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I just changed "Minuetto" and "Marcia alla Turca" back to "Menuetto" and "Rondo alla Turca", which is how it was before and how it is in my version of the sheet music. However, my edition isn't a great one, and if there's an Urtext or something which gives "Minuetto" and "Marcia", then that's what we should say, of course (though probably with a note that "Rondo", while common, is actually wrong). -- Camembert
WRONG.... the rondo is the third movmt so it should be called "Rondo Alla Turka(turca)"
I changed the bolded common name to "Turkish Rondo" from "Turkish March" - because isn't the piece most commonly known (in the English speaking world, anyway) as the "Turkish March" an actual march piece by Beethoven? Ellsworth 22:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" really a version of this? It's clearly inspired by it, but it's a stretch to say that they're essentially the same piece... Ellsworth 22:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
ah, no
I seem to remember that this piece was used in Sid Meier's Civilization II as the theme for the Germans... should this be added as "Trivia"?
Should there be one? After all, if nothing else it is in the Truman Show (at least the third bit). Very famous piece.18:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It also appears in the CBS sitcom How I Met Your Mothe as the introductory peice when Barney describes a play to use a on a girl from his playbook — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.170.127.255 ( talk) 02:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I removed this edit because it was uncited: "Some say that that the last section of the sonata was added by Mozart's student, Sussymayer." This is too popular and familiar a piece to insert such a bold statement in a "some say that" manner. If it turns out this is true, we'll need a citation. Thanks. DavidRF ( talk) 16:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Is not there an imporvisation part or something in the piece and several vertions of it, I think something should be mentioned about it.
I have the Wiener Urtext Edition of this piece and it lists the tempo of the third movement as "Allegrino". According to the critical notes that's how it appears in the original edition. - Gus ( T, C) 2010-10-20 01:34Z
I changed this from A major to A minor (in which it opens) and major (in which it ends). Kostaki mou ( talk) 00:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
The lead says "All of the movements are in the key of A major or A minor." Is this strictly correct? The movements all start in A, but the trio in the minuet and trio of the second movement is in D major. -- Wikitoov ( talk) 11:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
This piece is sampled by the rapper Busdriver in the song 'Me Time (With The pulmonary palimpsest)'-- 122.106.118.226 ( talk) 02:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Rondo Alla Turca was used by the Turkish people for dances and parties (completely made this up). The editor of this page does not know how to spell improvisational. Don't trust every source! You may just stumble upon one like this one and realise the internet can't be trusted completely. I don't trust anyone who can't spell simple words.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.29.199.102 ( talk) 08:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Referring to this:
I simply don't think it's true, and I can see nothing in the music that supports it. Can I just remove this?
The main argument against regarding the first theme of the Rondo as a variation of the Theme in the first movement is that the first half of the Rondo theme clearly moves to the dominant key (E minor) and ends there, whereas the corresponding section in the variation Theme ends in the tonic (A major, and A minor in the minor-key variation). Other modulations, such as those in the second half of the respective themes, do not correspond, either - not even when you consider the minor-key variation, this being the one you'd expect to have the closest relationship with the minor-key Rondo theme.
To my mind, unless someone can show compelling correspondences between the two themes I've somehow missed, these two themes are not particularly related at all.
Another thing is that, at this time in musical history, it was quite uncommon for links between separate movements of a sonata or symphony to be put in. Beethoven made a tentative step in this direction occasionally, but it was mainly later composers like Liszt, Franck, Saint-Saens, Scriabin, and lots of late romantics, who did this in a big way - not Mozart or others of his era.
So I'm tempted to remove this remark, and will consider whether to or not. Does anyone object? M.J.E. ( talk) 08:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
User:Doniago insists that the following 2 sentences constitute original research and must be removed from the article:
The theme of the first movement was used by Max Reger in his Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Mozart (1914) for orchestra. Dave Brubeck's " Blue Rondo à la Turk" (1959) is not based on or related to the last movement, "Alla Turca".
I think that is an unnecessarily narrow view of WP:OR. Both assertions may not rise to the level of self-evidence that "Paris is the capital of France." provides. However, an inspection of the respective primary sources (the scores or recordings) to the permissible extent mentioned in WP:PRIMARY ("to describe the plot" ) will confirm both assertions. What's the alternative? I suggest to restore that section. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Which four pages were found? Out of how many? Where can we find good images of these pages? Can we add such images to this article? Where can we find an analysis of the differences between the various editions of the score? Where can we find performances of the original version? - 96.233.16.208 ( talk) 18:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
A lot of this information is not yet known. The new pages haven't been released to the public. It has been performed, but not recorded, by Zoltan Kocsis. Larghissimo ( talk) 20:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Ricce: "Menuetto" may not be used anymore in present-day Italian, but it was used in Mozart's day and cannot therefore be regarded as incorrect. Kostaki mou ( talk) 13:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
The first edition (Artaria, 1784) as well as urtext editions Barenreiter (1986) et Peters (1938) do not mention "rondo" anywhere.
Additionally, the musical form of the third movement is not a rondo. It is a compound ternary form with a bridge (C) between each of the ternary forms and a coda (F):
[A B A'] C [D E D'] C [A B A'] C' F
Note that with repeats the structure becomes:
[(A A) (B A' B A')] C C [(D D) (E D' E D')] C C [(A A) (B A' B A')] C' C' F
Therefore, nothing justifies the name rondo.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.59.42.236 ( talk) 21:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
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I just changed "Minuetto" and "Marcia alla Turca" back to "Menuetto" and "Rondo alla Turca", which is how it was before and how it is in my version of the sheet music. However, my edition isn't a great one, and if there's an Urtext or something which gives "Minuetto" and "Marcia", then that's what we should say, of course (though probably with a note that "Rondo", while common, is actually wrong). -- Camembert
WRONG.... the rondo is the third movmt so it should be called "Rondo Alla Turka(turca)"
I changed the bolded common name to "Turkish Rondo" from "Turkish March" - because isn't the piece most commonly known (in the English speaking world, anyway) as the "Turkish March" an actual march piece by Beethoven? Ellsworth 22:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Is Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" really a version of this? It's clearly inspired by it, but it's a stretch to say that they're essentially the same piece... Ellsworth 22:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
ah, no
I seem to remember that this piece was used in Sid Meier's Civilization II as the theme for the Germans... should this be added as "Trivia"?
Should there be one? After all, if nothing else it is in the Truman Show (at least the third bit). Very famous piece.18:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It also appears in the CBS sitcom How I Met Your Mothe as the introductory peice when Barney describes a play to use a on a girl from his playbook — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.170.127.255 ( talk) 02:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I removed this edit because it was uncited: "Some say that that the last section of the sonata was added by Mozart's student, Sussymayer." This is too popular and familiar a piece to insert such a bold statement in a "some say that" manner. If it turns out this is true, we'll need a citation. Thanks. DavidRF ( talk) 16:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Is not there an imporvisation part or something in the piece and several vertions of it, I think something should be mentioned about it.
I have the Wiener Urtext Edition of this piece and it lists the tempo of the third movement as "Allegrino". According to the critical notes that's how it appears in the original edition. - Gus ( T, C) 2010-10-20 01:34Z
I changed this from A major to A minor (in which it opens) and major (in which it ends). Kostaki mou ( talk) 00:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
The lead says "All of the movements are in the key of A major or A minor." Is this strictly correct? The movements all start in A, but the trio in the minuet and trio of the second movement is in D major. -- Wikitoov ( talk) 11:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
This piece is sampled by the rapper Busdriver in the song 'Me Time (With The pulmonary palimpsest)'-- 122.106.118.226 ( talk) 02:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Rondo Alla Turca was used by the Turkish people for dances and parties (completely made this up). The editor of this page does not know how to spell improvisational. Don't trust every source! You may just stumble upon one like this one and realise the internet can't be trusted completely. I don't trust anyone who can't spell simple words.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.29.199.102 ( talk) 08:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Referring to this:
I simply don't think it's true, and I can see nothing in the music that supports it. Can I just remove this?
The main argument against regarding the first theme of the Rondo as a variation of the Theme in the first movement is that the first half of the Rondo theme clearly moves to the dominant key (E minor) and ends there, whereas the corresponding section in the variation Theme ends in the tonic (A major, and A minor in the minor-key variation). Other modulations, such as those in the second half of the respective themes, do not correspond, either - not even when you consider the minor-key variation, this being the one you'd expect to have the closest relationship with the minor-key Rondo theme.
To my mind, unless someone can show compelling correspondences between the two themes I've somehow missed, these two themes are not particularly related at all.
Another thing is that, at this time in musical history, it was quite uncommon for links between separate movements of a sonata or symphony to be put in. Beethoven made a tentative step in this direction occasionally, but it was mainly later composers like Liszt, Franck, Saint-Saens, Scriabin, and lots of late romantics, who did this in a big way - not Mozart or others of his era.
So I'm tempted to remove this remark, and will consider whether to or not. Does anyone object? M.J.E. ( talk) 08:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
User:Doniago insists that the following 2 sentences constitute original research and must be removed from the article:
The theme of the first movement was used by Max Reger in his Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Mozart (1914) for orchestra. Dave Brubeck's " Blue Rondo à la Turk" (1959) is not based on or related to the last movement, "Alla Turca".
I think that is an unnecessarily narrow view of WP:OR. Both assertions may not rise to the level of self-evidence that "Paris is the capital of France." provides. However, an inspection of the respective primary sources (the scores or recordings) to the permissible extent mentioned in WP:PRIMARY ("to describe the plot" ) will confirm both assertions. What's the alternative? I suggest to restore that section. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Which four pages were found? Out of how many? Where can we find good images of these pages? Can we add such images to this article? Where can we find an analysis of the differences between the various editions of the score? Where can we find performances of the original version? - 96.233.16.208 ( talk) 18:33, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
A lot of this information is not yet known. The new pages haven't been released to the public. It has been performed, but not recorded, by Zoltan Kocsis. Larghissimo ( talk) 20:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Ricce: "Menuetto" may not be used anymore in present-day Italian, but it was used in Mozart's day and cannot therefore be regarded as incorrect. Kostaki mou ( talk) 13:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
The first edition (Artaria, 1784) as well as urtext editions Barenreiter (1986) et Peters (1938) do not mention "rondo" anywhere.
Additionally, the musical form of the third movement is not a rondo. It is a compound ternary form with a bridge (C) between each of the ternary forms and a coda (F):
[A B A'] C [D E D'] C [A B A'] C' F
Note that with repeats the structure becomes:
[(A A) (B A' B A')] C C [(D D) (E D' E D')] C C [(A A) (B A' B A')] C' C' F
Therefore, nothing justifies the name rondo.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.59.42.236 ( talk) 21:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)