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The 2015 and the 2016 excavations clearly show that there is not enough evidence to support the claim Point Rosee was a permanent Norse settlement. That Point Rosee was even a temporary Norse site is very much in question. No hard evidence of a Norse presence has ever been found at Point Rosee, and it does not appear that anyone even returned to Point Rosee in 2017 to do further research. To show that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" is a stretch and does not appear to be of encyclopedic quality. It also does not appear to be supported by either of the two cited sources.
National Geographic:[ [1]] "One theory is that Point Rosee was primarily an iron-working camp, a temporary facility supporting exploration and exploitation of resources within the Gulf of St. Lawrence." So one of the cited sources for the information that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" actually shows that it was a temporary facility.
Searching for the Vikings: 3 Sites Possibly Found in Canada.[ [2]] "Point Rosee . . . These finds, the researchers say, suggest that Vikings may have used the site, though more dating information and excavation are needed to confirm that idea, they said. Additionally, even if it is a Viking site, it's uncertain how long the Vikings lived there." This cited source shows the Vikings may have used the site so they are not certain that Vikings were even at Point Rosee.
I added the bold to the above quotes.
Suggest the text that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" be removed. Thoughts anyone? Jerry Stockton ( talk) 17:40, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Just to remind everybody: please try to avoid vague terms like "some". Thank you. (Note: I'm not claiming any specific passages violate Wiki policy here. I'm merely saying article quality is improved when passages are rewritten for clarity. Have a nice day!) CapnZapp ( talk) 10:20, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
References
Birgitta Wallace, Senior Archaeologist Emerita, Atlantic Service Centre of Parks Canada, Halifax, was a member of the team that excavated L'Anse aux Meadows in the 1960s and was also at the 2016 excavation of Point Rosee. She has had a long and distinguished career as a Norse archaeologist and appears to be the preeminent authority on the Norse exploration in Newfoundland. In a paper published in 2003 she states her preference for using Norse over the more popular Viking. [ [4]]
The Norse in Newfoundland:
L'Anse aux Meadows and Vinland
by Birgitta Wallace,
Senior Archaeologist Emerita, Atlantic Service Centre of Parks Canada, Halifax
"Note that the term “Norse” refers to all inhabitants of Viking age and medieval Scandinavia, not just those of Norway (Webster 1988). Danes and Swedes were part of the migrations of this period, aptly named the Viking Age (c. 750-1050). Although they drastically affected the map of Europe, their role in the Norse ventures to North America was minor, and is therefore not discussed here. The term “Norse” is preferred here to the more popular “Viking”, which really refers to pirates or raiders. Although many men of the Viking Period would have been vikings at some time in their lives, women and children were not."
Maybe use the combined "Viking or Norse" very early in the article and then use Norse in the following text. Here is a little more information about Birgitta Wallace and her qualifications as a Norse expert:
Canadian Archaeological Association, 2015: [ [5]]
“Birgitta’s name is synonymous with Norse archaeology and Viking-age evidence in the west. Her CV [Curriculum Vitae] contains an outstanding 95 published submissions, including top-ranked national and international journal articles and book chapters, as well as the beautiful illustrated volume, Westward Vikings: The L’Anse aux Meadows Saga. Her research has expanded far beyond the academic milieu. As the world’s expert in a field fraught with controversy, mythology, misunderstanding and enormous international interest, she has included in her writing a wealth of public outreach in attempt to educate the interested in the realities of Norse North America.” Jerry Stockton ( talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"An archeological team searching for a Norse settlement at Point Rosee in the Codroy Valley has come away empty-handed, according to a project report submitted to the province. The report, filed by the team leads Sarah Parcak and Greg Mumford, is conclusive: "None of the team members, including the Norse specialists, deemed this area as having any traces of human activity," it states." [6] Lindsay Bird, CBC News, 30 May 2018
And: "No Viking presence in southern Newfoundland after all, American researcher finds" [7] Holly McKenzie-Sutter, The Canadian Press, 31 May 2018
Please see Dr. Sarah Parcak and Dr. Greg Mumford's report: Point Rosee, Codroy Valley, NL (ClBu-07), 2016 Test Excavations under Archaeological Investigation Permit #16.26, November 8, 2017. [8]
So even Sarah Parcak and Greg Mumford, the team leaders of the 2015 and 2016 excavations, don't believe that there are any traces of Norse activity at Point Rosee. Jerry Stockton ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Yngvadottir, Joe Roe, CapnZapp, and Jerry Stockton:, anyone else interested, I'm trying to remove relevant claims from the above article as unsourced or badly sourced, including a claim about Point Rosee, but am being reverted by a new editor. Similar problems in other articles of unsourced claims. Doug Weller talk 18:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
As a Swede I'm not touching jingoistic Norwegians with a ten-foot pole, which is why this reply will be the limit of my cooperation. But good luck - you'll need it. CapnZapp ( talk) 22:24, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The exact same sentence (Parcak has not applied for any new archaeological permits to excavate at Point Rosee since 2016.) and footnote occur twice. One should be removed or changed. Kdammers ( talk) 01:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Point Rosee article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 120 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The 2015 and the 2016 excavations clearly show that there is not enough evidence to support the claim Point Rosee was a permanent Norse settlement. That Point Rosee was even a temporary Norse site is very much in question. No hard evidence of a Norse presence has ever been found at Point Rosee, and it does not appear that anyone even returned to Point Rosee in 2017 to do further research. To show that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" is a stretch and does not appear to be of encyclopedic quality. It also does not appear to be supported by either of the two cited sources.
National Geographic:[ [1]] "One theory is that Point Rosee was primarily an iron-working camp, a temporary facility supporting exploration and exploitation of resources within the Gulf of St. Lawrence." So one of the cited sources for the information that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" actually shows that it was a temporary facility.
Searching for the Vikings: 3 Sites Possibly Found in Canada.[ [2]] "Point Rosee . . . These finds, the researchers say, suggest that Vikings may have used the site, though more dating information and excavation are needed to confirm that idea, they said. Additionally, even if it is a Viking site, it's uncertain how long the Vikings lived there." This cited source shows the Vikings may have used the site so they are not certain that Vikings were even at Point Rosee.
I added the bold to the above quotes.
Suggest the text that "it is possible it was a permanent Norse settlement" be removed. Thoughts anyone? Jerry Stockton ( talk) 17:40, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Just to remind everybody: please try to avoid vague terms like "some". Thank you. (Note: I'm not claiming any specific passages violate Wiki policy here. I'm merely saying article quality is improved when passages are rewritten for clarity. Have a nice day!) CapnZapp ( talk) 10:20, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
References
Birgitta Wallace, Senior Archaeologist Emerita, Atlantic Service Centre of Parks Canada, Halifax, was a member of the team that excavated L'Anse aux Meadows in the 1960s and was also at the 2016 excavation of Point Rosee. She has had a long and distinguished career as a Norse archaeologist and appears to be the preeminent authority on the Norse exploration in Newfoundland. In a paper published in 2003 she states her preference for using Norse over the more popular Viking. [ [4]]
The Norse in Newfoundland:
L'Anse aux Meadows and Vinland
by Birgitta Wallace,
Senior Archaeologist Emerita, Atlantic Service Centre of Parks Canada, Halifax
"Note that the term “Norse” refers to all inhabitants of Viking age and medieval Scandinavia, not just those of Norway (Webster 1988). Danes and Swedes were part of the migrations of this period, aptly named the Viking Age (c. 750-1050). Although they drastically affected the map of Europe, their role in the Norse ventures to North America was minor, and is therefore not discussed here. The term “Norse” is preferred here to the more popular “Viking”, which really refers to pirates or raiders. Although many men of the Viking Period would have been vikings at some time in their lives, women and children were not."
Maybe use the combined "Viking or Norse" very early in the article and then use Norse in the following text. Here is a little more information about Birgitta Wallace and her qualifications as a Norse expert:
Canadian Archaeological Association, 2015: [ [5]]
“Birgitta’s name is synonymous with Norse archaeology and Viking-age evidence in the west. Her CV [Curriculum Vitae] contains an outstanding 95 published submissions, including top-ranked national and international journal articles and book chapters, as well as the beautiful illustrated volume, Westward Vikings: The L’Anse aux Meadows Saga. Her research has expanded far beyond the academic milieu. As the world’s expert in a field fraught with controversy, mythology, misunderstanding and enormous international interest, she has included in her writing a wealth of public outreach in attempt to educate the interested in the realities of Norse North America.” Jerry Stockton ( talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"An archeological team searching for a Norse settlement at Point Rosee in the Codroy Valley has come away empty-handed, according to a project report submitted to the province. The report, filed by the team leads Sarah Parcak and Greg Mumford, is conclusive: "None of the team members, including the Norse specialists, deemed this area as having any traces of human activity," it states." [6] Lindsay Bird, CBC News, 30 May 2018
And: "No Viking presence in southern Newfoundland after all, American researcher finds" [7] Holly McKenzie-Sutter, The Canadian Press, 31 May 2018
Please see Dr. Sarah Parcak and Dr. Greg Mumford's report: Point Rosee, Codroy Valley, NL (ClBu-07), 2016 Test Excavations under Archaeological Investigation Permit #16.26, November 8, 2017. [8]
So even Sarah Parcak and Greg Mumford, the team leaders of the 2015 and 2016 excavations, don't believe that there are any traces of Norse activity at Point Rosee. Jerry Stockton ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Yngvadottir, Joe Roe, CapnZapp, and Jerry Stockton:, anyone else interested, I'm trying to remove relevant claims from the above article as unsourced or badly sourced, including a claim about Point Rosee, but am being reverted by a new editor. Similar problems in other articles of unsourced claims. Doug Weller talk 18:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
As a Swede I'm not touching jingoistic Norwegians with a ten-foot pole, which is why this reply will be the limit of my cooperation. But good luck - you'll need it. CapnZapp ( talk) 22:24, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The exact same sentence (Parcak has not applied for any new archaeological permits to excavate at Point Rosee since 2016.) and footnote occur twice. One should be removed or changed. Kdammers ( talk) 01:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)