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Example of viri being used in medicine and virology:
http://supfam.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/SUPERFAMILY/cgi-bin/gen_list.cgi?genome=ha for more examples please see: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=viri+herpes&btnG=Search
There doesn't seem to be any mention here of 'virii' being the accepted plural of _computer_ virus.
If the published standard work on a subject makes a clear statement of fact, it is not valid for contributors to bring Wikipedia into [further] disrepute by ignoring that statement. Cassell's Latin Dictionary is the standard work on the subject and clearly states, in the 1959 edition, that the plural of virus is viri. I suggest consulting that work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you find it argumentative. It is simply a statement of a fact, to whit: an acknowledged reference book on the subject makes a statement flatly contradicting the entry. I'm simply following Wikipedia guidelines that entries must not be speculative. I will be happy to see the edit revised in a manner that you find less contentious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 13:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I had no intention of taking over the article and hope that the latest version is acceptable to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Cassell's is not the only standard reference; it's a good small one but there are a few larger ones (Lewis and Short? OLD? Aren't those truer standards?). Anyway, are you sure that's what Cassell's says? Are you sure it gives the plural, and not the genitive singular, which is also "viri"? Adam Bishop ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It gives the singular as virus; the plural as i (the stem being vir) and the gender as n. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Adam, it's quite clear that your research trumps mine. I apologise if my efforts seemed confrontational but am pleased that the outcome was to improve the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that the rules for making plurals and conjugating verbs were made up out of whole cloth to explain how already existing lanuages work. They do not exist to to "rule" languages. Languages are dynamic. In order for Wikipedia to become a leader and authority as a reference it has to lead, not follow.
Example, The OED just added 'bootyliscous' to its online dictionary. Prescriptivists would insist that it is not a word, but words are... whatever people are using, whether they follow the static rules or not. When the words people are using don't follow the rules then it is the rules which are incorrect and out of date, not the word. (Note - yes it is understood that not all made up words enter a given language. There has to be some minimum amount of large scale adoption, but how much adoption it takes is a grey area.) Jjk 20:01, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Don't know if I'm reopening an old debate, but the phrase "This form of the plural is correct" on the top of a wikipedia article looks very out-of-place in comparaison with our neutrality on other articles. If that statement is true then it must mean that the linguistic debate of Prescription and description has been conclusively solved to the satisfaction of everyone concerned. Yet the relevant linguistics pages don't seem to support that level of certaintly, that one word can be labelled as "correct" and another cannot.
The Linguistics page has this quote:
"Whereas prescriptivists might want to stamp out what they perceive as "incorrect usage", descriptivists seek to find the root of such usage; they might describe it simply as "idiosyncratic", or they may discover a regularity that the prescriptivists do not like because it is perhaps too new or from a dialect they do not approve of."
which gives an interesting perspective to this article: people have arrived at this place out of curiosity about a particular word, what it means, who uses it and why. And in response we tell them "x is correct, y is not" in the first paragraph. Should we not investigate the history and usage of virii here, rather than lecturing the reader (if that's possible!) about why their favourite word is wrong.
Ojw 23:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Jjk and Fubar Obfusco, I think that with a few simple changes, we can address both of your concerns in this article. I'd like to hear what you think about the following proposal:
Jjk: Is it acceptable if we do not state in the article that "virii" and "viri" *are* alternative forms, but just that they are *used* as such? That would maybe solve Fubar Obfusco's complaint that using a word does not make it an "alternative form". Readers can form their opinion about whether it is an alternative or not based on the argument list in the article.
Fubar Obfusco: It is acceptable to mention the arguments for the correctness of the alternative plurals? If I understand Jjk correctly, he just wants that this position is mentioned in the article, not that it is actually endorsed.
Sietse 22:23, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Sietse, I'm looking for an actual NPOV treatment of this subject. This means we can't lead in with any statement that "Viruses" is the only correct form or that only sript kiddies use the viri(i) forms.
For a fair and balanced treatment of the subject those arguments have to go in the the "arguments" section of a the article, with appropriate citations for their source of authority. The lead in statements should just introduce the concept and the issue being examined. So far Fubar does not seem to be interested anything resembling that. But it would be great if he is. (How 'bout it, Fubar?) Jjk 06:00, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good ideas, Sietse.
I used "bracketing" in the sense that I learned in studying sociology, and which I've also read in treatments of comparative theology. It means something similar to the "NPOV treatment" sometimes used here on Wikipedia: writing so that rather than taking oppositional sides, one describes what the sides are -- but in a non-aggressive, non-defensive manner.
There's a way to describe disagreeing views in which one creates lists of "pro" and "con" points, which leads to editors who personally hold each view trying to strengthen their preferred side and undermine the other. This is not bracketing; it's setting up for a fight. It leads to people either attacking the other when they feel their position is strong, or becoming defensive and putting up shoddy arguments rather than "admit defeat". This is why "pro" and "con" lists are not a great thing for Wikipedia articles. They have caused problems before, for instance, in articles such as Creationism.
For instance, the position up on the "justifications" section right now, that "virii" is "computer science jargon", is simply put a false statement. First, computer science doesn't particularly deal with viruses, although information technology does. Second, "virii" is not jargon, since it does not fill the purpose that jargon words do. Jargon is specialist technical terminology used to express distinctions that mainstream language lacks. In ordinary, imprecise English it is fine to say that water is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, meaning simply that it contains both. But in chemistry jargon this is false, since water is a compound, which means something different from a mixture. This distinction is utterly necessary to chemistry, which is the very reason there is a jargon word "compound" to denote it. "Virii" makes no such distinction, so it cannot be jargon.
Likewise, the "counters" section utterly fails to mention a couple of suppressed premises which make its position shakier: Words taken from Latin into English frequently have both English and Latinate plurals, as with "index" -> "indices", "indexes"; "penis" -> "penes", "penises". "Virus" is an awkward case, since it has no attested Latin plural. We do not know what a native Latin-speaker would think to use for a plural of "virus" if he needed one, and in any event "virus" did not even have its modern meaning when any native Latin-speakers existed! The prescriptive grammarian's further suppressed premise is that in the absence of a Latinate plural, one should use the English formation rather than trying to come up with an imitation Latinate plural. However, this suppressed premise is not proven or even stated; it is simply taken as given.
This, I think, expresses why I would be more comfortable with this article without the pro/con section; or with the points now found there (minus the ones that are simple falsehoods) recast into a non-combative format. -- FOo 03:07, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To the author: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. What is the purpose of this article? — Sverdrup (talk) 11:34, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For the un-named editor that thought the use of the phrase "Neologistic folk etymology" was just showing off, I would point out that it was lifted whole from the Wiktionary definition. Perhaps I should reference it. Yes, good point. TheNameWithNoMan ( talk) 16:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
in Latin, viri is not the correct plural because the "i" plural ending is only used for masculine nouns, and in any case, "viri" is Latin for "men"
Can someone provide evidence that virus could be a second declension neuter ending in us? I have never heard this before (the general view is that it is a 4th declension neuter). Anyway, there is no plural in the texts, because the word in its original usage didn't mean what it means today (indeed, the concept of a medical virus, much less a computer virus, was folded into our lexicon long after the decease of latin as a spoken language) and instead meant poison (virulent has the same root as virus). I believe it was used much like water, ie, a non-countable noun and thus always singular.
I'm not suggesting the 2nd declension neuter ending in -us is wrong, just that it would be nice to have some evidence. All in all, this article is rather lacking in evidence.
User:Sverdrup is right. A distilled version of this material would be highly appropriate at the disambiguation page. "Viruses" is normal in English-language usage. Wetman 05:57, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Some further observations: a fourth declension neuter noun would end in -u, not -us, as suggested above (cornu, genu...are there even any others?). If that was the case, the plural would be "virua," and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. (The second footnote in the article, which amazingly also seemed to claim that the 2nd declension neuter in general was rare, also still says the 4th declension neuter plural is -us, can that ever be true?)
Adam Bishop 09:14, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"There is some controversy about the plural form of virus in the English language."
Footnote: the modern-day Latin of the Latin Wikipedia virus page uses the word as a masculine invariable noun: virus bacteriophagus, de generis virus (genitive plural expected here). As far as I know, neuter nouns ending in -us are 3rd declention like corpus (body) or latus (side), plural corpora, latera. Same with adjectives like melius (pl. meliora) , neuter form of melior (better). Any chance our word belongs to that category? Philippe Magnabosco 15:35, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Virus is indeed usually thought of as a second-declension neuter noun. However, the Glossary of Later Latin to 600 A.D. (compiled by Alexander Souter) cites an instance in Ammiani Marcellini rerum gestarum libri where vīrus has a genitive singular form vīrūs, which would make the word a fourth-declension masculine noun. The word wasn't used in the plural, but its plural can be inferred to be vīrūs. Sure, this usage doesn't seem to be from the Classical Latin period, but users of Neo-Latin (like me) might not have a problem with it if they are using to refer to viruses (in the modern sense). In Neo-Latin, "computer viruses" might be vīrūs computātrālēs. However, I don't recommend using "virus" as an English plural.
I decided to look at the Virus entry at the Latin version of Wikipedia. We already know most of the information in the "etymologia et grammatica" (etymology and grammar) section (such as that the word virus is neuter, and a plural form of it wasn't used in antiquity), but it also indicates that the regimen sanitatis Salernitanum has a plural form virus. Ian-Miller 4:35, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)
The fourth justification for using the viri(i) forms doesn't seem to actually justify it. It reads:
This seems to simply be explaining that there is no known Latin plural for virus. If this is felt to be a good reason for preferring the faux-Latin plural over the standard English one, that should probably be explained more clearly in the article. Factitious 03:21, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
Not trying to convince anyone here, just writing down the numbers to save you looking them up! Viri is a family-name, b.t.w., and all of those searches refer to the pluralisation debate within the first page of results.
---
My Latin knowledge and books show this:
(from: Latin/Dutch dictionary, Amsterdam University Press) Vīrus, ī n
meaning: word vīirus, gen sing virī, neutrum
(from: Redde Rationa Retinenda, Wolters-Noordhoff Groningen) Nomina Substantiva: Only two possible declensions of vi&299: O-declination masculinum and O-declination neutrum. The dictionary tells us the word is neutrum, which means the word should have this declension:
o-decl. n | ||
---|---|---|
sing. | nom. | virus |
acc. | virus | |
abl. | viro | |
dat. | viro | |
gen. | virī | |
plur. | nom. | vira |
acc. | vira | |
abl. | viris | |
dat. | viris | |
gen. | virōrum |
However, the dictionary shows nothing about the existance of the plural in Latin. The existance of the word vir does not mean virus cannot be declensed with the O-declination; virī can be the gen sing. of either vir and vīrus, and the nom plur. of vir. One other important thing, IMO, is that a latin plural is not automatically a correct english plural.
(Just my $0.02)
It would appear that the word is not attested in classical Latin in the plural, and it is almost the only example of a neuter second-declension noun in -us (vulgus, the only other such word that i know of, similarly does not have a plural) so I think it's impossible to say what a Latin plural should have been if there had been one. But the existance of the word vir has nothing to do with the matter: vir in all its cases has a short i in its first syllable whereas in virus it's always has a long i - vīrus, vīrī, vīrō. By the way I can't find any justification in my reference books fro regarding it as fourth declension. rossb 23:23, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I had an epiphany today. The real plural of "virus" should be "virori"!!! Ah, the new Latin! :-D TShilo12 04:01, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Footnote 2 on this page claims that
Can anyone present a source for that meaning being inaccurate, apart from the fact that one recent dictionary doesn't have it? Nordstedts Latin-Swedish dictionary (2001), presumably produced independently from the undefined "most widely used Latin-English dictionaries", has a similar definition ("slem, saft"). I don't think it's impossible for it to be inaccurate, but I'd like to see a source. EldKatt ( Talk) 19:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm taking out the some-say-others-say tripe again:
"... are also used by some ...": Used by whom?
"... Some users of the Internet feel ...": What users feel?
"... considered correct ... includes them as correct ...": Considered by whom? "Correct" meaning what? Standard? Dialectal? Jargon? Orthodox?
"... The misformed plural virii ...": Misformed? But "Some-Say ..."
"... is frequently perceived to be ...": Perceived by whom?
"... It may have originated as whimsical usage on BBSs ..." Please. Says who? Based on what?
"... some claim that ... This claim also asserts that ...": Who claims that?
"... Supporters of this viewpoint are often accused of ...": What supporters? Accused by whom?
"... One opposing view is that ...": Whose opposing view?
"... Rather, it is said ...": Said by whom?
Note that the various "views" are still mentioned. But it adds nothing to lard them with vague authority pulled out of what some say could be something or other. Also, it's more accurate to acknowledge that, whether viri/virii are nonstandard or nonwords, people use them for different reasons. It isn't much of a mystery. Squib 21:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
It seems this made up plural form has spread to other words, like octopuses and such, does this classify Virii as a virus?
I've removed a "linguists note" added by 131.107.0.73 ( talk · contribs). It is completely unsourced, and states a point of view without attributing that point of view to the person who holds it, contrary to our neutral point of view policy. Uncle G 10:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, as a Latin teacher, and having read through this whole thing, I'm walking away with the following: The plural of virus is either viri (masc, plural, nominative, 2nd declension); virora (3rd neuter), virus (4th masc), or viru (4th neut). I really don't know if there's any evidence to argue for any of them. It all seems one big stretch to me to insist it must, or would have any wont to be, neuter. The OLD says viri, so that's what I'll preach publicly. -- Mrcolj 21:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me worth mentioning "cactus" (proper English plural "cactuses," with cacti (from botanical latin) as the more common and thus accepted usage) and "platypus" (plural apparently still up for debate) in this article. I think it's a little techno-centric to mention irregular pluralization via "leetspeak" when in fact (particularly in the American Southwest) English speakers often overgeneralize the -i as the plural form of words ending in -us. In fact Wikipedia's own article on English plurals notes the common use of irregular plurals from Latin and Greek. I don't think we need to have a huge treatise on linguistics, but it's worth mentioning why there is even a debate about the plural form (because while cactus and platypus are debated, words like radius or alumnus are not debated, due to common usage). Alaren 19:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The supposed link to the archived peer review is a link no nowhere. There is not even a matching page in the deletion log. What's going on here? — The Storm Surfer 23:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm just some random net jackass, so pardon me if this is a solecism: Isn't the fourth declension plural of virus actually virūs rather than viruus? Is "uu" some kind of alternate spelling for a long u? — 63.249.110.32 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I say vira, as it is a the word "virus", with a neuter second declension. Looking at this I find it rather obvious that the plural of virus is vira. A Neolatin word for virus is virum- and as I see it; virus declines just like virum, except it's "virus" in nominative singular. See also wiktionary:virus#Latin and la:Virus. What do you people think about this? -- BiT 19:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Copyright (c) 1993-2005 - Free for your use - Version 1.97Ed For updates and latest version check http://www.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm Comments? William Whitaker, Box 3036, McLean VA 22103 USA - whitaker@erols.com Input a word or line of Latin and ENTER to get the forms and meanings Or input @ and the name of a file containing words or lines Or input # to change parameters and mode of the program Or input ? to get help wherever available on individual parameters Two empty lines (just a RETURN/ENTER) from the keyboard exits the program English-to-Latin available ~E changes to English-to-Latin, ~L changes back [tilda E] =>virus vir.us N 2 1 NOM S N vir.us N 2 1 ACC S N virus, viri N N [XXXAO] venom (sg.), poisonous secretion of snakes/creatures/plants; acrid element; =>~e Language changed to ENGLISH_TO_LATIN Input a single English word (+ part of speech - N, ADJ, V, PREP, ...) =>virus virum, viri N N 2 2 N [GBXDK] virus;
— Chameleon 10:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Virus is coming in English language. its latin word "virus" means "poison;venom", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.146.98 ( talk) 14:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that a merge to Virus may be in order - it's not a terribly long article, and it doesn't do much to separate itself from the subject. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
We seem to have a new editor who has not contributed before, who feels that the article should be removed, perhaps in reaction to my restoration of his un-discussed deletions of a whole section. Now he wants it all gone. Those who feel differently ought to make their thoughts heard now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheNameWithNoMan ( talk • contribs) 17:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the rescue template. There is no reason to think there will be additional information that would meet the objections being raised at the afd, which are rather about whether or not the article is fundamentally appropriate, not lack of sourcing. DGG ( talk) 17:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
So we "keep" it by changing the title so that no one can find it. What's the betting that someone will now start a new "Plural of Virus" topic? TheNameWithNoMan ( talk) 20:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Mass nouns — such as air, rice, and helpfulness in English — pluralize only under special circumstances, hence the non-existence of plural forms.
Does this mean non-existence of attestations of such plural forms or non-existence of the possibility of a legitimate plural form? My guess is the former because the latter would make a self-contradicting sentence. ("They do pluralize (in special circumstances), but plurals can't exist.") Anyone else read the quote as ambiguous? — 63.249.110.34 ( talk) 20:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed some references to the self published material. The material in question was a self published rant/essay that was from a non-authoritative source. The author of the essay is a well respected writer of programming books about Perl but expertise in one domain does not automatically transfer to another domain. please don't get upset if you happen to like the man's work. I happen to like his work myself. Turning around in my chair and counting it looks like I have about 9 of his books, because every time a new version Of one of them comes out, I have to buy it!
I have been trying to understand Wikipedia requirements for citations and sources lately and it's been an interesting read. I've added the shortcut to the Wikipedia verifiability page which addresses a ton of different aspects of issues about sources. If you want to take a peek at it before adding any citations to the article it couldn't hurt. WP:V
This entry was created using Dragon NaturallySpeaking's speech recognition system. This creates the possibility that there may be mistranslated text in this entry.
The article claims that the Oxford English Dictionary (2004) lists "octopi" as a plural. My own (print form) 2004 Concise Oxford Dictionary does not list it at all as a plural, but it quite simply says: "The plural form octopi, formed according to rules for Latin plurals, is incorrect." Unless someone can show that the Oxford Dictionary has changed its stance, I propose to change this claim. — Quondum 13:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it a general rule that Greek donor words ending in -us add -es to form the plural? As in hippopotamuses? Perhaps it would be better to add a section on Greek donor words instead of listing octopus and platypus as exceptions. Right now the article only really considers Latin derived words. Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Schulien ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
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Example of viri being used in medicine and virology:
http://supfam.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/SUPERFAMILY/cgi-bin/gen_list.cgi?genome=ha for more examples please see: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=viri+herpes&btnG=Search
There doesn't seem to be any mention here of 'virii' being the accepted plural of _computer_ virus.
If the published standard work on a subject makes a clear statement of fact, it is not valid for contributors to bring Wikipedia into [further] disrepute by ignoring that statement. Cassell's Latin Dictionary is the standard work on the subject and clearly states, in the 1959 edition, that the plural of virus is viri. I suggest consulting that work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you find it argumentative. It is simply a statement of a fact, to whit: an acknowledged reference book on the subject makes a statement flatly contradicting the entry. I'm simply following Wikipedia guidelines that entries must not be speculative. I will be happy to see the edit revised in a manner that you find less contentious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 13:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I had no intention of taking over the article and hope that the latest version is acceptable to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Cassell's is not the only standard reference; it's a good small one but there are a few larger ones (Lewis and Short? OLD? Aren't those truer standards?). Anyway, are you sure that's what Cassell's says? Are you sure it gives the plural, and not the genitive singular, which is also "viri"? Adam Bishop ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
It gives the singular as virus; the plural as i (the stem being vir) and the gender as n. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 18:15, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Adam, it's quite clear that your research trumps mine. I apologise if my efforts seemed confrontational but am pleased that the outcome was to improve the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejanus.sejanus ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that the rules for making plurals and conjugating verbs were made up out of whole cloth to explain how already existing lanuages work. They do not exist to to "rule" languages. Languages are dynamic. In order for Wikipedia to become a leader and authority as a reference it has to lead, not follow.
Example, The OED just added 'bootyliscous' to its online dictionary. Prescriptivists would insist that it is not a word, but words are... whatever people are using, whether they follow the static rules or not. When the words people are using don't follow the rules then it is the rules which are incorrect and out of date, not the word. (Note - yes it is understood that not all made up words enter a given language. There has to be some minimum amount of large scale adoption, but how much adoption it takes is a grey area.) Jjk 20:01, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Don't know if I'm reopening an old debate, but the phrase "This form of the plural is correct" on the top of a wikipedia article looks very out-of-place in comparaison with our neutrality on other articles. If that statement is true then it must mean that the linguistic debate of Prescription and description has been conclusively solved to the satisfaction of everyone concerned. Yet the relevant linguistics pages don't seem to support that level of certaintly, that one word can be labelled as "correct" and another cannot.
The Linguistics page has this quote:
"Whereas prescriptivists might want to stamp out what they perceive as "incorrect usage", descriptivists seek to find the root of such usage; they might describe it simply as "idiosyncratic", or they may discover a regularity that the prescriptivists do not like because it is perhaps too new or from a dialect they do not approve of."
which gives an interesting perspective to this article: people have arrived at this place out of curiosity about a particular word, what it means, who uses it and why. And in response we tell them "x is correct, y is not" in the first paragraph. Should we not investigate the history and usage of virii here, rather than lecturing the reader (if that's possible!) about why their favourite word is wrong.
Ojw 23:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Jjk and Fubar Obfusco, I think that with a few simple changes, we can address both of your concerns in this article. I'd like to hear what you think about the following proposal:
Jjk: Is it acceptable if we do not state in the article that "virii" and "viri" *are* alternative forms, but just that they are *used* as such? That would maybe solve Fubar Obfusco's complaint that using a word does not make it an "alternative form". Readers can form their opinion about whether it is an alternative or not based on the argument list in the article.
Fubar Obfusco: It is acceptable to mention the arguments for the correctness of the alternative plurals? If I understand Jjk correctly, he just wants that this position is mentioned in the article, not that it is actually endorsed.
Sietse 22:23, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Sietse, I'm looking for an actual NPOV treatment of this subject. This means we can't lead in with any statement that "Viruses" is the only correct form or that only sript kiddies use the viri(i) forms.
For a fair and balanced treatment of the subject those arguments have to go in the the "arguments" section of a the article, with appropriate citations for their source of authority. The lead in statements should just introduce the concept and the issue being examined. So far Fubar does not seem to be interested anything resembling that. But it would be great if he is. (How 'bout it, Fubar?) Jjk 06:00, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good ideas, Sietse.
I used "bracketing" in the sense that I learned in studying sociology, and which I've also read in treatments of comparative theology. It means something similar to the "NPOV treatment" sometimes used here on Wikipedia: writing so that rather than taking oppositional sides, one describes what the sides are -- but in a non-aggressive, non-defensive manner.
There's a way to describe disagreeing views in which one creates lists of "pro" and "con" points, which leads to editors who personally hold each view trying to strengthen their preferred side and undermine the other. This is not bracketing; it's setting up for a fight. It leads to people either attacking the other when they feel their position is strong, or becoming defensive and putting up shoddy arguments rather than "admit defeat". This is why "pro" and "con" lists are not a great thing for Wikipedia articles. They have caused problems before, for instance, in articles such as Creationism.
For instance, the position up on the "justifications" section right now, that "virii" is "computer science jargon", is simply put a false statement. First, computer science doesn't particularly deal with viruses, although information technology does. Second, "virii" is not jargon, since it does not fill the purpose that jargon words do. Jargon is specialist technical terminology used to express distinctions that mainstream language lacks. In ordinary, imprecise English it is fine to say that water is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, meaning simply that it contains both. But in chemistry jargon this is false, since water is a compound, which means something different from a mixture. This distinction is utterly necessary to chemistry, which is the very reason there is a jargon word "compound" to denote it. "Virii" makes no such distinction, so it cannot be jargon.
Likewise, the "counters" section utterly fails to mention a couple of suppressed premises which make its position shakier: Words taken from Latin into English frequently have both English and Latinate plurals, as with "index" -> "indices", "indexes"; "penis" -> "penes", "penises". "Virus" is an awkward case, since it has no attested Latin plural. We do not know what a native Latin-speaker would think to use for a plural of "virus" if he needed one, and in any event "virus" did not even have its modern meaning when any native Latin-speakers existed! The prescriptive grammarian's further suppressed premise is that in the absence of a Latinate plural, one should use the English formation rather than trying to come up with an imitation Latinate plural. However, this suppressed premise is not proven or even stated; it is simply taken as given.
This, I think, expresses why I would be more comfortable with this article without the pro/con section; or with the points now found there (minus the ones that are simple falsehoods) recast into a non-combative format. -- FOo 03:07, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To the author: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. What is the purpose of this article? — Sverdrup (talk) 11:34, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For the un-named editor that thought the use of the phrase "Neologistic folk etymology" was just showing off, I would point out that it was lifted whole from the Wiktionary definition. Perhaps I should reference it. Yes, good point. TheNameWithNoMan ( talk) 16:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
in Latin, viri is not the correct plural because the "i" plural ending is only used for masculine nouns, and in any case, "viri" is Latin for "men"
Can someone provide evidence that virus could be a second declension neuter ending in us? I have never heard this before (the general view is that it is a 4th declension neuter). Anyway, there is no plural in the texts, because the word in its original usage didn't mean what it means today (indeed, the concept of a medical virus, much less a computer virus, was folded into our lexicon long after the decease of latin as a spoken language) and instead meant poison (virulent has the same root as virus). I believe it was used much like water, ie, a non-countable noun and thus always singular.
I'm not suggesting the 2nd declension neuter ending in -us is wrong, just that it would be nice to have some evidence. All in all, this article is rather lacking in evidence.
User:Sverdrup is right. A distilled version of this material would be highly appropriate at the disambiguation page. "Viruses" is normal in English-language usage. Wetman 05:57, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Some further observations: a fourth declension neuter noun would end in -u, not -us, as suggested above (cornu, genu...are there even any others?). If that was the case, the plural would be "virua," and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. (The second footnote in the article, which amazingly also seemed to claim that the 2nd declension neuter in general was rare, also still says the 4th declension neuter plural is -us, can that ever be true?)
Adam Bishop 09:14, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"There is some controversy about the plural form of virus in the English language."
Footnote: the modern-day Latin of the Latin Wikipedia virus page uses the word as a masculine invariable noun: virus bacteriophagus, de generis virus (genitive plural expected here). As far as I know, neuter nouns ending in -us are 3rd declention like corpus (body) or latus (side), plural corpora, latera. Same with adjectives like melius (pl. meliora) , neuter form of melior (better). Any chance our word belongs to that category? Philippe Magnabosco 15:35, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Virus is indeed usually thought of as a second-declension neuter noun. However, the Glossary of Later Latin to 600 A.D. (compiled by Alexander Souter) cites an instance in Ammiani Marcellini rerum gestarum libri where vīrus has a genitive singular form vīrūs, which would make the word a fourth-declension masculine noun. The word wasn't used in the plural, but its plural can be inferred to be vīrūs. Sure, this usage doesn't seem to be from the Classical Latin period, but users of Neo-Latin (like me) might not have a problem with it if they are using to refer to viruses (in the modern sense). In Neo-Latin, "computer viruses" might be vīrūs computātrālēs. However, I don't recommend using "virus" as an English plural.
I decided to look at the Virus entry at the Latin version of Wikipedia. We already know most of the information in the "etymologia et grammatica" (etymology and grammar) section (such as that the word virus is neuter, and a plural form of it wasn't used in antiquity), but it also indicates that the regimen sanitatis Salernitanum has a plural form virus. Ian-Miller 4:35, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)
The fourth justification for using the viri(i) forms doesn't seem to actually justify it. It reads:
This seems to simply be explaining that there is no known Latin plural for virus. If this is felt to be a good reason for preferring the faux-Latin plural over the standard English one, that should probably be explained more clearly in the article. Factitious 03:21, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
Not trying to convince anyone here, just writing down the numbers to save you looking them up! Viri is a family-name, b.t.w., and all of those searches refer to the pluralisation debate within the first page of results.
---
My Latin knowledge and books show this:
(from: Latin/Dutch dictionary, Amsterdam University Press) Vīrus, ī n
meaning: word vīirus, gen sing virī, neutrum
(from: Redde Rationa Retinenda, Wolters-Noordhoff Groningen) Nomina Substantiva: Only two possible declensions of vi&299: O-declination masculinum and O-declination neutrum. The dictionary tells us the word is neutrum, which means the word should have this declension:
o-decl. n | ||
---|---|---|
sing. | nom. | virus |
acc. | virus | |
abl. | viro | |
dat. | viro | |
gen. | virī | |
plur. | nom. | vira |
acc. | vira | |
abl. | viris | |
dat. | viris | |
gen. | virōrum |
However, the dictionary shows nothing about the existance of the plural in Latin. The existance of the word vir does not mean virus cannot be declensed with the O-declination; virī can be the gen sing. of either vir and vīrus, and the nom plur. of vir. One other important thing, IMO, is that a latin plural is not automatically a correct english plural.
(Just my $0.02)
It would appear that the word is not attested in classical Latin in the plural, and it is almost the only example of a neuter second-declension noun in -us (vulgus, the only other such word that i know of, similarly does not have a plural) so I think it's impossible to say what a Latin plural should have been if there had been one. But the existance of the word vir has nothing to do with the matter: vir in all its cases has a short i in its first syllable whereas in virus it's always has a long i - vīrus, vīrī, vīrō. By the way I can't find any justification in my reference books fro regarding it as fourth declension. rossb 23:23, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I had an epiphany today. The real plural of "virus" should be "virori"!!! Ah, the new Latin! :-D TShilo12 04:01, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Footnote 2 on this page claims that
Can anyone present a source for that meaning being inaccurate, apart from the fact that one recent dictionary doesn't have it? Nordstedts Latin-Swedish dictionary (2001), presumably produced independently from the undefined "most widely used Latin-English dictionaries", has a similar definition ("slem, saft"). I don't think it's impossible for it to be inaccurate, but I'd like to see a source. EldKatt ( Talk) 19:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm taking out the some-say-others-say tripe again:
"... are also used by some ...": Used by whom?
"... Some users of the Internet feel ...": What users feel?
"... considered correct ... includes them as correct ...": Considered by whom? "Correct" meaning what? Standard? Dialectal? Jargon? Orthodox?
"... The misformed plural virii ...": Misformed? But "Some-Say ..."
"... is frequently perceived to be ...": Perceived by whom?
"... It may have originated as whimsical usage on BBSs ..." Please. Says who? Based on what?
"... some claim that ... This claim also asserts that ...": Who claims that?
"... Supporters of this viewpoint are often accused of ...": What supporters? Accused by whom?
"... One opposing view is that ...": Whose opposing view?
"... Rather, it is said ...": Said by whom?
Note that the various "views" are still mentioned. But it adds nothing to lard them with vague authority pulled out of what some say could be something or other. Also, it's more accurate to acknowledge that, whether viri/virii are nonstandard or nonwords, people use them for different reasons. It isn't much of a mystery. Squib 21:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
It seems this made up plural form has spread to other words, like octopuses and such, does this classify Virii as a virus?
I've removed a "linguists note" added by 131.107.0.73 ( talk · contribs). It is completely unsourced, and states a point of view without attributing that point of view to the person who holds it, contrary to our neutral point of view policy. Uncle G 10:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, as a Latin teacher, and having read through this whole thing, I'm walking away with the following: The plural of virus is either viri (masc, plural, nominative, 2nd declension); virora (3rd neuter), virus (4th masc), or viru (4th neut). I really don't know if there's any evidence to argue for any of them. It all seems one big stretch to me to insist it must, or would have any wont to be, neuter. The OLD says viri, so that's what I'll preach publicly. -- Mrcolj 21:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me worth mentioning "cactus" (proper English plural "cactuses," with cacti (from botanical latin) as the more common and thus accepted usage) and "platypus" (plural apparently still up for debate) in this article. I think it's a little techno-centric to mention irregular pluralization via "leetspeak" when in fact (particularly in the American Southwest) English speakers often overgeneralize the -i as the plural form of words ending in -us. In fact Wikipedia's own article on English plurals notes the common use of irregular plurals from Latin and Greek. I don't think we need to have a huge treatise on linguistics, but it's worth mentioning why there is even a debate about the plural form (because while cactus and platypus are debated, words like radius or alumnus are not debated, due to common usage). Alaren 19:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The supposed link to the archived peer review is a link no nowhere. There is not even a matching page in the deletion log. What's going on here? — The Storm Surfer 23:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm just some random net jackass, so pardon me if this is a solecism: Isn't the fourth declension plural of virus actually virūs rather than viruus? Is "uu" some kind of alternate spelling for a long u? — 63.249.110.32 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I say vira, as it is a the word "virus", with a neuter second declension. Looking at this I find it rather obvious that the plural of virus is vira. A Neolatin word for virus is virum- and as I see it; virus declines just like virum, except it's "virus" in nominative singular. See also wiktionary:virus#Latin and la:Virus. What do you people think about this? -- BiT 19:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Copyright (c) 1993-2005 - Free for your use - Version 1.97Ed For updates and latest version check http://www.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm Comments? William Whitaker, Box 3036, McLean VA 22103 USA - whitaker@erols.com Input a word or line of Latin and ENTER to get the forms and meanings Or input @ and the name of a file containing words or lines Or input # to change parameters and mode of the program Or input ? to get help wherever available on individual parameters Two empty lines (just a RETURN/ENTER) from the keyboard exits the program English-to-Latin available ~E changes to English-to-Latin, ~L changes back [tilda E] =>virus vir.us N 2 1 NOM S N vir.us N 2 1 ACC S N virus, viri N N [XXXAO] venom (sg.), poisonous secretion of snakes/creatures/plants; acrid element; =>~e Language changed to ENGLISH_TO_LATIN Input a single English word (+ part of speech - N, ADJ, V, PREP, ...) =>virus virum, viri N N 2 2 N [GBXDK] virus;
— Chameleon 10:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Virus is coming in English language. its latin word "virus" means "poison;venom", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.146.98 ( talk) 14:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that a merge to Virus may be in order - it's not a terribly long article, and it doesn't do much to separate itself from the subject. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
We seem to have a new editor who has not contributed before, who feels that the article should be removed, perhaps in reaction to my restoration of his un-discussed deletions of a whole section. Now he wants it all gone. Those who feel differently ought to make their thoughts heard now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheNameWithNoMan ( talk • contribs) 17:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the rescue template. There is no reason to think there will be additional information that would meet the objections being raised at the afd, which are rather about whether or not the article is fundamentally appropriate, not lack of sourcing. DGG ( talk) 17:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
So we "keep" it by changing the title so that no one can find it. What's the betting that someone will now start a new "Plural of Virus" topic? TheNameWithNoMan ( talk) 20:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Mass nouns — such as air, rice, and helpfulness in English — pluralize only under special circumstances, hence the non-existence of plural forms.
Does this mean non-existence of attestations of such plural forms or non-existence of the possibility of a legitimate plural form? My guess is the former because the latter would make a self-contradicting sentence. ("They do pluralize (in special circumstances), but plurals can't exist.") Anyone else read the quote as ambiguous? — 63.249.110.34 ( talk) 20:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed some references to the self published material. The material in question was a self published rant/essay that was from a non-authoritative source. The author of the essay is a well respected writer of programming books about Perl but expertise in one domain does not automatically transfer to another domain. please don't get upset if you happen to like the man's work. I happen to like his work myself. Turning around in my chair and counting it looks like I have about 9 of his books, because every time a new version Of one of them comes out, I have to buy it!
I have been trying to understand Wikipedia requirements for citations and sources lately and it's been an interesting read. I've added the shortcut to the Wikipedia verifiability page which addresses a ton of different aspects of issues about sources. If you want to take a peek at it before adding any citations to the article it couldn't hurt. WP:V
This entry was created using Dragon NaturallySpeaking's speech recognition system. This creates the possibility that there may be mistranslated text in this entry.
The article claims that the Oxford English Dictionary (2004) lists "octopi" as a plural. My own (print form) 2004 Concise Oxford Dictionary does not list it at all as a plural, but it quite simply says: "The plural form octopi, formed according to rules for Latin plurals, is incorrect." Unless someone can show that the Oxford Dictionary has changed its stance, I propose to change this claim. — Quondum 13:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it a general rule that Greek donor words ending in -us add -es to form the plural? As in hippopotamuses? Perhaps it would be better to add a section on Greek donor words instead of listing octopus and platypus as exceptions. Right now the article only really considers Latin derived words. Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Schulien ( talk • contribs) 14:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)