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In the 1980s in New York and New Jersey, "pink tide" had no association with politics. We used it to refer to the flushed--and-become-flotsam plastic tampon applicators which floated down the Hudson and accumulated in startling numbers on northern New Jersey beaches, as well as choking sea turtles which mistook the applicators as jellyfish, a normal food source.
I can't imagine that this was an isolated use of the phrase "pink tide"-- should we not have a new page describing that older, other use of the phrase? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethnessatwikipedia ( talk • contribs) 03:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anybody will really care for that older use of the term. Go to urbandictionary if you really want that to be known. Since I'm an aspie faggot, I read that site all the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgassman3 ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline ( talk) 10:04, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Pink tide → Turn to the left – According to the very article, "Pink Tide" is derogatory and less used. Google results seem to confirm it: 3.570.000 for "Turn to the left" and "South America", and only 15.300 for "Pink tide" and "South America". Google books show 2.240 and 145 for similar terms. Cambalachero ( talk) 01:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
He was seen as threat by whom? And did all people from his country saw him as threat? And of what period time we're talking about? I don't have access to the given source but, with the due respect for the one wrote it, this is obviously a partial truth. He is often considered a popular leader; BBC says he had "charisma that has sustained (his) popularity for many years", and Reuters call him "immensely popular". Of course he can be considered a threat and popular at the same time, and of course his popularity decreased as time passed; but how it's written now is just disproportionate. Gabriel Yuji ( talk) 00:30, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
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The pink tide is often stated as beginning in the late 1990s or in 1998 with Hugo Chávez. I will change the timeline accordingly since it stretches too far back to 1990.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 06:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Just created this so there is no potential edit warring occurring. Lede has been updated with new sources so hopefully its better.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 01:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
If you have any questions on why your content is innapropriate, let's have a discussion here. Cheers. Holy Goo ( talk) 01:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
That the article is biased is obvious but, to some extent, something to expect on the English Wikipedia as many Americans would have a natural hostility toward these processes for historical and cultural reasons, but other than that is obvious that the article in its current form would never pass the basic review for a normal Wikipedia article as the neutrality requirement is almost non-existent. In any case, my suggestions to solve this to some degree are:
The "pink tide" is a very complex international phenomenon and even a very subjective term. Each country has a very unique and different process with very unique and different historical, political and cultural background. To mix all together is a mistake anyway. Here you have things like the oldest democracy in Latin America coming out from a two-party system choosing a moderate centre-left social-democrat who graduate from a USA university (Costa Rica) in the same place of the first democratic government of a centre-left coalition after a brutal far-right dictatorship supported by the USA (Chile), a Libertarian Socialist socially liberal president like Mujica (Uruguay) and a far-left populist in one of the most complicated political background of the world with Maduro (Venezuela). Is not rocket science that all this countries are very different and have very different background and should not be all mixed-up. -- TV Guy ( talk) 23:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Dereck Camacho: You keep talking about Chile and other pink tide countries that are not in an economic crisis or are not corrupt. I understand that Chile and Uruguay are doing fine overall. I'm not saying all of them are corrupt or authoritarian. The correct thing that you should have done is change a few words. Maybe add "some countries" before "authoritarian-leaning", for example. But you decided to delete a lot of valid content and added a bunch of quotes from far-left scholars, among other things. That's why you were reverted. That's what happens when people get too radical Holy Goo ( talk) 01:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I was adding to this article as you guys were discussing on here, have a look. I made the edits since I saw that there was a conflict occurring. Hopefully this helps some and I'm looking to expand some more.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 02:06, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
You can all work on this in one of my sandboxes if you'd like. I'm not sure if there is a policy against editing users sandboxes, but it's fine with me in this case. I'll try not to touch it too much so you can place what you think should be in the article.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 00:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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@ Dereck Camacho: Please refrain from edit warring. I have not finished edits and you are already reverting them. Please bring your concerns here.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 23:54, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I personally have no sympathy for Venezuela’s or Iran’s governments, nor for any authoritarian government (including the US, that is an oligarchy and not a democracy, and some of his closest allies like Honduras, Paraguay and let's not forget Saudi Arabia). I’m a Libertarian. But I do find hypocritical, or at the very least naïve at best, that some people think the US media is not as biased and partialized and do not respond to some powerful interests whether from the US government of the big corporations (that is the same). In any case, I was able to find information from many other sources for the edits I wanted. -- TV Guy ( talk) 05:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Well I did, as long ago spoken, the subsection for each of the countries, with Central America grouped together. I think that gives enough context for the complex historical and cultural reasons that brought these left-wing governments into power, which was not a coincidence. Is a similar pattern: Democratically elected governments that are not Washington favorite for some reason are attacked by economic warring and/or CIA-endorsed violent coups that end in long-lasting far-right dictatorships sustain by the US-government (really, after investigating about these issues I was disgusted, I knew the US had some involvement but didn’t knew how much, to the point of having Nixon congratulating Stroessner in person or sending American advisors to torture centers). The dictatorships were followed by democratic, yet right-wing, governments that apply Washington-guided neoliberal economic policies, poverty and inequality go rampant whether because of these policies or at the very least because they couldn’t prevent this from happening, and of course an anti-American sentiment was fed after so many years of bad governments followed by questioning if capitalism even works. It’s kind of natural that this was gonna happen. Is similar on how in Eastern Europe the peoples there are staunchly anti-Communists after decades of similar situation with authoritarian governments and bad economies during the political control of the USSR. Anyway, I think the article is much more neutral now.
But I do think the corruption section should be split among the different countries that they mention. If not, then a similar context should be given with precedents and an understanding of the historical problem of corruption in the subcontinent. -- TV Guy ( talk) 05:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The big issue here is that this article derailed at some point. If you check the same article in other languages, most notably Spanish and Portuguese that are the languages of origin of these governments, they are incredibly small. They limit themselves to just inform about what the term means and list the governments that encompasses it.
But at some point here, some users, probably politically motivated, thought that it was a good idea to show that these were horrific tyrannical corrupt governments that broke their economies and caused massive protests. Of course this is only true in the case of a couple of them, like Venezuela, certainly not truth in Uruguay, Chile, Costa Rica, etc., so obviously editors from those countries felt it was fair to counterbalance the content and now we have this; a huge article with lots and lots of information because each side wants to counter the other one. And Wikipedia's policies do require as such. As far as the article is biased toward one side the other side has the right to counter.
As said in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three.
This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
(...) A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article.
(...)Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.
Now this policies have clearly not been followed in this version of the article.
The more salomonic option will be to just translate the Spanish article (or the Portuguese, they are essentially identical) and leave there. In case you wonder, what it says in a quick translation is this:
Pink tide, sometimes also turned to the left, is a term used in political analyzes in the twenty-first century to describe the perception that the ideology of the left in general, and the The political left in particular has an increasing influence in Latin America.
In 2005, the BBC reported that of the 350 million South Americans, three quarters lived in countries with "presidents who lean to the left, elected during the previous six years. According to the BBC," another common element of the 'pink tide' is the clear break with the Washington Consensus of the early 1990s, the mix of open markets and privatizations driven by the United States.
He has referred to the Latin American countries belonging to this ideological trend as "Pink Tide nations". "
Despite being relatively new, the term "pink tide" has been used prominently in contemporary discussions of Latin American politics. The origin of the term goes back to a phrase of Larry Rohter, a New York Times reporter in Montevideo, who characterized the election of Tabaré Vázquez as president of Uruguay as "not so much a red tide ... rather a pink one." the term seems to be a play on words based on replacing the red - color associated with communism - in "red tide" by the softer "pink" tone, to indicate the increase in forces of more moderate progressive and socialist ideas.
Then comes the list of presidents. I spare the references that it has out of practicality. But here you can see it.
Thus, althoug parts of the text may change, the more practical will be to just mention what the term means, who invented it and the list of governments, as almost all other languages do in order to avoid endless discussions and potential edit warrings. -- TV Guy ( talk) 19:52, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
A couple of things before we continue.
First, there is any Wikipedia policy that forbids or precludes the use of Iranian or any other country’s sources. If a media is from one particular country that’s not reason to exclude it and there’s not policy that allows it.
I’m not American nor Iranian, why should I think that the Iranian source is propaganda but the US sources aren’t? for me both countries are the same; foreign countries. I have no reasons to think that one is good and the other is evil, or that one has a nice government and the other has an evil one, or that the media in one is more neutral and objective or less manipulated that the media in the other. Of course, Iran never invaded my country, nor supported coups against our democratically elected presidents, so I may not understand exactly why an Iranian media is “bad” as a source, but unless there’s a policy that say so there’s no possible justification in excluding them.
So unless ZiaLater or any other user can justify with some specific Wikipedia policy why we can’t use a source from a media that is connected to Iran or any other country that is not the US I politely ask you to refrain from excluding media based on racial or national origin or I would have to take this to the noticeboards.
Second, the article is indeed bigger than normal. Much more than the versions in all other languages, particularly the Spanish and Portuguese versions. I suggested to make the article minimal and just translate the Spanish version and I present the option once again. But the length of the article is not coincidence, and let be honest here; there is a conscious effort to make the left-wing governments involved look as bad as possible on behalf of some users (in some cases is even funny because Humala for example is considered one of the most capitalist-friendly and pro-free market presidents Peru ever had, embracing the Pacific Alliance and making more liberal reforms that his predecessor García, he was leftist in name only and the bashing of him kind of backfires for the right).
Although this shouldn’t be the function of an Encyclopedia and more of an academic or opinion article, is the way it is now. But in order to keep with Wikipedia’s policy of neutral point of view (that was long lost in this article) then positive information about these governments has to be included as well as critical information of their rivals (though I’m thinking in doing an article about the New Right in Latin America that may help transferring some of the information). The thing is, whether keep adding everything bad that is related to these governments, and then the good, and so on in crescendo to never end, or we settle with certain limits of how much information is going to be added.
Similarly I mention again that the corruption section should be split among the countries that have it, is already repetitive, and yes I know you want to show that this governments are corrupt and having a whole section for the matter is an important part on that, but it’s still strange to have a whole section about cases that not only are mentioned in more detail later but also include only some of the countries and not all in an article about several countries. It's like having a corruption section about the OAS mentioning cases in Mexico and Colombia. If the section is not split at least should be rephrase to be a general discussion about corruption in the region with no specific cases. -- TV Guy ( talk) 22:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
User:Sisgeo, User:Holy Goo, User:El Ayudante, User:Dereck Camacho, User:Cambalachero , User:Asqueladd you have been active on the article recently. What's your opinion on reducing the article to the lenghts it has in the other languages, particularly Spanish and Portuguese. The possible end result will be something like this:
Pink tide, sometimes also turned to the left, is a term used in political analyzes in the twenty-first century to describe the perception that the ideology of the left in general, and the The political left in particular has an increasing influence in Latin America.
In 2005, the BBC reported that of the 350 million South Americans, three quarters lived in countries with "presidents who lean to the left, elected during the previous six years. According to the BBC," another common element of the 'pink tide' is the clear break with the Washington Consensus of the early 1990s, the mix of open markets and privatizations driven by the United States.
It has referred to the Latin American countries belonging to this ideological trend as "Pink Tide nations". "
Despite being relatively new, the term "pink tide" has been used prominently in contemporary discussions of Latin American politics. The origin of the term goes back to a phrase of Larry Rohter, a New York Times reporter in Montevideo, who characterized the election of Tabaré Vázquez as president of Uruguay as "not so much a red tide ... rather a pink one." the term seems to be a play on words based on replacing the red - color associated with communism - in "red tide" by the softer "pink" tone, to indicate the increase in forces of more moderate progressive and socialist ideas.
-- TV Guy ( talk) 22:03, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this paragraph should be reviewed. Is the opinion of an author but is presented as fact in the article, which is one (of many) examples of violation of Wikpedia's neutral point of view policy. It might be use as a quote establishing clearly that is the author's opinion, but as is now having one single author's opinion as fact without a counterpoint violates neutrality. -- TV Guy ( talk) 21:51, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
The popularity of such leftists governments was helped by their ability to use the commodity boom of the 2000s to initiate populist policies, though according to Daniel Lansberg this resulted in "high public expectations in regard to continuing economic growth, subsidies, and social services". [1] By 2005, the BBC reported that out of 350 million people in South America, three out of four of them lived in countries ruled by "left-leaning presidents" elected during the preceding six years. [2] As the prices of commodities lowered, coupled with overspending with little savings by pink tide governments, policies became unsustainable and supporters became disenchanted, eventually leading to the rejection of leftist governments. [1]
References
bbc2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).We are having some issues here and you are my trusted Latin America/political/neutrality users. Go ahead and take a look Softlavender, Panam2014, Cambalachero and Impru20. I do not want to touch a thing until we can figure some things out.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 22:47, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
@ ZiaLater: Hello. The article in its current summer is anything but neutral. He is too focused on the regimes of the 30s / 40s and he is too complacent to leftist populist politicians. So I think it needs to be updated. -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:21, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Glad that we have brought forth a discussion. This article has lacked focus ever since each country involved with the pink tide was added. Before we lost focus, this was how streamlined the article was. It was concise, it focused on the pink tide, it was to the point. The "Background" section could have used some expansion explaining what caused the pink tide (right-wings dictatorships, United States involvement, Cold War, etc.) but that was about it.
What I liked about the article when it was smaller like this is that it had a clear focus:
Now this previous article was not perfect. It needed to explain the "why this happened" more while also focusing on the characteristics of pink tide (possibly the addition a "Characteristics" section?). In previous discussions on this talk page it was discussed that not all of these governments are the same. Some governments, and I am using the words of scholarly sources, were more authoritarian and centralized while others were market friendly and transparent. This could be elaborated on in the proposed "Characteristics" section.
I will take the time to made some edits on this article in my sandbox (sandbox2) and invite each of you to take a look. Thanks for the responses!-- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'm happy to see some advance on mutual understanding too. Alright a couple of observations:
Any thoughts on all these? -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC) PD: Also maybe get rid of all the quotes except a couple in the Reception/Analysis section. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
OK here a counterproposal for discussion: User:ZiaLater/sandbox2#Counterproposal.
Some further observations ZiaLater about yours:
I think protests and public support will brought us to edit warring sooner or later and is quite speculative in nature. Protests happen also during the right-wing governments (as we know with Macri) while Public or popular support is hard to measure as for example Morales lost the referendum on re-election but gained a supermajority in Parliament soon after. Opposing one policy is not always opposing the government as such, another case is the mention of Dilma's impeachment but apart from manifestation of support for her Lula (even with a conviction) is currently the most popular political figure in Brazil according to polls and most likely the winner of the next election, so that section is very hard to measure objectively, it's better to leave it behind. I reduce the corruption section to convictions, I think there could be other ones (I think Ecuador's vice president was already convicted, don't know) I don't oppose to add new cases if they have convictions already.
Also notice how I moved everything that can be considered a subjective opinion to analysis section. Quotes should be converted into text, but we can keep a couple of them. Of course in order to have balance some pro-PT governments quotes and scholar sources should be added.
Oh and something which probably has nothing to do with the body of the article, in the timeline, can we change the colors to represent better the presidents? For example lime for Correa, yellow for Solís, orange for Concertación and so on? Maybe a nitpick but it kind of make sense. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:54, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
I like moving the "Reception" section down. I would not necessarily throw everything in that section though. I do not agree with having each country having a section though, that is why I incorporated the quote above. The "Characteristics" section in my proposal is supposed to address some of this "complexity", it is not finished as of now and was proposed framework. I think it is important to explain how some of these countries still relied on neo-liberal policies which could be mentioned in the "Characteristics" section. I will make some changes to my proposal and see where we go.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 05:21, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Ok so I made some recent bold edits as well. I found a good literature review which covered much of the pink tide. I have more scholarly sources lined up as well for the near future. I like the idea of keeping the country section there for now so we can make later additions.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
If no one opposes the idea of using representative colors instead of random, I don't know how to change the ones that said rpg, so if anyone volunteers these are the colors generally associated with the parties' in question:
Naturally those who repeit red can use a different tonality like brown, crimson or pink. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 10:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
The consensus is to include the proposed text after incorporating the wording change modifications from Markbassett and TimTempleton.
Requesting other opinions surrounding the inclusion of the role that the 2000s commodities boom played with pink tide governments, their use of populism and unsustainable policies surrounding the boom. I have provided scholarly sources supporting the inclusion of this information though others have called it "subjective". Looking for a more thorough discussion and oversight on this article.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
“ | With the difficulties facing emerging markets across the world at the time, Latin Americans turned away from the liberal economics and used the promoted democracy to elect leftist leaders.
[1] The popularity of such leftist governments relied upon by their ability to use
the commodity boom of the 2000s to initiate populist policies.
[2]
[3] According to Daniel Lansberg this resulted in "high public expectations in regard to continuing economic growth, subsidies, and social services".
[3] With China becoming a more industrialized nation at the same time and requiring resources for its growing economy, it took advantage of the strained relations with the United States and partnered with the leftist governments.
[2]
[1]
As the prices of commodities lowered, coupled with overspending with little savings by pink tide governments, policies became unsustainable and supporters became disenchanted, eventually leading to the rejection of leftist governments. [3] The pink tide's rise and fall was "a byproduct of the commodity cycle's acceleration and decadence". [2] |
” |
... half a dozen countries, led by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, formed a hard-left anti-American bloc with authoritarian tendencies...
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The fate of Latin America's left turn has been closely associated with the commodities boom (or supercycle) of the 2000s, largely due to rising demand from emerging markets, notably China.
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“ | As a result, some scholars have asserted that the pink tide's rise and fall was "a byproduct of the commodity cycle's acceleration and decadence". | ” |
Looking at the article, there is no new information discussed about the "pink tide" after 2014 since most of his has been removed. I will add back some of the information that was previously here since a lot has changed since 2014...---- ZiaLater ( talk) 00:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The BACKGROUND sections mentions that apart from Costa Rica any other Latinamerican country has endured at least a dictatorship supported by US, Mexico although North America (which normally has to be explained as well) is also Latinamerica. Last dictator of Mexico was Porfirio Diaz who was deposed as consequence of the Mexican Revolution in 1910, no further dictators afterwards. It is arguably that in effect after Mexican revolution the party created as result (PRI) establish itself as the only ruling party for 72 years being in this case a "Party Dictatorship", nevertheless any abuse committed during this period was not of right-wing nature, in fact in concept the party was originally leftish turning quickly to centre.
No militaristic rule and non-related to the after WW2 cold war clash in between the Capitalism and Communism, in any case some sources of would claim intervention of CIA in assisting MExican government in stopping students movements in the 60s and 70s but still the president at the time had been already in power as part of this existing oligarchy.
My suggestion is either to remove the claim "Apart from Costa Rica) for a more generic "almost all Latinamerican countries" or being more detailed and actually produce a comprehensive full list of counries and dictators. CB — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:DA0C:B400:1188:27C0:77BE:AF28 ( talk) 12:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Given Costa Rica's clear alignment with the United States and the Lima Group, to the point that it condemns Venezuela’s government and it seems that it’s recognizing Guiadó as president same as the US, Canada, Colombia and Peru. Wouldn’t be a good idea to review Costa Rica’s status as Pink Tide? Yes PAC’s government is center-left but that is hardly enough, for that matter Alan García in Peru or Peña Nieto’s in Mexico could be considered similarly part of the long history of social-democratic governments in Latin America (both APRA and PRI are members of the Socialist International like is PAC). Opinions? Dereck Camacho, ZiaLater. -- TV Guy ( talk) 20:54, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Is still an issue? I personally think the article is already as neutral as it can be with such polemic subject. I will be ok with the removal of the template. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 21:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
It makes no sense to include the centrist Laurentino Cortizo as part of this wave, as Martin Torrijos, from the exact same party (PRD) was never included as part of the original one, when he was president between 2004 and 2009. Specially given that Cortizo is openly hostile to Maduro's government: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-election-winner-newsmaker/panamas-next-president-loves-texas-football-seeks-better-u-s-relations-idUSKCN1SC0AO MeneManager ( talk) 11:12, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Most of the leaders listed on this article are not hardcore leftists and some of them won election running with conservative allies,Lula da Silva being a case in point.Should former Guatemalan president Mister Alvaro Colom be on the list ? He was really moderate in his leftists stances but by Guatemala's traditionally conservative standarts he sure was a move to the left,he also kept friendly relations with Hugo Chavez.
The Historical Dictionary of Marxism mentions him as part of the Pink Tide
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=xbmCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA344&lpg=PA344&dq=alvaro+colom+pink+tide&source=bl&ots=14OKbFGiVI&sig=ACfU3U2pFXTBHAnIA2wXCvzAtJ9Q7SiXwg&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjavNjA5ennAhVsFLkGHa6dAugQ6AEwA3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=alvaro%20colom%20pink%20tide&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.121.109.78 ( talk) 08:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
In the 1980s in New York and New Jersey, "pink tide" had no association with politics. We used it to refer to the flushed--and-become-flotsam plastic tampon applicators which floated down the Hudson and accumulated in startling numbers on northern New Jersey beaches, as well as choking sea turtles which mistook the applicators as jellyfish, a normal food source.
I can't imagine that this was an isolated use of the phrase "pink tide"-- should we not have a new page describing that older, other use of the phrase? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethnessatwikipedia ( talk • contribs) 03:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anybody will really care for that older use of the term. Go to urbandictionary if you really want that to be known. Since I'm an aspie faggot, I read that site all the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgassman3 ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline ( talk) 10:04, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Pink tide → Turn to the left – According to the very article, "Pink Tide" is derogatory and less used. Google results seem to confirm it: 3.570.000 for "Turn to the left" and "South America", and only 15.300 for "Pink tide" and "South America". Google books show 2.240 and 145 for similar terms. Cambalachero ( talk) 01:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
He was seen as threat by whom? And did all people from his country saw him as threat? And of what period time we're talking about? I don't have access to the given source but, with the due respect for the one wrote it, this is obviously a partial truth. He is often considered a popular leader; BBC says he had "charisma that has sustained (his) popularity for many years", and Reuters call him "immensely popular". Of course he can be considered a threat and popular at the same time, and of course his popularity decreased as time passed; but how it's written now is just disproportionate. Gabriel Yuji ( talk) 00:30, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
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The pink tide is often stated as beginning in the late 1990s or in 1998 with Hugo Chávez. I will change the timeline accordingly since it stretches too far back to 1990.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 06:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Just created this so there is no potential edit warring occurring. Lede has been updated with new sources so hopefully its better.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 01:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
If you have any questions on why your content is innapropriate, let's have a discussion here. Cheers. Holy Goo ( talk) 01:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
That the article is biased is obvious but, to some extent, something to expect on the English Wikipedia as many Americans would have a natural hostility toward these processes for historical and cultural reasons, but other than that is obvious that the article in its current form would never pass the basic review for a normal Wikipedia article as the neutrality requirement is almost non-existent. In any case, my suggestions to solve this to some degree are:
The "pink tide" is a very complex international phenomenon and even a very subjective term. Each country has a very unique and different process with very unique and different historical, political and cultural background. To mix all together is a mistake anyway. Here you have things like the oldest democracy in Latin America coming out from a two-party system choosing a moderate centre-left social-democrat who graduate from a USA university (Costa Rica) in the same place of the first democratic government of a centre-left coalition after a brutal far-right dictatorship supported by the USA (Chile), a Libertarian Socialist socially liberal president like Mujica (Uruguay) and a far-left populist in one of the most complicated political background of the world with Maduro (Venezuela). Is not rocket science that all this countries are very different and have very different background and should not be all mixed-up. -- TV Guy ( talk) 23:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Dereck Camacho: You keep talking about Chile and other pink tide countries that are not in an economic crisis or are not corrupt. I understand that Chile and Uruguay are doing fine overall. I'm not saying all of them are corrupt or authoritarian. The correct thing that you should have done is change a few words. Maybe add "some countries" before "authoritarian-leaning", for example. But you decided to delete a lot of valid content and added a bunch of quotes from far-left scholars, among other things. That's why you were reverted. That's what happens when people get too radical Holy Goo ( talk) 01:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I was adding to this article as you guys were discussing on here, have a look. I made the edits since I saw that there was a conflict occurring. Hopefully this helps some and I'm looking to expand some more.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 02:06, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
You can all work on this in one of my sandboxes if you'd like. I'm not sure if there is a policy against editing users sandboxes, but it's fine with me in this case. I'll try not to touch it too much so you can place what you think should be in the article.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 00:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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@ Dereck Camacho: Please refrain from edit warring. I have not finished edits and you are already reverting them. Please bring your concerns here.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 23:54, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
I personally have no sympathy for Venezuela’s or Iran’s governments, nor for any authoritarian government (including the US, that is an oligarchy and not a democracy, and some of his closest allies like Honduras, Paraguay and let's not forget Saudi Arabia). I’m a Libertarian. But I do find hypocritical, or at the very least naïve at best, that some people think the US media is not as biased and partialized and do not respond to some powerful interests whether from the US government of the big corporations (that is the same). In any case, I was able to find information from many other sources for the edits I wanted. -- TV Guy ( talk) 05:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Well I did, as long ago spoken, the subsection for each of the countries, with Central America grouped together. I think that gives enough context for the complex historical and cultural reasons that brought these left-wing governments into power, which was not a coincidence. Is a similar pattern: Democratically elected governments that are not Washington favorite for some reason are attacked by economic warring and/or CIA-endorsed violent coups that end in long-lasting far-right dictatorships sustain by the US-government (really, after investigating about these issues I was disgusted, I knew the US had some involvement but didn’t knew how much, to the point of having Nixon congratulating Stroessner in person or sending American advisors to torture centers). The dictatorships were followed by democratic, yet right-wing, governments that apply Washington-guided neoliberal economic policies, poverty and inequality go rampant whether because of these policies or at the very least because they couldn’t prevent this from happening, and of course an anti-American sentiment was fed after so many years of bad governments followed by questioning if capitalism even works. It’s kind of natural that this was gonna happen. Is similar on how in Eastern Europe the peoples there are staunchly anti-Communists after decades of similar situation with authoritarian governments and bad economies during the political control of the USSR. Anyway, I think the article is much more neutral now.
But I do think the corruption section should be split among the different countries that they mention. If not, then a similar context should be given with precedents and an understanding of the historical problem of corruption in the subcontinent. -- TV Guy ( talk) 05:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
The big issue here is that this article derailed at some point. If you check the same article in other languages, most notably Spanish and Portuguese that are the languages of origin of these governments, they are incredibly small. They limit themselves to just inform about what the term means and list the governments that encompasses it.
But at some point here, some users, probably politically motivated, thought that it was a good idea to show that these were horrific tyrannical corrupt governments that broke their economies and caused massive protests. Of course this is only true in the case of a couple of them, like Venezuela, certainly not truth in Uruguay, Chile, Costa Rica, etc., so obviously editors from those countries felt it was fair to counterbalance the content and now we have this; a huge article with lots and lots of information because each side wants to counter the other one. And Wikipedia's policies do require as such. As far as the article is biased toward one side the other side has the right to counter.
As said in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three.
This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
(...) A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article.
(...)Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.
Now this policies have clearly not been followed in this version of the article.
The more salomonic option will be to just translate the Spanish article (or the Portuguese, they are essentially identical) and leave there. In case you wonder, what it says in a quick translation is this:
Pink tide, sometimes also turned to the left, is a term used in political analyzes in the twenty-first century to describe the perception that the ideology of the left in general, and the The political left in particular has an increasing influence in Latin America.
In 2005, the BBC reported that of the 350 million South Americans, three quarters lived in countries with "presidents who lean to the left, elected during the previous six years. According to the BBC," another common element of the 'pink tide' is the clear break with the Washington Consensus of the early 1990s, the mix of open markets and privatizations driven by the United States.
He has referred to the Latin American countries belonging to this ideological trend as "Pink Tide nations". "
Despite being relatively new, the term "pink tide" has been used prominently in contemporary discussions of Latin American politics. The origin of the term goes back to a phrase of Larry Rohter, a New York Times reporter in Montevideo, who characterized the election of Tabaré Vázquez as president of Uruguay as "not so much a red tide ... rather a pink one." the term seems to be a play on words based on replacing the red - color associated with communism - in "red tide" by the softer "pink" tone, to indicate the increase in forces of more moderate progressive and socialist ideas.
Then comes the list of presidents. I spare the references that it has out of practicality. But here you can see it.
Thus, althoug parts of the text may change, the more practical will be to just mention what the term means, who invented it and the list of governments, as almost all other languages do in order to avoid endless discussions and potential edit warrings. -- TV Guy ( talk) 19:52, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
A couple of things before we continue.
First, there is any Wikipedia policy that forbids or precludes the use of Iranian or any other country’s sources. If a media is from one particular country that’s not reason to exclude it and there’s not policy that allows it.
I’m not American nor Iranian, why should I think that the Iranian source is propaganda but the US sources aren’t? for me both countries are the same; foreign countries. I have no reasons to think that one is good and the other is evil, or that one has a nice government and the other has an evil one, or that the media in one is more neutral and objective or less manipulated that the media in the other. Of course, Iran never invaded my country, nor supported coups against our democratically elected presidents, so I may not understand exactly why an Iranian media is “bad” as a source, but unless there’s a policy that say so there’s no possible justification in excluding them.
So unless ZiaLater or any other user can justify with some specific Wikipedia policy why we can’t use a source from a media that is connected to Iran or any other country that is not the US I politely ask you to refrain from excluding media based on racial or national origin or I would have to take this to the noticeboards.
Second, the article is indeed bigger than normal. Much more than the versions in all other languages, particularly the Spanish and Portuguese versions. I suggested to make the article minimal and just translate the Spanish version and I present the option once again. But the length of the article is not coincidence, and let be honest here; there is a conscious effort to make the left-wing governments involved look as bad as possible on behalf of some users (in some cases is even funny because Humala for example is considered one of the most capitalist-friendly and pro-free market presidents Peru ever had, embracing the Pacific Alliance and making more liberal reforms that his predecessor García, he was leftist in name only and the bashing of him kind of backfires for the right).
Although this shouldn’t be the function of an Encyclopedia and more of an academic or opinion article, is the way it is now. But in order to keep with Wikipedia’s policy of neutral point of view (that was long lost in this article) then positive information about these governments has to be included as well as critical information of their rivals (though I’m thinking in doing an article about the New Right in Latin America that may help transferring some of the information). The thing is, whether keep adding everything bad that is related to these governments, and then the good, and so on in crescendo to never end, or we settle with certain limits of how much information is going to be added.
Similarly I mention again that the corruption section should be split among the countries that have it, is already repetitive, and yes I know you want to show that this governments are corrupt and having a whole section for the matter is an important part on that, but it’s still strange to have a whole section about cases that not only are mentioned in more detail later but also include only some of the countries and not all in an article about several countries. It's like having a corruption section about the OAS mentioning cases in Mexico and Colombia. If the section is not split at least should be rephrase to be a general discussion about corruption in the region with no specific cases. -- TV Guy ( talk) 22:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
User:Sisgeo, User:Holy Goo, User:El Ayudante, User:Dereck Camacho, User:Cambalachero , User:Asqueladd you have been active on the article recently. What's your opinion on reducing the article to the lenghts it has in the other languages, particularly Spanish and Portuguese. The possible end result will be something like this:
Pink tide, sometimes also turned to the left, is a term used in political analyzes in the twenty-first century to describe the perception that the ideology of the left in general, and the The political left in particular has an increasing influence in Latin America.
In 2005, the BBC reported that of the 350 million South Americans, three quarters lived in countries with "presidents who lean to the left, elected during the previous six years. According to the BBC," another common element of the 'pink tide' is the clear break with the Washington Consensus of the early 1990s, the mix of open markets and privatizations driven by the United States.
It has referred to the Latin American countries belonging to this ideological trend as "Pink Tide nations". "
Despite being relatively new, the term "pink tide" has been used prominently in contemporary discussions of Latin American politics. The origin of the term goes back to a phrase of Larry Rohter, a New York Times reporter in Montevideo, who characterized the election of Tabaré Vázquez as president of Uruguay as "not so much a red tide ... rather a pink one." the term seems to be a play on words based on replacing the red - color associated with communism - in "red tide" by the softer "pink" tone, to indicate the increase in forces of more moderate progressive and socialist ideas.
-- TV Guy ( talk) 22:03, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this paragraph should be reviewed. Is the opinion of an author but is presented as fact in the article, which is one (of many) examples of violation of Wikpedia's neutral point of view policy. It might be use as a quote establishing clearly that is the author's opinion, but as is now having one single author's opinion as fact without a counterpoint violates neutrality. -- TV Guy ( talk) 21:51, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
The popularity of such leftists governments was helped by their ability to use the commodity boom of the 2000s to initiate populist policies, though according to Daniel Lansberg this resulted in "high public expectations in regard to continuing economic growth, subsidies, and social services". [1] By 2005, the BBC reported that out of 350 million people in South America, three out of four of them lived in countries ruled by "left-leaning presidents" elected during the preceding six years. [2] As the prices of commodities lowered, coupled with overspending with little savings by pink tide governments, policies became unsustainable and supporters became disenchanted, eventually leading to the rejection of leftist governments. [1]
References
bbc2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).We are having some issues here and you are my trusted Latin America/political/neutrality users. Go ahead and take a look Softlavender, Panam2014, Cambalachero and Impru20. I do not want to touch a thing until we can figure some things out.-- ZiaLater ( talk) 22:47, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
@ ZiaLater: Hello. The article in its current summer is anything but neutral. He is too focused on the regimes of the 30s / 40s and he is too complacent to leftist populist politicians. So I think it needs to be updated. -- Panam2014 ( talk) 13:21, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Glad that we have brought forth a discussion. This article has lacked focus ever since each country involved with the pink tide was added. Before we lost focus, this was how streamlined the article was. It was concise, it focused on the pink tide, it was to the point. The "Background" section could have used some expansion explaining what caused the pink tide (right-wings dictatorships, United States involvement, Cold War, etc.) but that was about it.
What I liked about the article when it was smaller like this is that it had a clear focus:
Now this previous article was not perfect. It needed to explain the "why this happened" more while also focusing on the characteristics of pink tide (possibly the addition a "Characteristics" section?). In previous discussions on this talk page it was discussed that not all of these governments are the same. Some governments, and I am using the words of scholarly sources, were more authoritarian and centralized while others were market friendly and transparent. This could be elaborated on in the proposed "Characteristics" section.
I will take the time to made some edits on this article in my sandbox (sandbox2) and invite each of you to take a look. Thanks for the responses!-- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'm happy to see some advance on mutual understanding too. Alright a couple of observations:
Any thoughts on all these? -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC) PD: Also maybe get rid of all the quotes except a couple in the Reception/Analysis section. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
OK here a counterproposal for discussion: User:ZiaLater/sandbox2#Counterproposal.
Some further observations ZiaLater about yours:
I think protests and public support will brought us to edit warring sooner or later and is quite speculative in nature. Protests happen also during the right-wing governments (as we know with Macri) while Public or popular support is hard to measure as for example Morales lost the referendum on re-election but gained a supermajority in Parliament soon after. Opposing one policy is not always opposing the government as such, another case is the mention of Dilma's impeachment but apart from manifestation of support for her Lula (even with a conviction) is currently the most popular political figure in Brazil according to polls and most likely the winner of the next election, so that section is very hard to measure objectively, it's better to leave it behind. I reduce the corruption section to convictions, I think there could be other ones (I think Ecuador's vice president was already convicted, don't know) I don't oppose to add new cases if they have convictions already.
Also notice how I moved everything that can be considered a subjective opinion to analysis section. Quotes should be converted into text, but we can keep a couple of them. Of course in order to have balance some pro-PT governments quotes and scholar sources should be added.
Oh and something which probably has nothing to do with the body of the article, in the timeline, can we change the colors to represent better the presidents? For example lime for Correa, yellow for Solís, orange for Concertación and so on? Maybe a nitpick but it kind of make sense. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 23:54, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
I like moving the "Reception" section down. I would not necessarily throw everything in that section though. I do not agree with having each country having a section though, that is why I incorporated the quote above. The "Characteristics" section in my proposal is supposed to address some of this "complexity", it is not finished as of now and was proposed framework. I think it is important to explain how some of these countries still relied on neo-liberal policies which could be mentioned in the "Characteristics" section. I will make some changes to my proposal and see where we go.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 05:21, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Ok so I made some recent bold edits as well. I found a good literature review which covered much of the pink tide. I have more scholarly sources lined up as well for the near future. I like the idea of keeping the country section there for now so we can make later additions.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
If no one opposes the idea of using representative colors instead of random, I don't know how to change the ones that said rpg, so if anyone volunteers these are the colors generally associated with the parties' in question:
Naturally those who repeit red can use a different tonality like brown, crimson or pink. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 10:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
The consensus is to include the proposed text after incorporating the wording change modifications from Markbassett and TimTempleton.
Requesting other opinions surrounding the inclusion of the role that the 2000s commodities boom played with pink tide governments, their use of populism and unsustainable policies surrounding the boom. I have provided scholarly sources supporting the inclusion of this information though others have called it "subjective". Looking for a more thorough discussion and oversight on this article.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
“ | With the difficulties facing emerging markets across the world at the time, Latin Americans turned away from the liberal economics and used the promoted democracy to elect leftist leaders.
[1] The popularity of such leftist governments relied upon by their ability to use
the commodity boom of the 2000s to initiate populist policies.
[2]
[3] According to Daniel Lansberg this resulted in "high public expectations in regard to continuing economic growth, subsidies, and social services".
[3] With China becoming a more industrialized nation at the same time and requiring resources for its growing economy, it took advantage of the strained relations with the United States and partnered with the leftist governments.
[2]
[1]
As the prices of commodities lowered, coupled with overspending with little savings by pink tide governments, policies became unsustainable and supporters became disenchanted, eventually leading to the rejection of leftist governments. [3] The pink tide's rise and fall was "a byproduct of the commodity cycle's acceleration and decadence". [2] |
” |
... half a dozen countries, led by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, formed a hard-left anti-American bloc with authoritarian tendencies...
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The fate of Latin America's left turn has been closely associated with the commodities boom (or supercycle) of the 2000s, largely due to rising demand from emerging markets, notably China.
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“ | As a result, some scholars have asserted that the pink tide's rise and fall was "a byproduct of the commodity cycle's acceleration and decadence". | ” |
Looking at the article, there is no new information discussed about the "pink tide" after 2014 since most of his has been removed. I will add back some of the information that was previously here since a lot has changed since 2014...---- ZiaLater ( talk) 00:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The BACKGROUND sections mentions that apart from Costa Rica any other Latinamerican country has endured at least a dictatorship supported by US, Mexico although North America (which normally has to be explained as well) is also Latinamerica. Last dictator of Mexico was Porfirio Diaz who was deposed as consequence of the Mexican Revolution in 1910, no further dictators afterwards. It is arguably that in effect after Mexican revolution the party created as result (PRI) establish itself as the only ruling party for 72 years being in this case a "Party Dictatorship", nevertheless any abuse committed during this period was not of right-wing nature, in fact in concept the party was originally leftish turning quickly to centre.
No militaristic rule and non-related to the after WW2 cold war clash in between the Capitalism and Communism, in any case some sources of would claim intervention of CIA in assisting MExican government in stopping students movements in the 60s and 70s but still the president at the time had been already in power as part of this existing oligarchy.
My suggestion is either to remove the claim "Apart from Costa Rica) for a more generic "almost all Latinamerican countries" or being more detailed and actually produce a comprehensive full list of counries and dictators. CB — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:DA0C:B400:1188:27C0:77BE:AF28 ( talk) 12:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Given Costa Rica's clear alignment with the United States and the Lima Group, to the point that it condemns Venezuela’s government and it seems that it’s recognizing Guiadó as president same as the US, Canada, Colombia and Peru. Wouldn’t be a good idea to review Costa Rica’s status as Pink Tide? Yes PAC’s government is center-left but that is hardly enough, for that matter Alan García in Peru or Peña Nieto’s in Mexico could be considered similarly part of the long history of social-democratic governments in Latin America (both APRA and PRI are members of the Socialist International like is PAC). Opinions? Dereck Camacho, ZiaLater. -- TV Guy ( talk) 20:54, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Is still an issue? I personally think the article is already as neutral as it can be with such polemic subject. I will be ok with the removal of the template. -- Dereck Camacho ( talk) 21:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
It makes no sense to include the centrist Laurentino Cortizo as part of this wave, as Martin Torrijos, from the exact same party (PRD) was never included as part of the original one, when he was president between 2004 and 2009. Specially given that Cortizo is openly hostile to Maduro's government: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-panama-election-winner-newsmaker/panamas-next-president-loves-texas-football-seeks-better-u-s-relations-idUSKCN1SC0AO MeneManager ( talk) 11:12, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Most of the leaders listed on this article are not hardcore leftists and some of them won election running with conservative allies,Lula da Silva being a case in point.Should former Guatemalan president Mister Alvaro Colom be on the list ? He was really moderate in his leftists stances but by Guatemala's traditionally conservative standarts he sure was a move to the left,he also kept friendly relations with Hugo Chavez.
The Historical Dictionary of Marxism mentions him as part of the Pink Tide
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=xbmCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA344&lpg=PA344&dq=alvaro+colom+pink+tide&source=bl&ots=14OKbFGiVI&sig=ACfU3U2pFXTBHAnIA2wXCvzAtJ9Q7SiXwg&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjavNjA5ennAhVsFLkGHa6dAugQ6AEwA3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=alvaro%20colom%20pink%20tide&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.121.109.78 ( talk) 08:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC)