel'. This surely indicates the phrase was understood at that time to presage violence (with a stick?) Perhaps the Weasel was the stick? and the 'Pop' was what it did to your head?
Or more generally perhaps 'an explosion of activity'? (weasels being very active creatures).
109.144.254.80 ( talk) 21:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
All,
My family are Londoners back to the 1840s and seem quite attentive to family traditions (i.e., they are actively interested in things like the meaning of this song). No guarantee of anything, obviously, but anyway I asked my folks what "the weasel" was. They said it is what the rent money was called in their family, stretching back as far as anyone could remember. So they presumed that was what the song was talking about. Seems to fit with the theme of money being spent as quick as you have it - some cheap rice, some treacle, waste some money down the pub, pop goes the weasel.
Cheers
Mike Knights — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.195.24.98 ( talk) 17:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Grover cleveland ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
A contributor removed info from « Pop recordings » section because it was unsourced and decided it was trivial. I've moved these here to preserve the work in the hope someone will want to source the more important ones (ie by major artists or chart success) and include it again.
JeanPaulGRingault ( talk) 11:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Rublamb ( talk) 19:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC) Rublamb ( talk) 16:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article because it lacks a source:
A standard modern Canadian version goes: "All around the Cottage about, the monkey chased the weasel, the monkey thought it was all a big/good joke, Pop! Goes the weasel." Rublamb ( talk) 17:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Like a skunk, when threatened, weasels will emit a foul smelling spray. 'The monkey thought [the chase] was all in fun; Pop goes the weasel!' 184.151.37.20 ( talk) 21:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)