![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Whats the point of creating this chart if you can't display the characters ? Just to see hex column or rows? Even Firefox cannot show the hex 02EA~1D2B, 1D66~1DBF (except very few) ! Until most browsers supports or capable of display all those characters, a graphical representation is necessary, through picture/graphic file(s). Thanks. ~ Tarikash 00:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC).
The criticism related to "semantic phonemes" added by User:Indexheavy appears to be based on a number of misunderstandings, in particular surrounding the differences between glyphs, characters and referents (signifiés, viz. phonemes etc.) of characters. The topic it appears to address is the canonical names of some "IPA Extensions" characters. Since the Unicode range itself is called "IPA extensions", it somehow stands to reason that the character called "LATIN LETTER BILABIAL CLICK" is really the IPA symbol for a bilabial click, since there is really no Latin letter for a bilabial click. Yes, the character names are often not very happy choices. This points to a lack of professionality or consistence sadly often observed in the Unicode standard, however, the character names are merely convention anyway, and it is difficult to follow why they should be analysed depending on whether they describe a glyph shape or not, precisely because they are just a rather clumsily chosen convention. I suggest it is enough to just list the names and be done. If there is notable criticism related to the naming of the IPA characters, we should by all means cite it, but as it was, this discussion of "Semantic Phonemes" was imply "original research". dab (𒁳) 11:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but I repeat that your discussion is confused. First things first: what are your sources? I am prepared to read you charitably, but do you have any specific source for your "often cited difference between glyphs and semantic characters"? I do understand your use of " semantic", but it is itself confused and idiosyncratic: whence do you take your term "semantic character"? Proper terminology is simply character ( graphemes) vs. glyph. "Capital Letter A" denotes a character just as much as "r with tail" or "IPA symbol for bilabial click" or "Small Capital Lettter R": these do not denote glyphs. A glyph is a specific graphical realisation of a character. I am afraid that you are yourself still rather confused on these points, which obviously doesn't help you in making the points you want. Also, this whole discussion would belong on character (computing), it is not really pertinent to Unicode Phonetic Symbols in particular. The problem UCS is facing is always: how do we delimit a single grapheme? There is no simple solution, since graphemes tend to blend into one another. Thus, any encoding standard will have to draw arbitrary lines. If you like, it is arbitrary to give two codepoints to Greek Α and Cyrillic А: The Cyrillic alphabet is "really" just the Greek alphabet with a few extra letter for Slavic phonemes. However, they have evolved apart far enough that there could be no question of treating them as separate scripts (case in point, Η vs. Н). But, the Coptic alphabet is an example where UCS at first opted to consider it an extension of the Greek alphabet, and later (4.1) changed its mind about it (which results in another hair-raising instance of a script's codepoints spread all over the BMP). These are the examples you are looking for. Discussing this with IPA is confusing. Strictly speaking, IPA a is not the same character as Latin a, but it would have been absurd to allocate a separate codepoint (not more absurd than allocating codepoints for Latin numerals, though; I wouldn't put it beyond the Unicode consortium to come up with "IPA LETTER OPEN FRONT UNROUNDED VOWEL" which will simply map to a glyphs). These are -- often difficult -- judgement calls, and the consortium gets it right sometimes, and not quite right at other times. We could discuss this at character (computing), character encoding, Universal Character Set, Unicode Consortium or similar, but I really see no reason to detail it here. dab (𒁳) 09:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replied on your talkpage. dab (𒁳) 08:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The article page says this section needs the attention of an expert. It seems such an expert has not been found yet. Perhaps the message should be removed, as it discourages people from improving the section.
Until the expert saviour comes, the least that should be done is rewriting the section as an encyclopaedic coverage of a debate - yes, with sources referring to this debate, otherwise it is original research, albeit based on the public Unicode NamesList - and not as the piece of blunt propaganda it is now.
If this cannot be done the section should be removed - not because it's wrong and/or confused, but simply because Wikipedia, which is intended for encyclopaedic coverage of topics and not for original research and propaganda, is not the place for it.
188.169.229.30 ( talk) 03:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Big text
Could a table with diacritics/combining characters be added as well? I am currently looking to type the non-syllabic diacritic (which looks like a half-circle below the letter) but I can't find it. CodeCat ( talk) 16:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I cannot say that I have read this section particularly thoroughly nor that I understand its meaning completely, but it seems to be mainly a criticism of Unicode's naming conventions. If this is the case, I do not believe that it belongs here. Wikipedia is meant to be encyclopaedic and not a forum for debate. Whether or not Unicode chose code points or names poorly is not the issue; it is whether this section is truly an objective documentation of a legitimate issue.
This section, in my opinion, needs to be reworked or else removed. It should refrain from complaining about the state of Unicode and should instead simply present the fact that Unicode assigned names and code points according to shapes from the IPA and other phonetic alphabets instead of the sounds they represent. I would do this, except that I am unsure how to proceed.
Please correct me if I am mistaken about the meaning of this section or the author's intent.
hwalter42 ( talk) 00:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Whats the point of creating this chart if you can't display the characters ? Just to see hex column or rows? Even Firefox cannot show the hex 02EA~1D2B, 1D66~1DBF (except very few) ! Until most browsers supports or capable of display all those characters, a graphical representation is necessary, through picture/graphic file(s). Thanks. ~ Tarikash 00:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC).
The criticism related to "semantic phonemes" added by User:Indexheavy appears to be based on a number of misunderstandings, in particular surrounding the differences between glyphs, characters and referents (signifiés, viz. phonemes etc.) of characters. The topic it appears to address is the canonical names of some "IPA Extensions" characters. Since the Unicode range itself is called "IPA extensions", it somehow stands to reason that the character called "LATIN LETTER BILABIAL CLICK" is really the IPA symbol for a bilabial click, since there is really no Latin letter for a bilabial click. Yes, the character names are often not very happy choices. This points to a lack of professionality or consistence sadly often observed in the Unicode standard, however, the character names are merely convention anyway, and it is difficult to follow why they should be analysed depending on whether they describe a glyph shape or not, precisely because they are just a rather clumsily chosen convention. I suggest it is enough to just list the names and be done. If there is notable criticism related to the naming of the IPA characters, we should by all means cite it, but as it was, this discussion of "Semantic Phonemes" was imply "original research". dab (𒁳) 11:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but I repeat that your discussion is confused. First things first: what are your sources? I am prepared to read you charitably, but do you have any specific source for your "often cited difference between glyphs and semantic characters"? I do understand your use of " semantic", but it is itself confused and idiosyncratic: whence do you take your term "semantic character"? Proper terminology is simply character ( graphemes) vs. glyph. "Capital Letter A" denotes a character just as much as "r with tail" or "IPA symbol for bilabial click" or "Small Capital Lettter R": these do not denote glyphs. A glyph is a specific graphical realisation of a character. I am afraid that you are yourself still rather confused on these points, which obviously doesn't help you in making the points you want. Also, this whole discussion would belong on character (computing), it is not really pertinent to Unicode Phonetic Symbols in particular. The problem UCS is facing is always: how do we delimit a single grapheme? There is no simple solution, since graphemes tend to blend into one another. Thus, any encoding standard will have to draw arbitrary lines. If you like, it is arbitrary to give two codepoints to Greek Α and Cyrillic А: The Cyrillic alphabet is "really" just the Greek alphabet with a few extra letter for Slavic phonemes. However, they have evolved apart far enough that there could be no question of treating them as separate scripts (case in point, Η vs. Н). But, the Coptic alphabet is an example where UCS at first opted to consider it an extension of the Greek alphabet, and later (4.1) changed its mind about it (which results in another hair-raising instance of a script's codepoints spread all over the BMP). These are the examples you are looking for. Discussing this with IPA is confusing. Strictly speaking, IPA a is not the same character as Latin a, but it would have been absurd to allocate a separate codepoint (not more absurd than allocating codepoints for Latin numerals, though; I wouldn't put it beyond the Unicode consortium to come up with "IPA LETTER OPEN FRONT UNROUNDED VOWEL" which will simply map to a glyphs). These are -- often difficult -- judgement calls, and the consortium gets it right sometimes, and not quite right at other times. We could discuss this at character (computing), character encoding, Universal Character Set, Unicode Consortium or similar, but I really see no reason to detail it here. dab (𒁳) 09:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replied on your talkpage. dab (𒁳) 08:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The article page says this section needs the attention of an expert. It seems such an expert has not been found yet. Perhaps the message should be removed, as it discourages people from improving the section.
Until the expert saviour comes, the least that should be done is rewriting the section as an encyclopaedic coverage of a debate - yes, with sources referring to this debate, otherwise it is original research, albeit based on the public Unicode NamesList - and not as the piece of blunt propaganda it is now.
If this cannot be done the section should be removed - not because it's wrong and/or confused, but simply because Wikipedia, which is intended for encyclopaedic coverage of topics and not for original research and propaganda, is not the place for it.
188.169.229.30 ( talk) 03:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC) Big text
Could a table with diacritics/combining characters be added as well? I am currently looking to type the non-syllabic diacritic (which looks like a half-circle below the letter) but I can't find it. CodeCat ( talk) 16:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I cannot say that I have read this section particularly thoroughly nor that I understand its meaning completely, but it seems to be mainly a criticism of Unicode's naming conventions. If this is the case, I do not believe that it belongs here. Wikipedia is meant to be encyclopaedic and not a forum for debate. Whether or not Unicode chose code points or names poorly is not the issue; it is whether this section is truly an objective documentation of a legitimate issue.
This section, in my opinion, needs to be reworked or else removed. It should refrain from complaining about the state of Unicode and should instead simply present the fact that Unicode assigned names and code points according to shapes from the IPA and other phonetic alphabets instead of the sounds they represent. I would do this, except that I am unsure how to proceed.
Please correct me if I am mistaken about the meaning of this section or the author's intent.
hwalter42 ( talk) 00:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)