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This article was
copy edited by
Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 4 December 2018.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles
I believe the article is generally well-written, with appropriate coverage of the subject's main historical events. Generally complies with MoS guideline. Well-referenced with academic sources. No copyvio, OR or neutrality issues found. Citations are provided properly, I've spot-checked some of them and they do check out. Images are appropriate and tagged.
Specific
I do have specific feedback below, please take a look. Feel free to disagree but please explain the reason if you do so.
Native Christians captured Pons during a campaign: I think the preceding events (e.g. the fact that Pons was defeated by Bazwaj and had to flee) need to be mentioned first, so that the text flows more chronologically
"He united his inherited lands (that his father had held in fief of the kings of Jerusalem) with territories in the Principality of Antioch.": Can you rewrite this sentence so that it's clearer what it's trying to say? Does "unite" mean there was some legal/institutional consolidation? Or is it merely saying he expanded the territories he inherited from his father?
". Bertrand's legitimacy was dubious, however, because his parents were closely related": This is not obvious to me : why would his parents' relation make his legitimacy doubtful? Weren't marriages of close relatives common among European noble houses?
Can you include some geopolitical background to place the "Reign" part in context? E.g. where was the county of Tripoli? What were the main Crusader states when Pons took the throne? What were the main Muslim powers? What was the position of the Byzantine empire? The background will help understanding the parts that follow.
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you refer to other GAs or FAs which contain such a geopolitical background in articles dedicated to a monarch? I am afraid that the geopolitical position of the county could hardly be summarized.
Borsoka (
talk)
08:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Borsoka: For example, see the "Background" section in
Æthelflæd or
Muhammad I of Granada. They're both FAs, and your article is only aimed at GA status, so I guess yours doesn't have to be as in depth as those two. But IMO, even one paragraph of background would really help readers who are not previously familiar with this time and place.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
"after ordering his wife, Cecile of France, be engaged to Pons.": Maybe mention Cecile's birth year or age? Because her young age partly explains why she could just be ordered to marry another guy.
Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. Even if Cecile would have been more than 50, Tancred could have ordered her to marry Pons, because he was her husband.
@
Borsoka: IMO, the birth year or age would be useful regardless. It's often done when introducing family members in biographical article. My last sentence was an example illustrating how this could help provide context, but maybe I'm wrong so I'm sorry.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I did not find information about the date of her birth or about her age in books cited in the article or in other books in my library. Even Natasha R. Hodgson's Women, Crusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative fails to mention Cecilia's age, although she writes of Cecilia.
Borsoka (
talk)
01:58, 21 April 2019 (UTC)reply
was allegedly born in the late 1110s: why "allegedly"? Per
MOS:ALLEGED, if the intention is to introduce doubt, please mention the source of the doubt.
@
Borsoka: Thanks for your update, it looks really great. One sentence, however, seems odd: Unless Bohemond and Tancred, Raymond accepted the Byzantine Emperor ... Did you mean another word instead of unless?
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for your responses,
Borsoka, as well as your good work on the article. I've passed this article as GA. I hope my review has been useful.
06:49, 23 April 2019 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
This article was
copy edited by
Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 4 December 2018.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles
I believe the article is generally well-written, with appropriate coverage of the subject's main historical events. Generally complies with MoS guideline. Well-referenced with academic sources. No copyvio, OR or neutrality issues found. Citations are provided properly, I've spot-checked some of them and they do check out. Images are appropriate and tagged.
Specific
I do have specific feedback below, please take a look. Feel free to disagree but please explain the reason if you do so.
Native Christians captured Pons during a campaign: I think the preceding events (e.g. the fact that Pons was defeated by Bazwaj and had to flee) need to be mentioned first, so that the text flows more chronologically
"He united his inherited lands (that his father had held in fief of the kings of Jerusalem) with territories in the Principality of Antioch.": Can you rewrite this sentence so that it's clearer what it's trying to say? Does "unite" mean there was some legal/institutional consolidation? Or is it merely saying he expanded the territories he inherited from his father?
". Bertrand's legitimacy was dubious, however, because his parents were closely related": This is not obvious to me : why would his parents' relation make his legitimacy doubtful? Weren't marriages of close relatives common among European noble houses?
Can you include some geopolitical background to place the "Reign" part in context? E.g. where was the county of Tripoli? What were the main Crusader states when Pons took the throne? What were the main Muslim powers? What was the position of the Byzantine empire? The background will help understanding the parts that follow.
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you refer to other GAs or FAs which contain such a geopolitical background in articles dedicated to a monarch? I am afraid that the geopolitical position of the county could hardly be summarized.
Borsoka (
talk)
08:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Borsoka: For example, see the "Background" section in
Æthelflæd or
Muhammad I of Granada. They're both FAs, and your article is only aimed at GA status, so I guess yours doesn't have to be as in depth as those two. But IMO, even one paragraph of background would really help readers who are not previously familiar with this time and place.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
"after ordering his wife, Cecile of France, be engaged to Pons.": Maybe mention Cecile's birth year or age? Because her young age partly explains why she could just be ordered to marry another guy.
Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. Even if Cecile would have been more than 50, Tancred could have ordered her to marry Pons, because he was her husband.
@
Borsoka: IMO, the birth year or age would be useful regardless. It's often done when introducing family members in biographical article. My last sentence was an example illustrating how this could help provide context, but maybe I'm wrong so I'm sorry.
HaEr48 (
talk)
20:54, 20 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I did not find information about the date of her birth or about her age in books cited in the article or in other books in my library. Even Natasha R. Hodgson's Women, Crusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative fails to mention Cecilia's age, although she writes of Cecilia.
Borsoka (
talk)
01:58, 21 April 2019 (UTC)reply
was allegedly born in the late 1110s: why "allegedly"? Per
MOS:ALLEGED, if the intention is to introduce doubt, please mention the source of the doubt.
@
Borsoka: Thanks for your update, it looks really great. One sentence, however, seems odd: Unless Bohemond and Tancred, Raymond accepted the Byzantine Emperor ... Did you mean another word instead of unless?
HaEr48 (
talk)
02:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks for your responses,
Borsoka, as well as your good work on the article. I've passed this article as GA. I hope my review has been useful.
06:49, 23 April 2019 (UTC)reply