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Morford & Lenardon (Classical Mythology), Tripp (Meridian Handbook of Classical Mythology), Gayley (Classic Myths in English Literature and in Art), and Rbt Fagles (glossary of The Odyssey) are unanimous in giving the pronunciation of Polydeuces as pol'-i-dew'-seez. -- kwami
From Liddell & Scott, it would seem the adjectival form is Polydeucean. kwami 2005 June 30 02:07 (UTC)
Until we can get IAUC access... This web site seems to say S 5 and S 6 orbit between Tethys and Dione. Anyone speak norwegian?
« De nye oppdagelsene er månen S/2004 S 5 som går i bane i samme område som månene Tethys og Dione, omtrent 200 - 250 000 km fra planeten. Månen ble sett på bilder tatt over en periode på tre timer 21. oktober og igjen 2. november. Det er for få observasjoner til at det er mulig å beregne banen nøyaktig. Dersom S/2004 S 5 går i en nesten sirkulær bane over Saturns ekvator, kan den dele bane med Dione. S/2004 S 5 er omtrent 5 kilometer i diameter. »
Which translates into
which is a rather "direct" translation of the Norwegian text. You might need to trim the language to make it better English. Some words don't translate directly so I have given alternatives which are all possible translations. I don't know why the first period uses plural ("The new discoveries are…") when the paragraph is only talking about one moon, but plural is used in the Norwegian text. – Peter J. Acklam 23:23, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And this Czech web site seems to say S 5 was spotted on 21 October. Anyone speak Czech?
« 2004-10-21 Na snímcích byl zjištěn další pravděpodobný měsíc Saturnu o rozměru asi 5 km, zřejmě obíhacích na stejné dráze jako měsíc Dione (Saturn IV). Dostal předběžné označení S/2004 S 5. »
2004-10-21 on these images was discovered probably next Saturn's moon; the diameter is about 5 km. It runs on same orbit as moon Dione (Saturn IV).
Sorry for my English
Urhixidur 00:06, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
Here's the paragraph that I got the information about S/2004 S6 from, on the same page in Norwegian as you cited above:
« I området der Saturns F-ring befinner seg er objektet kalt S/2004 S 6 oppdaget. Det sneier innerkanten av det tynne støvbåndet som omgir F-ringen. Funnet ble gjort på bilder tatt 28. oktober. Baneperioden og avstanden fra Saturn ser ut til å være veldig nær den samme som for S/2004 S 3. Måten S/2004 S 6 ble observert på kan imidlertid tyde på at det bare er en klump med støv og ikke en ordentlig måne. Det er til og med mulig, men ikke sannsynlig, at S/2004 S 6 og S/2004 S 4. Mengdene av observasjoner kan til tider virke forvirrende, men planlagte observasjoner vil avklare mange av usikkerhetene. Det ventes også at flere minimåner vil bli oppdaget i det samme området. »
-- Patteroast 20:59, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
So, you're saying Polydeuces is a Dione co-orbital? I'll await confirmation before I change the articles again.
Urhixidur 22:40, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
Only source I've seen reporting Polydeuces' diameter being 13 km is Cassini's homepage [1]. Most pages have the value 3.5 km. The Saturnian Satellite Fact Sheet [2] gives it a radius of ~4 km (or a diameter of ~8 km). Question is, which of these is the correct value? -- Jyril 15:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The article says it is synchronous. Is this known? Is there a reference? Sounds likely, but you never know. It was thought Mercury was synchronous for a long time. Deuar 21:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello. You keep changing the attribution of the discovery of Pallene, Methone and Polydeuces to Carolyn Porco. This is wrong, those satellites have been discovered by Sébastien Charnoz and Carl Murray. You claim to be representing Carolyn Porco. I think it is a lie as Ms Porco perfectly knows she has not discovered those satellites and i cannot believe she would try to abuse the scientific community. In the future if you change once again the attribution of the discovery i will ask you to provide a certified message from Sébastien Charnoz and Carl Murray stating they have not discoevered those satellites. Thank you very much. Regards. Med 16:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is Carolyn Porco's response to your comments, emailed to me: 'The official attribution for sightings of new moons or rings or features on the moons made by the Cassini imaging team members in Cassini images goes to the Cassini Imaging Team. This is standard practice in the astronomical community and is sanctioned by the International Astronomical Union. It would be entirely unfair and inappropriate to credit the 'discovery' to any one individual on a team of many scientists where many people contributed to the discovery. After all, no one attributes the discovery of America to the guy in the crow's nest of Christopher Columbus' ship. Furthermore, the first reports of these sightings were published in the IAU Circulars which are accurately referenced in the Wiki entries, and those reports constitute the offical announcement of the sightings along with the authorship `C.C.Porco and the Cassini Imaging Team'. This is not an abuse of any kind; it is standard practice, and it is the *correct* attribution for these discoveries'.
I suggest that you email Carolyn at cpcomments@ciclops.org if you wish to discuss this matter further. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.32.254 ( talk) 23:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
The IAU gives the official credit for the discovery of Polydeuces to 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' [3]. As it does for Methone, Pallene and Daphnis. Note that no individuals are named. Hence the official IAU attribution for the discovery of these saturnian satellites is 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' and that no individuals are named.
Now the next issue is the correct reference for the announcement of the discovery of these satellites. In the case of Polydeuces it is IAUC 8432: Satellites and Rings of Saturn with authourship 'C.C. Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team'. So why is it 'C.C. Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team' and not just 'The Cassini Imaging Science Team'? In the instructions on how to submit an item for publication in an IAUC [4]
1. 'please use standard IAUC procedures for listing authors (first and middle initials, last full name; maximum of three authors, if possible*) ' 2. 'the "author(s)" whose name(s) appear(s) at the beginning of the published item should be only the person communicating the item to the CBAT (and that is almost always only one person) and/or the person(s) who actually wrote the text to be published' 3. 'Other people who made observations, reduced data, or contributed in an important way to discussions involving the published item can be mentioned by name in the text where appropriate (without affiliations).' 4.'Please note that we generally *require* that the person contributing the item for publication be listed either as the first name for the item or as one of the co-authors.'
From this its clear that ideally no more than three authours should be listed and that the person who SUBMITS the text for publication MUST be either the first name listed or one of the co-authors. Since the Cassini Imaging Science Team consists of upwards of 20 people its clearly impractical to list all of them individually but the person sending in the text MUST be individually named. So clearly Dr Porco (in her capacity as Team Leader?) submitted the text and is therefore individually named as required for publication and the other team members aren't named and simply covered by the 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' beacuse there are too many of them to name individually.
From this I think its quite plain that just because someone is first authour in an IAUC it doesn't mean that they played any part in the associated discovery, they might simply be the person who wrote the text and submitted it for publication.
To summarise
1. the IAU lists the discoverer of Polydeuces as just 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' and no individuals are mentioned. Hence if we are going to follow the IAU's lead then Wikipedia should do the same
2. The reference for the discovery announcement is C.C. Porco et al. (2005) which DOES NOT mean that the discoveror of Polydeuces is 'C.C.Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team'.
If we are going to start naming people in relation to the discovery then Carl Murray should be named if Carolyn Porco is. We should either follow one proceedure or the other. Its just 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' or 'Carl Murray and the Cassini Imaging Science Team lead by Carolyn Porco'.
The current practice of one editor who claims to represent Dr Porco (I have no reason to doubt that he doesn't) of removing anyone else's name and inisiting that the discoveror is 'Carolyn Porco and the Cassini Imaging Team' is both inaccurate/misleading and quite frankly worrying.-- Syntaxis
One could be interested by [5]Rebjon's request for arbitration. Med 21:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Rebjon21 has made a Request for Arbitration [6] regarding the Wikipedia entries for Methone, Pallene and Polydeuces. Specifically regarding their discoveries and who gets named as discoveror. This request has been denied as being "premature" with a request to "follow all the steps in dispute resolution". Having refreshed my memory [7] it looks like the initial advice "Avoidance" isn't going to fly. Personally I think that we are still at "First step: Talk to the other parties involved" with a dash of "Discuss with third parties". I thank Rebjon21 for refraining from making further edits to the discoveror info and I will also do likewise until we reach some sort of resolution but I will add a note that there is a dispute and link to this Talk page. Dicuya has made a contribution [8] stating that Polydeuces was discovered "by the Cassini Imaging Team lead by Carolyn Porco ". Now its correct that the Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco. The problem I have with using this exact phrase in this particular context is that an individual has been specifically named in relation to (or at the very least in the same sentence as) the discovery of the satellite. In my opinion this is certainly against the spirit of the IAU discovery convention and I believe it is also contrary to the letter of that convention. After all the IAU names the discover as "Cassini Imaging Science Team" [9] not "Cassini Imaging Team led Carolyn Porco". A user of Wikipedia could develop the impression that Dr Porco was the main contributor to the discovery if she was the only person individually named.
O.K. I'd now like to talk about the press release regarding the discovery of Methone and Pallene [10]. This press release was issued by NASA/JPL. A contact at Dr Porco's group (Cassini Imaging Central Laboratory for Operations) is named. Now interestingly there is a press release on Dr Porco's CICLOPS website regarding the discovery of Methone and Pallene [11] with the attribution being "MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE, SPACE SCIENCE INSTITUTE, BOULDER, COLO. 80301". As far as I can tell the text is exactly the same as the NASA/JPL release [12]. Dr Porco is at the Space Science Institute. This press release from SSI states that "The moons were first seen by Dr. Sebastien Charnoz". My understanding of the way these press releases happen is that a Cassini Scientist/their home institution decides they want to issue one and then contacts the JPL press office to coordinate. If NASA/JPL wants to be involved then the press release has to go through various tedious stages of an approval process and then gets released by NASA/JPL. If they don't want to be involved then the scientists home institution issues the press release. The point I'm trying to make is that the press release naming Dr Charnoz as the person to "first see" the moons was either written by or at least approved by Dr Porco herself.
Its been argued that only the "official" IAU document, IAU8389 announcing the discovery and the the IAU official name website [13] should be used as sources of information regarding the discovery of these saturnian satellites. The NASA/JPL press release [14], the corresponding SSI press release [ [15] and the BBC online article [16] according to some editors MUST NOT be used as sources of information. I think that an arguement can be made either way. However I believe that all reliable sources of information should be used rather than just "official" sources. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the International Astronomical Union is anything but a non-partisan, ethical, unbiased international body of scientific professionals but there are quite clearly some "offical" sources e.g. governments, religeous movements, companies etc whose information is quite clearly unreliable and other reliable "unofficial" sources have to also be used. As far as I'm concerned a NASA press release and a BBC new article are from sources that have some integrity and do check their sources. If accurate information is out there then it should be included in Wikipedia articles and we shouldn't just limit ourselves to "official" sources. And another thing why should be we bound by what the IAU decides anyway? Even some professional astronomers refuse to toe the IAU line in some cases e.g. [17]
Just to restate my position I believe we either follow both the letter and spirit of the IAU and the discoveror simply be the "Cassini Imaging Team" with no individuals named or we name names and Murray and Charnoz be mentioned along with the Cassini Imaging Team and Porco can be mentioned as Imaging Team Leader if desired. I don't believe its either fair or in the spirit of the IAU naming convention to mention Dr Porco but not Drs Charnoz and Murray.
As a parting thought Rebjon21 states that "..The BBC article has been incorrectly written and they have been notified of their mistake.." [18]. I've just checked the BBC article that names Murray & Charnoz as the first people to see Polydeuces - Methone & Pallene [19] and to my surprise the article has been changed to remove reference to Murray & Charnoz. The Google cached original version of the article where Charnoz and Murray are named can be obtained by following this link [20] (this cached version is from 14 June 2007 so it might be overwritten with the edited version by the time you follow the link). So the BBC appear to have changed a 2 year old web article following a complaint of inaccuracy when Charnoz is named in relation to Methone & Pallene in a NASA/JPL press release. Have the BBC been caving in to pressure from someone? And worse have they caved in without actually checking the facts? Syntaxis 16:35 UTC 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have been made aware of the dispute over the issue of credit for the discovery of moons made with the Cassini cameras, and have decided to respond myself. There are some terrible misunderstandings within the postings on these pages, which need to be rectified.
Let me first give a sense of what a spacecraft team's work is like.
First, there is an enormous amount of work that goes into building a camera system like that on the Cassini spacecraft, and in ensuring that it is a scientifically useful instrument for studying the Saturn system. Once the cameras are built, there is of course the work of planning the sequences of images that it acquires, as well as building software, databases, processes, training staff personnel, etc, etc. etc. In the case of Cassini, there were 14 years of such work between the time the mission was started in 1990 and arrival at Saturn orbit in 2004. Many of those years were without a break: solid 10 and 12 hour days, week after week, month after month, with no vacations or holidays, just to be prepared for Saturn orbit insertion. And this is the case in general for all spacecraft missions nowadays: To be in a responsible position on such a mission is to have an extremely demanding, all-consuming profession.
During the latter part of those 14 years, the science team members were engaged in the planning of the science investigations. The Cassini imaging experiment alone involved many, many different types of scientific objectives that have guided the construction of the imaging sequences. Each objective has its own special design, involving image layout and timing, exposure times and filter selections, etc. Then there is all the negotiating work to be done in convincing other Cassini investigators of the necessity for the images being designed. Observing time is a precious commodity on a complex mission like Cassini. Negotiating with the other scientists, both on the imaging team and on the other science teams, took many hours of teleconference calls, every week for years on end.
All of this one might say is the `decisive' part of any successful observation: If the camera is not built properly, and if the image strategy and design are not done correctly and if one is not successful convincing others of the necessity for the observations, the objective can be entirely lost.
So, on a mission like Cassini, and indeed on most spaceflight missions, the analysis of the images is actually the least of the work entailed in making any discovery.
This is not to discredit those individuals working on our team who are poring over our images, trying to extract important scientific information from them. But to say that looking at images, and writing software to analyze them is the most `decisive' part of a discovery is patently not true. The decisive work was done over the previous decade and a half and generally involved many different people.
Thus, on an experiment as complicated as the Cassini Imaging Science experiment, no one person can be listed as the `discoverer' of new objects like rings and moons. The International Astronomical Union recognizing this particular aspect of spaceflight missions has established conventions that support this. The official credit *must* be the full team. If my name appears, it is not because I am the `discoverer' above other team members, but because I am the leader of the team. The usual practice, when a team is too large to mention every member, is to list the team leader followed by `et al.', or by `the Such-and-Such Team'. Stating `the Such-and-Such Team, led by So-and-So' is equivalent.
Secondly, it is of course our job to produce scientific results and to write scientific publications. But, to generate public interest in our work, it is also our job to release our results to the public in a readily-understandable way. Press releases are written to tell an appealing story in a way that engages the non-scientific public. Often, we bring out the human-element for this very purpose. But press releases are not meant to be the definitive word on the discovery and they are certainly in no way comprehensive sources of information. Often, what is written in them ends up being shown to be wrong, or at least eventually superceded by more thorough analyses and more accurate conclusions. And news stories based on them are therefore equally wrong or incomplete.
Hence, in the presence of other information, when there is no need to establish the timing of a discovery (because it can be established by other means, and in this case, the IAU Circulars establish the timing), referneces to press releases should be avoided.
I hope this clarifies the issue and puts it finally to rest.
In response to what Carolyn has added and Med's reply, I have the following comments. First, I see that Med has changed the pages related to the three satellites, despite Carolyn's explanation. Second, I think now that this is the definitive word and the attribution for the discovery of the three satellites should, rightly, go to the "Cassini Imaging Team led by Carolyn Porco", with Carolyn being named ONLY because she is the team leader NOT because she discovered the three satellites (Pallene, Methone, and Polydeuces) which is NOT what I have been claiming and I would never claim something that was clearly not true, especially something as important as the discovery of astronomical bodies orbiting Saturn. Can everyone involved in this dispute please look carefully at the following proposed sentence, what is being said, and the order of the words:
"It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team led by Carolyn Porco".
Please read that again. It (Pallene, Methone, and Polydeuces respectively) was DISCOVERED by the CASSINI IMAGING TEAM - i.e. NOT by Murray NOT by Charnoz and NOT by Carolyn, but discovered by the TEAM - i.e. the words "Cassini Imaging Team" follow directly after the word "discovered" so it is clear to everyone who reads the articles on Wikipedia that the TEAM discovered the three satellites not any one individual. As for Carolyn's name being included in this sentence, this adheres to normal scientific protocol and again it is clear in what capacity she is included in this sentence, i.e. as the team leader NOT the discover. Please look at the order of the words.
It is clear that no individual team member should be singled out for this discovery, since many, many were involved.
I would like to add that it is interesting why Syntaxis, and more importantly Med, feel so passionately about this issue. Surely if they did not have a vested and personal interest in this issue they would not continue to insist that Murray and Charnoz be mentioned. Do Syntaxis and Med know Charnoz and Murray I wonder? It is clearly inappropriate for someone to make changes based on personal preferences.
As for what Med has said about Hubble, Cassini doesn't work like Hubble. The individual scientists using Hubble only propose and use the images. They did NOT build the instruments they are using, and they didn't take 15 years out of their careers to devote to a mission. It is not appropriate to compare two dissimilar scientific endeavours.
First, I would like to say that I agree with what Volcanopele has written about Med's reprehensible threats and attacks. Surely we all want to sort this dispute out as amicably as possible, but resorting to attacks that are ugly will not achieve this. Let's focus on the matter in hand and not become personal, as this is not only unprofessional it is not helpful.
Second, for reasons Carolyn explained, press releases are not reliable sources of information. If we all care about accurate information, then that means we care about *complete* information. And mentioning Charnoz and Murray would be to mention only a small part of a very involved story, and therefore would be misleading and inaccurate.
But I have a suggested solution to this dispute.
Why don't we separate the discovery from the information about the team leader as this actually and symbolically disassociates the two? Porco's name would therefore be added as additional descriptive information about the Imaging Team, and nothing more. So the separation between the mention of the discovery and the fact that she leads the team should suffice. We can do this as follows?
METHONE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 1. Methone is also named Saturn XXXII. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
PALLENE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] in 2004 and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 2. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
POLYDEUCES
Polydeuces was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 5. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
The pages Pallene (moon), Methone (moon) and Polydeuces (moon) have been protected because of persistant edit warring and reverts.
I encourage involved users to edit the talk page, resolve their differences, and craft a common version which suits everybody. You are all grown scientists, you are intelligent enough to do this. Rama 13:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
So this is how Wikipedia works? MED states: "And i also strongly dislike manipulations like having a BBC article changed, this could have some unfortunate consequences for the person having pressured the BBC to do this." People attempt to win their arguments by threats and bullying? I'm absolutely appalled. I believe that this immediately disqualifies the individual calling himself Med. Whoever you are, you have no right to offer further commentary.
I will say that Voyager and Cassini simply do not work the way the Hubble and Spitzer (apparently) do, if what is written on these pages by others concerning those missions is accurate. Planetary programs have a different culture.
And as has been said already several times, any appearance of the team leader's name is not in the capacity of a discoverer. What has just been proposed by the individual RebJon is certainly agreeable to me.
And I hope this brings this issue to a close. - CP
For the record and for the avoidance of doubt, I am suggesting that we credit the discoveries of the moons to the Cassini Imaging Team. Period. In addition, and in a separate sentence that is totally unrelated to the discoveries, I suggest we add Carolyn's name as the leader of the Team as this is factually accurate and in no way distracts from or interferes with the preceding sentence relating to the discoveries of the moons. As for Med's vociferous response, I agree with Volcanopele that Med is being abusive. Volcanopele and I have calmly suggested that we try to resolve this dispute amicably, but clearly Med does not agree with us. Med is being totally unreasonable -- who is s/he to say 'this is not negotiable'?! Furthermore, the BBC wouldn't change something they knew was correct. Does Med take them for fools!??? Rama, can you please note that Med is behaving uncooperatively and erratically and that he or she is not helping us to resolve this dispute and in fact is escalating it by his or her attacks, which undermine not only the issue under discussion but the reputation of Wikipedia -- Rebjon21 23:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
By the way, i find weird that some people create new accounts just to defend Carolyn Porco's point. See Special:Contributions/CheshireCatCO, Special:Contributions/Fhqwhgads17 for instance. The first one having an IP from the University of Colorado… Med 00:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Now this has to stop. I do not want further personal attacks, provocations, or any form of attempts at discrediting people in particular. This is true for everybody. Med, be civil in your development. Rebjon21, stop provoking Med and please make genuine attempts to finding a compromise.
I already had to block three articles, that should be quite enough. The people involved in the discussion are apparently scientists, they should be mature enough to discuss things in a civil and honnest manner. Rama 08:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I heard about this interesting story some time ago. Basically the main issues seem to be : what are the well-established facts, and who does deserve some or most of the credit; and, as a corollary, how Wikipedia should handle this issue. This is a sociologically interesting question, and I can certainly testify of it, having witnessed several hot discussions in some moderate/big scientific collaborations on some related issues (who will sign the discovery paper ? How will the author list be sorted ? and so on). In my own field, it is widely known that several CMB and Big Bang related issues are quite scarsely credited to the proper persons (for example almost everyone in the US forget, or at least used to forget citing Lemaître as one of the founders of the so-called Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker metric — see the WP entry for some very basic introduction to this issue). So regarding these moons, I have some factual questions
Now, I have some more personal questions to Mrs Porco, if she happens to read this (and apologizing if this was already discussed somewhere) : what is your preferred option : citing the team only, you only, CM only, CM and the team, CM and you, you and the team, or both three ? In any case, how credit should be given ? Do you know CM's opinion on that matter ? Alain r 00:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry...I do not really know how to use Wikipedia, and so don't know how to indent in another response. This will have to do.
Since this has been addressed to me, I will answer. And the answer is:
Most of these questions are irrelevant, because they ignore what happened before the images even hit the ground, which was a lot of work on the parts of others. The work of CM and SC were important in these discoveries, but no more important or worthy of mention than others. Discoveries of this sort are all vetted by the team, and so we all discussed the significance of the results, whether or not we had adequate information to make an announcement, etc. We work as a team, and we get credit as a team. And I've given my opinion several times above as to how credit should be given in this case: to say `discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team' is the correct attribution. To mention the team leader name somewhere thereafter, as someone else suggested, is only an informational descriptor about the team, not about the discovery. As for the official proposal for the name of the moon, in this particular case I proposed the name Polydeuces, but that too is completely irrelevant and earns me no more credit than anyone else. Once again: the Cassini Imaging Team works as a team, and that's how credit for these kinds of discoveries gets attributed. To single out any one individual for one particular role they played in these discoveries is to deny the credit that is rightfully shared by all of us. - CP
I'm glad that some unnamed individual agrees, that to put one team member out front -- ie, to pry apart the team agreement and single out one member -- is not appropriate. This is why I think it should be left 'discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team'. After that, to include Carolyn's name is just simple journalistic practice...to put the head of an organization or team in the article describing that organization or team.
I hope my compromise statements (below) meet with approval:
Why don't we separate the discovery from the information about the team leader as this actually and symbolically disassociates the two? Porco's name would therefore be added as additional descriptive information about the Imaging Team, and nothing more. So the separation between the mention of the discovery and the fact that she leads the team should suffice. We can do this as follows?
METHONE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 1. Methone is also named Saturn XXXII. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
PALLENE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] in 2004 and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 2. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
POLYDEUCES
Polydeuces was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 5. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
After all, you have to admit: The Imaging Team as a whole has made remarkable discoveries about Saturn, we owe them a lot, and Carolyn deserves mention as their leader.
I thought that I'd try to find some indication of the IAU's policy for attributing discovery of new satellites. And I did indeed find the relevant information [24], the relevant bit is the very last paragraph in the page .."When a satellite has been discovered through the efforts of a large scientific team, the list of individual team members may be too long to include all contributors. In such cases, credit for the discovery will go to the science team." Note that this is a "convention" not a "rule" and it does not state that the credit must go to the team but that if the list of people is "too long" to include everyone then the credit goes to the science team. I believe that the clear intention here is that either everyone who contributed to the discovery is named or no-one is named and the credit is given to the science team collectively. (And once again I point out that its not "the XXX Science Team led by YYY" since this names an individual but doesn't name all the individuals who contributed which is contrary to the convention).
The question that immediately occurs to me is how many contributors is too many? The offical IAU page, [25] list 8 people (B. Gladman, J. Kavelaars, J.-M. Petit, H. Scholl, M. Holman, B.G. Marsden, P. Nicholson and J.A. Burns) as the discoverers the the saturnian satellites Ymir, Paaliaq, Tarvos, Ijiraq and 7 others. So 8 individuals aren't too many to be named. Another relevant question is what is meant by "scientific team"? Is this just the scientists who analyse that data and publish papers in peer reviewed journals. In the Cassini context I believe this would be the 13 competetively selected Team Members and the Team associates who either work directly for Team Members on Cassini data or are invited to join the Team after the selection process because of the scientific contribution that can make. I'll call these people the "imaging scientists", a list of them is basically the author list of the ISS Team Reports [26]. The Team Members stay the same but there seems to be some turnover of team associates over time which isn't surprising. It varies slightly but the list is about 30 or so. Alternately does "scientific team" mean the imaging scientists plus all the other people (I'll call them "others") involved in either the Cassini Project generally or the imaging experiment specifically. Past practice in the astronomical community appears to be to name the "imaging scientists" plus specific individual "others" when appropriate.
As for the question of whether the actual work involved in satellite discoveries was/is done by a handful of the "imaging scientists" (probably less than 9) or the entire 30 odd "imaging scientists" plus all the "others" is something I won't even try to go into right now.
And a final thought. What happens if a new satellite is discovered in publically available Cassini ISS images that are obtained via the Planetary Data System [27] and the people who make the discovery aren't members of the Cassini Imaging Team? Will the IAU insist that the credit go to the Cassini Imaging Science Team or will the people who actually made such a discovery get the credit? I notice that the credit for the discovery of the saturnian satellite Pan is given to Mark Showalter [28], this was made in 1990 from publically available Voyager images taken in 1980-81, and not the Voyager Science Team.
And once again I point out that, to quote Rama, (Wikipedia) "does not seek to upset external conventions, but it is not bound by them either". We don't have to follow whatever decisions have been made by the IAU or the Cassini Imaging Team, if information is accurate and appropriate then we should consider including it Syntaxis 16:21 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Wiki Madness
I am a science journalist with an academic background in astronomy – specifically, planetary astronomy. I’ve been very fortunate to have covered stories about everything from project Apollo to the Voyager spacecrafts and now Cassini. I’ve also learned from some of the best: the late Drs. Harold Masursky, Gene Shoemaker, Carl Sagan and current veterans like Gentry Lee -- gentlemen and great scientists all.
When a friend suggested I check this dispute out – I was frankly disinterested. More important fish to fry and deadlines to meet. I am not very familiar with the Wikipedia culture though I do use the site sometimes as a starting point when developing story ideas.
I was appalled to see that the tone of this discussion is more typical of what one might expect to find on some science fiction discussion group. It’s one thing to have an opinion, another to engage in childish personal attacks and stubbornly defend contrived, agenda-driven points of view. Dr. Carolyn Porco is one of the world’s finest planetary scientists and has worked with passion and dedication over many years now to bring us all those fantastic Cassini images. I don’t understand why she shouldn’t be acknowledged as the head of the team. She certainly deserves it, and it is relevant to the issue of any Cassini discovery -- that the team was (and is) under her leadership.
It has been clear in my dealings with the Cassini Imaging Team in the course of my job that they are exactly that – a team. Any attribution should therefore be to the team. But noting that she leads the team is also important, since the buck truly stops with her. To imply that this is some kind of ego quest by her or that somehow she is trying to deny credit to other deserving individuals is utterly ridiculous. The most egregious postings here had the tone of a fourth grader saying something along the lines of, “if you get yours then I get mine.” Well no, not when one view is so obviously personally motivated to discredit Dr. Porco and remove her from mention.
As for the so-called Wikipedia neutrality – I see absolutely no evidence of it here – just a lot of personal agendas. Leave Dr. Porco alone and go do something constructive. Lassenmichael 05:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)lassenmichael
Sorry Rama that I used too many adjectives. I will use fewer (not less) now. As for says who? How about Carl Sagan and Gene Shoemaker? I will leave you with a simple thought: Individual team members shouldn't be singled out for discovering anything and a team leader is mentioned simply because she is just that. Have fun with the rest of your discussion.-- Lassenmichael 15:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)lassenmichael
Given that this article has been locked for several days, I believe it is appropriate to poll the editors here to see if we can at least decided one something rather than continue to allow the articles to be locked. For this, we should use Preferential voting. Each editor gets two votes: you can vote twice for one selection if you strongly prefer it, or you can vote once for two selection, if you want to voice support for two selections. I think we should vote this way since there are two what I guess you could call opposite positions and one "compromise" position. The choices are:
In this case only the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis.
In this case the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis, and either Carl Murray, Carolyn Porco, or Sébastien Charnoz will be described as having seen these moons first.
In this case only the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis. In a separate sentence or clause, Carolyn Porco will be referred to as the leader of the imaging team.
it quite ridiculous that some people came up with certian conclusions, but the fact is fact, it's Carolyn porco and the mighty Cassini Imaging team that discovered the moon. May be some other guys find this moon. I appreciate his efforts. But IAU has its own laws and guidelines. so to sum up i vote for Cassini Imaging team under the leadership of respected carolyn porco.
Vipinmaars 20:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC) the credit for the discovery of Saturn's moon Polydeuces for no doubt goes to Carolyn Porco and the cassini Imaging team. According to me all other arguments are just ridiculous.
i would like to congratulate Carolyn Porco and her team for this wonderful accomplishments as far as the debate is concerned, its a waste of time.
Delving back in here, Charnoz's own wikipedia entry even says "By using a numerical code he wrote for an automatic satellite-detection (among the hundreds of images of the ISS camera system), he helped the Imaging Team to discover the two smallest known moons of the Saturn system in 2004[1],[2],[3],[4]: Methone and Pallene." Sounds like he himself is adhering to the conventions spelled out of "team first", making this whole arguement even more ridiculus. On a bio page that may make sense. I thought I would point that out in the name of consistancy. It might have some relevence here. Dusty14most 10:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
There were 3 double votes under Option #3 that were removed. Why did Rama remove those and leave the other double votes alone? Or is it that he removed the votes from the one option he dislikes? This is vote tampering. It is clear, even with the double votes gone, that Option #3 has won. So contest is over. Let's go with that. Rebjon21 14:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I have been dropping in on this exchange every once and a while, and have received emails from individuals from all over the globe who also have been reading this discussion, and I must say, from my own reading and from what I've been told, I find what's transpired here both eye-opening and disturbing.
The so-called `moderators' have more than demonstrated their lack of impartiality by removing double votes from certain categories but not from others, preventing other people from voting (which conveys the very loud message that no one else is allowed to participate in this discussion), altering the content of the `locked' pages even after they've been locked, and then, of course, constructing the most contrived and contorted arguments in support of an invalid, biased stance. The contents of this exchange make it patently clear that Wikipedia does indeed operate by its own conventions, and ones that appear to follow the personal whims of a few rogue individuals.
To those who have been as dismayed as I have been at this, you may be relieved to hear that a new on-line astronomical encyclopedia is being created, called Encyclopedia of the Cosmos, which will be edited by experts only. This encyclopedia will be part of the Digital Universe, an education initiative of the Digital Universe Foundation, a non-profit organization (
http://www.dufoundation.org). The goal of the Digital Universe is to organize a worldwide network of scholars to create a subset of the Web in which high-quality information is well organized and readily available as a free public service.
So there is hope that accurate and reliable information, vetted by people who understand and respect the need for accuracy and reliability, will eventually be on-line.
In the meantime and for the record, I will say that it doesn't matter to me personally one way or the other whether my name is called out as the team leader of the Cassini imaging experiment. And to repeat what I've said before, no one individual can be rightfully singled out in these discoveries as they were the work of many individuals. What matters is that the credit for the discovery goes to the entire team and the entire team alone. So, while I am touched by all of those who voiced their support for calling out my name as team leader, the obvious course of action to take in order to get by this impasse is to simply remove the names of any and all individuals, including mine, and move on.
Also for the record, and in response to a comment made above, I will say that I do indeed participate heavily in the research conducted with the Cassini Imaging experiment, from the design, planning, and execution of the imaging sequences, to the analysis and interpretation of the images after they hit the ground. And that includes the searches and discoveries of new satellites, among other research topics I am involved in (like ring structure and photometry, and the Enceladus plumes). Yes, being a team leader and directing CICLOPS is a *very* large management job, but I didn't work for the 14 years before getting into Saturn orbit so that I could merely wave a baton. I am a scientist first. That is my passion, and that's what I (still) do.
Hopefully, this will now put the lid on this matter. #
CarolynPorco
18:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Polydeuces (moon), Pallene (moon) and Methone (moon) are now unprotected. My appologies for the not doing it yesterday, the thing had slipped off my mind. Good continuation to everybody. Rama 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Pallene_(moon)#Proactivity. Urhixidur 19:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)he was a hero of greek mytyhs
I've just uploaded an audio recording of the article. Please let me know if I've mispronounced anything. :-) -- Mangst ( talk) 16:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Does this last phrase mean that the difference between P's and D's distances from Saturn varies by that much, or something else? — Tamfang ( talk) 03:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Etriusus ( talk · contribs) 23:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Alright, grabbing this review. I'll finish this in a bit. 🏵️
Etrius (
Us)
23:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
One possible explanation is that Polydeuces's eccentricity is primordial; its orbit was initially eccentric when it formed and has remained that way sinceSimplify sentence, too many words to say something rather simple.
Comment: That's all from me, page is on hold. 🏵️
Etrius (
Us)
02:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Nrco0e, at this time I do not see any additional issues within GA criteria. Article passes. Congrats on another GA, this was an easy review and the page was incredibly well written. 🏵️ Etrius ( Us) 06:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
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Morford & Lenardon (Classical Mythology), Tripp (Meridian Handbook of Classical Mythology), Gayley (Classic Myths in English Literature and in Art), and Rbt Fagles (glossary of The Odyssey) are unanimous in giving the pronunciation of Polydeuces as pol'-i-dew'-seez. -- kwami
From Liddell & Scott, it would seem the adjectival form is Polydeucean. kwami 2005 June 30 02:07 (UTC)
Until we can get IAUC access... This web site seems to say S 5 and S 6 orbit between Tethys and Dione. Anyone speak norwegian?
« De nye oppdagelsene er månen S/2004 S 5 som går i bane i samme område som månene Tethys og Dione, omtrent 200 - 250 000 km fra planeten. Månen ble sett på bilder tatt over en periode på tre timer 21. oktober og igjen 2. november. Det er for få observasjoner til at det er mulig å beregne banen nøyaktig. Dersom S/2004 S 5 går i en nesten sirkulær bane over Saturns ekvator, kan den dele bane med Dione. S/2004 S 5 er omtrent 5 kilometer i diameter. »
Which translates into
which is a rather "direct" translation of the Norwegian text. You might need to trim the language to make it better English. Some words don't translate directly so I have given alternatives which are all possible translations. I don't know why the first period uses plural ("The new discoveries are…") when the paragraph is only talking about one moon, but plural is used in the Norwegian text. – Peter J. Acklam 23:23, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And this Czech web site seems to say S 5 was spotted on 21 October. Anyone speak Czech?
« 2004-10-21 Na snímcích byl zjištěn další pravděpodobný měsíc Saturnu o rozměru asi 5 km, zřejmě obíhacích na stejné dráze jako měsíc Dione (Saturn IV). Dostal předběžné označení S/2004 S 5. »
2004-10-21 on these images was discovered probably next Saturn's moon; the diameter is about 5 km. It runs on same orbit as moon Dione (Saturn IV).
Sorry for my English
Urhixidur 00:06, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
Here's the paragraph that I got the information about S/2004 S6 from, on the same page in Norwegian as you cited above:
« I området der Saturns F-ring befinner seg er objektet kalt S/2004 S 6 oppdaget. Det sneier innerkanten av det tynne støvbåndet som omgir F-ringen. Funnet ble gjort på bilder tatt 28. oktober. Baneperioden og avstanden fra Saturn ser ut til å være veldig nær den samme som for S/2004 S 3. Måten S/2004 S 6 ble observert på kan imidlertid tyde på at det bare er en klump med støv og ikke en ordentlig måne. Det er til og med mulig, men ikke sannsynlig, at S/2004 S 6 og S/2004 S 4. Mengdene av observasjoner kan til tider virke forvirrende, men planlagte observasjoner vil avklare mange av usikkerhetene. Det ventes også at flere minimåner vil bli oppdaget i det samme området. »
-- Patteroast 20:59, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
So, you're saying Polydeuces is a Dione co-orbital? I'll await confirmation before I change the articles again.
Urhixidur 22:40, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
Only source I've seen reporting Polydeuces' diameter being 13 km is Cassini's homepage [1]. Most pages have the value 3.5 km. The Saturnian Satellite Fact Sheet [2] gives it a radius of ~4 km (or a diameter of ~8 km). Question is, which of these is the correct value? -- Jyril 15:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The article says it is synchronous. Is this known? Is there a reference? Sounds likely, but you never know. It was thought Mercury was synchronous for a long time. Deuar 21:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello. You keep changing the attribution of the discovery of Pallene, Methone and Polydeuces to Carolyn Porco. This is wrong, those satellites have been discovered by Sébastien Charnoz and Carl Murray. You claim to be representing Carolyn Porco. I think it is a lie as Ms Porco perfectly knows she has not discovered those satellites and i cannot believe she would try to abuse the scientific community. In the future if you change once again the attribution of the discovery i will ask you to provide a certified message from Sébastien Charnoz and Carl Murray stating they have not discoevered those satellites. Thank you very much. Regards. Med 16:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is Carolyn Porco's response to your comments, emailed to me: 'The official attribution for sightings of new moons or rings or features on the moons made by the Cassini imaging team members in Cassini images goes to the Cassini Imaging Team. This is standard practice in the astronomical community and is sanctioned by the International Astronomical Union. It would be entirely unfair and inappropriate to credit the 'discovery' to any one individual on a team of many scientists where many people contributed to the discovery. After all, no one attributes the discovery of America to the guy in the crow's nest of Christopher Columbus' ship. Furthermore, the first reports of these sightings were published in the IAU Circulars which are accurately referenced in the Wiki entries, and those reports constitute the offical announcement of the sightings along with the authorship `C.C.Porco and the Cassini Imaging Team'. This is not an abuse of any kind; it is standard practice, and it is the *correct* attribution for these discoveries'.
I suggest that you email Carolyn at cpcomments@ciclops.org if you wish to discuss this matter further. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.32.254 ( talk) 23:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
The IAU gives the official credit for the discovery of Polydeuces to 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' [3]. As it does for Methone, Pallene and Daphnis. Note that no individuals are named. Hence the official IAU attribution for the discovery of these saturnian satellites is 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' and that no individuals are named.
Now the next issue is the correct reference for the announcement of the discovery of these satellites. In the case of Polydeuces it is IAUC 8432: Satellites and Rings of Saturn with authourship 'C.C. Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team'. So why is it 'C.C. Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team' and not just 'The Cassini Imaging Science Team'? In the instructions on how to submit an item for publication in an IAUC [4]
1. 'please use standard IAUC procedures for listing authors (first and middle initials, last full name; maximum of three authors, if possible*) ' 2. 'the "author(s)" whose name(s) appear(s) at the beginning of the published item should be only the person communicating the item to the CBAT (and that is almost always only one person) and/or the person(s) who actually wrote the text to be published' 3. 'Other people who made observations, reduced data, or contributed in an important way to discussions involving the published item can be mentioned by name in the text where appropriate (without affiliations).' 4.'Please note that we generally *require* that the person contributing the item for publication be listed either as the first name for the item or as one of the co-authors.'
From this its clear that ideally no more than three authours should be listed and that the person who SUBMITS the text for publication MUST be either the first name listed or one of the co-authors. Since the Cassini Imaging Science Team consists of upwards of 20 people its clearly impractical to list all of them individually but the person sending in the text MUST be individually named. So clearly Dr Porco (in her capacity as Team Leader?) submitted the text and is therefore individually named as required for publication and the other team members aren't named and simply covered by the 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' beacuse there are too many of them to name individually.
From this I think its quite plain that just because someone is first authour in an IAUC it doesn't mean that they played any part in the associated discovery, they might simply be the person who wrote the text and submitted it for publication.
To summarise
1. the IAU lists the discoverer of Polydeuces as just 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' and no individuals are mentioned. Hence if we are going to follow the IAU's lead then Wikipedia should do the same
2. The reference for the discovery announcement is C.C. Porco et al. (2005) which DOES NOT mean that the discoveror of Polydeuces is 'C.C.Porco and the Cassini Imaging Science Team'.
If we are going to start naming people in relation to the discovery then Carl Murray should be named if Carolyn Porco is. We should either follow one proceedure or the other. Its just 'Cassini Imaging Science Team' or 'Carl Murray and the Cassini Imaging Science Team lead by Carolyn Porco'.
The current practice of one editor who claims to represent Dr Porco (I have no reason to doubt that he doesn't) of removing anyone else's name and inisiting that the discoveror is 'Carolyn Porco and the Cassini Imaging Team' is both inaccurate/misleading and quite frankly worrying.-- Syntaxis
One could be interested by [5]Rebjon's request for arbitration. Med 21:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Rebjon21 has made a Request for Arbitration [6] regarding the Wikipedia entries for Methone, Pallene and Polydeuces. Specifically regarding their discoveries and who gets named as discoveror. This request has been denied as being "premature" with a request to "follow all the steps in dispute resolution". Having refreshed my memory [7] it looks like the initial advice "Avoidance" isn't going to fly. Personally I think that we are still at "First step: Talk to the other parties involved" with a dash of "Discuss with third parties". I thank Rebjon21 for refraining from making further edits to the discoveror info and I will also do likewise until we reach some sort of resolution but I will add a note that there is a dispute and link to this Talk page. Dicuya has made a contribution [8] stating that Polydeuces was discovered "by the Cassini Imaging Team lead by Carolyn Porco ". Now its correct that the Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco. The problem I have with using this exact phrase in this particular context is that an individual has been specifically named in relation to (or at the very least in the same sentence as) the discovery of the satellite. In my opinion this is certainly against the spirit of the IAU discovery convention and I believe it is also contrary to the letter of that convention. After all the IAU names the discover as "Cassini Imaging Science Team" [9] not "Cassini Imaging Team led Carolyn Porco". A user of Wikipedia could develop the impression that Dr Porco was the main contributor to the discovery if she was the only person individually named.
O.K. I'd now like to talk about the press release regarding the discovery of Methone and Pallene [10]. This press release was issued by NASA/JPL. A contact at Dr Porco's group (Cassini Imaging Central Laboratory for Operations) is named. Now interestingly there is a press release on Dr Porco's CICLOPS website regarding the discovery of Methone and Pallene [11] with the attribution being "MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE, SPACE SCIENCE INSTITUTE, BOULDER, COLO. 80301". As far as I can tell the text is exactly the same as the NASA/JPL release [12]. Dr Porco is at the Space Science Institute. This press release from SSI states that "The moons were first seen by Dr. Sebastien Charnoz". My understanding of the way these press releases happen is that a Cassini Scientist/their home institution decides they want to issue one and then contacts the JPL press office to coordinate. If NASA/JPL wants to be involved then the press release has to go through various tedious stages of an approval process and then gets released by NASA/JPL. If they don't want to be involved then the scientists home institution issues the press release. The point I'm trying to make is that the press release naming Dr Charnoz as the person to "first see" the moons was either written by or at least approved by Dr Porco herself.
Its been argued that only the "official" IAU document, IAU8389 announcing the discovery and the the IAU official name website [13] should be used as sources of information regarding the discovery of these saturnian satellites. The NASA/JPL press release [14], the corresponding SSI press release [ [15] and the BBC online article [16] according to some editors MUST NOT be used as sources of information. I think that an arguement can be made either way. However I believe that all reliable sources of information should be used rather than just "official" sources. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the International Astronomical Union is anything but a non-partisan, ethical, unbiased international body of scientific professionals but there are quite clearly some "offical" sources e.g. governments, religeous movements, companies etc whose information is quite clearly unreliable and other reliable "unofficial" sources have to also be used. As far as I'm concerned a NASA press release and a BBC new article are from sources that have some integrity and do check their sources. If accurate information is out there then it should be included in Wikipedia articles and we shouldn't just limit ourselves to "official" sources. And another thing why should be we bound by what the IAU decides anyway? Even some professional astronomers refuse to toe the IAU line in some cases e.g. [17]
Just to restate my position I believe we either follow both the letter and spirit of the IAU and the discoveror simply be the "Cassini Imaging Team" with no individuals named or we name names and Murray and Charnoz be mentioned along with the Cassini Imaging Team and Porco can be mentioned as Imaging Team Leader if desired. I don't believe its either fair or in the spirit of the IAU naming convention to mention Dr Porco but not Drs Charnoz and Murray.
As a parting thought Rebjon21 states that "..The BBC article has been incorrectly written and they have been notified of their mistake.." [18]. I've just checked the BBC article that names Murray & Charnoz as the first people to see Polydeuces - Methone & Pallene [19] and to my surprise the article has been changed to remove reference to Murray & Charnoz. The Google cached original version of the article where Charnoz and Murray are named can be obtained by following this link [20] (this cached version is from 14 June 2007 so it might be overwritten with the edited version by the time you follow the link). So the BBC appear to have changed a 2 year old web article following a complaint of inaccuracy when Charnoz is named in relation to Methone & Pallene in a NASA/JPL press release. Have the BBC been caving in to pressure from someone? And worse have they caved in without actually checking the facts? Syntaxis 16:35 UTC 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I have been made aware of the dispute over the issue of credit for the discovery of moons made with the Cassini cameras, and have decided to respond myself. There are some terrible misunderstandings within the postings on these pages, which need to be rectified.
Let me first give a sense of what a spacecraft team's work is like.
First, there is an enormous amount of work that goes into building a camera system like that on the Cassini spacecraft, and in ensuring that it is a scientifically useful instrument for studying the Saturn system. Once the cameras are built, there is of course the work of planning the sequences of images that it acquires, as well as building software, databases, processes, training staff personnel, etc, etc. etc. In the case of Cassini, there were 14 years of such work between the time the mission was started in 1990 and arrival at Saturn orbit in 2004. Many of those years were without a break: solid 10 and 12 hour days, week after week, month after month, with no vacations or holidays, just to be prepared for Saturn orbit insertion. And this is the case in general for all spacecraft missions nowadays: To be in a responsible position on such a mission is to have an extremely demanding, all-consuming profession.
During the latter part of those 14 years, the science team members were engaged in the planning of the science investigations. The Cassini imaging experiment alone involved many, many different types of scientific objectives that have guided the construction of the imaging sequences. Each objective has its own special design, involving image layout and timing, exposure times and filter selections, etc. Then there is all the negotiating work to be done in convincing other Cassini investigators of the necessity for the images being designed. Observing time is a precious commodity on a complex mission like Cassini. Negotiating with the other scientists, both on the imaging team and on the other science teams, took many hours of teleconference calls, every week for years on end.
All of this one might say is the `decisive' part of any successful observation: If the camera is not built properly, and if the image strategy and design are not done correctly and if one is not successful convincing others of the necessity for the observations, the objective can be entirely lost.
So, on a mission like Cassini, and indeed on most spaceflight missions, the analysis of the images is actually the least of the work entailed in making any discovery.
This is not to discredit those individuals working on our team who are poring over our images, trying to extract important scientific information from them. But to say that looking at images, and writing software to analyze them is the most `decisive' part of a discovery is patently not true. The decisive work was done over the previous decade and a half and generally involved many different people.
Thus, on an experiment as complicated as the Cassini Imaging Science experiment, no one person can be listed as the `discoverer' of new objects like rings and moons. The International Astronomical Union recognizing this particular aspect of spaceflight missions has established conventions that support this. The official credit *must* be the full team. If my name appears, it is not because I am the `discoverer' above other team members, but because I am the leader of the team. The usual practice, when a team is too large to mention every member, is to list the team leader followed by `et al.', or by `the Such-and-Such Team'. Stating `the Such-and-Such Team, led by So-and-So' is equivalent.
Secondly, it is of course our job to produce scientific results and to write scientific publications. But, to generate public interest in our work, it is also our job to release our results to the public in a readily-understandable way. Press releases are written to tell an appealing story in a way that engages the non-scientific public. Often, we bring out the human-element for this very purpose. But press releases are not meant to be the definitive word on the discovery and they are certainly in no way comprehensive sources of information. Often, what is written in them ends up being shown to be wrong, or at least eventually superceded by more thorough analyses and more accurate conclusions. And news stories based on them are therefore equally wrong or incomplete.
Hence, in the presence of other information, when there is no need to establish the timing of a discovery (because it can be established by other means, and in this case, the IAU Circulars establish the timing), referneces to press releases should be avoided.
I hope this clarifies the issue and puts it finally to rest.
In response to what Carolyn has added and Med's reply, I have the following comments. First, I see that Med has changed the pages related to the three satellites, despite Carolyn's explanation. Second, I think now that this is the definitive word and the attribution for the discovery of the three satellites should, rightly, go to the "Cassini Imaging Team led by Carolyn Porco", with Carolyn being named ONLY because she is the team leader NOT because she discovered the three satellites (Pallene, Methone, and Polydeuces) which is NOT what I have been claiming and I would never claim something that was clearly not true, especially something as important as the discovery of astronomical bodies orbiting Saturn. Can everyone involved in this dispute please look carefully at the following proposed sentence, what is being said, and the order of the words:
"It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team led by Carolyn Porco".
Please read that again. It (Pallene, Methone, and Polydeuces respectively) was DISCOVERED by the CASSINI IMAGING TEAM - i.e. NOT by Murray NOT by Charnoz and NOT by Carolyn, but discovered by the TEAM - i.e. the words "Cassini Imaging Team" follow directly after the word "discovered" so it is clear to everyone who reads the articles on Wikipedia that the TEAM discovered the three satellites not any one individual. As for Carolyn's name being included in this sentence, this adheres to normal scientific protocol and again it is clear in what capacity she is included in this sentence, i.e. as the team leader NOT the discover. Please look at the order of the words.
It is clear that no individual team member should be singled out for this discovery, since many, many were involved.
I would like to add that it is interesting why Syntaxis, and more importantly Med, feel so passionately about this issue. Surely if they did not have a vested and personal interest in this issue they would not continue to insist that Murray and Charnoz be mentioned. Do Syntaxis and Med know Charnoz and Murray I wonder? It is clearly inappropriate for someone to make changes based on personal preferences.
As for what Med has said about Hubble, Cassini doesn't work like Hubble. The individual scientists using Hubble only propose and use the images. They did NOT build the instruments they are using, and they didn't take 15 years out of their careers to devote to a mission. It is not appropriate to compare two dissimilar scientific endeavours.
First, I would like to say that I agree with what Volcanopele has written about Med's reprehensible threats and attacks. Surely we all want to sort this dispute out as amicably as possible, but resorting to attacks that are ugly will not achieve this. Let's focus on the matter in hand and not become personal, as this is not only unprofessional it is not helpful.
Second, for reasons Carolyn explained, press releases are not reliable sources of information. If we all care about accurate information, then that means we care about *complete* information. And mentioning Charnoz and Murray would be to mention only a small part of a very involved story, and therefore would be misleading and inaccurate.
But I have a suggested solution to this dispute.
Why don't we separate the discovery from the information about the team leader as this actually and symbolically disassociates the two? Porco's name would therefore be added as additional descriptive information about the Imaging Team, and nothing more. So the separation between the mention of the discovery and the fact that she leads the team should suffice. We can do this as follows?
METHONE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 1. Methone is also named Saturn XXXII. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
PALLENE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] in 2004 and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 2. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
POLYDEUCES
Polydeuces was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 5. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
The pages Pallene (moon), Methone (moon) and Polydeuces (moon) have been protected because of persistant edit warring and reverts.
I encourage involved users to edit the talk page, resolve their differences, and craft a common version which suits everybody. You are all grown scientists, you are intelligent enough to do this. Rama 13:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
So this is how Wikipedia works? MED states: "And i also strongly dislike manipulations like having a BBC article changed, this could have some unfortunate consequences for the person having pressured the BBC to do this." People attempt to win their arguments by threats and bullying? I'm absolutely appalled. I believe that this immediately disqualifies the individual calling himself Med. Whoever you are, you have no right to offer further commentary.
I will say that Voyager and Cassini simply do not work the way the Hubble and Spitzer (apparently) do, if what is written on these pages by others concerning those missions is accurate. Planetary programs have a different culture.
And as has been said already several times, any appearance of the team leader's name is not in the capacity of a discoverer. What has just been proposed by the individual RebJon is certainly agreeable to me.
And I hope this brings this issue to a close. - CP
For the record and for the avoidance of doubt, I am suggesting that we credit the discoveries of the moons to the Cassini Imaging Team. Period. In addition, and in a separate sentence that is totally unrelated to the discoveries, I suggest we add Carolyn's name as the leader of the Team as this is factually accurate and in no way distracts from or interferes with the preceding sentence relating to the discoveries of the moons. As for Med's vociferous response, I agree with Volcanopele that Med is being abusive. Volcanopele and I have calmly suggested that we try to resolve this dispute amicably, but clearly Med does not agree with us. Med is being totally unreasonable -- who is s/he to say 'this is not negotiable'?! Furthermore, the BBC wouldn't change something they knew was correct. Does Med take them for fools!??? Rama, can you please note that Med is behaving uncooperatively and erratically and that he or she is not helping us to resolve this dispute and in fact is escalating it by his or her attacks, which undermine not only the issue under discussion but the reputation of Wikipedia -- Rebjon21 23:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
By the way, i find weird that some people create new accounts just to defend Carolyn Porco's point. See Special:Contributions/CheshireCatCO, Special:Contributions/Fhqwhgads17 for instance. The first one having an IP from the University of Colorado… Med 00:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Now this has to stop. I do not want further personal attacks, provocations, or any form of attempts at discrediting people in particular. This is true for everybody. Med, be civil in your development. Rebjon21, stop provoking Med and please make genuine attempts to finding a compromise.
I already had to block three articles, that should be quite enough. The people involved in the discussion are apparently scientists, they should be mature enough to discuss things in a civil and honnest manner. Rama 08:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I heard about this interesting story some time ago. Basically the main issues seem to be : what are the well-established facts, and who does deserve some or most of the credit; and, as a corollary, how Wikipedia should handle this issue. This is a sociologically interesting question, and I can certainly testify of it, having witnessed several hot discussions in some moderate/big scientific collaborations on some related issues (who will sign the discovery paper ? How will the author list be sorted ? and so on). In my own field, it is widely known that several CMB and Big Bang related issues are quite scarsely credited to the proper persons (for example almost everyone in the US forget, or at least used to forget citing Lemaître as one of the founders of the so-called Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker metric — see the WP entry for some very basic introduction to this issue). So regarding these moons, I have some factual questions
Now, I have some more personal questions to Mrs Porco, if she happens to read this (and apologizing if this was already discussed somewhere) : what is your preferred option : citing the team only, you only, CM only, CM and the team, CM and you, you and the team, or both three ? In any case, how credit should be given ? Do you know CM's opinion on that matter ? Alain r 00:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry...I do not really know how to use Wikipedia, and so don't know how to indent in another response. This will have to do.
Since this has been addressed to me, I will answer. And the answer is:
Most of these questions are irrelevant, because they ignore what happened before the images even hit the ground, which was a lot of work on the parts of others. The work of CM and SC were important in these discoveries, but no more important or worthy of mention than others. Discoveries of this sort are all vetted by the team, and so we all discussed the significance of the results, whether or not we had adequate information to make an announcement, etc. We work as a team, and we get credit as a team. And I've given my opinion several times above as to how credit should be given in this case: to say `discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team' is the correct attribution. To mention the team leader name somewhere thereafter, as someone else suggested, is only an informational descriptor about the team, not about the discovery. As for the official proposal for the name of the moon, in this particular case I proposed the name Polydeuces, but that too is completely irrelevant and earns me no more credit than anyone else. Once again: the Cassini Imaging Team works as a team, and that's how credit for these kinds of discoveries gets attributed. To single out any one individual for one particular role they played in these discoveries is to deny the credit that is rightfully shared by all of us. - CP
I'm glad that some unnamed individual agrees, that to put one team member out front -- ie, to pry apart the team agreement and single out one member -- is not appropriate. This is why I think it should be left 'discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team'. After that, to include Carolyn's name is just simple journalistic practice...to put the head of an organization or team in the article describing that organization or team.
I hope my compromise statements (below) meet with approval:
Why don't we separate the discovery from the information about the team leader as this actually and symbolically disassociates the two? Porco's name would therefore be added as additional descriptive information about the Imaging Team, and nothing more. So the separation between the mention of the discovery and the fact that she leads the team should suffice. We can do this as follows?
METHONE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 1. Methone is also named Saturn XXXII. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
PALLENE
It was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team [3][4] in 2004 and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 2. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
POLYDEUCES
Polydeuces was discovered by the Cassini Imaging Team and given the temporary designation S/2004 S 5. The Cassini Imaging Team is led by Carolyn Porco.
After all, you have to admit: The Imaging Team as a whole has made remarkable discoveries about Saturn, we owe them a lot, and Carolyn deserves mention as their leader.
I thought that I'd try to find some indication of the IAU's policy for attributing discovery of new satellites. And I did indeed find the relevant information [24], the relevant bit is the very last paragraph in the page .."When a satellite has been discovered through the efforts of a large scientific team, the list of individual team members may be too long to include all contributors. In such cases, credit for the discovery will go to the science team." Note that this is a "convention" not a "rule" and it does not state that the credit must go to the team but that if the list of people is "too long" to include everyone then the credit goes to the science team. I believe that the clear intention here is that either everyone who contributed to the discovery is named or no-one is named and the credit is given to the science team collectively. (And once again I point out that its not "the XXX Science Team led by YYY" since this names an individual but doesn't name all the individuals who contributed which is contrary to the convention).
The question that immediately occurs to me is how many contributors is too many? The offical IAU page, [25] list 8 people (B. Gladman, J. Kavelaars, J.-M. Petit, H. Scholl, M. Holman, B.G. Marsden, P. Nicholson and J.A. Burns) as the discoverers the the saturnian satellites Ymir, Paaliaq, Tarvos, Ijiraq and 7 others. So 8 individuals aren't too many to be named. Another relevant question is what is meant by "scientific team"? Is this just the scientists who analyse that data and publish papers in peer reviewed journals. In the Cassini context I believe this would be the 13 competetively selected Team Members and the Team associates who either work directly for Team Members on Cassini data or are invited to join the Team after the selection process because of the scientific contribution that can make. I'll call these people the "imaging scientists", a list of them is basically the author list of the ISS Team Reports [26]. The Team Members stay the same but there seems to be some turnover of team associates over time which isn't surprising. It varies slightly but the list is about 30 or so. Alternately does "scientific team" mean the imaging scientists plus all the other people (I'll call them "others") involved in either the Cassini Project generally or the imaging experiment specifically. Past practice in the astronomical community appears to be to name the "imaging scientists" plus specific individual "others" when appropriate.
As for the question of whether the actual work involved in satellite discoveries was/is done by a handful of the "imaging scientists" (probably less than 9) or the entire 30 odd "imaging scientists" plus all the "others" is something I won't even try to go into right now.
And a final thought. What happens if a new satellite is discovered in publically available Cassini ISS images that are obtained via the Planetary Data System [27] and the people who make the discovery aren't members of the Cassini Imaging Team? Will the IAU insist that the credit go to the Cassini Imaging Science Team or will the people who actually made such a discovery get the credit? I notice that the credit for the discovery of the saturnian satellite Pan is given to Mark Showalter [28], this was made in 1990 from publically available Voyager images taken in 1980-81, and not the Voyager Science Team.
And once again I point out that, to quote Rama, (Wikipedia) "does not seek to upset external conventions, but it is not bound by them either". We don't have to follow whatever decisions have been made by the IAU or the Cassini Imaging Team, if information is accurate and appropriate then we should consider including it Syntaxis 16:21 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Wiki Madness
I am a science journalist with an academic background in astronomy – specifically, planetary astronomy. I’ve been very fortunate to have covered stories about everything from project Apollo to the Voyager spacecrafts and now Cassini. I’ve also learned from some of the best: the late Drs. Harold Masursky, Gene Shoemaker, Carl Sagan and current veterans like Gentry Lee -- gentlemen and great scientists all.
When a friend suggested I check this dispute out – I was frankly disinterested. More important fish to fry and deadlines to meet. I am not very familiar with the Wikipedia culture though I do use the site sometimes as a starting point when developing story ideas.
I was appalled to see that the tone of this discussion is more typical of what one might expect to find on some science fiction discussion group. It’s one thing to have an opinion, another to engage in childish personal attacks and stubbornly defend contrived, agenda-driven points of view. Dr. Carolyn Porco is one of the world’s finest planetary scientists and has worked with passion and dedication over many years now to bring us all those fantastic Cassini images. I don’t understand why she shouldn’t be acknowledged as the head of the team. She certainly deserves it, and it is relevant to the issue of any Cassini discovery -- that the team was (and is) under her leadership.
It has been clear in my dealings with the Cassini Imaging Team in the course of my job that they are exactly that – a team. Any attribution should therefore be to the team. But noting that she leads the team is also important, since the buck truly stops with her. To imply that this is some kind of ego quest by her or that somehow she is trying to deny credit to other deserving individuals is utterly ridiculous. The most egregious postings here had the tone of a fourth grader saying something along the lines of, “if you get yours then I get mine.” Well no, not when one view is so obviously personally motivated to discredit Dr. Porco and remove her from mention.
As for the so-called Wikipedia neutrality – I see absolutely no evidence of it here – just a lot of personal agendas. Leave Dr. Porco alone and go do something constructive. Lassenmichael 05:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)lassenmichael
Sorry Rama that I used too many adjectives. I will use fewer (not less) now. As for says who? How about Carl Sagan and Gene Shoemaker? I will leave you with a simple thought: Individual team members shouldn't be singled out for discovering anything and a team leader is mentioned simply because she is just that. Have fun with the rest of your discussion.-- Lassenmichael 15:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)lassenmichael
Given that this article has been locked for several days, I believe it is appropriate to poll the editors here to see if we can at least decided one something rather than continue to allow the articles to be locked. For this, we should use Preferential voting. Each editor gets two votes: you can vote twice for one selection if you strongly prefer it, or you can vote once for two selection, if you want to voice support for two selections. I think we should vote this way since there are two what I guess you could call opposite positions and one "compromise" position. The choices are:
In this case only the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis.
In this case the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis, and either Carl Murray, Carolyn Porco, or Sébastien Charnoz will be described as having seen these moons first.
In this case only the "Cassini Imaging Team" or "Cassini Imaging Science Team" will be referred to as the discoverer of Polydeuces, Pallene, Methone, and Daphnis. In a separate sentence or clause, Carolyn Porco will be referred to as the leader of the imaging team.
it quite ridiculous that some people came up with certian conclusions, but the fact is fact, it's Carolyn porco and the mighty Cassini Imaging team that discovered the moon. May be some other guys find this moon. I appreciate his efforts. But IAU has its own laws and guidelines. so to sum up i vote for Cassini Imaging team under the leadership of respected carolyn porco.
Vipinmaars 20:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC) the credit for the discovery of Saturn's moon Polydeuces for no doubt goes to Carolyn Porco and the cassini Imaging team. According to me all other arguments are just ridiculous.
i would like to congratulate Carolyn Porco and her team for this wonderful accomplishments as far as the debate is concerned, its a waste of time.
Delving back in here, Charnoz's own wikipedia entry even says "By using a numerical code he wrote for an automatic satellite-detection (among the hundreds of images of the ISS camera system), he helped the Imaging Team to discover the two smallest known moons of the Saturn system in 2004[1],[2],[3],[4]: Methone and Pallene." Sounds like he himself is adhering to the conventions spelled out of "team first", making this whole arguement even more ridiculus. On a bio page that may make sense. I thought I would point that out in the name of consistancy. It might have some relevence here. Dusty14most 10:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
There were 3 double votes under Option #3 that were removed. Why did Rama remove those and leave the other double votes alone? Or is it that he removed the votes from the one option he dislikes? This is vote tampering. It is clear, even with the double votes gone, that Option #3 has won. So contest is over. Let's go with that. Rebjon21 14:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I have been dropping in on this exchange every once and a while, and have received emails from individuals from all over the globe who also have been reading this discussion, and I must say, from my own reading and from what I've been told, I find what's transpired here both eye-opening and disturbing.
The so-called `moderators' have more than demonstrated their lack of impartiality by removing double votes from certain categories but not from others, preventing other people from voting (which conveys the very loud message that no one else is allowed to participate in this discussion), altering the content of the `locked' pages even after they've been locked, and then, of course, constructing the most contrived and contorted arguments in support of an invalid, biased stance. The contents of this exchange make it patently clear that Wikipedia does indeed operate by its own conventions, and ones that appear to follow the personal whims of a few rogue individuals.
To those who have been as dismayed as I have been at this, you may be relieved to hear that a new on-line astronomical encyclopedia is being created, called Encyclopedia of the Cosmos, which will be edited by experts only. This encyclopedia will be part of the Digital Universe, an education initiative of the Digital Universe Foundation, a non-profit organization (
http://www.dufoundation.org). The goal of the Digital Universe is to organize a worldwide network of scholars to create a subset of the Web in which high-quality information is well organized and readily available as a free public service.
So there is hope that accurate and reliable information, vetted by people who understand and respect the need for accuracy and reliability, will eventually be on-line.
In the meantime and for the record, I will say that it doesn't matter to me personally one way or the other whether my name is called out as the team leader of the Cassini imaging experiment. And to repeat what I've said before, no one individual can be rightfully singled out in these discoveries as they were the work of many individuals. What matters is that the credit for the discovery goes to the entire team and the entire team alone. So, while I am touched by all of those who voiced their support for calling out my name as team leader, the obvious course of action to take in order to get by this impasse is to simply remove the names of any and all individuals, including mine, and move on.
Also for the record, and in response to a comment made above, I will say that I do indeed participate heavily in the research conducted with the Cassini Imaging experiment, from the design, planning, and execution of the imaging sequences, to the analysis and interpretation of the images after they hit the ground. And that includes the searches and discoveries of new satellites, among other research topics I am involved in (like ring structure and photometry, and the Enceladus plumes). Yes, being a team leader and directing CICLOPS is a *very* large management job, but I didn't work for the 14 years before getting into Saturn orbit so that I could merely wave a baton. I am a scientist first. That is my passion, and that's what I (still) do.
Hopefully, this will now put the lid on this matter. #
CarolynPorco
18:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Polydeuces (moon), Pallene (moon) and Methone (moon) are now unprotected. My appologies for the not doing it yesterday, the thing had slipped off my mind. Good continuation to everybody. Rama 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Pallene_(moon)#Proactivity. Urhixidur 19:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)he was a hero of greek mytyhs
I've just uploaded an audio recording of the article. Please let me know if I've mispronounced anything. :-) -- Mangst ( talk) 16:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Does this last phrase mean that the difference between P's and D's distances from Saturn varies by that much, or something else? — Tamfang ( talk) 03:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Etriusus ( talk · contribs) 23:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Alright, grabbing this review. I'll finish this in a bit. 🏵️
Etrius (
Us)
23:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
One possible explanation is that Polydeuces's eccentricity is primordial; its orbit was initially eccentric when it formed and has remained that way sinceSimplify sentence, too many words to say something rather simple.
Comment: That's all from me, page is on hold. 🏵️
Etrius (
Us)
02:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Nrco0e, at this time I do not see any additional issues within GA criteria. Article passes. Congrats on another GA, this was an easy review and the page was incredibly well written. 🏵️ Etrius ( Us) 06:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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