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I noticed that the entire Vosem Chart was deleted. This includes the Vosem Chart article as well as the link from this page. I missed the delete debate, so what happened?
Jmabel 01:43, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
Tim, this makes a good attempt to be fair but it overlooks a couple key points. There are a variety of political spectra, but most people have a clear concept of the one to which "left" and "right" refer. In fact, if you look at the one presented by the advocates for self-government, you will notice that the horizontal axis is the same left-right spectrum everyone else uses. So while people may debate over the precise definition of that axis, its existence is not nearly so controversial.
The other thing is that the particular diagram to which you refer is fairly non-discriminatory. Inasmuchas it can't distinguish between libertarianism and anarchism - one of which has policies much like capitalism, one of which has policies much like socialism - and again between fascism and marxism. In short, they have identified different ideologies by pinching the diagram off into a diamond, which is probably more for the purposes of popularizing libertarianism (something the site obviously tries to do) then accuracy. -- JoshuaGrosse
Joshua - The two axes are 'personal self-government' and 'economic self-government'. Which is the horizontal axis?
Economic self-government: the one that showed up as horizontal on the chart, of course. :)
But personal self-government is equally horizontal on the chart. The axes lie parallel like two AA batteries in a walkman: The positive next to the others negative.
The diagram can be represented like this: ++ +- -+ --
Oh...I see what they're doing. In that case the corners of the graph are grossly mislabeled - a completely totalitarian government is authoritarian whether or not they allow a free market. But all in all, it's the square is suggested, only tilted in a non-standard way. Usually left-right is portrayed as an economic spectrum. I'm very sorry for the confusion. I still say the source is biased, though. -- JoshuaGrosse
Also - I do not agree that there is similarity between socialism and anarchism. As I would define them, socialism attempts to maintain social order with political institutions, and without cultural or economic institutions. Anarchism seeks to maintain social order with economic and cultural institutions, and without political institutions. As they are conventionally understood, socialism means more government, anarchism no government. So even if you don't like my definition, common usage place these two at opposite extremes.
Just as libertarian is usually applied in a narrow sense to exclude libertarian socialists (~anarcho-syndicalists), it seems anarchism is usually applied in a narrow sense to exclude anarcho-capitalists (~free market libertarians). It's in this sense that I was using the term. Obviously anarcho-syndicalism has strong ties to socialism and free market libertarianism has strong ties to capitalism, but the two systems aren't distinguished on the diamond. A square or circle would be much better in terms of actually representing ideologies.
Other than those, though, I don't really have any complaints other than perhaps a slight editorial tone (fear the future and wish to control it). And, of course, none of this is meant as negative criticism, my being too uncertain to try writing political articles myself. :) -- JoshuaGrosse
Tim, you wrote:
I think we need to find a better word for The Right than "conservatism" because that means, after all, something quite different in countries where the tradition for decades has been socialism. Perhaps there isn't a single word--perhaps it's simply "support for traditional values and some support for capitalism."
Fairandbalanced 01:57, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
N8chz -- I am not sure that the "dove/hawk" distinction is the same that I was trying to make regarding political violence. I was thinking more of the "Gandhi/Arafat" axis: not should our nation use war to enforce its policies abroad? but rather should our party use violence to get what it wants domestically?
I think both are useful, though the words "pacifist" and "militant" are too fuzzy to clarify between them. (For one thing, they aren't even really opposites. A pacifist is someone who rejects violence for any purpose, but a militant isn't someone for whom violence is the first answer -- it's someone who believes political violence has become necessary in the present situation.)
For the "dove/hawk" distinction regarding aggression abroad, I can't think of any good "formal" words. Those two are good, though. -- FOo
A couple points of concern. One, the association of Liberalism with Socialism isn't particularly accurate nor unbiased. United States Liberalism does not call for government control of most industries.
Second and more broadly, I think the article gives far too much weight to the libertarian idea of a spectrum. It's another valid spectrum, of course, but the weight of text given to it gives it more validity than the others, which does not particularly represent the cultural importance of that idea in US, or certainly Western, politics. - User:Gacohen
The "Historical Origin" is questionable, since the "first estate" was not the nobility -- it was the Church. The nobility were the second estate. Further, I was under the impression that the terms "left" and "right" dated to after the Revolution, with the revolutionaries to the left and the counter-revolutionaries to the right. -- FOo
I think the article should cite who divided up the political spectrum in America as follows, because it bears no resemblance to what I read in the newspapers and see and TV every day:
Is this the Libertarian view of the political spectrum, or what?
I thought in America the left-right spectrum was mostly the "liberal left" agenda vs. the "conservative right" agenda. That is, each side has a whole laundry list of things it wants, and I think they should be listed specifically first, before venturing into an analysis that tries to break down these positions into "principles" of some sort.
Also, I don't think it's correct that conservatives don't care about "outcomes", as the article currently characterizes them. So it would be more neutral to say that Mr. X says that liberals care about outcomes while...
-- Uncle Ed 19:15 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
Both these assumptions are not supported by the article, which clearly lists "fair outcomes versus fair processes" as an opinion, and does not state that conservatives are right wing. Martin
Some comments on the two-axis section:
Axlrosen 18:29, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I'm a little confused by the latest edits by Wiwaxia:
Axlrosen 21:56, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Wiwaxia, I agree with Fubar, Afrocentrism or Black Nationalism seems very similar to or a subset of nationalism (though perhaps the definiton of "nationalism" in the article needs to be expanded). Plus, even if we kept it, it needs a better name than "movements like Afrocentrism". I'm going to delete it, but feel free to fix it up if you think it's still viable.
How about my question on the Pournelle chart? Can you fix that part up so it clearer?
Axlrosen 21:33, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"and those at the bottom reduced to blind, celebratory attachment to their ideology for its own sake -- the fascist who will now do anything to celebrate "greatness", the anarchist given to tossing bombs around for the fun of it" <--- Not all anarchists and fascists, only those who fit this description
I removed this line from the explanation of left vs. right:
After reading the Positive Liberty page, this doesn't sound like left vs. right but libertarianism vs. authoritarianism. So if anything it belongs in the Alternative Spectra list. But I'm not sure how to phrase it. It's not Negative Liberty vs. Positive Liberty, because almost everyone is for Negative Liberties. It's more like whether Positive Liberties should exist or not.
Also, according to the Positive Liberty page, "how much participation an individual should have" is an alternate and controversial definition, not the main feature of Positive Liberty.
-- Maybe Positive Liberty is poorly defined, but it is certinaly worth a mention. Negative Liberty is things that the Government doesn't stop you from doing, Positive Liberty is where the Government actively allows you to do something. So a belief in Positive Liberty means that a Government would support welfare, a National Health service, etc. These are things that the right (with the acception of very left-wing paternalistic conservatives (who support welfare for a different reason)) supports.
Slizor.
Under the various characterizations of left versus right User:Slizor's recent edit removed:
Replacing these with:
I don't have any real problem with the addition (although I would argue that this would be a contingent characteristic of leftists and rightists, not what would characterize someone as such: for example, Ronald Reagan seems to have been essentially optimistic bout human nature, but that does not make him a man of the left). However, I think the deletions are entirely unjustified. In particular, the views of Hoffer and Sowell seem to deserve mention simply becuase of whose views they are. As for the one on religion, it's arguable, and I'd let go of that if there is no consensus to restore it (after all, the words "religious" and "secular" are perfectly good words, why confuse the matter by saying that "right" and "left" are somehow their stalking horses). I think the "Fair outcomes (left) versus fair processes (right)" is entirely justifiable: Look at the rhetoric of the fight over Affirmative Action in the US.
In short, unless someone states a strong case to the contrary, I plan to restore the Hoffer, Sowell, and outcomes/processes bullet points in about 24 hours. I don't want an edit war here, so please let's talk if you have a problem with that. -- Jmabel 01:15, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
-- Jmabel 07:34, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A recent edit by User:Fairandbalanced changed:
to
Certainly "the United States" (my wording) was too narrow, because Canadian liberals are center-left; as for substituting "North American" rather than "the United States and Canada", I honestly don't know how the term is used in Mexico. I suspect it is not heavily used there, or I would probably know. I'm not sure: in a context like this, do most people read "North American" as including or excluding Mexico? I suppose British "Liberals" are also center-left; I gather, though, that Australian "Liberals" are rather on the right, so we can't say "English-speaking world"...
More important, though, I believe that most European "Liberal" parties are center-right. I'm pretty comfortable saying that about Germany and I'd be surprised if it were otherwise in the Netherlands or Belgium. Could someone who knows Continental European politics please weigh in? The point of my sentence (which I now see wasn't strictly accurate) was that there are parts of the world where "Liberal" means center-left and parts where it means center right; also that North American (US and Canadian) Liberalism is a very different matter than European Liberalism. Again, my sentence was not on the mark, but I want to get these points into that paragraph or thereabouts. I also want to have my facts in a row before I re-edit.
Fairandbalanced, do you have any further thoughts on this now that I've clarified what I was driving at?
-- Jmabel 07:55, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
My idea was to limit the definition to English-language countries because no translation is perfect. So far it appears the left-handed version applies in the North Hemisphere, the right-handed version in the South. :^) Fairandbalanced 21:25, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm still unhappy with the dominance of the Nolan chart. I certainly feel there should be less on this POV (and very biased) chart. Slizor 10:17, 2004 Mar 19 (UTC)
The two recent additions to the left-right dichotomy seem to me to be pretty useless:
Neither has any attribution as to who has characterized left and right as meaning this, and both seem absurd in terms of the original use during the French Revolution: there were advocates of both of these positions on both the left and right. To state what should be obvious, Robespierre -- certainly a paragidmatic leftist -- was no friend of individual liberty over national security, nor did he keep the government out of the realm of morality (consider the Cult of the Divine Being).
All of this is better discussed at Left-Right politics. I'd really rather see this section reduced and cross referenced to where the topic is more seriously engaged. Does anyone have a problem with that? -- Jmabel 18:31, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
As wikipedia defines it, authoritarianism describes "a state which enforces strong and sometimes oppressive measures against the population". Here it used to describe the opposite of a libertarian. I fall into that side of the spectrum, supporting liberal economics but being somewhat socially conservative. However, I don't advocate anything not espoused by either the Democrats or Republicans, certainly not strong or oppressive measures aginst the population, and nowhere near what was done by regimes known as authoritarian. Could the term be changed to something more accurate, less biased, such as the original 'populist', or the more recent 'communitarian'? -juan, 9:13 am, 6/18
Does anybody else think
is already covered by
and
or is it just me? Harvestdancer
Ok, I replaced the term 'authoritarian' in the text with 'communitarian', which I also wrote a rough article about at Communitarianism (ideology). The chart, however, still needs to be updated, and some of the text possible should be changed further to reflect the change of terms.
Jmabel, if you're still there, would you mind taking a look at the article on communitarianism, particularly the chart?
I found a two axis model which predates the Nolan Chart by 6 years. As it is no longer the first two-axis political spectrum it has lost its historical significance and with it, its reason to remain in the article. The Nolan Chart is clearly an ideologically biased chart with little influence on the outside world, it is insignificant. However, I expect that someone will add in something about the Nolan Chart again - keep it short it is ideologically and realistically (and now historically) marginalised.
One other thing: Is the Pournelle Chart the same as the Eysenck chart? If so does it deserve a mention? Slizor 12:23, 2004 Jun 30 (UTC)
Somebody thinks the opposite of what I did. Better say nothing than something exactly wrong, eh? Comments on this sentance? Sam [ Spade] 20:49, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I disagree that any side can be classified as one or the other. For instance, both neo-conservatives and socialists are very commited to the idea of "community". There are also major differences between say a left-wing anarchist and a Stalinist on that issue, even though on a sole axis they would be in very similar places.
Also: "Whether the state should prioritize equality (left) or hierarchy (right)."
People on the right do not necessarily believe in hierarcy, right-wing anarchists come to mind. Shouldn't it be something about economic equality and economic inequality? "Whether the state should prioritize security (right) or liberty (left)."
Again, right-wing anarchists come to mind. "Whether the government's involvement with moral issues should be interventionist(right) or minimal (left)."
And again. "Fair outcomes (left) versus fair processes (right)."
See, now I have a major gripe with this one. Certainly any ideology which does not fully embrace capitalism will not see it as a "fair process" - Capitalism is distinctly unfair. Slizor 21:09, 2004 Jul 3 (UTC)
Well, it seems the right wants to control what you do privately (morals) and the left wants to control what you do publicly (environment, etc.) That's what I was thinking. I dunno about the economics, seems no side left or right wants laissez-faire economy. -- DanielCD 22:51, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
There's an awful lot of "nevertheless" and "however" in the article. It reads more like a debate than like an exposition of what significant thinkers have thought. Not very encyclopedic. I'm busy elsewhere, but someone relatively neutral should take a shot at editing this. -- Jmabel 01:39, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
"The effect of this new axis is that those who have very different views with regard to authority, but have the same "left-right" view (people like Stalin and Noam Chomsky), can be distinguished."
Noam Chomsky has the same views with regard to authority as Stalin. -- Fogger 09:38, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Based on things Donald Rumsfeld said about Saddam Hussein in the mid-1980s, it would be exactly as easy to say the same about Rumsfeld having "the same views on authority as Saddam Hussein". But, not being a demagogue, I wouldn't make that assertion. -- Jmabel 02:51, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence from the article:
This was changed by an anon to the exact oppostite, and since it can actually be convincingly argued both ways, I don't think it makes much sense as a criterion for distinguishing left and right. Feel free to disagree and reinsert :p -- Ferkelparade π 07:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
... and not just in this article. Here, and across Wikipedia terms used include 'communitarian' 'statist' and 'authoritarian'. I believe this should be unified under the term communitarian, unless it could be shown that other, distinct ideologies exist there. First, statism is defined as wikipedia as "central government that implements economic planning, or policy." This applies to liberalism as well, and is in no way unique to this quadrant. Authoritarianism is similar, decribed as prescribing "strong and sometimes oppressive measures against the population". This could be liberal, communitarian, or conservative. Both of these being offensive terms, I find it a bit biased that they are ascribed solely to this quadrant... maybe it has something to do with the fact the chart was taken directly from a libertarian website, the ideological opposite. Finally, communitarianism is an actual ideology, wheras statism and authoritarianism are not. Juan Ponderas 03:39, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
? Communism isn't liberal, and Nazism isn't conservative. Sam [ Spade] 21:32, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I donno, do you have more stuff to say? ;) Sam [ Spade] 02:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the list under "Multiplicity of interpretation of the left-right axis" User:Silverback changed "Support for the economic interests of the poor (left) or the rich (right)," to "Whether the government should support the economic security of the poor (left) or allow citizens freedom to spend their money for other purposes as well(right)." He re-reverted with the comment, "revert, it is a leftist POV that the right is motivation by favoring the rich rather than the principles of freedom, are you from Europe or something?". I think the latter part of this speaks for itself, apparently he thinks U.S.-centric right-wing view is simply "correct".
I believe that the original wording is a NPOV way of stating one of the ways these terms are used. I believe that his substituted text is nothing of the sort:
I am not unilaterally reverting again at this time because I try very hard to avoid edit wars with anyone other than an outright vandal, but I would greatly appreciate if someone would endorse my view on this by reverting. Also, further dialogue is welcome. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:47, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
(In case you hadn't noticed, Jmabel, Silverback is rather opinionated when it comes to politics. I'd strongly encourage you to forego debating the issues on this page, no matter how tempting it may be. Coming to an agreement about an NPOV article is a small miracle; coming to an agreement about who's right in politics is just too much to ask. – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 02:43, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC))
I'm certainly willing to work toward NPOV. In any event, we have to start from context: there is no one true meaning of "left" and "right". They are malleable, vague terms. What we should be doing is documenting how these words have been used, preferably by significant writers or significant political actors, not just some views people on the left and people on the right happen to have.
I certainly prefer Quadell's second wording here to either his first or to Silverback's, but I think it misses the point: while this may be a difference between typical left and right stances, it is not what anyone I've ever heard of considers to define "left" and "right". The point of the original wording -- and it lacked citation, and that is a problem, and should be addressed -- is that many important writers (mostly on the left) have considered this economic class issue to define left and right. Nonetheless, I have no problem with it as a compromise for now: at least it is evenly balanced, as a statement without attribution should be.
What would make me happiest, though, is if we could get this list (and the one at left-right politics) to consist entirely of cited definitions given by significant writers or significant political actors. And that will take legwork, and I've got a lot else I'm working on right now, but I will try to get to it some time. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:49, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
The recently added section Westernized Political Spectrum strikes me as almost completely incoherent. Maybe I'm just tired, but I doubt it. I don't want to just delete this in case there is something coherent here. Could someone besides its author take a good look at it and respond here? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:35, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Harvestdancer 23:07, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would not say it is at all true that reactionaries "believe in no change". Very often they are trying to restore a real or imagined status quo ante, which requires a great deal of change. For example, the few remaining outright white supremacists in the US South are reactionaries who wish to make enormous changes. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
Hm, I'm not sure on "conservative" and "liberal". It seems to me that "radical" and "reactionary" might work better. Liberal and conservative require a disambugation as you are using traditional definitions instead of political definitions on a political page. That's not very ... useful. Also, this is the "Alternative spectra" section, not the "right left" section. Liberals and conservatives might find these designations to be POV. Harvestdancer 07:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To label a reactionary as being opposed to change is incorrect. Reactionaries do make that claim but, they always follow that initial statement with such statements as "I just want to get us back to the days when the government was not involved in the economy, back before the New Deal of FDR;" "I just want to get us back to the true democracy as envisioned by our founding fathers;" "I just want to get us back to the days when men were men and women were women and you could tell the difference." Notice that the present situation is unacceptable to the reactionary and he wants to change it. And the change that the reactionary wants is, to go back in time. Advocating an effort, to take the society as it is presently consituted, and return it to a condition that existed in the past is to advocate enormous change. It can be as much change as the radical is professing in his effort to move a society in the direction of change off into the future for something that doesn't presently exist. So both the radical and the reactionary are unhappy with the condition that exists in a society and wants to change that condition immediately. Its just that they are going in opposite directions--one into the future, the other into the past. It is the conservative that prefers to maintain the status quo not the reactionary. One problem is that reactionaries don't call themselves reactionaries. They call themselves conservatives. Today, correctly labeled, the US is governed by reactionaries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PaganBaby ( talk • contribs) 11 Dec 2005.
Portrayed that way, the Political compass does look more like the Eysenck model. I think, though, it is just a clever illusison. Take a look at this model on their website. This version has the axes drawn in, economic and social. That is identical to the Nolan chart. Your version, and the one they use later on the site, use the resulting ideologies as axes in themselves, which is just another representation of the Nolan chart.
Furthermore, I think we need an actual image of the Eysenck model. The one beside it, described below as 'similar', is actually very different. They both have a left-right axis, but in the Eysenck model the second axis is between democracy and authoritarianism- essentially, the 'political liberty' axis of the Friesian chart. This is very, very different from the axis between government control and libertarianism portrayed in the current image. Juan Ponderas 22:52, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
That model mentioned in the Eysenck section, which is pictured- do we know the creator of the chart? Juan Ponderas
I asked, before the archive, if the Vosem Chart should still be included here. Since the archive happened before anyone responded, I'll bring it upagain. Yes, it's one person's article on a webpage, but it is interesting. It certainly doesn't merit a separate Wikipedia article, and the separate article was deleted, but perhaps it does deserve one or two lines near the end of Multi-Axis Models and an external link. Harvestdancer 18:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone recently added text claiming that one of the definitions of the left/right contrast is "Whether it is best to subsidise the weak (left) or strong (right)." There is no citation for this, and it sounds propagandistic. If no one can provide a citation in the next 48 hours, I intend to delete it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
It probably deserves to be removed for being uncited - but how exactly is it "propagandistic"? Do you think that POV is somehow less truthful than the others presented? matturn 10:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've removed it. As for why propagandistic: no one on the right would overtly say "we believe in subsidizing the strong". -- Jmabel | Talk 23:02, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps, although you don't hear the left overtly saying "we believe in subsidising the weak" too much either. The right does make similar statements though, helping "young achievers" and the like. And just because a group may not overtly support a statement, doesn't mean it isn't at the core of their beliefs. Plenty of socialist parties in the west during the Cold War would've liked their countries to become communist but couldn't dream of saying so, for instance. A modern example is the heavily Christian "Family First" party in Australia, which completely denies being theist at all. matturn 03:30, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1,790,000 Google hits for political+spectrum+theory; it is in fact a theory, not unlike evolution or creationism with its dissenters from primary premises & validity. Nobs01 21:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia seems inconsistent in whether 'chart' and 'model' are to be capitalized or not. What would be more correct? Juan Ponderas
There's another dimension that should be mentioned under "Alternative spectra", but I can't think of the right words in which to describe it. This is the spectrum which deals with the source of state authority.
On the one end, there's the view which says that state authority is ultimately delegated from the people; thus, that government cannot have any rights that are not delegated to it, for instance by a constitution.
On the other end, there's what Popper called the organic concept of the state; that is, state authority as essential and original, as found in Plato's Republic and in Fascist politics. This is not quite the same as monarchy or the divine right of kings -- or, for that matter, the Chinese concept of the mandate of heaven -- although it similarly serves to legitimate the holding of power by whoever happens to hold power at the moment.
In political philosophy, this might simply be called liberalism vs. anti-liberalism, although that may be to take the Popperian point of view too much. (Not to mention the confusion that is the word "liberalism" today! -- and "classical liberalism" is too much bound up in libertarian economics.) Another expression for the first end is popular sovereignty; that is, the people as the source of authority; we could use organic sovereignty for the other end, but I'm not sure if that word has provenance.
Thoughts? -- FOo 18:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The page on Ideology uses a two-dimensional model to describe political ideologies. This is interesting for a couple reasons; the model is not listed in this article, and that article uses that model as an expression of fact. See an opening statement: "Political ideologies have two dimensions:".
A) Should the article be mentioned here? It traces back, to my knowlege, tp a site called Moral Politics. B) How should that page be handled? Should the descriptions of ideologies with that model be moved to an article on that model, replacing the content in Ideology with a description of political ideologies that is not reliant on a particular model? -( Juan Ponderas
Should the Political Compass, as possibly the most well-known graph of political views, have a seperate part for it? Also, why is the Nolan Chart given as inspiration for it? Unless this is noted by their site then I think it should be removed.
Slizor 15:57, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Slizor 11:32, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any way to tell readers that the Worlds Smallest blah, blah, blah, is just a load of crap without being too POV.
If you look at the Pournelle Chart article it says that his chart was created in 1962 - two years before the Esyenck model. This would make the Pournelle Chart the first two dimensional axis spectrum, however the Esyenck model is more similar to the generic model used by many people (which is very similar to the Political Compass.) How should this be resolved? The Esyenck model is not particually famous outside of the Psychology field and not particularly influential, but the Pournelle chart is very very strange - the traditional left-right lines are horizontal. Slizor 23:49, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Given lack of citation, and the fact that people keep changing which side of this they consider to be "left" or "right", I am removing this from the article as probably useless. Citations (either way around) welcome, but till then I think we are better off without it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:05, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
All of the items on the list are subject to double interpretation, if you wanted consistency they would all have to go. Economic interventionism is usually a left-wing theme, enforcement of traditional moral and cultural values by the state is a classic right-wing theme. Ruzmanci 21:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the following from the article:
<Begin cut material>
Up versus Down: a "Vertical" Linear Spectrum
Rejecting the notion that Communism and Naziism are opposites (since both are minor variants of hard-core socialism), and also the very ambiguous and perhaps totally illusory distinction often made between "social liberties" and "economic freedoms" as well, this spectrum seeks to measure merely the extent to which government and criminality impinge on the freedom of peaceful (non-criminal) adult citizens to own, use, and control their persons and properties by indicating relative points signifying different degrees of such coercive interference.
An Up versus Down "Peg" Spectrum
Because of confusions arising from propaganda and contradictory definitions, perhaps we should abandon the left-right spectrum and instead have a VERTICAL "spectrum" of UP and DOWN -- Up to the maximum of individual liberty consistent with law and order, or Down to the maximum of political interventionism (and minimum of freedom).
|10 The Laissez-Faire Republic (No Meddling with Peaceful Adult Citizens)
| | 9 Ayn Rand, George Reisman, & most libertarians
| | 8 Thomas Jefferson; JBS; U.S.A. prior to 1914 (no income tax, no Fed);
| | 7 Rush Limbaugh; National Review; American Spectator; YAF
| | 6 U.S. Republican Party (Average Position)
| | 5 U.S. Democrat Party (Average Position)
| | 4 European Welfare States
| | 3 Mussolini's Italy; Franco's Spain
| | 2 Nazi Germany under Hitler; Yugoslavia under Tito
| | 1 Red China under Mao; the former USSR; Castro's Cuba; N. Korea
| | 0 "Ingsoc" as described in Orwell's book 1984 (Total Control over the Citizens)]
Since individual liberty is generally inversely proportional to the Degree of Government Intervention in the private affairs and voluntary (market) relations of peaceful people, the highest level of freedom is at the top of the spectrum and the lowest level of freedom is at the bottom (where maximum government intervention is). Note that the vertical line comprising this spectrum measures one thing: the degree or extent of encroachment or intervention by the political state on the private affairs or voluntary relations of peaceful people, regardless of WHO or HOW MANY rule the official government (monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, etc). It is a one-dimensional scale which nmasures the overall SCOPE or extent of government intervention regardless of the FORM of government.
See Up Versus down "Peg" Spectrum or external link at http://Laissez-FaireRepublic.com/upvsdown.htm
<End cut material>
Most of this comes from a site whose home page calls it Sam's Politically Incorrect Web Site Against the Neo-Fascist "Liberal" Establishment and Coercive Busybodyism -- and For the Laissez-Faire Republic. Need I really say more? Folks, this is an encyclopedia, not a place for posting the personal opinion of everyone who happens to have one. Maybe I should just stop there, but one more point: the claim that Tito's Yugoslavia was equal to Hitler's Germany and Castro more extreme than Hitler should all on its own be enough to discredit this entirely a anything but polemic. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:21, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
I cut the following recent addition. It's uncited, and I don't believe it is accurate. Imaginably I could be wrong, but I won't believe it without citation. Yes, there is the so-called red-brown coalition politics in which the communists have sometimes allied with the right, but that doesn't make conservatives and fascists the left.
Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I reverted this edit. The material it inserted appears to be original research. If this is, indeed, citable from somewhere, please cite. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Chris, if you will re-read the above, you will see that I made several constructive suggestions on what to do to improve your chart, and what you would have to do to publish it in a way that would get the level of notability to be covered in Wikipedia. Unless I very much misread your remarks, you responded by calling me a "stormtrooper". If I have misconstrued you, or if you wish to retract the remark, say so. Otherwise, I will consider that a personal attack.
Juan: I can't say much about the pedigree of the Vosem chart or the Friesian model. Perhaps they do not belong in the article. FWIW, googling "Vosem chart" -wikipedia gives 535 hits, which suggests at least some notoriety; a quick read of some of what turns up shows a reasonable number of these links are people saying positive things about it. That's still pretty weak; I'm not sure I see why it is mentioned. Kelley Ross, the person behind the Friesian chart claims to be a philosophy professor; judging by his web site he is somewhere out in Randite/ Austrian School territory. I have no idea whether he has published anything peer-reviewed on the topic. If we could come up with a three-dimensional model with more of an academic pedigree I'd be all for it; as it is, though, I think it is useful to give at least one example of a three-dimensional model and even if the model is a bit biased, I'd rather see us use an example of something that is already out there in the world than conjure our own original version.
The Pournelle chart was originally published in a Ph.D. dissertation, accepted at the University of Washington. That's would be a little shaky if Pournelle had no other notability, but, of course, he has. The Political Compass is, at the very least, well-known. Their web site has received an enormous amount of press.
I don't really know the academic literature on this subject. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who does. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
"Real book encyclopedias are not unknown to create original diagrams": Yes, but "real book encyclopedias" get to hire and fire writers, and get to weed out the crackpots. Believe me, I'm often as frustrated as you by the NOR rule, but I'd rather take the inconvenience it creates for those of us who have a clue and operate in good faith than the abomination that would result if the requirement were lifted. It's bad enough that we seem to accumulate opinions that have been expressed by exactly one scholar and refuted by a dozen others. It would be sheer disaster if we had to give similar deference to opinions voiced by no one but one uncredentialed Wikipedian. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The recently added Stephane Dubois chart doesn't impress me at all. Is there any indication that anyone other than Stephane Dubois has ever before cited or commented favorably on this thing? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
To follow up on that: is there any indication that anyone ever took note of the two books mentioned near the end of the article ("Maximum Liberty", Anonymous. 2003. ( ISBN 0974443905) and "Beyond Liberal and Conservative: Reassessing the Political Spectrum", William S. Maddox and Stuart A. Lilie, Washington, D.C.: Cato Institute, 1984. ( ISBN 0932790437))
They don't strike me as either as widely cited in academia or bestselling – statements like "The author proposes a new, universal model for the political spectrum and explains why the various existing models are inadequate" or "This book emphasises that the world needs a better model of the political spectrum" confirm the suspicion of soapboxing. Unless someone can explain where they were influential they ought to be removed. Pilatus 00:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I noticed that the entire Vosem Chart was deleted. This includes the Vosem Chart article as well as the link from this page. I missed the delete debate, so what happened?
Jmabel 01:43, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
Tim, this makes a good attempt to be fair but it overlooks a couple key points. There are a variety of political spectra, but most people have a clear concept of the one to which "left" and "right" refer. In fact, if you look at the one presented by the advocates for self-government, you will notice that the horizontal axis is the same left-right spectrum everyone else uses. So while people may debate over the precise definition of that axis, its existence is not nearly so controversial.
The other thing is that the particular diagram to which you refer is fairly non-discriminatory. Inasmuchas it can't distinguish between libertarianism and anarchism - one of which has policies much like capitalism, one of which has policies much like socialism - and again between fascism and marxism. In short, they have identified different ideologies by pinching the diagram off into a diamond, which is probably more for the purposes of popularizing libertarianism (something the site obviously tries to do) then accuracy. -- JoshuaGrosse
Joshua - The two axes are 'personal self-government' and 'economic self-government'. Which is the horizontal axis?
Economic self-government: the one that showed up as horizontal on the chart, of course. :)
But personal self-government is equally horizontal on the chart. The axes lie parallel like two AA batteries in a walkman: The positive next to the others negative.
The diagram can be represented like this: ++ +- -+ --
Oh...I see what they're doing. In that case the corners of the graph are grossly mislabeled - a completely totalitarian government is authoritarian whether or not they allow a free market. But all in all, it's the square is suggested, only tilted in a non-standard way. Usually left-right is portrayed as an economic spectrum. I'm very sorry for the confusion. I still say the source is biased, though. -- JoshuaGrosse
Also - I do not agree that there is similarity between socialism and anarchism. As I would define them, socialism attempts to maintain social order with political institutions, and without cultural or economic institutions. Anarchism seeks to maintain social order with economic and cultural institutions, and without political institutions. As they are conventionally understood, socialism means more government, anarchism no government. So even if you don't like my definition, common usage place these two at opposite extremes.
Just as libertarian is usually applied in a narrow sense to exclude libertarian socialists (~anarcho-syndicalists), it seems anarchism is usually applied in a narrow sense to exclude anarcho-capitalists (~free market libertarians). It's in this sense that I was using the term. Obviously anarcho-syndicalism has strong ties to socialism and free market libertarianism has strong ties to capitalism, but the two systems aren't distinguished on the diamond. A square or circle would be much better in terms of actually representing ideologies.
Other than those, though, I don't really have any complaints other than perhaps a slight editorial tone (fear the future and wish to control it). And, of course, none of this is meant as negative criticism, my being too uncertain to try writing political articles myself. :) -- JoshuaGrosse
Tim, you wrote:
I think we need to find a better word for The Right than "conservatism" because that means, after all, something quite different in countries where the tradition for decades has been socialism. Perhaps there isn't a single word--perhaps it's simply "support for traditional values and some support for capitalism."
Fairandbalanced 01:57, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
N8chz -- I am not sure that the "dove/hawk" distinction is the same that I was trying to make regarding political violence. I was thinking more of the "Gandhi/Arafat" axis: not should our nation use war to enforce its policies abroad? but rather should our party use violence to get what it wants domestically?
I think both are useful, though the words "pacifist" and "militant" are too fuzzy to clarify between them. (For one thing, they aren't even really opposites. A pacifist is someone who rejects violence for any purpose, but a militant isn't someone for whom violence is the first answer -- it's someone who believes political violence has become necessary in the present situation.)
For the "dove/hawk" distinction regarding aggression abroad, I can't think of any good "formal" words. Those two are good, though. -- FOo
A couple points of concern. One, the association of Liberalism with Socialism isn't particularly accurate nor unbiased. United States Liberalism does not call for government control of most industries.
Second and more broadly, I think the article gives far too much weight to the libertarian idea of a spectrum. It's another valid spectrum, of course, but the weight of text given to it gives it more validity than the others, which does not particularly represent the cultural importance of that idea in US, or certainly Western, politics. - User:Gacohen
The "Historical Origin" is questionable, since the "first estate" was not the nobility -- it was the Church. The nobility were the second estate. Further, I was under the impression that the terms "left" and "right" dated to after the Revolution, with the revolutionaries to the left and the counter-revolutionaries to the right. -- FOo
I think the article should cite who divided up the political spectrum in America as follows, because it bears no resemblance to what I read in the newspapers and see and TV every day:
Is this the Libertarian view of the political spectrum, or what?
I thought in America the left-right spectrum was mostly the "liberal left" agenda vs. the "conservative right" agenda. That is, each side has a whole laundry list of things it wants, and I think they should be listed specifically first, before venturing into an analysis that tries to break down these positions into "principles" of some sort.
Also, I don't think it's correct that conservatives don't care about "outcomes", as the article currently characterizes them. So it would be more neutral to say that Mr. X says that liberals care about outcomes while...
-- Uncle Ed 19:15 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
Both these assumptions are not supported by the article, which clearly lists "fair outcomes versus fair processes" as an opinion, and does not state that conservatives are right wing. Martin
Some comments on the two-axis section:
Axlrosen 18:29, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I'm a little confused by the latest edits by Wiwaxia:
Axlrosen 21:56, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Wiwaxia, I agree with Fubar, Afrocentrism or Black Nationalism seems very similar to or a subset of nationalism (though perhaps the definiton of "nationalism" in the article needs to be expanded). Plus, even if we kept it, it needs a better name than "movements like Afrocentrism". I'm going to delete it, but feel free to fix it up if you think it's still viable.
How about my question on the Pournelle chart? Can you fix that part up so it clearer?
Axlrosen 21:33, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"and those at the bottom reduced to blind, celebratory attachment to their ideology for its own sake -- the fascist who will now do anything to celebrate "greatness", the anarchist given to tossing bombs around for the fun of it" <--- Not all anarchists and fascists, only those who fit this description
I removed this line from the explanation of left vs. right:
After reading the Positive Liberty page, this doesn't sound like left vs. right but libertarianism vs. authoritarianism. So if anything it belongs in the Alternative Spectra list. But I'm not sure how to phrase it. It's not Negative Liberty vs. Positive Liberty, because almost everyone is for Negative Liberties. It's more like whether Positive Liberties should exist or not.
Also, according to the Positive Liberty page, "how much participation an individual should have" is an alternate and controversial definition, not the main feature of Positive Liberty.
-- Maybe Positive Liberty is poorly defined, but it is certinaly worth a mention. Negative Liberty is things that the Government doesn't stop you from doing, Positive Liberty is where the Government actively allows you to do something. So a belief in Positive Liberty means that a Government would support welfare, a National Health service, etc. These are things that the right (with the acception of very left-wing paternalistic conservatives (who support welfare for a different reason)) supports.
Slizor.
Under the various characterizations of left versus right User:Slizor's recent edit removed:
Replacing these with:
I don't have any real problem with the addition (although I would argue that this would be a contingent characteristic of leftists and rightists, not what would characterize someone as such: for example, Ronald Reagan seems to have been essentially optimistic bout human nature, but that does not make him a man of the left). However, I think the deletions are entirely unjustified. In particular, the views of Hoffer and Sowell seem to deserve mention simply becuase of whose views they are. As for the one on religion, it's arguable, and I'd let go of that if there is no consensus to restore it (after all, the words "religious" and "secular" are perfectly good words, why confuse the matter by saying that "right" and "left" are somehow their stalking horses). I think the "Fair outcomes (left) versus fair processes (right)" is entirely justifiable: Look at the rhetoric of the fight over Affirmative Action in the US.
In short, unless someone states a strong case to the contrary, I plan to restore the Hoffer, Sowell, and outcomes/processes bullet points in about 24 hours. I don't want an edit war here, so please let's talk if you have a problem with that. -- Jmabel 01:15, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
-- Jmabel 07:34, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A recent edit by User:Fairandbalanced changed:
to
Certainly "the United States" (my wording) was too narrow, because Canadian liberals are center-left; as for substituting "North American" rather than "the United States and Canada", I honestly don't know how the term is used in Mexico. I suspect it is not heavily used there, or I would probably know. I'm not sure: in a context like this, do most people read "North American" as including or excluding Mexico? I suppose British "Liberals" are also center-left; I gather, though, that Australian "Liberals" are rather on the right, so we can't say "English-speaking world"...
More important, though, I believe that most European "Liberal" parties are center-right. I'm pretty comfortable saying that about Germany and I'd be surprised if it were otherwise in the Netherlands or Belgium. Could someone who knows Continental European politics please weigh in? The point of my sentence (which I now see wasn't strictly accurate) was that there are parts of the world where "Liberal" means center-left and parts where it means center right; also that North American (US and Canadian) Liberalism is a very different matter than European Liberalism. Again, my sentence was not on the mark, but I want to get these points into that paragraph or thereabouts. I also want to have my facts in a row before I re-edit.
Fairandbalanced, do you have any further thoughts on this now that I've clarified what I was driving at?
-- Jmabel 07:55, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
My idea was to limit the definition to English-language countries because no translation is perfect. So far it appears the left-handed version applies in the North Hemisphere, the right-handed version in the South. :^) Fairandbalanced 21:25, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm still unhappy with the dominance of the Nolan chart. I certainly feel there should be less on this POV (and very biased) chart. Slizor 10:17, 2004 Mar 19 (UTC)
The two recent additions to the left-right dichotomy seem to me to be pretty useless:
Neither has any attribution as to who has characterized left and right as meaning this, and both seem absurd in terms of the original use during the French Revolution: there were advocates of both of these positions on both the left and right. To state what should be obvious, Robespierre -- certainly a paragidmatic leftist -- was no friend of individual liberty over national security, nor did he keep the government out of the realm of morality (consider the Cult of the Divine Being).
All of this is better discussed at Left-Right politics. I'd really rather see this section reduced and cross referenced to where the topic is more seriously engaged. Does anyone have a problem with that? -- Jmabel 18:31, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
As wikipedia defines it, authoritarianism describes "a state which enforces strong and sometimes oppressive measures against the population". Here it used to describe the opposite of a libertarian. I fall into that side of the spectrum, supporting liberal economics but being somewhat socially conservative. However, I don't advocate anything not espoused by either the Democrats or Republicans, certainly not strong or oppressive measures aginst the population, and nowhere near what was done by regimes known as authoritarian. Could the term be changed to something more accurate, less biased, such as the original 'populist', or the more recent 'communitarian'? -juan, 9:13 am, 6/18
Does anybody else think
is already covered by
and
or is it just me? Harvestdancer
Ok, I replaced the term 'authoritarian' in the text with 'communitarian', which I also wrote a rough article about at Communitarianism (ideology). The chart, however, still needs to be updated, and some of the text possible should be changed further to reflect the change of terms.
Jmabel, if you're still there, would you mind taking a look at the article on communitarianism, particularly the chart?
I found a two axis model which predates the Nolan Chart by 6 years. As it is no longer the first two-axis political spectrum it has lost its historical significance and with it, its reason to remain in the article. The Nolan Chart is clearly an ideologically biased chart with little influence on the outside world, it is insignificant. However, I expect that someone will add in something about the Nolan Chart again - keep it short it is ideologically and realistically (and now historically) marginalised.
One other thing: Is the Pournelle Chart the same as the Eysenck chart? If so does it deserve a mention? Slizor 12:23, 2004 Jun 30 (UTC)
Somebody thinks the opposite of what I did. Better say nothing than something exactly wrong, eh? Comments on this sentance? Sam [ Spade] 20:49, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I disagree that any side can be classified as one or the other. For instance, both neo-conservatives and socialists are very commited to the idea of "community". There are also major differences between say a left-wing anarchist and a Stalinist on that issue, even though on a sole axis they would be in very similar places.
Also: "Whether the state should prioritize equality (left) or hierarchy (right)."
People on the right do not necessarily believe in hierarcy, right-wing anarchists come to mind. Shouldn't it be something about economic equality and economic inequality? "Whether the state should prioritize security (right) or liberty (left)."
Again, right-wing anarchists come to mind. "Whether the government's involvement with moral issues should be interventionist(right) or minimal (left)."
And again. "Fair outcomes (left) versus fair processes (right)."
See, now I have a major gripe with this one. Certainly any ideology which does not fully embrace capitalism will not see it as a "fair process" - Capitalism is distinctly unfair. Slizor 21:09, 2004 Jul 3 (UTC)
Well, it seems the right wants to control what you do privately (morals) and the left wants to control what you do publicly (environment, etc.) That's what I was thinking. I dunno about the economics, seems no side left or right wants laissez-faire economy. -- DanielCD 22:51, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
There's an awful lot of "nevertheless" and "however" in the article. It reads more like a debate than like an exposition of what significant thinkers have thought. Not very encyclopedic. I'm busy elsewhere, but someone relatively neutral should take a shot at editing this. -- Jmabel 01:39, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
"The effect of this new axis is that those who have very different views with regard to authority, but have the same "left-right" view (people like Stalin and Noam Chomsky), can be distinguished."
Noam Chomsky has the same views with regard to authority as Stalin. -- Fogger 09:38, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Based on things Donald Rumsfeld said about Saddam Hussein in the mid-1980s, it would be exactly as easy to say the same about Rumsfeld having "the same views on authority as Saddam Hussein". But, not being a demagogue, I wouldn't make that assertion. -- Jmabel 02:51, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following sentence from the article:
This was changed by an anon to the exact oppostite, and since it can actually be convincingly argued both ways, I don't think it makes much sense as a criterion for distinguishing left and right. Feel free to disagree and reinsert :p -- Ferkelparade π 07:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
... and not just in this article. Here, and across Wikipedia terms used include 'communitarian' 'statist' and 'authoritarian'. I believe this should be unified under the term communitarian, unless it could be shown that other, distinct ideologies exist there. First, statism is defined as wikipedia as "central government that implements economic planning, or policy." This applies to liberalism as well, and is in no way unique to this quadrant. Authoritarianism is similar, decribed as prescribing "strong and sometimes oppressive measures against the population". This could be liberal, communitarian, or conservative. Both of these being offensive terms, I find it a bit biased that they are ascribed solely to this quadrant... maybe it has something to do with the fact the chart was taken directly from a libertarian website, the ideological opposite. Finally, communitarianism is an actual ideology, wheras statism and authoritarianism are not. Juan Ponderas 03:39, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
? Communism isn't liberal, and Nazism isn't conservative. Sam [ Spade] 21:32, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I donno, do you have more stuff to say? ;) Sam [ Spade] 02:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the list under "Multiplicity of interpretation of the left-right axis" User:Silverback changed "Support for the economic interests of the poor (left) or the rich (right)," to "Whether the government should support the economic security of the poor (left) or allow citizens freedom to spend their money for other purposes as well(right)." He re-reverted with the comment, "revert, it is a leftist POV that the right is motivation by favoring the rich rather than the principles of freedom, are you from Europe or something?". I think the latter part of this speaks for itself, apparently he thinks U.S.-centric right-wing view is simply "correct".
I believe that the original wording is a NPOV way of stating one of the ways these terms are used. I believe that his substituted text is nothing of the sort:
I am not unilaterally reverting again at this time because I try very hard to avoid edit wars with anyone other than an outright vandal, but I would greatly appreciate if someone would endorse my view on this by reverting. Also, further dialogue is welcome. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:47, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
(In case you hadn't noticed, Jmabel, Silverback is rather opinionated when it comes to politics. I'd strongly encourage you to forego debating the issues on this page, no matter how tempting it may be. Coming to an agreement about an NPOV article is a small miracle; coming to an agreement about who's right in politics is just too much to ask. – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 02:43, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC))
I'm certainly willing to work toward NPOV. In any event, we have to start from context: there is no one true meaning of "left" and "right". They are malleable, vague terms. What we should be doing is documenting how these words have been used, preferably by significant writers or significant political actors, not just some views people on the left and people on the right happen to have.
I certainly prefer Quadell's second wording here to either his first or to Silverback's, but I think it misses the point: while this may be a difference between typical left and right stances, it is not what anyone I've ever heard of considers to define "left" and "right". The point of the original wording -- and it lacked citation, and that is a problem, and should be addressed -- is that many important writers (mostly on the left) have considered this economic class issue to define left and right. Nonetheless, I have no problem with it as a compromise for now: at least it is evenly balanced, as a statement without attribution should be.
What would make me happiest, though, is if we could get this list (and the one at left-right politics) to consist entirely of cited definitions given by significant writers or significant political actors. And that will take legwork, and I've got a lot else I'm working on right now, but I will try to get to it some time. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:49, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
The recently added section Westernized Political Spectrum strikes me as almost completely incoherent. Maybe I'm just tired, but I doubt it. I don't want to just delete this in case there is something coherent here. Could someone besides its author take a good look at it and respond here? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:35, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Harvestdancer 23:07, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would not say it is at all true that reactionaries "believe in no change". Very often they are trying to restore a real or imagined status quo ante, which requires a great deal of change. For example, the few remaining outright white supremacists in the US South are reactionaries who wish to make enormous changes. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
Hm, I'm not sure on "conservative" and "liberal". It seems to me that "radical" and "reactionary" might work better. Liberal and conservative require a disambugation as you are using traditional definitions instead of political definitions on a political page. That's not very ... useful. Also, this is the "Alternative spectra" section, not the "right left" section. Liberals and conservatives might find these designations to be POV. Harvestdancer 07:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To label a reactionary as being opposed to change is incorrect. Reactionaries do make that claim but, they always follow that initial statement with such statements as "I just want to get us back to the days when the government was not involved in the economy, back before the New Deal of FDR;" "I just want to get us back to the true democracy as envisioned by our founding fathers;" "I just want to get us back to the days when men were men and women were women and you could tell the difference." Notice that the present situation is unacceptable to the reactionary and he wants to change it. And the change that the reactionary wants is, to go back in time. Advocating an effort, to take the society as it is presently consituted, and return it to a condition that existed in the past is to advocate enormous change. It can be as much change as the radical is professing in his effort to move a society in the direction of change off into the future for something that doesn't presently exist. So both the radical and the reactionary are unhappy with the condition that exists in a society and wants to change that condition immediately. Its just that they are going in opposite directions--one into the future, the other into the past. It is the conservative that prefers to maintain the status quo not the reactionary. One problem is that reactionaries don't call themselves reactionaries. They call themselves conservatives. Today, correctly labeled, the US is governed by reactionaries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PaganBaby ( talk • contribs) 11 Dec 2005.
Portrayed that way, the Political compass does look more like the Eysenck model. I think, though, it is just a clever illusison. Take a look at this model on their website. This version has the axes drawn in, economic and social. That is identical to the Nolan chart. Your version, and the one they use later on the site, use the resulting ideologies as axes in themselves, which is just another representation of the Nolan chart.
Furthermore, I think we need an actual image of the Eysenck model. The one beside it, described below as 'similar', is actually very different. They both have a left-right axis, but in the Eysenck model the second axis is between democracy and authoritarianism- essentially, the 'political liberty' axis of the Friesian chart. This is very, very different from the axis between government control and libertarianism portrayed in the current image. Juan Ponderas 22:52, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
That model mentioned in the Eysenck section, which is pictured- do we know the creator of the chart? Juan Ponderas
I asked, before the archive, if the Vosem Chart should still be included here. Since the archive happened before anyone responded, I'll bring it upagain. Yes, it's one person's article on a webpage, but it is interesting. It certainly doesn't merit a separate Wikipedia article, and the separate article was deleted, but perhaps it does deserve one or two lines near the end of Multi-Axis Models and an external link. Harvestdancer 18:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone recently added text claiming that one of the definitions of the left/right contrast is "Whether it is best to subsidise the weak (left) or strong (right)." There is no citation for this, and it sounds propagandistic. If no one can provide a citation in the next 48 hours, I intend to delete it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
It probably deserves to be removed for being uncited - but how exactly is it "propagandistic"? Do you think that POV is somehow less truthful than the others presented? matturn 10:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've removed it. As for why propagandistic: no one on the right would overtly say "we believe in subsidizing the strong". -- Jmabel | Talk 23:02, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps, although you don't hear the left overtly saying "we believe in subsidising the weak" too much either. The right does make similar statements though, helping "young achievers" and the like. And just because a group may not overtly support a statement, doesn't mean it isn't at the core of their beliefs. Plenty of socialist parties in the west during the Cold War would've liked their countries to become communist but couldn't dream of saying so, for instance. A modern example is the heavily Christian "Family First" party in Australia, which completely denies being theist at all. matturn 03:30, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1,790,000 Google hits for political+spectrum+theory; it is in fact a theory, not unlike evolution or creationism with its dissenters from primary premises & validity. Nobs01 21:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia seems inconsistent in whether 'chart' and 'model' are to be capitalized or not. What would be more correct? Juan Ponderas
There's another dimension that should be mentioned under "Alternative spectra", but I can't think of the right words in which to describe it. This is the spectrum which deals with the source of state authority.
On the one end, there's the view which says that state authority is ultimately delegated from the people; thus, that government cannot have any rights that are not delegated to it, for instance by a constitution.
On the other end, there's what Popper called the organic concept of the state; that is, state authority as essential and original, as found in Plato's Republic and in Fascist politics. This is not quite the same as monarchy or the divine right of kings -- or, for that matter, the Chinese concept of the mandate of heaven -- although it similarly serves to legitimate the holding of power by whoever happens to hold power at the moment.
In political philosophy, this might simply be called liberalism vs. anti-liberalism, although that may be to take the Popperian point of view too much. (Not to mention the confusion that is the word "liberalism" today! -- and "classical liberalism" is too much bound up in libertarian economics.) Another expression for the first end is popular sovereignty; that is, the people as the source of authority; we could use organic sovereignty for the other end, but I'm not sure if that word has provenance.
Thoughts? -- FOo 18:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The page on Ideology uses a two-dimensional model to describe political ideologies. This is interesting for a couple reasons; the model is not listed in this article, and that article uses that model as an expression of fact. See an opening statement: "Political ideologies have two dimensions:".
A) Should the article be mentioned here? It traces back, to my knowlege, tp a site called Moral Politics. B) How should that page be handled? Should the descriptions of ideologies with that model be moved to an article on that model, replacing the content in Ideology with a description of political ideologies that is not reliant on a particular model? -( Juan Ponderas
Should the Political Compass, as possibly the most well-known graph of political views, have a seperate part for it? Also, why is the Nolan Chart given as inspiration for it? Unless this is noted by their site then I think it should be removed.
Slizor 15:57, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Slizor 11:32, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any way to tell readers that the Worlds Smallest blah, blah, blah, is just a load of crap without being too POV.
If you look at the Pournelle Chart article it says that his chart was created in 1962 - two years before the Esyenck model. This would make the Pournelle Chart the first two dimensional axis spectrum, however the Esyenck model is more similar to the generic model used by many people (which is very similar to the Political Compass.) How should this be resolved? The Esyenck model is not particually famous outside of the Psychology field and not particularly influential, but the Pournelle chart is very very strange - the traditional left-right lines are horizontal. Slizor 23:49, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Given lack of citation, and the fact that people keep changing which side of this they consider to be "left" or "right", I am removing this from the article as probably useless. Citations (either way around) welcome, but till then I think we are better off without it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:05, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
All of the items on the list are subject to double interpretation, if you wanted consistency they would all have to go. Economic interventionism is usually a left-wing theme, enforcement of traditional moral and cultural values by the state is a classic right-wing theme. Ruzmanci 21:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I have cut the following from the article:
<Begin cut material>
Up versus Down: a "Vertical" Linear Spectrum
Rejecting the notion that Communism and Naziism are opposites (since both are minor variants of hard-core socialism), and also the very ambiguous and perhaps totally illusory distinction often made between "social liberties" and "economic freedoms" as well, this spectrum seeks to measure merely the extent to which government and criminality impinge on the freedom of peaceful (non-criminal) adult citizens to own, use, and control their persons and properties by indicating relative points signifying different degrees of such coercive interference.
An Up versus Down "Peg" Spectrum
Because of confusions arising from propaganda and contradictory definitions, perhaps we should abandon the left-right spectrum and instead have a VERTICAL "spectrum" of UP and DOWN -- Up to the maximum of individual liberty consistent with law and order, or Down to the maximum of political interventionism (and minimum of freedom).
|10 The Laissez-Faire Republic (No Meddling with Peaceful Adult Citizens)
| | 9 Ayn Rand, George Reisman, & most libertarians
| | 8 Thomas Jefferson; JBS; U.S.A. prior to 1914 (no income tax, no Fed);
| | 7 Rush Limbaugh; National Review; American Spectator; YAF
| | 6 U.S. Republican Party (Average Position)
| | 5 U.S. Democrat Party (Average Position)
| | 4 European Welfare States
| | 3 Mussolini's Italy; Franco's Spain
| | 2 Nazi Germany under Hitler; Yugoslavia under Tito
| | 1 Red China under Mao; the former USSR; Castro's Cuba; N. Korea
| | 0 "Ingsoc" as described in Orwell's book 1984 (Total Control over the Citizens)]
Since individual liberty is generally inversely proportional to the Degree of Government Intervention in the private affairs and voluntary (market) relations of peaceful people, the highest level of freedom is at the top of the spectrum and the lowest level of freedom is at the bottom (where maximum government intervention is). Note that the vertical line comprising this spectrum measures one thing: the degree or extent of encroachment or intervention by the political state on the private affairs or voluntary relations of peaceful people, regardless of WHO or HOW MANY rule the official government (monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, etc). It is a one-dimensional scale which nmasures the overall SCOPE or extent of government intervention regardless of the FORM of government.
See Up Versus down "Peg" Spectrum or external link at http://Laissez-FaireRepublic.com/upvsdown.htm
<End cut material>
Most of this comes from a site whose home page calls it Sam's Politically Incorrect Web Site Against the Neo-Fascist "Liberal" Establishment and Coercive Busybodyism -- and For the Laissez-Faire Republic. Need I really say more? Folks, this is an encyclopedia, not a place for posting the personal opinion of everyone who happens to have one. Maybe I should just stop there, but one more point: the claim that Tito's Yugoslavia was equal to Hitler's Germany and Castro more extreme than Hitler should all on its own be enough to discredit this entirely a anything but polemic. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:21, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
I cut the following recent addition. It's uncited, and I don't believe it is accurate. Imaginably I could be wrong, but I won't believe it without citation. Yes, there is the so-called red-brown coalition politics in which the communists have sometimes allied with the right, but that doesn't make conservatives and fascists the left.
Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I reverted this edit. The material it inserted appears to be original research. If this is, indeed, citable from somewhere, please cite. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Chris, if you will re-read the above, you will see that I made several constructive suggestions on what to do to improve your chart, and what you would have to do to publish it in a way that would get the level of notability to be covered in Wikipedia. Unless I very much misread your remarks, you responded by calling me a "stormtrooper". If I have misconstrued you, or if you wish to retract the remark, say so. Otherwise, I will consider that a personal attack.
Juan: I can't say much about the pedigree of the Vosem chart or the Friesian model. Perhaps they do not belong in the article. FWIW, googling "Vosem chart" -wikipedia gives 535 hits, which suggests at least some notoriety; a quick read of some of what turns up shows a reasonable number of these links are people saying positive things about it. That's still pretty weak; I'm not sure I see why it is mentioned. Kelley Ross, the person behind the Friesian chart claims to be a philosophy professor; judging by his web site he is somewhere out in Randite/ Austrian School territory. I have no idea whether he has published anything peer-reviewed on the topic. If we could come up with a three-dimensional model with more of an academic pedigree I'd be all for it; as it is, though, I think it is useful to give at least one example of a three-dimensional model and even if the model is a bit biased, I'd rather see us use an example of something that is already out there in the world than conjure our own original version.
The Pournelle chart was originally published in a Ph.D. dissertation, accepted at the University of Washington. That's would be a little shaky if Pournelle had no other notability, but, of course, he has. The Political Compass is, at the very least, well-known. Their web site has received an enormous amount of press.
I don't really know the academic literature on this subject. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who does. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
"Real book encyclopedias are not unknown to create original diagrams": Yes, but "real book encyclopedias" get to hire and fire writers, and get to weed out the crackpots. Believe me, I'm often as frustrated as you by the NOR rule, but I'd rather take the inconvenience it creates for those of us who have a clue and operate in good faith than the abomination that would result if the requirement were lifted. It's bad enough that we seem to accumulate opinions that have been expressed by exactly one scholar and refuted by a dozen others. It would be sheer disaster if we had to give similar deference to opinions voiced by no one but one uncredentialed Wikipedian. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The recently added Stephane Dubois chart doesn't impress me at all. Is there any indication that anyone other than Stephane Dubois has ever before cited or commented favorably on this thing? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
To follow up on that: is there any indication that anyone ever took note of the two books mentioned near the end of the article ("Maximum Liberty", Anonymous. 2003. ( ISBN 0974443905) and "Beyond Liberal and Conservative: Reassessing the Political Spectrum", William S. Maddox and Stuart A. Lilie, Washington, D.C.: Cato Institute, 1984. ( ISBN 0932790437))
They don't strike me as either as widely cited in academia or bestselling – statements like "The author proposes a new, universal model for the political spectrum and explains why the various existing models are inadequate" or "This book emphasises that the world needs a better model of the political spectrum" confirm the suspicion of soapboxing. Unless someone can explain where they were influential they ought to be removed. Pilatus 00:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)