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(transplanted from Sssoul's talk page) Hi. In a recent removal of some unsourced material from this article you also undid a minor change of mine which preceded it, which suggested that the sourced given was suggested that pop music as a genre is usually opposed to rock music, not rock and roll, which was my understanding of the phrase at the citation: "Early Pop/Rock emerged in the late '50s, as the initial rock & roll craze began to die down, and a lighter, smoother (but still similar) alternative to rock was needed". Not to debate this at the moment, but was that change deliberate or just caught up in the other reversions? If deliberate I will post something on the talk page so that we can discuss it. Thanks.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 13:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Sadly its all a bit more complicated than I thought at first. The thrust of my original suggestion was that rock and roll (not rock) should be in the info box, as it is one of the sources. I would agree with you, rock isnt really used, as far as I know at the moment, until about 1967. So damn it the little change I was arguing for wont quite make sense, because of the 1950s bit. Then after a little research I find that the pop/rock opposition is more a British thing than American. So I suggest we leave it as it is for the moment and I will do a little more research to try to get these dates and terms pinned down and to come up with a form of words which is accuate, clear and concise - which can then be discussed.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 07:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I think alternative rock and roll would just go in rock music. Asdfjkl1235 ( talk) 02:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
i'm not the one who added that "although there are notable exceptions" to this section, but i sympathize strongly with it. although it's thoroughly referenced, that section includes some very judgemental-sounding statements, and even if they're some musicologists' POV they are (apparently, as now phrased) POV. also, some of those statements could apply to "lame music of *any* genre" and not this genre in particular. so could we discuss balancing this section a bit? Sssoul ( talk) 05:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i realize these are not uncommon assessments of pop music, but they are still assessments, not objective characteristics of the genre. some inverted commas might help some, especially if we could leave out the bits that don't apply to pop per se, but i think it would be better for the article to leave the value judgements out until we're ready to expand them into a full-fledged and balanced section about critical views of the genre. Sssoul ( talk) 07:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) smile: peace, okay? the section is purely hypothetical at this point, and what i'm picturing is very likely something quite different from what you imagine i'm picturing. meanwhile the bit presenting Frith's POV needs to be balanced with other POVs, and i doubt the "characteristics" section is the appropriate place to do that. for now could it at least be moved to below the paragraph describing typical song structures? thanks Sssoul ( talk) 10:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I see some quotation marks have been added, but some of Sssoul's concerns about the judgmental tone still don't seem to have been adequately addressed, not even by his own text.
Stating that musicologists "often" identify pop music as having certain characteristics, lowbrow or otherwise, sounds weasel-wordish to me, trying to make it sound like there's a tendency where they may be none. Do the two sources cited actually say that lots of musicologists say these things, or is it just the authors of those works (Frith et. al and Aldershot) who are saying it?
An emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities - what are formal artistic qualities? That means nothing to me, and I know a thing or two about music. Is it virtuosity? Originality (or perception thereof)? Defiance of tradition/formula? I'm wondering what's actually said in the cited works and whether this statement could better summarize what kinds of non-craftsmanship-y things are missing from pop music. And as was pointed out, is this kind of thing really unique to pop music, or is it more a feature of all commecially-driven music?
Harmony in pop music is often "that of classical European tonality, only more simple-minded." - if the point here is to say that pop music uses classical European tonality but eschews harmonic complexity, then just say so. Keep the reference, but don't use the disparaging quote. Whether a simple harmony is simple-minded is a matter of opinion.
I suggest trying to work on this section a bit more to get rid of the remaining bits of POV. Thanks for listening. — mjb ( talk) 10:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed a lack of mention in Characteristics of pop mainly having vocals. Being a person who prefers music without vocals, this stands out as one common quality of pop music. 72.48.75.131 ( talk) 19:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
discussion transplanted to Talk: Manufactured pop - thanks for keeping it there Sssoul ( talk) 09:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to add a list of the top-selling pop performers. As the article is set up currently, it does not give a single name of any performers. I imagine this is because if you allow an editor to list, say, ABBA, next thing someone wants to add in another pop group, then another, all with glowing Original Research / POV statements about how such-and-such group is "widely viewed as the most influential pop group in the world". This is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a table of the top-selling pop artists, as determined by third-party sources. Then the reader who wants to know "What are the top-selling pop groups?" can look at the list and say "ABBA, Celine Dion, Madonna, etc". .....This is not just a random, unsorted list of indiscriminate names. It is encyclopedic, because there is a criteria (top sales) and it is verifiable. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 18:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I am changing my proposal from a list to a paragraph on notable pop music performers and groups (as set out in reputable, third party sources). The goal of having an article on a style of music--pop music-- that does not mention even the most notable performers and groups (as set out in reputable, mainstream sources) seems to be at odds with the approach used in other Wikipedia articles on music. ................The rock music article describles the contributions of 100s of bands and singers; in the pop punk section of the rock music article, for example, we learn about how the approach used by The Buzzcocks and The Clash was taken up by Rancid, [[ Weezer and Greenday, and then by a second generation of bands, including Blink-182, Good Charlotte, and Simple Plan............................In the article on Blues, the section on Chicago blues tells about the contributions of Muddy Waters, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller), Willie Dixon, and late-1950s performers like Buddy Guy and Otis Rush...................The article on Jazz uses 100s of examples of performers and bands to tell the history of jazz. In just the jazz fusion section alone, we learn about the impact of Miles Davis, the groups his "alumni" went on to found ( Weather Report and Mahavishnu Orchestra), and notable performers, including keyboardists Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, vibraphonist Gary Burton, drummer Tony Williams, violinist Jean-Luc Ponty, guitarists Larry Coryell, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin and Frank Zappa, saxophonist Wayne Shorter, and bassists Jaco Pastorius and Stanley Clarke..........................In all of the examples cited, the authors of the articles could have been concerned that giving examples would lead to a tidal wave of additions, and tried to ban the addition of group names or performer's names. Perhaps there were problems with this; perhaps the various article sub-sections I have described (the pop punk section of the Rock music article; the Chicago blues section of the Blues article, etc) have at one time or another been swamped with the addition of every person who ever played pop punk or played a Chicago blues riff. However, it seems that Wikipedia editors have managed to whittle down these sections so that a small number of highly notable performers or groups are listed...............Just to show I understand this type of problem, though, I wish to relate my experience with the Bass guitar article. Years ago, there were attempts to have a section on "Notable bass players"....it would start with Paul McCartney, Sting, etc., and then in a few weeks, people would add in their uncle who once played in a bar band in the mid-1980s and their cousin Sam who is in a garage band. As the list grew until it became an indiscriminate list of every human who ever held an electric bass, a decision was taken to remove the list of names. I think that the problem could have been solved another way. First, don't use a bulletted list. In Wikipedia, bulleted lists of anything seem to be a beacon for attracting random, indiscriminiate information. If we had used prose, it would have made it harder for people to add names, because it's not just as simple as adding a bullet with your uncle Bob's name. Second, we should have required a reference to a reputable, third-party (i.e., not uncle Bob's own MySpace page on his band) source which clearly states that the individual made a major contribution to electric bass playing. Third, we should have come to an agreement on how long the section was going to be (re: the "undue weight" rule in Wikipedia). That acts as a brake on uncontrolled growth......................................Moving beyond music articles, I wish to point out that it is normal practice in articles on anything to give examples. If there is an article about "x" category or type of thing, there are usually examples of "x". Let us look at the article on Sports cars, which discusses Porsche, Lamborghini, and other brands of sports cars. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 10:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I this article is about pop music. I added an image of a pop music singer from ABBA, a group which a third-party source calls the most successful pop group of the 1970s. WP:Images says that images must be pertinent to the article. The article is about pop music. The photo is of a singer from one of the most successful pop groups of the 1970s. It seems that this picture passes muster. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 02:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi everyone, for our discussion on consensus regarding this article, I thought it might be helpful to cut and paste some information from the policy pages:
Extended content ... and/or see
WP:Consensus for full version
|
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"Level of consensus Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy does not apply to articles within its scope, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right. In the case of policies and guidelines, Wikipedia expects a higher standard of participation and consensus than on other pages. In any case, silence can imply consent only if there is adequate exposure to the community. Consensus can change Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable. Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for accepting or rejecting proposals or actions. While past "extensive discussions" can guide editors on what influenced a past consensus, editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits, and determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed. Wikipedia remains flexible because new people may bring fresh ideas, growing may evolve new needs, people may change their minds over time when new things come up, and we may find a better way to do things. A representative group might make a decision on behalf of the community as a whole. More often, people document changes to existing procedures at some arbitrary time after the fact. But in all these cases, nothing is permanently fixed. The world changes, and the wiki must change with it. It is reasonable and indeed often desirable to make further changes to things at a later date, even if the last change was years ago." OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 03:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC) |
Hi, I have come upon a potential compromise: setting a very high bar for the inclusion of performers or bands in this article. I propose that performer or band names can only be included if "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" state that a performer or band has had a major impact or role in pop music. Citing WP:V, "The most reliable sources are usually peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As well, we could use the rule that "Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them". OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 03:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
(Coming over from invite at WikiProject Music) ... My first inclination was to agree with Sssoul, as I can understand the potential for fancruft. But in looking at the present state of the article, compared to how it was up to February 13 when the edits under discussion began, I think it has improved and looks more concise with the addition of citations from textbooks on music in the Terminology section. I don't think it would be helpful to further edit these citations to remove the names of artists.
However, this section, and the names mentioned, all have to do with the origins of pop music as identified by various writers. I don't see how a mention of ABBA would fit in to the origins. To list present-day or all-time top pop artists, would create the problems that Sssoul has described.
So I wonder if a compromise could be reached, where we would allow the use of names that are mentioned in scholarly, cited quotes about the history of pop music, but disallow a list of top pop people, based on the view that even coming from reliable sources, these lists would reflect bias. An expert might pick examples he thinks would be familiar to his readers, rather than those that are most important to pop music's history and development. To pick up on another point Sssoul made about the wide range of types of pop music, it's even bigger than that, when you consider international and non-Western cultures. There were pop music scenes in India and Japan in the mid 20th century, and a list of artists would have to include those as well, making a very large list that may not be helpful, and even the experts may avoid mentioning non-Western names that should be included on such a list. -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 17:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Bands should only be mentioned in the prose as they affect the development and history of the genre. Genre articles should not be here to list bands that are within the genre. The focus of the article is the genre not the bands. Ridernyc ( talk) 20:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I am having a job accounting for the article's thesis, twice repeated, that "pop developed as a softer alternative to rock'n'roll". The cited works do not all appear to back this; the allmusic one in particular refers to "early pop-rock", implying the identity of the two. Most of the given quotations likewise fail to back this and even seem to contradict it. Perhaps the Frith book says this? As things stand it looks like OR. Is it not the case that "pop" bands like the Beatles played "rock'n'roll" songs and that it was only in the late sixties that the marketing men introduced the term "rock" as a supposedly "advanced" form of pop - even as "rock" groups like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple appeared in the "pop" charts - and that it has somehow since been retrospectively agreed among goodness-knows-who that "rock'n'roll", as the true forerunner of "rock", differed from and was opposed to 50s "pop"? Could we at least have a valid citation for this extraordinary bit of revisionist snobbery? Redheylin ( talk) 05:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I think the fact that the intro says something totally different then the first paragraph of the article is a major problem. Things to need to be rewritten to show that the term had been around and then latter was applied to certain form of popular music. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Seems to be on the verge of tipping into some POV issues, depending largely on one source and using synthesis with other sources. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
(un-indent)Hi, WP:RV suggests that we should "Revert vandalism and other abusive edits upon sight but revert a good faith edit only as a last resort. A reversion can eliminate "good stuff," discourage other editors, and spark an edit war. So if you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, then try to improve it, if possible – reword rather than revert. Similarly, if only part of an edit is problematic then consider modifying only that part instead of reverting the whole edit – don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." I suggest that in blanking the section, you resolved your valid concerns (excessive reliance on the Steve Jones book) yet also removed pertinent, encyclopedic material, including very up-to-date information on pop music criticism from Slate magazine and the New York Sun. I find it interesting that by reverting the "music critics" section, a section in which almost every sentence had a reference, this contribution got the exact same treatment as the IP vandal who deleted the article, and typed "I hate skool": reversion. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 02:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) if you check out
Talk:Pop music/Archive 2#Requested move, an attempt was made to rename the article "pop music (genre)", but that was nixed by denizens of the
WP:Move policy pages - i don't know why.
it's excellent that several editors have joined this discussion - thank you - because reaching a consensus is not just a matter of a single individual persisting in implementing their own vision of the article while others are saying the changes need to be discussed first.
nor is it a question of one person saying the same thing over and over, which is why i've been trying to stay quiet (or anyway quiet-ish!) to see what other editors think. but for the record: i don't see any consensus for declaring this an "umbrella" article - maybe that is an idea that might gain consensus, but it needs to be discussed and consensus reached before the changes are implemented.
Ridernyc's idea of making "Pop music as a genre" a section of
Popular music instead of a stand-alone article is interesting, but i'm not sure it's practical: are there reasons to treat the pop music genre differently from other genres that fall into the
Popular music category?
Sssoul (
talk)
09:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I think we should start discussing merging Traditional pop music to this article. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I think this version of the [1] while having issues is much better then the current state of the article which is largely based on one source and one POV. Ridernyc ( talk) 05:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Done. Ridernyc ( talk) 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to propose my first change. It is not controversial; it is to add the bullet that much pop music uses dance rhythms or dance beats. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Hi, The proposed new bullet is in User talk:OnBeyondZebrax/sandbox. It is bolded to make it easier to find. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 01:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi, I would like to propose the addition of a one-sentence quote from the Grove Music Encyclopedia article on pop music: "The term pop music originated in Britain in the mid-1950s as a description for Rock and roll and the new youth music styles that it influenced...". The proposed new sentence is in User talk:OnBeyondZebrax/sandbox. It is bolded to make it easier to find. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 10:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, It has been suggested that I make changes directly in the article, and then explain them here, and allow time for commnents. So I have followed this proposal. The recent change was the addition of a quote from Grove Music Online which states that the term "pop music" arose to describe Rock and roll in the 1950s. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 13:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Abbreviation for ‘popular’. Earlier meaning meant concerts appealing to a wide audience. The London Popular Concerts were founded by Benedict in 1858 and continued until 1898 . Since the late 1950s, however, pop has had the special meaning of non‐classical mus., usually in the form of songs, perf. by such artists as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Abba, etc. Thus ‘pop groups’ (performers of pop, usually singer(s), guitars, drums, sometimes sophisticated elec. effects), and ‘pop festivals’. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This Pop music page is highly stilted and incorrect. Why is there no mention of Pop music performers? I don't agree that pop music is 'mainly' for young people or women! There are is a great deal of 'subjective opinions' on this page, rather than facts. PKimage ( talk) 00:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand why the best known and top selling pop performers of the past 50 years cannot be mentioned - such as Elton John, The Beatles, The Bee Gees, Madonna for example. Could there not be a criterion for adding a few pop stars - such as their number of sales worldwide have to be over a certain figure?
I attend many concerts in Scotland of different genres, including pop concerts - and at many the average age attending is over 50! Most of Elton John's fans are well into middle age! You say this article is well sourced, yet even in science nothing is ever 'proved'. This pop music page is rather dull and simply not very interesting to read compared to the page on Popular music for instance. PKimage ( talk) 12:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.239.237 ( talk)
Currently the intro acknowledges that pop music is often oriented towards a youth market. It's also plainly clear from demographic data and common observation that it's heavily geared towards females. This is relatively significant, and thus I encourage the intro to be updated to mention this. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 12:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
20x shorter than comparative rock, metal, rap articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fleaman5000 ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
same subject, significant overlap. Pop music IS popular music, completely illogical to have two articles when a combination of the two in a single entry would make for a more informative overview. Semitransgenic talk. 09:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Reads: Musicologists often identify the following characteristics as typical of the pop music genre:
We see a list of items that we are told represents characteristics that musicologists typically associate with pop music, but this list offers the observations of two sources, and it is not even clear that they both agree on the five stated points. We have two specific musicologists here, not "musicologists" more generally. We would also need a source to support an assertion that suggest that musicologists universally identify the five characteristic as being typical of the pop music genre. Semitransgenic talk. 00:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
For now, I added a clip of a Katy Perry song that I felt was generic enough to typify the craftsmanship of pop music. This was not an attempt to glorify the artist above others, or to insult her in any way. Personally, I do not care for Ms. Hudson's music. I feel this clip greatly benefits the article and vehemently disagree that using a " snow ball argument" or citing slippery slope possibilities is a legitimate rationale for its exclusion -- or the exclusion of any sample for that matter. " Part of Me" employs electronic synths and hooks typical for this genre of music. It also explores many cross-genres, which the text of the article claims is common. Specifically, the song employs elements of electronica, disco, and rock-influenced pop music. I think that instead of having one clip from a modern pop song, we also include a clip of an older pop song (perhaps from the 70s or 80s) to help illustrate that the craft has not changed much and that the formula seems to still be working. Comments are welcome. I would to involve myself in another edit-war, simply because someone wants to avoid " fangirls" from adding a million clips of their faves. I think that harms the encyclopedia more than it benefits it.-- Thevampireashlee ( talk) 23:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Considering how popular hip hop/rap/r&b is today, and how both hip hop and pop cross over into each other's genres, shouldn't hip hop be one of the biggest influences (if not biggest) of the modern pop of today? I mean it seems most pop stars today use a great amount of hip hop's style of beats and techno sounds, and many do full hip hop on a lot of songs in their albums. Many hip hop artists also seem to now include a great amount of pop in their albums and are using less rap. -- bhegeta ( talk) 01:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.40.249 ( talk)
I'm not sure of the best place to ask this, but I've started a discussion over at Template_talk:Infobox_song, which essentially asks whether tempo and key should have their own parameters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.220.114 ( talk) 18:23, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this needs to be explained. The article does not say a word about how it differs from or resembles traditional popular music, and many other styles in the infobox. 2A01:E35:2F0C:F510:34DE:4D15:A3FD:A5FB ( talk) 17:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Reading this article and the talk page it sounds to me like this article is full of original research. For starters is it even a genre? Googling it throws me back to Wikipedia or its copy past articles. The only reference on it is an article of About.com without even referring to pop music as a genre of its own. The article itself only refers as a genre of its own what it calls Pure Pop or Power Pop, but implicitly refutes the idea of a genre of Pop music in general. Can we clean out this please?! Learningnave ( talk) 22:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree. At last someone notices how unclear is the classification of pop. If pop is genre like jazz, funk, rock or blues why are there no typical instruments section or description of basic rhythms? The way pop is described, it seems that umbrella term would be much more appropriate than genre similar to Art music article.
Also I agree that styles like teen pop, europop, sunshine pop etc. are real sub genres, but maybe not directly under pop. As you can already see on their respective pages, general term pop is mentioned rarely under stylistic origins; one of reasons for this is that most of mentioned pop characteristics are very vague and only loosely related to music stylistic characteristics. For example compare pop- an emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities with funk - A great deal of funk is rhythmically based on a two-celled onbeat/offbeat structure, which originated in sub-Saharan African music traditions. Pop article talks mostly about promotional methods, social/commercial goals, purpose,format etc. while other genre articles also talk a lot about specific musical elements, performance approach, lyrical techniques etc. I think it would be ok to add that some people consider pop as genre, but definition umbrella term would be more appropriate. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.237.151.212 (
talk)
17:24, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I think that section should be removed from the infobox. The problem is that the term "pop music" covers such a wide range that any listing of instruments is inevitably going to be partial and misleading. Before the mid-1950s, the main instrumentation was often orchestral, or big band. Then, there was a long rock-influenced period when guitar, bass, drums and often keyboards predominated. Now, as edits like this suggest, much of the instrumentation is often electronic. We cannot hope to cover all that and more in a single list in the infobox. I'll delete the section to hopefully stop the current dispute, but thoughts here are welcome. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
(transplanted from Sssoul's talk page) Hi. In a recent removal of some unsourced material from this article you also undid a minor change of mine which preceded it, which suggested that the sourced given was suggested that pop music as a genre is usually opposed to rock music, not rock and roll, which was my understanding of the phrase at the citation: "Early Pop/Rock emerged in the late '50s, as the initial rock & roll craze began to die down, and a lighter, smoother (but still similar) alternative to rock was needed". Not to debate this at the moment, but was that change deliberate or just caught up in the other reversions? If deliberate I will post something on the talk page so that we can discuss it. Thanks.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 13:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Sadly its all a bit more complicated than I thought at first. The thrust of my original suggestion was that rock and roll (not rock) should be in the info box, as it is one of the sources. I would agree with you, rock isnt really used, as far as I know at the moment, until about 1967. So damn it the little change I was arguing for wont quite make sense, because of the 1950s bit. Then after a little research I find that the pop/rock opposition is more a British thing than American. So I suggest we leave it as it is for the moment and I will do a little more research to try to get these dates and terms pinned down and to come up with a form of words which is accuate, clear and concise - which can then be discussed.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 07:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I think alternative rock and roll would just go in rock music. Asdfjkl1235 ( talk) 02:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
i'm not the one who added that "although there are notable exceptions" to this section, but i sympathize strongly with it. although it's thoroughly referenced, that section includes some very judgemental-sounding statements, and even if they're some musicologists' POV they are (apparently, as now phrased) POV. also, some of those statements could apply to "lame music of *any* genre" and not this genre in particular. so could we discuss balancing this section a bit? Sssoul ( talk) 05:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i realize these are not uncommon assessments of pop music, but they are still assessments, not objective characteristics of the genre. some inverted commas might help some, especially if we could leave out the bits that don't apply to pop per se, but i think it would be better for the article to leave the value judgements out until we're ready to expand them into a full-fledged and balanced section about critical views of the genre. Sssoul ( talk) 07:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) smile: peace, okay? the section is purely hypothetical at this point, and what i'm picturing is very likely something quite different from what you imagine i'm picturing. meanwhile the bit presenting Frith's POV needs to be balanced with other POVs, and i doubt the "characteristics" section is the appropriate place to do that. for now could it at least be moved to below the paragraph describing typical song structures? thanks Sssoul ( talk) 10:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I see some quotation marks have been added, but some of Sssoul's concerns about the judgmental tone still don't seem to have been adequately addressed, not even by his own text.
Stating that musicologists "often" identify pop music as having certain characteristics, lowbrow or otherwise, sounds weasel-wordish to me, trying to make it sound like there's a tendency where they may be none. Do the two sources cited actually say that lots of musicologists say these things, or is it just the authors of those works (Frith et. al and Aldershot) who are saying it?
An emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities - what are formal artistic qualities? That means nothing to me, and I know a thing or two about music. Is it virtuosity? Originality (or perception thereof)? Defiance of tradition/formula? I'm wondering what's actually said in the cited works and whether this statement could better summarize what kinds of non-craftsmanship-y things are missing from pop music. And as was pointed out, is this kind of thing really unique to pop music, or is it more a feature of all commecially-driven music?
Harmony in pop music is often "that of classical European tonality, only more simple-minded." - if the point here is to say that pop music uses classical European tonality but eschews harmonic complexity, then just say so. Keep the reference, but don't use the disparaging quote. Whether a simple harmony is simple-minded is a matter of opinion.
I suggest trying to work on this section a bit more to get rid of the remaining bits of POV. Thanks for listening. — mjb ( talk) 10:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I noticed a lack of mention in Characteristics of pop mainly having vocals. Being a person who prefers music without vocals, this stands out as one common quality of pop music. 72.48.75.131 ( talk) 19:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
discussion transplanted to Talk: Manufactured pop - thanks for keeping it there Sssoul ( talk) 09:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to add a list of the top-selling pop performers. As the article is set up currently, it does not give a single name of any performers. I imagine this is because if you allow an editor to list, say, ABBA, next thing someone wants to add in another pop group, then another, all with glowing Original Research / POV statements about how such-and-such group is "widely viewed as the most influential pop group in the world". This is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a table of the top-selling pop artists, as determined by third-party sources. Then the reader who wants to know "What are the top-selling pop groups?" can look at the list and say "ABBA, Celine Dion, Madonna, etc". .....This is not just a random, unsorted list of indiscriminate names. It is encyclopedic, because there is a criteria (top sales) and it is verifiable. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 18:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I am changing my proposal from a list to a paragraph on notable pop music performers and groups (as set out in reputable, third party sources). The goal of having an article on a style of music--pop music-- that does not mention even the most notable performers and groups (as set out in reputable, mainstream sources) seems to be at odds with the approach used in other Wikipedia articles on music. ................The rock music article describles the contributions of 100s of bands and singers; in the pop punk section of the rock music article, for example, we learn about how the approach used by The Buzzcocks and The Clash was taken up by Rancid, [[ Weezer and Greenday, and then by a second generation of bands, including Blink-182, Good Charlotte, and Simple Plan............................In the article on Blues, the section on Chicago blues tells about the contributions of Muddy Waters, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller), Willie Dixon, and late-1950s performers like Buddy Guy and Otis Rush...................The article on Jazz uses 100s of examples of performers and bands to tell the history of jazz. In just the jazz fusion section alone, we learn about the impact of Miles Davis, the groups his "alumni" went on to found ( Weather Report and Mahavishnu Orchestra), and notable performers, including keyboardists Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, vibraphonist Gary Burton, drummer Tony Williams, violinist Jean-Luc Ponty, guitarists Larry Coryell, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin and Frank Zappa, saxophonist Wayne Shorter, and bassists Jaco Pastorius and Stanley Clarke..........................In all of the examples cited, the authors of the articles could have been concerned that giving examples would lead to a tidal wave of additions, and tried to ban the addition of group names or performer's names. Perhaps there were problems with this; perhaps the various article sub-sections I have described (the pop punk section of the Rock music article; the Chicago blues section of the Blues article, etc) have at one time or another been swamped with the addition of every person who ever played pop punk or played a Chicago blues riff. However, it seems that Wikipedia editors have managed to whittle down these sections so that a small number of highly notable performers or groups are listed...............Just to show I understand this type of problem, though, I wish to relate my experience with the Bass guitar article. Years ago, there were attempts to have a section on "Notable bass players"....it would start with Paul McCartney, Sting, etc., and then in a few weeks, people would add in their uncle who once played in a bar band in the mid-1980s and their cousin Sam who is in a garage band. As the list grew until it became an indiscriminate list of every human who ever held an electric bass, a decision was taken to remove the list of names. I think that the problem could have been solved another way. First, don't use a bulletted list. In Wikipedia, bulleted lists of anything seem to be a beacon for attracting random, indiscriminiate information. If we had used prose, it would have made it harder for people to add names, because it's not just as simple as adding a bullet with your uncle Bob's name. Second, we should have required a reference to a reputable, third-party (i.e., not uncle Bob's own MySpace page on his band) source which clearly states that the individual made a major contribution to electric bass playing. Third, we should have come to an agreement on how long the section was going to be (re: the "undue weight" rule in Wikipedia). That acts as a brake on uncontrolled growth......................................Moving beyond music articles, I wish to point out that it is normal practice in articles on anything to give examples. If there is an article about "x" category or type of thing, there are usually examples of "x". Let us look at the article on Sports cars, which discusses Porsche, Lamborghini, and other brands of sports cars. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 10:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I this article is about pop music. I added an image of a pop music singer from ABBA, a group which a third-party source calls the most successful pop group of the 1970s. WP:Images says that images must be pertinent to the article. The article is about pop music. The photo is of a singer from one of the most successful pop groups of the 1970s. It seems that this picture passes muster. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 02:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi everyone, for our discussion on consensus regarding this article, I thought it might be helpful to cut and paste some information from the policy pages:
Extended content ... and/or see
WP:Consensus for full version
|
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"Level of consensus Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy does not apply to articles within its scope, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right. In the case of policies and guidelines, Wikipedia expects a higher standard of participation and consensus than on other pages. In any case, silence can imply consent only if there is adequate exposure to the community. Consensus can change Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable. Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for accepting or rejecting proposals or actions. While past "extensive discussions" can guide editors on what influenced a past consensus, editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits, and determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed. Wikipedia remains flexible because new people may bring fresh ideas, growing may evolve new needs, people may change their minds over time when new things come up, and we may find a better way to do things. A representative group might make a decision on behalf of the community as a whole. More often, people document changes to existing procedures at some arbitrary time after the fact. But in all these cases, nothing is permanently fixed. The world changes, and the wiki must change with it. It is reasonable and indeed often desirable to make further changes to things at a later date, even if the last change was years ago." OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 03:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC) |
Hi, I have come upon a potential compromise: setting a very high bar for the inclusion of performers or bands in this article. I propose that performer or band names can only be included if "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" state that a performer or band has had a major impact or role in pop music. Citing WP:V, "The most reliable sources are usually peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As well, we could use the rule that "Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them". OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 03:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
(Coming over from invite at WikiProject Music) ... My first inclination was to agree with Sssoul, as I can understand the potential for fancruft. But in looking at the present state of the article, compared to how it was up to February 13 when the edits under discussion began, I think it has improved and looks more concise with the addition of citations from textbooks on music in the Terminology section. I don't think it would be helpful to further edit these citations to remove the names of artists.
However, this section, and the names mentioned, all have to do with the origins of pop music as identified by various writers. I don't see how a mention of ABBA would fit in to the origins. To list present-day or all-time top pop artists, would create the problems that Sssoul has described.
So I wonder if a compromise could be reached, where we would allow the use of names that are mentioned in scholarly, cited quotes about the history of pop music, but disallow a list of top pop people, based on the view that even coming from reliable sources, these lists would reflect bias. An expert might pick examples he thinks would be familiar to his readers, rather than those that are most important to pop music's history and development. To pick up on another point Sssoul made about the wide range of types of pop music, it's even bigger than that, when you consider international and non-Western cultures. There were pop music scenes in India and Japan in the mid 20th century, and a list of artists would have to include those as well, making a very large list that may not be helpful, and even the experts may avoid mentioning non-Western names that should be included on such a list. -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 17:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Bands should only be mentioned in the prose as they affect the development and history of the genre. Genre articles should not be here to list bands that are within the genre. The focus of the article is the genre not the bands. Ridernyc ( talk) 20:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I am having a job accounting for the article's thesis, twice repeated, that "pop developed as a softer alternative to rock'n'roll". The cited works do not all appear to back this; the allmusic one in particular refers to "early pop-rock", implying the identity of the two. Most of the given quotations likewise fail to back this and even seem to contradict it. Perhaps the Frith book says this? As things stand it looks like OR. Is it not the case that "pop" bands like the Beatles played "rock'n'roll" songs and that it was only in the late sixties that the marketing men introduced the term "rock" as a supposedly "advanced" form of pop - even as "rock" groups like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple appeared in the "pop" charts - and that it has somehow since been retrospectively agreed among goodness-knows-who that "rock'n'roll", as the true forerunner of "rock", differed from and was opposed to 50s "pop"? Could we at least have a valid citation for this extraordinary bit of revisionist snobbery? Redheylin ( talk) 05:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I think the fact that the intro says something totally different then the first paragraph of the article is a major problem. Things to need to be rewritten to show that the term had been around and then latter was applied to certain form of popular music. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Seems to be on the verge of tipping into some POV issues, depending largely on one source and using synthesis with other sources. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
(un-indent)Hi, WP:RV suggests that we should "Revert vandalism and other abusive edits upon sight but revert a good faith edit only as a last resort. A reversion can eliminate "good stuff," discourage other editors, and spark an edit war. So if you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, then try to improve it, if possible – reword rather than revert. Similarly, if only part of an edit is problematic then consider modifying only that part instead of reverting the whole edit – don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." I suggest that in blanking the section, you resolved your valid concerns (excessive reliance on the Steve Jones book) yet also removed pertinent, encyclopedic material, including very up-to-date information on pop music criticism from Slate magazine and the New York Sun. I find it interesting that by reverting the "music critics" section, a section in which almost every sentence had a reference, this contribution got the exact same treatment as the IP vandal who deleted the article, and typed "I hate skool": reversion. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 02:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) if you check out
Talk:Pop music/Archive 2#Requested move, an attempt was made to rename the article "pop music (genre)", but that was nixed by denizens of the
WP:Move policy pages - i don't know why.
it's excellent that several editors have joined this discussion - thank you - because reaching a consensus is not just a matter of a single individual persisting in implementing their own vision of the article while others are saying the changes need to be discussed first.
nor is it a question of one person saying the same thing over and over, which is why i've been trying to stay quiet (or anyway quiet-ish!) to see what other editors think. but for the record: i don't see any consensus for declaring this an "umbrella" article - maybe that is an idea that might gain consensus, but it needs to be discussed and consensus reached before the changes are implemented.
Ridernyc's idea of making "Pop music as a genre" a section of
Popular music instead of a stand-alone article is interesting, but i'm not sure it's practical: are there reasons to treat the pop music genre differently from other genres that fall into the
Popular music category?
Sssoul (
talk)
09:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I think we should start discussing merging Traditional pop music to this article. Ridernyc ( talk) 02:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I think this version of the [1] while having issues is much better then the current state of the article which is largely based on one source and one POV. Ridernyc ( talk) 05:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Done. Ridernyc ( talk) 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to propose my first change. It is not controversial; it is to add the bullet that much pop music uses dance rhythms or dance beats. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Hi, The proposed new bullet is in User talk:OnBeyondZebrax/sandbox. It is bolded to make it easier to find. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 01:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi, I would like to propose the addition of a one-sentence quote from the Grove Music Encyclopedia article on pop music: "The term pop music originated in Britain in the mid-1950s as a description for Rock and roll and the new youth music styles that it influenced...". The proposed new sentence is in User talk:OnBeyondZebrax/sandbox. It is bolded to make it easier to find. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 10:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi, It has been suggested that I make changes directly in the article, and then explain them here, and allow time for commnents. So I have followed this proposal. The recent change was the addition of a quote from Grove Music Online which states that the term "pop music" arose to describe Rock and roll in the 1950s. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 13:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Abbreviation for ‘popular’. Earlier meaning meant concerts appealing to a wide audience. The London Popular Concerts were founded by Benedict in 1858 and continued until 1898 . Since the late 1950s, however, pop has had the special meaning of non‐classical mus., usually in the form of songs, perf. by such artists as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Abba, etc. Thus ‘pop groups’ (performers of pop, usually singer(s), guitars, drums, sometimes sophisticated elec. effects), and ‘pop festivals’. OnBeyondZebrax ( talk) 23:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This Pop music page is highly stilted and incorrect. Why is there no mention of Pop music performers? I don't agree that pop music is 'mainly' for young people or women! There are is a great deal of 'subjective opinions' on this page, rather than facts. PKimage ( talk) 00:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand why the best known and top selling pop performers of the past 50 years cannot be mentioned - such as Elton John, The Beatles, The Bee Gees, Madonna for example. Could there not be a criterion for adding a few pop stars - such as their number of sales worldwide have to be over a certain figure?
I attend many concerts in Scotland of different genres, including pop concerts - and at many the average age attending is over 50! Most of Elton John's fans are well into middle age! You say this article is well sourced, yet even in science nothing is ever 'proved'. This pop music page is rather dull and simply not very interesting to read compared to the page on Popular music for instance. PKimage ( talk) 12:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.239.237 ( talk)
Currently the intro acknowledges that pop music is often oriented towards a youth market. It's also plainly clear from demographic data and common observation that it's heavily geared towards females. This is relatively significant, and thus I encourage the intro to be updated to mention this. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 12:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
20x shorter than comparative rock, metal, rap articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fleaman5000 ( talk • contribs) 11:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
same subject, significant overlap. Pop music IS popular music, completely illogical to have two articles when a combination of the two in a single entry would make for a more informative overview. Semitransgenic talk. 09:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Reads: Musicologists often identify the following characteristics as typical of the pop music genre:
We see a list of items that we are told represents characteristics that musicologists typically associate with pop music, but this list offers the observations of two sources, and it is not even clear that they both agree on the five stated points. We have two specific musicologists here, not "musicologists" more generally. We would also need a source to support an assertion that suggest that musicologists universally identify the five characteristic as being typical of the pop music genre. Semitransgenic talk. 00:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
For now, I added a clip of a Katy Perry song that I felt was generic enough to typify the craftsmanship of pop music. This was not an attempt to glorify the artist above others, or to insult her in any way. Personally, I do not care for Ms. Hudson's music. I feel this clip greatly benefits the article and vehemently disagree that using a " snow ball argument" or citing slippery slope possibilities is a legitimate rationale for its exclusion -- or the exclusion of any sample for that matter. " Part of Me" employs electronic synths and hooks typical for this genre of music. It also explores many cross-genres, which the text of the article claims is common. Specifically, the song employs elements of electronica, disco, and rock-influenced pop music. I think that instead of having one clip from a modern pop song, we also include a clip of an older pop song (perhaps from the 70s or 80s) to help illustrate that the craft has not changed much and that the formula seems to still be working. Comments are welcome. I would to involve myself in another edit-war, simply because someone wants to avoid " fangirls" from adding a million clips of their faves. I think that harms the encyclopedia more than it benefits it.-- Thevampireashlee ( talk) 23:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Considering how popular hip hop/rap/r&b is today, and how both hip hop and pop cross over into each other's genres, shouldn't hip hop be one of the biggest influences (if not biggest) of the modern pop of today? I mean it seems most pop stars today use a great amount of hip hop's style of beats and techno sounds, and many do full hip hop on a lot of songs in their albums. Many hip hop artists also seem to now include a great amount of pop in their albums and are using less rap. -- bhegeta ( talk) 01:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.40.249 ( talk)
I'm not sure of the best place to ask this, but I've started a discussion over at Template_talk:Infobox_song, which essentially asks whether tempo and key should have their own parameters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.220.114 ( talk) 18:23, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this needs to be explained. The article does not say a word about how it differs from or resembles traditional popular music, and many other styles in the infobox. 2A01:E35:2F0C:F510:34DE:4D15:A3FD:A5FB ( talk) 17:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Reading this article and the talk page it sounds to me like this article is full of original research. For starters is it even a genre? Googling it throws me back to Wikipedia or its copy past articles. The only reference on it is an article of About.com without even referring to pop music as a genre of its own. The article itself only refers as a genre of its own what it calls Pure Pop or Power Pop, but implicitly refutes the idea of a genre of Pop music in general. Can we clean out this please?! Learningnave ( talk) 22:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree. At last someone notices how unclear is the classification of pop. If pop is genre like jazz, funk, rock or blues why are there no typical instruments section or description of basic rhythms? The way pop is described, it seems that umbrella term would be much more appropriate than genre similar to Art music article.
Also I agree that styles like teen pop, europop, sunshine pop etc. are real sub genres, but maybe not directly under pop. As you can already see on their respective pages, general term pop is mentioned rarely under stylistic origins; one of reasons for this is that most of mentioned pop characteristics are very vague and only loosely related to music stylistic characteristics. For example compare pop- an emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities with funk - A great deal of funk is rhythmically based on a two-celled onbeat/offbeat structure, which originated in sub-Saharan African music traditions. Pop article talks mostly about promotional methods, social/commercial goals, purpose,format etc. while other genre articles also talk a lot about specific musical elements, performance approach, lyrical techniques etc. I think it would be ok to add that some people consider pop as genre, but definition umbrella term would be more appropriate. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.237.151.212 (
talk)
17:24, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I think that section should be removed from the infobox. The problem is that the term "pop music" covers such a wide range that any listing of instruments is inevitably going to be partial and misleading. Before the mid-1950s, the main instrumentation was often orchestral, or big band. Then, there was a long rock-influenced period when guitar, bass, drums and often keyboards predominated. Now, as edits like this suggest, much of the instrumentation is often electronic. We cannot hope to cover all that and more in a single list in the infobox. I'll delete the section to hopefully stop the current dispute, but thoughts here are welcome. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)