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Very similar to the Obregon entry, it needs more on what he did. Calles was a central figure in the development of Mexico, and should be treated more thoroughly. also obviously needs to be organized with headings. Finally, the article leaves out almost completely Calles' career before and after the presidency, during the latter of which he was still very influential.
category:Anti-catholism is already a subcat of category:religious persecution, so adding this page to the cat:religious persecution would be double categorization. And although it's undeniable that PEC violated human rights, we can't add every dictator and human rights violator in that cat. Firstly it would become huge (arguable could could add almost every leader at every point in history from every countryt), secondly it would become very POV-sensitive, thirdly if you look at the category, you'll see that this policy is already followed, there are (almost) no people in it and fourthly the universal declaration of human rights did not exist yet when Calles was president, so adding him in that category would be anachronistic. Mixcoatl 02:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Anti-Catholicism is not a subcategory of religious persecution any more than anti-semitism is a subcategory of religious persecution. For example, Mel Gibson's rant was anti-semitic but it was not persecution. Amanda Marcotte's writings are anti-Catholic but were not religious persecution. Sometimes you have bigotry but no persecution, and sometimes you have both. Mamalujo 08:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to this page? It became again a long rant against Calles. -- Hugo Estrada ( talk) 09:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
IIRC Enrique Krauze's Biografia del Poder mentions that Calles was agnostic rather than an atheist. I currently don't have the book here, so could somebody check it? Mixcoatl 03:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The article says that Calles was a Freemason and has a paragraph dedicated to this. I see an inconsistency since it's impossible to be both a Freemason and an atheist. Also the article does not belong to the 'Freemasons' category. Can this discrepancy resolved in the text? Pictureuploader 14:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
It is possible to be a part of Continental_Freemasonry while being an atheist, though. -- 148.87.1.170 ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Continental_Freemasonry is irregular Freemasonry, not recognized by the majority of the world's Freemasons. Implying that Calles was anti-clerical because he was a Freemason is as misleading as saying that the Jefferson_Bible is a Christian document. --Moly 21:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moly ( talk • contribs)
I am no fan of Calles, but the first sentence on the section of his presidency had a string of adjectives that are not relevant to the discussion. I took them out. -- Hugo Estrada 19:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of Calles' purported Freemasonry, it is not necessarily inconsistent with his atheism. In English speaking lodges it was less common, but in the Latin lodges atheism was very common and in certain instances specifically permitted. Freemasonry in Mexico, like the continental tradition, was often rabidly anti-clerical. (As an aside, although the subject of the Masons often is the subject of wild paranoid theories, the role of Freemasonry in Mexican politics is not the realm of wingnut conspiracy theories. It is well documented in reputable academic works.) Mamalujo 17:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I am starting this section of this discussion to make it clear to some people that we must avoid biased language.
As much as some of us want, we cannot describe people or laws with adjectives. This is biased language; we are injecting our point of view into the subject through this subtle manner. We should all have the maturity to understand that some of our beliefs on people, which seem clear to us, are our opinions, and other people may disagree with them.
As for expressing biased opinions which can illuminate on Calles, please use the legacy and controversy section. This let's readers know that the opinions reflect an ideology or point of view.
P.S. Mamalujo, please write notes here after you edit justifying your edits, please. Your behavior seems to be leading to an edit war. -- Hugo Estrada 23:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It is very different to write "the atheist, anti-clerical, and anti-Catholic Calles" than to explore each of these aspects of him under a heading. The string of adjectives is name calling; writing a paragraph on each of these headings is substantiating these claims. In a way, especially with someone like Calles, it serves your point of view more to explain what he did to be considered anticlerical and anti-Catholic than to just call him that.
Also, I don't think that non-Mexicans are going to get what the significance of him being an atheist is. This is a loaded adjective for Mexicans, a country who is very religious. For non-Mexicans, it doesn't contribute anything to the understanding of Calles because being an atheist in the U.S. or Europe is different from being an atheist in Mexico. Now, listing his anticlerical acts and briefly outlining how the Ley Calles was anticlerical does more to highlight this aspect of his life to all readers.
Why don't you we write a subsection called "Anti-Clerical and Anti-Catholic Actions" under presidency, right before the "Cristero War" section? I agree that these parts of his life should be explore, but we who dislike Calles must be extra careful to be fair to him. Don't you agree? And I really dislike Calles :P, which makes our exchanges pretty absurd.
Why don't you go ahead and write the first draft of this section? -- Hugo Estrada 19:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I checked this source, and I found it not only strongly biased against Calles, stating without documenting at all how Calles admired Hitler and Stalin, but it also contains a mayor historical inaccuracy when it says that Calles banned masses in Mexico. This is a popular myth spread by the Catholic Church, probably to misinform Catholics and inducing them into participating in the Cristero War. In fact, it was the Catholic Church that decided to go into a "Mass strike," which helped fuel the Cristero war.
I will request another citation for this section claim.
The untrustworthy source is: Robert Royal, "Father Miguel Pro: A Mexican Hero" Arlington Catholic Herald (2000). -- Hugo Estrada 17:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
In a spirit of compromise, I've removed Royal as a source. I don't think your exceptions to his article are well founded, though. There are no innacuracies in the article (at most you've pointed out an ambiguity). And I don't think any source which characterizes him as anti-Catholic, anticlerical or a persecutor of Catholics is necessarily biased. He was all of those things and all kinds of reliable sources say so, including encyclopedias. Its like saying a source on Hitler (not to say Calles is equivalent to Hitler) is biased because it says he was antisemitic or persecuted Jews. I'll agree that the statments regarding his sometime admiration of communism should remain out until a reliable and unequivocal source is found which states so as more than an aside. I have seen more than one refernce to it though (obviously I don't recall them all), and it is noteworthy, as noted in the article, that the U.S. feared he contemplated taking the country in that direction. Mamalujo 21:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 17, which references a "medal" given to Calles by "Freemasonry", is a very biased site, ultraconservative, and not a professional academic or journalist source, nor an eyewitness. This is Freemason-Conspiracy Theory stuff.
I believe that it is fair to call him "rightwing" since we have two sources that substantiates his sympathies towards fascism and Naziism. Considering the political atmosphere of the time, I "rightwing" seem a lot more accurate than, "moved to the right" which could imply that he was only a moderate from then on.
However, I will leave the text as it is unless other people feel that stressing Calles documented sympathies towards fascism must be included in the article. -- Hugo Estrada 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a new section under Mexico-U.S. relations. This was a major theme of his presidency, and an important chapter on Mexico's oil theme. Also, Ambassador Morrow, who arrived to Mexico in 1927, was going to play a key role in getting oil agreements and peace agreements of the Cristero War.
Please comment and edit. -- Hugo Estrada 03:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised to see the following line in the Calles article:
Can anyone provide evidence to substantiate the claim that Calles' father was not of Levantine (Syrian or Lebanese) origin or descent? Note that his father's last name was Elías (not Calles); Elías is a Syrian/Lebanese Christian surname, not a Spanish surname that I am aware of. (Note also that Syria/Lebanon were part of the Ottoman empire until after 1915, and all immigrants from the region were known in Latin America as turcos regardless of ethnicity.) -- Potosino ( talk) 03:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The article claims "Although he may not have called himself a Communist, he enacted polices in line with the 10 planks of Communism, such as the Central Bank and the government schools. Whether someone professes to be communist, socialist, marxist, or fascist the objective is always the same, smash the existing social order and rebuild it in your own image through violence. It has to be violent because these revolutions are never popular, contrary to the myths perpetuated by some."
ad sentence 1: the "ten planks of communism", i.e. the ten immediate measures proposed in the "Communist Manifesto" are not supposed to define what Communism is all about, and many of these measures have been carried out by governments w/o any communist ambition. That someone may have carried out a few or all of the immediate measures says nothing about their relationship with Communism.
ad sentence 2 & 3: completely unsupported claims! Left and right do not want the same, and there are moreover many cases in history of both leftist and right-wing revolutions with extensive popular bases.
All of this should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.92.94.145 ( talk) 16:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
LOL... You are so wrong. Calles himself wrote several times to the Ambassador of France denouncing Catholicism as something that hypnotizes the masses, and that he wished to see Catholicism and any religious faith eradicated so that the people will rely solely on the government and its resources. Do your research more. Calles was atheist and then later became "animistic" in his later years. But he was born out of wedlock, grew up with an alcholic father and hated religion because he thinks it corrupts the people into relying on deities rather than the government and Mexican constitution. Thats as plain englsih as it gets
HeartyBowl1989 (
talk)
22:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)HeartyBowl
Being an atheist is not the same as being a communist. Mexico has a strong anti-clerical streak. -- Hugo Estrada ( talk) 15:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems very unlikely that Calles was both a Freemason and an atheist, given that freemasonry requires a belief in a "higher-being". The only source given seems very low quality, a sort-of pop-history "Who's Who" of Freemasons that lacks any primary sources. Does anyone know of a reliable source supporting the claim that Calles was a Freemason? Glaucus ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:BRD and WP:TALKDONTREVERT, This comment concerns this edit and this revert.
(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoxoxes.)
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." -- Penn Jillette
"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher
There are many reasons for not saying "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes. They include:
It implies something that is not true
It is highly objectionable to many atheists.
It goes against consensus
It is unsourced
It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry
It violates the principle of least astonishment.
In many cases, it technically correct, but incomplete to the point of being misleading.
In my opinion, "Religion = None" is the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
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His parents never married in spite of having two children together, could someone please add an explanation for this because Mexican society (including the atheists) was more conservative in the 1800s. 42.107.64.1 ( talk) 23:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
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Very similar to the Obregon entry, it needs more on what he did. Calles was a central figure in the development of Mexico, and should be treated more thoroughly. also obviously needs to be organized with headings. Finally, the article leaves out almost completely Calles' career before and after the presidency, during the latter of which he was still very influential.
category:Anti-catholism is already a subcat of category:religious persecution, so adding this page to the cat:religious persecution would be double categorization. And although it's undeniable that PEC violated human rights, we can't add every dictator and human rights violator in that cat. Firstly it would become huge (arguable could could add almost every leader at every point in history from every countryt), secondly it would become very POV-sensitive, thirdly if you look at the category, you'll see that this policy is already followed, there are (almost) no people in it and fourthly the universal declaration of human rights did not exist yet when Calles was president, so adding him in that category would be anachronistic. Mixcoatl 02:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Anti-Catholicism is not a subcategory of religious persecution any more than anti-semitism is a subcategory of religious persecution. For example, Mel Gibson's rant was anti-semitic but it was not persecution. Amanda Marcotte's writings are anti-Catholic but were not religious persecution. Sometimes you have bigotry but no persecution, and sometimes you have both. Mamalujo 08:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to this page? It became again a long rant against Calles. -- Hugo Estrada ( talk) 09:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
IIRC Enrique Krauze's Biografia del Poder mentions that Calles was agnostic rather than an atheist. I currently don't have the book here, so could somebody check it? Mixcoatl 03:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The article says that Calles was a Freemason and has a paragraph dedicated to this. I see an inconsistency since it's impossible to be both a Freemason and an atheist. Also the article does not belong to the 'Freemasons' category. Can this discrepancy resolved in the text? Pictureuploader 14:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
It is possible to be a part of Continental_Freemasonry while being an atheist, though. -- 148.87.1.170 ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Continental_Freemasonry is irregular Freemasonry, not recognized by the majority of the world's Freemasons. Implying that Calles was anti-clerical because he was a Freemason is as misleading as saying that the Jefferson_Bible is a Christian document. --Moly 21:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moly ( talk • contribs)
I am no fan of Calles, but the first sentence on the section of his presidency had a string of adjectives that are not relevant to the discussion. I took them out. -- Hugo Estrada 19:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of Calles' purported Freemasonry, it is not necessarily inconsistent with his atheism. In English speaking lodges it was less common, but in the Latin lodges atheism was very common and in certain instances specifically permitted. Freemasonry in Mexico, like the continental tradition, was often rabidly anti-clerical. (As an aside, although the subject of the Masons often is the subject of wild paranoid theories, the role of Freemasonry in Mexican politics is not the realm of wingnut conspiracy theories. It is well documented in reputable academic works.) Mamalujo 17:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I am starting this section of this discussion to make it clear to some people that we must avoid biased language.
As much as some of us want, we cannot describe people or laws with adjectives. This is biased language; we are injecting our point of view into the subject through this subtle manner. We should all have the maturity to understand that some of our beliefs on people, which seem clear to us, are our opinions, and other people may disagree with them.
As for expressing biased opinions which can illuminate on Calles, please use the legacy and controversy section. This let's readers know that the opinions reflect an ideology or point of view.
P.S. Mamalujo, please write notes here after you edit justifying your edits, please. Your behavior seems to be leading to an edit war. -- Hugo Estrada 23:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It is very different to write "the atheist, anti-clerical, and anti-Catholic Calles" than to explore each of these aspects of him under a heading. The string of adjectives is name calling; writing a paragraph on each of these headings is substantiating these claims. In a way, especially with someone like Calles, it serves your point of view more to explain what he did to be considered anticlerical and anti-Catholic than to just call him that.
Also, I don't think that non-Mexicans are going to get what the significance of him being an atheist is. This is a loaded adjective for Mexicans, a country who is very religious. For non-Mexicans, it doesn't contribute anything to the understanding of Calles because being an atheist in the U.S. or Europe is different from being an atheist in Mexico. Now, listing his anticlerical acts and briefly outlining how the Ley Calles was anticlerical does more to highlight this aspect of his life to all readers.
Why don't you we write a subsection called "Anti-Clerical and Anti-Catholic Actions" under presidency, right before the "Cristero War" section? I agree that these parts of his life should be explore, but we who dislike Calles must be extra careful to be fair to him. Don't you agree? And I really dislike Calles :P, which makes our exchanges pretty absurd.
Why don't you go ahead and write the first draft of this section? -- Hugo Estrada 19:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I checked this source, and I found it not only strongly biased against Calles, stating without documenting at all how Calles admired Hitler and Stalin, but it also contains a mayor historical inaccuracy when it says that Calles banned masses in Mexico. This is a popular myth spread by the Catholic Church, probably to misinform Catholics and inducing them into participating in the Cristero War. In fact, it was the Catholic Church that decided to go into a "Mass strike," which helped fuel the Cristero war.
I will request another citation for this section claim.
The untrustworthy source is: Robert Royal, "Father Miguel Pro: A Mexican Hero" Arlington Catholic Herald (2000). -- Hugo Estrada 17:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
In a spirit of compromise, I've removed Royal as a source. I don't think your exceptions to his article are well founded, though. There are no innacuracies in the article (at most you've pointed out an ambiguity). And I don't think any source which characterizes him as anti-Catholic, anticlerical or a persecutor of Catholics is necessarily biased. He was all of those things and all kinds of reliable sources say so, including encyclopedias. Its like saying a source on Hitler (not to say Calles is equivalent to Hitler) is biased because it says he was antisemitic or persecuted Jews. I'll agree that the statments regarding his sometime admiration of communism should remain out until a reliable and unequivocal source is found which states so as more than an aside. I have seen more than one refernce to it though (obviously I don't recall them all), and it is noteworthy, as noted in the article, that the U.S. feared he contemplated taking the country in that direction. Mamalujo 21:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 17, which references a "medal" given to Calles by "Freemasonry", is a very biased site, ultraconservative, and not a professional academic or journalist source, nor an eyewitness. This is Freemason-Conspiracy Theory stuff.
I believe that it is fair to call him "rightwing" since we have two sources that substantiates his sympathies towards fascism and Naziism. Considering the political atmosphere of the time, I "rightwing" seem a lot more accurate than, "moved to the right" which could imply that he was only a moderate from then on.
However, I will leave the text as it is unless other people feel that stressing Calles documented sympathies towards fascism must be included in the article. -- Hugo Estrada 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a new section under Mexico-U.S. relations. This was a major theme of his presidency, and an important chapter on Mexico's oil theme. Also, Ambassador Morrow, who arrived to Mexico in 1927, was going to play a key role in getting oil agreements and peace agreements of the Cristero War.
Please comment and edit. -- Hugo Estrada 03:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised to see the following line in the Calles article:
Can anyone provide evidence to substantiate the claim that Calles' father was not of Levantine (Syrian or Lebanese) origin or descent? Note that his father's last name was Elías (not Calles); Elías is a Syrian/Lebanese Christian surname, not a Spanish surname that I am aware of. (Note also that Syria/Lebanon were part of the Ottoman empire until after 1915, and all immigrants from the region were known in Latin America as turcos regardless of ethnicity.) -- Potosino ( talk) 03:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The article claims "Although he may not have called himself a Communist, he enacted polices in line with the 10 planks of Communism, such as the Central Bank and the government schools. Whether someone professes to be communist, socialist, marxist, or fascist the objective is always the same, smash the existing social order and rebuild it in your own image through violence. It has to be violent because these revolutions are never popular, contrary to the myths perpetuated by some."
ad sentence 1: the "ten planks of communism", i.e. the ten immediate measures proposed in the "Communist Manifesto" are not supposed to define what Communism is all about, and many of these measures have been carried out by governments w/o any communist ambition. That someone may have carried out a few or all of the immediate measures says nothing about their relationship with Communism.
ad sentence 2 & 3: completely unsupported claims! Left and right do not want the same, and there are moreover many cases in history of both leftist and right-wing revolutions with extensive popular bases.
All of this should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.92.94.145 ( talk) 16:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
LOL... You are so wrong. Calles himself wrote several times to the Ambassador of France denouncing Catholicism as something that hypnotizes the masses, and that he wished to see Catholicism and any religious faith eradicated so that the people will rely solely on the government and its resources. Do your research more. Calles was atheist and then later became "animistic" in his later years. But he was born out of wedlock, grew up with an alcholic father and hated religion because he thinks it corrupts the people into relying on deities rather than the government and Mexican constitution. Thats as plain englsih as it gets
HeartyBowl1989 (
talk)
22:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)HeartyBowl
Being an atheist is not the same as being a communist. Mexico has a strong anti-clerical streak. -- Hugo Estrada ( talk) 15:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems very unlikely that Calles was both a Freemason and an atheist, given that freemasonry requires a belief in a "higher-being". The only source given seems very low quality, a sort-of pop-history "Who's Who" of Freemasons that lacks any primary sources. Does anyone know of a reliable source supporting the claim that Calles was a Freemason? Glaucus ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:BRD and WP:TALKDONTREVERT, This comment concerns this edit and this revert.
(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoxoxes.)
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." -- Penn Jillette
"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher
There are many reasons for not saying "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes. They include:
It implies something that is not true
It is highly objectionable to many atheists.
It goes against consensus
It is unsourced
It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry
It violates the principle of least astonishment.
In many cases, it technically correct, but incomplete to the point of being misleading.
In my opinion, "Religion = None" is the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 08:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
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His parents never married in spite of having two children together, could someone please add an explanation for this because Mexican society (including the atheists) was more conservative in the 1800s. 42.107.64.1 ( talk) 23:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)