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I'm going to go ahead and be bold and remove the merge notice per my statements here. (Note the merge notice has been hanging out since this stubby version [1] since October with no discussion. Like the summary says, feel free to readd if you think it applies, but please go ahead and drop a note here. Bitnine 00:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
copied from Yolgnu's Talk page (31 March 2008):
copied from Willow's Talk page (1 April 2008):
As to Catullus 10, the version as it was made no sense, and was too far gone to be fixed. It wasn't your fault; it was anonymous users, and with some of them making word-for-word translations and worse, it's hard to tell whether their edits were in good faith or not.
Anyway, remember that not all of Catullus' poems are WP:NOTABLE. I'd say there are only a dozen or so that are (see below). We should stick to improving those pages (remember there's no point in having the article if the poem's not discussed - this is Wikipedia, not WikiSource), and abandon or delete the rest.
Catullus 2 is Catullus' most famous poem, and as such there are tons of sources on it (I'll find some when I have time), and its Wikipedia article is the most extensive. I can find more sources for it, but if we want it to ever be a good article, we need to clean it up, unclog it and remove irrelevant material. Your biography of Catullus was well written, but it really belongs on the Catullus page, not here. Also, there were two different sections on "manuscript tradition", which basically both said the same thing but with different words, so I merged them into one section (a little bit messy; I'll clean it up later). And another thing - I'll look for textual criticism sources (ie. suggested textual emendations), as it's wrong to give the impression that the text of the poem is certain.
List of poems by Catullus is good (I especially like your summary of the themes), but since Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, the "obscenities" section (PG13, etc.) is unnecessary, and makes the article seem a little prudish. Do you mind if I delete that?-- Yolgnu ( talk) 09:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
All of those have already been made into articles except 62 (quite long, but worth it), 93 (historically important as it is about Catullus' relations with Caesar, and also includes the much discussed "I don't care if you are white or black" line). If there's nothing to say about a poem (which is the case for a lot of the very short ones), it shouldn't be here. If it's not significant in some way or another, we should consider deleting it.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 13:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I've just translated Catullus 10 (although I was a bit confused over lines 11-13) and fixed up List of poems by Catullus (as I said, the obscenities section isn't needed, and since many people know of the poems by their first Latin line rather than their number, I thought it was a good idea to add that), although it'd be nice if you could complete the themes section when you have time (I know you're very busy trying to stop various articles from losing Featured status).
We should think on what to do with not so notable poems like Catullus 14b, 27, 40, 52, 58b, 60, 69, 102 and 116. If we can't find anything notable about them (don't let me rush you - Catullus' poems aren't exactly top priority) - well, as much as I hate to say it, we don't want to clutter Wikipedia with minor Catullus poems. -- Yolgnu ( talk) 03:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we should continue our discussion at Talk:Poetry of Catullus, so other people who may have an interest in it can also see/discuss it.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 04:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop tagging the articles for moving to Wikisource, Aramgar! If you've read our discussions, you know that's not what we want; hence, there's no consensus. If you really want to contribute something to the poetry of Catullus and not destroy others' work, then dig up some scholarly references like the dozens I've placed on the pages you're tagging. If you're incapable or unwilling to do that, then at least please wait until both Yolgnu and I are free to Talk with you about what to do with the articles. Willow ( talk) 22:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
To help us reach consensus on the coverage and other issues, I've updated the Catullus WikiProject. I included sub-pages for three areas of persistent disagreement:
so that newcomers will be able to find out what our consensus is easily. We can add other special topics as needed.
It would be nice to have at least one image pertinent to Catullus. I've left a note for Kafka Liz to see how she's progressing.
I hope you like what you see, and please accept the invitation to join there! :) Willow ( talk) 17:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikisource has many Catullus poems with excellent translations, so I think it'd be wise to insert a link to Wikisource's Catullus poems. I'd do it myself but I don't know how to. 75.35.93.22 ( talk) 04:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
how about rhe story that the manuscript labeled V in the reference cited in note 11 appeared in a Verona wineshop. Where did this come from? Worth mentioning? It's sure a good story. deisenbe ( talk) 11:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please add the MS descriptions for the sigla? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3902:B10A:BD8B:1DD:2685:AC2 ( talk) 03:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Although the "20th Century" section lists a few notable translations, it would be good to have a complete (or mostly complete) list of the major published translations of the poems in English, preferably with a date and a few words as to what makes each translation unique. Readers who are not Latin students are likely to be looking for an English translation and providing a more-or-less complete list would provide a good starting point. 110.133.94.93 ( talk) 06:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
The recordings which have been added at the bottom under the heading "Readings" are very good. The reader has an ideal voice, with marvellous expression, and is delightful to listen to. The vowel qualities are exactly as one would wish, and it's also very helpful to see the text while hearing the reading. At the same time, however, he might have paid a little more attention to the vowel length and rhythm. For example, in poem 1 he pronounces cui as qui, and lepidum as leppidum, and puts a long vowel in novum, tribus, maneat, but a short vowel in āridā, putāre, pūmice, explicāre, quālecumque. These things don't necessarily spoil the reading, but if they were corrected it would be even better. Kanjuzi ( talk) 18:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Sentences such as "But it is not the traditional notions Catullus rejects, merely their monopolized application to the active life of politics and war" and "He writes obsessively about Lesbia; however she is just an object to him. In his writing, the male lover is the important character, and Lesbia is part of his theatrical passion" and so on seem to me very doubtful, and more in the style of a personal essay than a factual encyclopedia article. This whole section on Style needs to be rewritten or deleted. Kanjuzi ( talk) 18:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I'm going to go ahead and be bold and remove the merge notice per my statements here. (Note the merge notice has been hanging out since this stubby version [1] since October with no discussion. Like the summary says, feel free to readd if you think it applies, but please go ahead and drop a note here. Bitnine 00:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
copied from Yolgnu's Talk page (31 March 2008):
copied from Willow's Talk page (1 April 2008):
As to Catullus 10, the version as it was made no sense, and was too far gone to be fixed. It wasn't your fault; it was anonymous users, and with some of them making word-for-word translations and worse, it's hard to tell whether their edits were in good faith or not.
Anyway, remember that not all of Catullus' poems are WP:NOTABLE. I'd say there are only a dozen or so that are (see below). We should stick to improving those pages (remember there's no point in having the article if the poem's not discussed - this is Wikipedia, not WikiSource), and abandon or delete the rest.
Catullus 2 is Catullus' most famous poem, and as such there are tons of sources on it (I'll find some when I have time), and its Wikipedia article is the most extensive. I can find more sources for it, but if we want it to ever be a good article, we need to clean it up, unclog it and remove irrelevant material. Your biography of Catullus was well written, but it really belongs on the Catullus page, not here. Also, there were two different sections on "manuscript tradition", which basically both said the same thing but with different words, so I merged them into one section (a little bit messy; I'll clean it up later). And another thing - I'll look for textual criticism sources (ie. suggested textual emendations), as it's wrong to give the impression that the text of the poem is certain.
List of poems by Catullus is good (I especially like your summary of the themes), but since Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, the "obscenities" section (PG13, etc.) is unnecessary, and makes the article seem a little prudish. Do you mind if I delete that?-- Yolgnu ( talk) 09:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
All of those have already been made into articles except 62 (quite long, but worth it), 93 (historically important as it is about Catullus' relations with Caesar, and also includes the much discussed "I don't care if you are white or black" line). If there's nothing to say about a poem (which is the case for a lot of the very short ones), it shouldn't be here. If it's not significant in some way or another, we should consider deleting it.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 13:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I've just translated Catullus 10 (although I was a bit confused over lines 11-13) and fixed up List of poems by Catullus (as I said, the obscenities section isn't needed, and since many people know of the poems by their first Latin line rather than their number, I thought it was a good idea to add that), although it'd be nice if you could complete the themes section when you have time (I know you're very busy trying to stop various articles from losing Featured status).
We should think on what to do with not so notable poems like Catullus 14b, 27, 40, 52, 58b, 60, 69, 102 and 116. If we can't find anything notable about them (don't let me rush you - Catullus' poems aren't exactly top priority) - well, as much as I hate to say it, we don't want to clutter Wikipedia with minor Catullus poems. -- Yolgnu ( talk) 03:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we should continue our discussion at Talk:Poetry of Catullus, so other people who may have an interest in it can also see/discuss it.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 04:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop tagging the articles for moving to Wikisource, Aramgar! If you've read our discussions, you know that's not what we want; hence, there's no consensus. If you really want to contribute something to the poetry of Catullus and not destroy others' work, then dig up some scholarly references like the dozens I've placed on the pages you're tagging. If you're incapable or unwilling to do that, then at least please wait until both Yolgnu and I are free to Talk with you about what to do with the articles. Willow ( talk) 22:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
To help us reach consensus on the coverage and other issues, I've updated the Catullus WikiProject. I included sub-pages for three areas of persistent disagreement:
so that newcomers will be able to find out what our consensus is easily. We can add other special topics as needed.
It would be nice to have at least one image pertinent to Catullus. I've left a note for Kafka Liz to see how she's progressing.
I hope you like what you see, and please accept the invitation to join there! :) Willow ( talk) 17:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikisource has many Catullus poems with excellent translations, so I think it'd be wise to insert a link to Wikisource's Catullus poems. I'd do it myself but I don't know how to. 75.35.93.22 ( talk) 04:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
how about rhe story that the manuscript labeled V in the reference cited in note 11 appeared in a Verona wineshop. Where did this come from? Worth mentioning? It's sure a good story. deisenbe ( talk) 11:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please add the MS descriptions for the sigla? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3902:B10A:BD8B:1DD:2685:AC2 ( talk) 03:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Although the "20th Century" section lists a few notable translations, it would be good to have a complete (or mostly complete) list of the major published translations of the poems in English, preferably with a date and a few words as to what makes each translation unique. Readers who are not Latin students are likely to be looking for an English translation and providing a more-or-less complete list would provide a good starting point. 110.133.94.93 ( talk) 06:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
The recordings which have been added at the bottom under the heading "Readings" are very good. The reader has an ideal voice, with marvellous expression, and is delightful to listen to. The vowel qualities are exactly as one would wish, and it's also very helpful to see the text while hearing the reading. At the same time, however, he might have paid a little more attention to the vowel length and rhythm. For example, in poem 1 he pronounces cui as qui, and lepidum as leppidum, and puts a long vowel in novum, tribus, maneat, but a short vowel in āridā, putāre, pūmice, explicāre, quālecumque. These things don't necessarily spoil the reading, but if they were corrected it would be even better. Kanjuzi ( talk) 18:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Sentences such as "But it is not the traditional notions Catullus rejects, merely their monopolized application to the active life of politics and war" and "He writes obsessively about Lesbia; however she is just an object to him. In his writing, the male lover is the important character, and Lesbia is part of his theatrical passion" and so on seem to me very doubtful, and more in the style of a personal essay than a factual encyclopedia article. This whole section on Style needs to be rewritten or deleted. Kanjuzi ( talk) 18:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)