This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Phylogenetics article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Daily page views
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 28 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Phylogenetics
The picture on this article is technically a cladogram, not a phylogeny. This is because it does not incorporate environmental or temporal information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.217.236.33 ( talk) 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
There is an understood temporal component in all cladograms. The deeper branches are older. The term phylogeny is appropriate here as well as cladogram.
I should like to attract attention to the colouring of the diagram: what does the connection in red between the birds (where is actually turns orange: why is the overlay area between blue and yellow not green????????) and the mammalians stand for? There is no common ancestor to these branches who was warm blooded and we have an independant evolution of this feature: so what does this connection try to suggest here? Or does it simply attempt to confuse and render incomprehensible what is essentially straightforward??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.132.203.205 ( talk) 13:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The article's statement that "The most commonly used methods to infer phylogenies include cladistics, phenetics, maximum likelihood, and MCMC-based Bayesian inference." is a bit puzzling. (This is part of what I think is a general muddle over the term "cladistics"). The declaration that one method for inferring phylogenies is "phenetics" is strange, since phenetics as a philosophy of classification is positively uninterested in phylogenies and interprets its branching diagrams as classifications but not as phylogenies. What is going on here is to label parsimony methods "cladistics" and distance matrix methods "phenetics". In my view these latter two terms are best reserved as labels for approaches to classification, not methods for inferring phylogenies. The two get middled together all the time. (But keep in mind that in systematics this view of mine is considered by most people as dubious and marginal -- when it comes to this view I'm regarded as a fringe crackpot.) Felsenst
would sympathtic editors consider a positive vote here? [1] Slrubenstein | Talk 15:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(Moved to talk:clade). Richard001 06:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Would a discussion of "lumping" and "splitting"—what the terms mean, and how authorities come to such decisions—be warranted here? MeegsC | Talk 15:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Ernst Mayr would be rolling in his grave. I think this should be reverted. Cladistics is the Hennig school, and their view of how things go in phylogeny is far from universally shared. One of the problems is that the different authors give their own meanings to the words, and then assume that those meanings are universal. Phylogeny comes from the 18th century, before cladistics was thought of. All we should do is cover the controversy, without picking winners and losers. EdJohnston 19:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Phylogenetic Systematics and Cladistics are two different approaches to interpretations of evolutionary relationships. They should not be used synonymously as phylogentic systematics takes in consideration of ALL homologous characters, whereas cladistics considers specifically chosen derived characters to reach generalizations of evolutionary relationships. This process results in a development of a phylogenetic chart showing relationships through time with hypothesized ancestor-descendant links (phylogenetic systematics) or a cladogram with no ancestor-descendant links hypothesis AND without a time dimension. Timothy Michael Earwood 04:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poethical ( talk • contribs)
Williamson believes that larvae and embryos represent adults in other taxa that have been transferred by hybridization (the larval transfer theory)
Who is Williamson, why is he important, why should we care about his ideas, what exactly are his ideas anyway and what does hybridization or larval transfer mean in this context? Some of the readers are not as familiar in the field of developmental biology as you are, please try to keep that in mind. Shinobu 12:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea why this passage about Williamson is included. At best, it is a wild conjecture that is far outside of mainstream evolutionary biology! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.188.92 ( talk) 21:17, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
The "Williamson" mentioned is this guy. Saying his views are a wild conjecture is a great understatement -- they are totally off the wall. See the "Controversy" section of that Wikipedia page. Felsenst ( talk) 21:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
The article currently says:
Cladistics provides a simplified method of understanding phylogenetic trees. .... The most commonly used methods to infer phylogenies include parsimony, maximum likelihood, and MCMC-based Bayesian inference. Distance-based methods construct trees based on overall similarity which is often assumed to approximate phylogenetic relationships.
So is "cladistics" a method of "understanding" trees, or constructing them? Are parsimony, ML, and Bayesian methods examples of "cladistics"? Or not? Or do they reconstruct the trees which are then "understood" by cladistics? Also, why are distance methods "assumed to approximate phylogenetic relationships" but likelihood and Bayesian methods, which are based on the same models, not making that assumption? (Don't mind me, I am just harassing folks in this field because I think the standard descriptions of what is going on are totally muddled, and this article reflects that). Felsenst ( talk) 20:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The intro contains the sentence "The problem posed by phylogenetics is that genetic data are only available for the present", and cites a 1967 journal, but this is no longer true. DNA sequencing has been performed on ancient organisms, including mammoths frozen in permafrost, and insects embedded in amber. This is not my field and I don't have readily available references, so please accept this request for an update. -- Blainster ( talk) 16:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
When reading the page, I get confused by the constant inflictions of references to cladism. Why is the same picture included in this article as in the article about cladistics? Envall has recently shown in Biol J Linn Soc that cladistics actually denies both facts and science, why should it be allowed to confuse itself with the science of phylogenetics? Can't it stick to its own article (where it, by the way, refuses to include criticism of it). Is cladism allowed to infect all articles discussing evolution? Consist ( talk) 23:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Am I allowed to change this article without being deleted or blocked? Consist (presently at 83.254.20.53 ( talk) 23:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC))
How come an explanation of the concept phylogenetics in the beginning contains the expression "phylogentic systematics or cladism", thus equalizing the two? What on earth does a science has to do with an extremism of that science? Phylogenetics does not require acknowledgement of the inconsistent, self-contradictory, empirically erroneous and ambiguous concept "clades". This acknowledgement is actually a bold confusion of process and pattern, that is, only an extremism kind of phylogenetics. Is islam equal to alQuiada? Consist, presently at 83.254.20.122 ( talk) 00:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In the beginning of this article about phylogenetics, cladists have sneaked in a sentence synonymizing phylogentics with cladism, which opens for a continuous confusion of these concepts. As explained above, this insneaked synonymonity is just "very nearly". It is just as "very nearly" as apples are "very nearly" synonymous to fruits. This closeness is, indeed, very close. Apples are indeed fruits, but..., are they synonymous to fruits? If they are, what about pears? Aren't they fruits? Cladists "solve" this conceptual problem by "denying" pears. What does this mean? Does it mean that pears aren't fruits, or that they aren't acceptable fruits? Whatever it means, they claim that "evolutionary biologists use the methods and the tools that are useful to laying the evolutionary puzzle, and that in this category [?] does cladism fit" (see Thomas e on the Swedish page on phylogenetics). What category? The evolutionary puzzle is layed by many persons, some of them cladists and some of them non-cladists. How does Thomas e (and the rest of the cladists) mean that non-cladists should react to Thomas e's (and the rest of the cladists') "denial" of us? Shall we just accept it or "deny" cladists? The answer is that facts deny cladism. Cladism is actually an insensible simplification just like nazism or any other -ism is. We don't have to "acknowledge" or "deny" any of them (just as we don't have to choose side in Bush's battle against terrorism), but can instead demonstrate that cladism is inconsistent (thus self-contradictory), and empirically wrong. We don't have to answer their questions, because they simply are insensible. We can continue explaining that their approach is an -ism, that is, one of all possible subjective approaches to reality. We can continue explaining that science differs from all these approaches by being objective. We can admit that objectivity does not allow a single, true classification of reality, but at the same time emphasize the fact that only it agrees with facts. Utopia isn't possible, but science is at least correct. It means that cladists can make phylogentics synonymous to cladistics to the extent that they can make pattern synonymous to process, that is, not. Consist, presently at 83.254.20.59 ( talk) 00:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Expert opinions on the notability of this topic would be appreciated. Tim Vickers ( talk) 16:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In the section "Taxon sampling and phylogenetic signal" there's a number given as "~16,00". Is this a typo, and what would be the sensible number? Expert needed, please! -- Stfg ( talk) 21:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Phylogeny in psychoanalysis is the study of the whole family or species of an organism in order to better understand the pre-history of it [5], because it might have an unconscious influence on a patient,according to Sigmund Freud. After the possibilities of ontogeny, the development of the whole organism viewed from the light of occurrences during the life [6], have been exhausted phylogeny might shed more light on the pre-history of an organism.
The term phylogenetics derives from the Greek terms phyle (φυλή) and phylon (φῦλον), denoting “tribe” and “race”; [7] and the term genetikos (γενετικός), denoting “relative to birth”, from genesis (γένεσις) “origin” and “birth” [8]. Phylogenetics /faɪloʊdʒɪˈnɛtɪks/ is the study of evolutionary relatedness among groups of organisms (e.g. species, populations), In biology this is discovered through molecular sequencing data and morphological data matrices, while in Psychoanalysis this is discovered by analysis of the memories of a patient and the relatives.
That looks fine. I would just go ahead and add it; we generally encourage people to make bold improvements to pages. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 20:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Are phylogenetics and phylogeny synonymous terms? I have entered the term phylogeny, and have been redirected to phylogenetics, but in the article there is no reference to phylogeny. It all came as I was reading this page http://www.mobot.org/mobot/research/apweb/welcome.html, that uses the term Phylogeny.
Comparison with other Wikipedias:
Catalan W. distinguishes the terms "filogènesi" that is a process, and "filogènia", that is a study or science.
Spanish W. uses the term "filogenia".
French W. uses the term "phylogènie".
Italian W. states that "filogenesi", "filogenetica", "filogenia" are equivalent terms.
I tend to think that "phylogenetics" and "phylogeny" are synonymous, if it is so, it would be useful to include this in the article.-- Auró ( talk) 19:04, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This article overlapped a lot with Cladistics and Clade, and it still overlaps with Cladogram and probably several others. Having edited Clade and Cladogram, I've tried to make this article more independent of them and more focused on its own topic.
Most sorely missing are more history – I need to track down the reference (a 1998 book by Pascal Tassy) to "phylopessimism", the last stage before phylogenetics became a science – and more references. I can supply all that, but not soon.
There is still too much overlap with several other articles.
David Marjanović ( talk) 22:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Taxonomy is classification and phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification, so phylogenetics is logically and necessarily a subset of taxonomy. The introduction says otherwise and the quote used doesn't even back it up--it says something else nonsensical. Where in the biological literature does it ever say phylogenetics is distinct from taxonomy?
Whether we take the position that taxonoomy is a subset of systematics or vice-versa, phylogenetics would not be distinct from either. Some even equate phylogenetics with systematics, which would mean phylogenetics is a subset of taxonomy or includes it. No matter how you look at it phylogenetics is certainly not distinct from taxonomy.
I have made the correction twice but it was reverted each time.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 15:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Taxonomy is classification. See Taxonomy (biology)#Definition for sourced alternative definitions. Some support this statement, some do not. In particular, for those who define taxonomy as including description, identification and nomenclature it's clearly not the same as classification. Alpha taxonomy is largely independent of classification.
phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification. Says who? Many different classifications can be derived from the same phylogenetic tree. They can be based on the traditional rank-based codes, nowadays generally using strictly monophyletic taxa as in the APG systems, but some also using paraphyletic taxa as in Stace's system for the British flora. They can alternatively be based on the Phylocode. So how can phylogenetics and phylogenetic classification be the same thing? Maybe some sources say they are, but others clearly describe a two-step process: first obtain phylogenetic hypotheses (e.g. trees) and then decide on a classification.
You're making artificial and gratuitous distinctions. A phylogeny is a classification, whether or not it is contradicted by another analysis. The 2-step process you describe is the process of phylogenetic classification. You could nitpick and say there's the phylogeny and there's the classification, but if you do, phylogenetics still necessarily includes both.
" 'Phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification' Says who?" Professional taxonomists, that's who. I quote from Cladistics, 1st ed., p. 3:
"In biology, cladistics is a method of systematics (Patterson, 1980), most coherently formulated by Hennig (1950, 1966), which is used to reconstruct geneologies of organisms and to construct classifications. However, it is also a general approach to classification which can be used for comparative information, having been independently discovered in linguistics..." This clearly says classification is part and parcel of phylogenetics. You'll never find any reference that says the 2 are distinct.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 17:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help), and possibly others with the same first word in the title."phylogenetics is part and parcel of classification," also proves my point that phylogenetics and taxonomy are not distinct. We don't say that oranges are distinct from fruits nor vice versa. Method A is a necessary part of the classification. You can't have a phylogenetic taxonomy without a phylogeny, nor can you have a phylogeny without a phylogenetic taxonomy. Like I say, you are nitpicking and making arbitrary, artificial, and gratuitous distinctions, and disagreeing with professional taxonomists.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 14:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
To say a phylogeny is not a classification is irrational and you'll have to provide a reference which reflects that view and that has some kind of currency instead of just a small minority view.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 15:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I understand that Haeckel's tree is likely the first, out side of Darwin's notebook, meant to imply continuity in the lineage of life but I feel that it is somewhat dishonest to label it the "1st" evolutionary tree. This is primarily because it doesn't include any paleontological data and is not the first to show continuous branching. As outlined [ on this page], Haeckel's diagram is preceded by both that of Lamarck, Hitchcock, and Bronn, (of which the latter two paired their trees to paleontological scales). Additional information about each can be found in this essay 1, by JD Archibald. I would contend that as both Darwin and Haeckel failed to provide a mechanism by which heredity functioned, we should consider one of the these earlier "trees" as being "the first". Seeing as Hitchcock was vehemently anti-evolution and Bronn explicitly excluded a mechanism for the succession of forms that he documented, I recommend that Bronn replace Haeckel in this sense. In addition, Bronn was correspondent with Darwin and the translator of OOSMNSPFRSL into German 2. Any thoughts or objections to my proposed change? StereoTypo ( talk) 04:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Domain of crocodile 216.247.81.103 ( talk) 22:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
What's with specie's? It should be species' for both singular and plural possessives, as species is both the singular and the plural. Aboctok ( talk) 03:38, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Certain sections of the page, particularly "Phylogenetic screens" and "Phylogenetic tree shapes", seem to have been copied from this paper. I wasn't sure if reporting that section would affect the entire article so I wanted to raise that concern here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reputationbiohazard ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Phylogenetics article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Daily page views
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 28 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Phylogenetics
The picture on this article is technically a cladogram, not a phylogeny. This is because it does not incorporate environmental or temporal information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.217.236.33 ( talk) 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
There is an understood temporal component in all cladograms. The deeper branches are older. The term phylogeny is appropriate here as well as cladogram.
I should like to attract attention to the colouring of the diagram: what does the connection in red between the birds (where is actually turns orange: why is the overlay area between blue and yellow not green????????) and the mammalians stand for? There is no common ancestor to these branches who was warm blooded and we have an independant evolution of this feature: so what does this connection try to suggest here? Or does it simply attempt to confuse and render incomprehensible what is essentially straightforward??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.132.203.205 ( talk) 13:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The article's statement that "The most commonly used methods to infer phylogenies include cladistics, phenetics, maximum likelihood, and MCMC-based Bayesian inference." is a bit puzzling. (This is part of what I think is a general muddle over the term "cladistics"). The declaration that one method for inferring phylogenies is "phenetics" is strange, since phenetics as a philosophy of classification is positively uninterested in phylogenies and interprets its branching diagrams as classifications but not as phylogenies. What is going on here is to label parsimony methods "cladistics" and distance matrix methods "phenetics". In my view these latter two terms are best reserved as labels for approaches to classification, not methods for inferring phylogenies. The two get middled together all the time. (But keep in mind that in systematics this view of mine is considered by most people as dubious and marginal -- when it comes to this view I'm regarded as a fringe crackpot.) Felsenst
would sympathtic editors consider a positive vote here? [1] Slrubenstein | Talk 15:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(Moved to talk:clade). Richard001 06:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Would a discussion of "lumping" and "splitting"—what the terms mean, and how authorities come to such decisions—be warranted here? MeegsC | Talk 15:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Ernst Mayr would be rolling in his grave. I think this should be reverted. Cladistics is the Hennig school, and their view of how things go in phylogeny is far from universally shared. One of the problems is that the different authors give their own meanings to the words, and then assume that those meanings are universal. Phylogeny comes from the 18th century, before cladistics was thought of. All we should do is cover the controversy, without picking winners and losers. EdJohnston 19:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Phylogenetic Systematics and Cladistics are two different approaches to interpretations of evolutionary relationships. They should not be used synonymously as phylogentic systematics takes in consideration of ALL homologous characters, whereas cladistics considers specifically chosen derived characters to reach generalizations of evolutionary relationships. This process results in a development of a phylogenetic chart showing relationships through time with hypothesized ancestor-descendant links (phylogenetic systematics) or a cladogram with no ancestor-descendant links hypothesis AND without a time dimension. Timothy Michael Earwood 04:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poethical ( talk • contribs)
Williamson believes that larvae and embryos represent adults in other taxa that have been transferred by hybridization (the larval transfer theory)
Who is Williamson, why is he important, why should we care about his ideas, what exactly are his ideas anyway and what does hybridization or larval transfer mean in this context? Some of the readers are not as familiar in the field of developmental biology as you are, please try to keep that in mind. Shinobu 12:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea why this passage about Williamson is included. At best, it is a wild conjecture that is far outside of mainstream evolutionary biology! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.188.92 ( talk) 21:17, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
The "Williamson" mentioned is this guy. Saying his views are a wild conjecture is a great understatement -- they are totally off the wall. See the "Controversy" section of that Wikipedia page. Felsenst ( talk) 21:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
The article currently says:
Cladistics provides a simplified method of understanding phylogenetic trees. .... The most commonly used methods to infer phylogenies include parsimony, maximum likelihood, and MCMC-based Bayesian inference. Distance-based methods construct trees based on overall similarity which is often assumed to approximate phylogenetic relationships.
So is "cladistics" a method of "understanding" trees, or constructing them? Are parsimony, ML, and Bayesian methods examples of "cladistics"? Or not? Or do they reconstruct the trees which are then "understood" by cladistics? Also, why are distance methods "assumed to approximate phylogenetic relationships" but likelihood and Bayesian methods, which are based on the same models, not making that assumption? (Don't mind me, I am just harassing folks in this field because I think the standard descriptions of what is going on are totally muddled, and this article reflects that). Felsenst ( talk) 20:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The intro contains the sentence "The problem posed by phylogenetics is that genetic data are only available for the present", and cites a 1967 journal, but this is no longer true. DNA sequencing has been performed on ancient organisms, including mammoths frozen in permafrost, and insects embedded in amber. This is not my field and I don't have readily available references, so please accept this request for an update. -- Blainster ( talk) 16:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
When reading the page, I get confused by the constant inflictions of references to cladism. Why is the same picture included in this article as in the article about cladistics? Envall has recently shown in Biol J Linn Soc that cladistics actually denies both facts and science, why should it be allowed to confuse itself with the science of phylogenetics? Can't it stick to its own article (where it, by the way, refuses to include criticism of it). Is cladism allowed to infect all articles discussing evolution? Consist ( talk) 23:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Am I allowed to change this article without being deleted or blocked? Consist (presently at 83.254.20.53 ( talk) 23:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC))
How come an explanation of the concept phylogenetics in the beginning contains the expression "phylogentic systematics or cladism", thus equalizing the two? What on earth does a science has to do with an extremism of that science? Phylogenetics does not require acknowledgement of the inconsistent, self-contradictory, empirically erroneous and ambiguous concept "clades". This acknowledgement is actually a bold confusion of process and pattern, that is, only an extremism kind of phylogenetics. Is islam equal to alQuiada? Consist, presently at 83.254.20.122 ( talk) 00:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
In the beginning of this article about phylogenetics, cladists have sneaked in a sentence synonymizing phylogentics with cladism, which opens for a continuous confusion of these concepts. As explained above, this insneaked synonymonity is just "very nearly". It is just as "very nearly" as apples are "very nearly" synonymous to fruits. This closeness is, indeed, very close. Apples are indeed fruits, but..., are they synonymous to fruits? If they are, what about pears? Aren't they fruits? Cladists "solve" this conceptual problem by "denying" pears. What does this mean? Does it mean that pears aren't fruits, or that they aren't acceptable fruits? Whatever it means, they claim that "evolutionary biologists use the methods and the tools that are useful to laying the evolutionary puzzle, and that in this category [?] does cladism fit" (see Thomas e on the Swedish page on phylogenetics). What category? The evolutionary puzzle is layed by many persons, some of them cladists and some of them non-cladists. How does Thomas e (and the rest of the cladists) mean that non-cladists should react to Thomas e's (and the rest of the cladists') "denial" of us? Shall we just accept it or "deny" cladists? The answer is that facts deny cladism. Cladism is actually an insensible simplification just like nazism or any other -ism is. We don't have to "acknowledge" or "deny" any of them (just as we don't have to choose side in Bush's battle against terrorism), but can instead demonstrate that cladism is inconsistent (thus self-contradictory), and empirically wrong. We don't have to answer their questions, because they simply are insensible. We can continue explaining that their approach is an -ism, that is, one of all possible subjective approaches to reality. We can continue explaining that science differs from all these approaches by being objective. We can admit that objectivity does not allow a single, true classification of reality, but at the same time emphasize the fact that only it agrees with facts. Utopia isn't possible, but science is at least correct. It means that cladists can make phylogentics synonymous to cladistics to the extent that they can make pattern synonymous to process, that is, not. Consist, presently at 83.254.20.59 ( talk) 00:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Expert opinions on the notability of this topic would be appreciated. Tim Vickers ( talk) 16:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
In the section "Taxon sampling and phylogenetic signal" there's a number given as "~16,00". Is this a typo, and what would be the sensible number? Expert needed, please! -- Stfg ( talk) 21:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Phylogeny in psychoanalysis is the study of the whole family or species of an organism in order to better understand the pre-history of it [5], because it might have an unconscious influence on a patient,according to Sigmund Freud. After the possibilities of ontogeny, the development of the whole organism viewed from the light of occurrences during the life [6], have been exhausted phylogeny might shed more light on the pre-history of an organism.
The term phylogenetics derives from the Greek terms phyle (φυλή) and phylon (φῦλον), denoting “tribe” and “race”; [7] and the term genetikos (γενετικός), denoting “relative to birth”, from genesis (γένεσις) “origin” and “birth” [8]. Phylogenetics /faɪloʊdʒɪˈnɛtɪks/ is the study of evolutionary relatedness among groups of organisms (e.g. species, populations), In biology this is discovered through molecular sequencing data and morphological data matrices, while in Psychoanalysis this is discovered by analysis of the memories of a patient and the relatives.
That looks fine. I would just go ahead and add it; we generally encourage people to make bold improvements to pages. ItsZippy ( talk • contributions) 20:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Are phylogenetics and phylogeny synonymous terms? I have entered the term phylogeny, and have been redirected to phylogenetics, but in the article there is no reference to phylogeny. It all came as I was reading this page http://www.mobot.org/mobot/research/apweb/welcome.html, that uses the term Phylogeny.
Comparison with other Wikipedias:
Catalan W. distinguishes the terms "filogènesi" that is a process, and "filogènia", that is a study or science.
Spanish W. uses the term "filogenia".
French W. uses the term "phylogènie".
Italian W. states that "filogenesi", "filogenetica", "filogenia" are equivalent terms.
I tend to think that "phylogenetics" and "phylogeny" are synonymous, if it is so, it would be useful to include this in the article.-- Auró ( talk) 19:04, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This article overlapped a lot with Cladistics and Clade, and it still overlaps with Cladogram and probably several others. Having edited Clade and Cladogram, I've tried to make this article more independent of them and more focused on its own topic.
Most sorely missing are more history – I need to track down the reference (a 1998 book by Pascal Tassy) to "phylopessimism", the last stage before phylogenetics became a science – and more references. I can supply all that, but not soon.
There is still too much overlap with several other articles.
David Marjanović ( talk) 22:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Taxonomy is classification and phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification, so phylogenetics is logically and necessarily a subset of taxonomy. The introduction says otherwise and the quote used doesn't even back it up--it says something else nonsensical. Where in the biological literature does it ever say phylogenetics is distinct from taxonomy?
Whether we take the position that taxonoomy is a subset of systematics or vice-versa, phylogenetics would not be distinct from either. Some even equate phylogenetics with systematics, which would mean phylogenetics is a subset of taxonomy or includes it. No matter how you look at it phylogenetics is certainly not distinct from taxonomy.
I have made the correction twice but it was reverted each time.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 15:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Taxonomy is classification. See Taxonomy (biology)#Definition for sourced alternative definitions. Some support this statement, some do not. In particular, for those who define taxonomy as including description, identification and nomenclature it's clearly not the same as classification. Alpha taxonomy is largely independent of classification.
phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification. Says who? Many different classifications can be derived from the same phylogenetic tree. They can be based on the traditional rank-based codes, nowadays generally using strictly monophyletic taxa as in the APG systems, but some also using paraphyletic taxa as in Stace's system for the British flora. They can alternatively be based on the Phylocode. So how can phylogenetics and phylogenetic classification be the same thing? Maybe some sources say they are, but others clearly describe a two-step process: first obtain phylogenetic hypotheses (e.g. trees) and then decide on a classification.
You're making artificial and gratuitous distinctions. A phylogeny is a classification, whether or not it is contradicted by another analysis. The 2-step process you describe is the process of phylogenetic classification. You could nitpick and say there's the phylogeny and there's the classification, but if you do, phylogenetics still necessarily includes both.
" 'Phylogenetics is phylogenetic classification' Says who?" Professional taxonomists, that's who. I quote from Cladistics, 1st ed., p. 3:
"In biology, cladistics is a method of systematics (Patterson, 1980), most coherently formulated by Hennig (1950, 1966), which is used to reconstruct geneologies of organisms and to construct classifications. However, it is also a general approach to classification which can be used for comparative information, having been independently discovered in linguistics..." This clearly says classification is part and parcel of phylogenetics. You'll never find any reference that says the 2 are distinct.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 17:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help), and possibly others with the same first word in the title."phylogenetics is part and parcel of classification," also proves my point that phylogenetics and taxonomy are not distinct. We don't say that oranges are distinct from fruits nor vice versa. Method A is a necessary part of the classification. You can't have a phylogenetic taxonomy without a phylogeny, nor can you have a phylogeny without a phylogenetic taxonomy. Like I say, you are nitpicking and making arbitrary, artificial, and gratuitous distinctions, and disagreeing with professional taxonomists.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 14:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
To say a phylogeny is not a classification is irrational and you'll have to provide a reference which reflects that view and that has some kind of currency instead of just a small minority view.-- Trouveur de faits ( talk) 15:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I understand that Haeckel's tree is likely the first, out side of Darwin's notebook, meant to imply continuity in the lineage of life but I feel that it is somewhat dishonest to label it the "1st" evolutionary tree. This is primarily because it doesn't include any paleontological data and is not the first to show continuous branching. As outlined [ on this page], Haeckel's diagram is preceded by both that of Lamarck, Hitchcock, and Bronn, (of which the latter two paired their trees to paleontological scales). Additional information about each can be found in this essay 1, by JD Archibald. I would contend that as both Darwin and Haeckel failed to provide a mechanism by which heredity functioned, we should consider one of the these earlier "trees" as being "the first". Seeing as Hitchcock was vehemently anti-evolution and Bronn explicitly excluded a mechanism for the succession of forms that he documented, I recommend that Bronn replace Haeckel in this sense. In addition, Bronn was correspondent with Darwin and the translator of OOSMNSPFRSL into German 2. Any thoughts or objections to my proposed change? StereoTypo ( talk) 04:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Domain of crocodile 216.247.81.103 ( talk) 22:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
What's with specie's? It should be species' for both singular and plural possessives, as species is both the singular and the plural. Aboctok ( talk) 03:38, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Certain sections of the page, particularly "Phylogenetic screens" and "Phylogenetic tree shapes", seem to have been copied from this paper. I wasn't sure if reporting that section would affect the entire article so I wanted to raise that concern here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reputationbiohazard ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)