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Here are some online sources for papers and other information from Professor's at Rutgers University:
Note: These sites may change significantly every semester. -- 165.230.46.67 19:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Some others:
-- 70.111.218.254 22:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the cleanup tag that I originally put there in September 2006. The article is if anything worse than when I tagged it. There is a huge introductory section which repeats much of the stuff in the body of the article. Introductions aren't for long personal essays, they should be a short, pithy introduction to the subject.
Moreover it is a personal essay. There have to be citations for any substantial claim made. E.g. 'the ancient Greeks were perhaps the first to explicitly ask: Is the world (of which we are also a part) intelligible?'. That's a pretty hard one to verify. Where is it written that 'The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics.' ?
The style is also not encyclopedic. E.g.
Just two examples. Dbuckner 08:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this waffle about "human curiosity" is very patronising to any reader and in fact a mistaken, or at lesat one-sided, view of philosophy. Most people I'd imaging are looking for something more definite, that might lead them on to more specific issues and pages, or to clarify what philosophy means or how it is carried out by today's professional philosophers and of course a summary of its history. -- Lucas
A single line yes, but it sticks out. And yes, I know I left "human curiosity" (as opposed to feline curiosity) and "behooving" (what an odd word) in the article and that the rest of the article is not about curiosity, but do you know what the original word you quote from plato was? It weren't curiosity.
The article also should not be so Greek, there is also very old Eastern philosophy and religious and Jewish philosophy. I would also not go along with the trite old thing about philosophy as a luxury, I'd say it came with the first necessity not with the first yawn.
The "superfluous text" is a little serious I know but it does orientate someone into the topic as it is practiced today, since many readers might already have at least an everyday notion of the word's meaning. Which might even be probably closer to the meaning of it than "curiosity".
-- Lucas
I was only talking about the intro.
I agree it might be unconvincing when I just say its condescending without explanation. What I mean is that it the article sounds like it is addressed to a child. Most people already have an idea of philosophy and may even have a better idea of it that is given by this intro. So rather than give a misleading and clichéd description of philosophy as "human curiosity" or when humans first began to yawn, etc., better just direct them straight away to more info and details about how it is practiced today.
Your word wonder is better, but miracle or marvel or something more affecting like anxiety are also as much a part of the picture.
The Greek bias in the into was obvious, Greek is Western and anyhow there are large articles on both Western Philosophy and Greek Philosophy.
Whats this about rules of style ? I never break rules especially when they are not written in stone.
-- Lucas
...even for me, a student of philosophy. It should have:
It's absolutely appalling that this article is considered to be a core topic and it is in a state like this. An article considered core topic should in my opinion be a featured article, or at least very, very close to a one. And now it's rated B. Disgraceful. Otvaltak 00:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Content arguments aside, the structure and language of this article is rough and amateur at best. Could an English professor or two with some background in philosophy spend a few minutes re-doing the worst sections? TeamZissou 07:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Update: I cleaned up that awful intro a little, but the whole of the article reads coursely. As for length, I'm glad it's so long! Look at some core-topic entries in paper encyclopedias, and you'll find that this length is acceptable for the breadth of the topic. TeamZissou 07:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone fix the paragraphing on the descriptions of Metaphysis, Epistomology etc??
See history page. Could whoever is removing the cleanup tags discuss this on the talk page before doing so. Dbuckner 15:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Anybody sees the need and the place to add a link to digital philosophy on this page? Regards.-- Powo 15:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(Please see heading above on this topic (the introduction) to which a number of people familiar with the area have contributed.)
The introduction is still poor. The opening about etymology contains the sixth-grade 'It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.' It is nowhere mentioned that many philosophers consider the etymology misleading or unhelpful.
Then there follows a bit about the 'schism' between analytic and continental. A bit too detailed for an introduction, plus it introduces the new idea of 'western philosophy'.
Then some 'tentative definitions'. 'The study or discussion of the truths, principles and practices of knowledge, and conduct, being, and ideology'. This is ungrammatical. What is the practice of being? What is the practice of conduct? As for 'That which grasps its own era in thought', what does that mean. Similarly 'The dissolution and relief from enigmas and mysteries' is ungrammatical.
For all of the definitions, citations are needed. Dbuckner 08:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Dbuckner, I redirect you to extensive discussion on this above. But do note that most others have tried to give more than destructive comments, if you would like to give us an example of how you might word the intro, without losing much of the information that other editors have considered important, please add a section here on the talk page and see what response it might get. -- Lucas
I've taken a quick glance at the layout of the article, and it seems that some of the borders are clashing and over-lapping on the right side of the screen. It can probably be corrected with some minor paragraph clean-ups. I'll do what I can, but I won't be able to do it all.
This (27 Dec 2006) is the worst yet. I've reapplied the clean-up tags. Would anyone like to claim credit for this? Dbuckner 16:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose to work to improve this article.
1dog \dog, dag\ noun often attrib [ME, fr. OE docga] (bef. 12c) 1 a : canid; esp : a highly variable domestic mammal (Canis familiaris) closely related to the common wolf (Canis lupus) b : a male dog; also : a male usu. carnivorous mammal 2 a : a worthless person b : fellow, chap <a lazy dog> <you lucky dog> 3 a : any of various usu. simple mechanical devices for holding, gripping, or fastening that consist of a spike, bar, or hook b : andiron 4 : uncharacteristic or affected stylishness or dignity <put on the dog> 5 cap : either of the constellations Canis Major or Canis Minor 6 pl : feet 7 pl : ruin <going to the dogs> 8 : one inferior of its kind: as a : an investment not worth its price b : an undesirable piece of merchandise 9 : an unattractive person and esp. a girl or woman 10 : hot dog 1 doglike \dog-lk\ adjective (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words philo, to love or to befriend, and sophia, to be wise. It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.
The above is what I found today when I visited the page for the first time. Accordingly, since the view here expounded -- that "Philosophy comes from an ancient Greek word" -- I presumed it would not take much effort to improve it!!! -- Ludvikus 18:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
To avoid the accusation of ethnocentrism, it is important to distinguish among cultures, and their relation to the subject of philosophy. On the other hand, we are writing for the English language Wikipedia. This itself justifies beginning with Western Philosophy.
A User, above, would like the Introduction/First paragraph to give a definition, or a quite definite specification, as to what philosophy is. But this is impossible - because there are, arguably, as many as there were philosophers since Philosophy began 2,500 years ago.
* Philosophy is the proposition that there is no change (Parmenides). * Philosophy is the proposition that all is change (Heracleitus). * Etc., ...
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 04:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's an authority:
Says author, Prof. Peter A. Angeles, Professor of Philosophy, "Philosophy has as many meanings as philosophers engaging in it." Dictionary of Philosophy by Peter A. Angeles (New York: Barnes & Noble Books, 1981) ISBN 0-06-463461-2
>> Will you take offense if I remind you here that it is easier to be a critique than a producer. (Ludovicus)
Well I've tried working on this article many times before. But since you ask, I have replaced the current, slack introduction, with a very short one. I've moved the cleanup tags to an appropriate place. Dbuckner 09:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
On the article generally, it is far too long as it stands. It consists mostly of long, rambling personal essays about various bits of philosophy. The article should be short, directing the reader via links to the relevant, more detailed articles. Furthermore it is a mixture of different traditions of thought, some of which are not philosophy (in the 'academic' sense) at all. I am going to move these to a separate article. The only prose in this should be connecting threads to tie the various sub-articles together in an organised and helpful way. Dbuckner 09:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section "Eastern vs Western". It makes the demonstrably false claim that people (meaning philosophers?) in the West only become aware of other philosophical systems after WWII. What do we make of Schopenhauer, then? And all the other non-philosophical stuff like Madame Blavatsky &c. The sentence " It also became clear that these systems lay geographically east of the United State, Europe, North Africa, and eastern Asia." is banal in the extreme. The sentence that begins "And it was no coincidence that …" has no main verb. So it goes. There needs to be something about the Eastern/Western thing. But this will not do. Dbuckner 09:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The word Philosophy has a variety of meanings. Its literal meaning derives from the ancient Greek word "Φιλοσοφία" (philo-sophia), which means "love of wisdom." It can mean a system of belief, values or tenets as in Buddhist philosophy, or the Tao; a body of philosophical literature that created over the centuries by a culture or civilization, as in 'Hindu philosophy'; a personal outlook or viewpoint, as in 'my philosophy of life'; truth found in mystical experience, or even alchemy and astrology, such as the philosopher's stone.
This article, however, concerns what is sometimes called 'academic philosophy'. Philosophy, in this sense, is the discipline whose subject matter is the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action and reality, whose goal is to discover the absolutely fundamental reason of everything it investigates, and whose method is rational enquiry, or enquiry guided by the canons of rationality.
Wikipedia, and Isaac Newton, recognize(d) this categorization.
---
Which is probably going to be mine. But some things are worth fighting over ... Dbuckner 16:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The word Philosophy has a variety of meanings. Its literal meaning derives from the ancient Greek word "Φιλοσοφία" ( philo- sophia), which means "love of wisdom." It can mean a system of belief, values or tenets as in Buddhist philosophy, or the Tao; a body of philosophical literature that created over the centuries by a culture or civilization, as in 'Hindu philosophy'; a personal outlook or viewpoint, as in 'my philosophy of life'; truth found in mystical experience, or even alchemy and astrology, such as the philosopher's stone.
This article, however, concerns what is sometimes called 'academic philosophy'. Philosophy, in this sense, is the discipline whose subject matter is the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action and reality, whose goal is to discover the absolutely fundamental reason of everything it investigates, and whose method is rational enquiry, or enquiry guided by the canons of rationality. [1]
The notion of Philosophy, in the English language, may best be explained by accounting for the word, its meaning, and its history. When other European languages are considered, etymologically, it is found that the same word exists there as well, indicating a common heritage. That is not necessarily the case with other languages whose speakers are not in physical proximity to the Mediterranean Sea. The word enters our language in the Fourteenth Century. It does so by way of (in reverse chronological order) Middle English, Old French, Latin, and Greek. [2] As it turns out, both the word, and the subject behind the notion, shift, or change with time, or in historical context, as is more fully narrated below. In brief, philosphy , orginally, roughly, encompassed all that we today mean by the three words, science, knowledge, and wisdom. As the content of these subjects increased, and changed, and in more recent times, with the historical phenomena known as the Industrial Revolution, and its consequent division of labor, philosophy became a vestige of what was left and not subsumed by the specialized sciences. Says author, Prof. Peter A. Angeles, Professor of Philosophy, "Philosophy has as many meanings as philosophers engaging in it." [3]
I have removed all of this section, as it was entirely ungrammatical and illiterate. There needs to be a short and unrambling section on the standard view here, namely that the history divides broadly into the Greek and Roman period, the Medieval period, and the Modern period, then a link to the appropriate article. Dbuckner 20:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed the sections on Analytic and Continental - if the person who added these had bothered to read further, he or she would have seen there is already an overlarge section dealing with this. Also moved the quotes from Marx and Hegel to the quotes section. Dbuckner 20:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I give you Merriam-Webster's:
The last way to explain philosophy is to ask a philologist, especially an Oxford or Webster one!
Please see the discussion below (was above) on competing introductions. If you would like to change the intro then add your example in here on the talk page like the rest of us, in its own subection below (see following point 43 of this page, to where I moved the discussion so as not to lose it, A, B and C are the three alternatives. A separate subsection is also added to allow others to comment on your intro. One of those entries seems to have more support than others but only marginally, maybe your intro will get the most concensus, for me however, there is a problem with how it flows and how immediately useful it is. Remeber there is alreayd a page called Western Philosophy. -- Lucas
Ok, we all know at this stage that the intro was too long to meet with good practice. We now have two different intros which are being switched and reverted between. Let me copy them both here for comparison, each in its own subsection, with comments for each in further subsections. First the one that says philosophy is analysis and investigation. Then the one that says it is hard to define.
Philosophy is the investigation and analysis of the basic principles which are the basis of all our knowledge and activity and are normally taken for granted. As a concept and as a subject it encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use today and can be profitably used regardless of where one's answers to specific philosophical questions lie.
Metaphysics is concerned with the nature of existence in the most fundamental sense. It attempts to answer the question as to what are the most fundamental attributes that all existing things share, if any, as well as fundamental questions concerning how they relate to one another. Epistemology is concerned with the nature of knowledge and how man can know things. As such certain aspects of the functioning of man's mind is included -- his rational faculty (particularly his conceptual capacity) and how it functions as well as his emotional nature. Ethics is concerned with the nature of values and in particular how this concept applies to man and his relationship to the external world and to other men. Politics is concerned with the behavior of men toward one another in the social context. Hence the first question of politics as a philosophical subject might be: how should men deal with one another in such a social context? Thus it can be seen that politics is really a sub-category of ethics since ethical criteria must be used in order to answer its questions. Aesthetics is concerned with man's artistic creations. It also involves choice, i.e., value criteria and as such can also be viewed as a sub-category of ethics.
There are a number of broad approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the traditions of people all over the world. One notable approach is that of Western philosophy, a school of thought originated by the Greeks and developed in the West (discussed above). Eastern philosophy is considered its counterpart since subjective non-rational criteria are largely used to evaluate and resolve issues. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy and epistemology.
Philosophy as a form of analysis is really quite a narrow category to include it under. Secondly, saying it refers to all knowledge only covers (badly) epsitemology (unless you want to calll ethics knowledge). Thirdly, we already have an article on Western philosophy and this opening should be general enough to apply to Eastern, African and Western philosophy. -- Lucas
Well I thought it a good idea to put the tags just after what was currently being debated. And then perhaps shift the tags as the cleanup progresses throught he article.
I agree with Dbuckner on this "slack" comment, it should be removed or tidied up.-- Lucas
Philosophy is that which has almost as many definitions as there have been philosophers. No simple definition can do it justice. Uncontested however, is the etymology of the word.
The word philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and, -sophia, to be wise. It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.
In the contemporary English-speaking academic world it is often used implicitly to refer only to analytic philosophy and, on the other hand, in non-English speaking countries, it often refers implicitly only to continental philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy (confined largely to academia) is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy since both of these two areas talk of philosophy in general but are often only referring to that school. The easiest clue to indicate which of these philosophies is being referred to by the word philosophy is to note the language used. But modern usage of the term is much broader than this rather academic division.
Philosophy as a concept and a subject encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today.
This would be preferable if the last paragraph were placed closer to the top, and the comments about the problems of definition were left as a caveat, not a lede. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes etymology seems to thing that is least disputed. You say "Dean" mentions something below, I can't find this, anyhow the usage of the word "philosophy" at universities should be given, since it can be used to refer to philosophy generally, its history, or certain schools.
The five branches are Western and the problem we have here is that there is already a page called Western Philosophy. Do you have any idea when philosophy began to be seen in 5 branches. It seems impossible though to avoid some duplication since even the etymology is Greek and Western. But to say philosophy is such and such and merely give the Western point of view fails the article. Unless you suggest merging the two articles together.
In Eastern philosophy, in Taoism or Confusianism, for example, there is a kind of holism that does not suit these 5 branches, but there is also a tendency there to associate philosophy not with theology (as occured in the middle ages) but with the politics of how best to rule and bring happiness to the state. Of course the massive Eastern take up of Marxist thought would also be worth a mention in this overview article. As too, perhaps the influence of Indian and Chinese philosophy on the West during the Enlightenment and later. And perhaps the Persian one.
"relational matters" as you say, that is, how philosophy relates to the sciences and literature would be better covered in this article (where else could they be). We could mention for example how many sciences were originally philosophy later being called natural philosophy, then science. And how such relations are both western and eastern. As to the idea of a separate thing called metaphilosophy, I think this is some kind of joke, since most philosophers in history have a "meta" position on philosophy (eg, Aristotle philosophy only comes in times of leisure). It also means metaphysics would have to be called meta-meta-physics! I don't deny some philosophical positions have a metaphilosophical angle even if this involves re-introducing philosophy to certain sciences that were originally considered as philosophy, to for example, historical anthropology or sociology. -- Lucas
Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct. The word comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and -sophia, to be wise, and is commonly translated as "love of wisdom". In Western philosophy, the emphasis is on the rational investigation of truths and principles; in Eastern philosophy, there is greater emphasis on a more intuitive investigation. Philosophy is differentiated from science by an emphasis on first principles over empirical methods.
Academics distinguish between analytic philosophy and continental philosophy within Western philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy. In fact, modern usage of the term is much broader than this academic division would indicate. In its broadest meaning, Philosophy encompasses all of human knowledge and all that may be known, including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today; sometimes the former two are taken together and the latter two are taken as being under ethics, with logic added as the third basic category.
There are many approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the philosophical tradition being followed, but the major threads are those of Western philosophy and Eastern philosophy. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy.
A Philosophy is... introduction is appropriate for those not yet familiar with Western vs. Eastern and analytic vs. continental divisions. This intro. states the general subject matter and etymology up-front, as well as the major E-W division. JJL 15:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
To quote the first sentence of this intro, it says, "Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct." This I believe is taken from an online dictionary. That aside I think that it is far to self assured. First thing to admit about philosophy is an ignorance and that there are really no easy anwsers. In detail the term of this intro: "investigate", sounds like detective work and ignores the interpretive and political aspects; "truths and principles" already assumes there are such things; "being, knowlege, and conduct", a list like this can only be partial, how manys ideas are left out, one could equally add, eg, society, essences, metaphysics, history, justice, life etc., etc.. "Conduct" sounds very odd, the conduct of what? Do you mean ethics or morals? -- Lucas
I find it strange that you want to equate all these different items: [mathematics]], sociology, psychology, physics, Literature. Is it an intellectual conceit to equate everything? Let editors their make their own discussion about how to define the area. As mentioned above Math may be easiar to define since its practice is pretty uniform and it is taught even to 5 year olds. The earth is also older than philosophy, reems of books have not been written trying to define it though. Anyhow, if it is uniformity you like, the current consensu into begins "philosophy is" and so is with wiki guidlines on this. Nor did you resolve any of the issues raised above on this intro. Also I do not like the way it refers to Eastern philosophy as irrational. The 18th century idea of philosophy as the "rational pursuit of knowledge etc." sounds like a quote the first ever Encyclopédie.
Firstly, philosophy is not only academic. The academic use of the word is covered in the intro but at a later paragraph, the academic usage that refers usually to either analytic continental is relevant at that point. Since philosophy is not only academic, it is a choice to follow some academic style of "philosophy is". If you consider it only as academic discipline, to which academy are you refering? Western? Continental? Analytic? Since your definition may only represent one.
My issue anyhow is not with "philosophy is" but what comes next. Here I find you definition constricting for an opening line. Only later in the article should we narrow it down.
As to others opinion, the "philosophy as hard to define" seems marginally more agreed upon since no one else seems to agree with this one. However, I'd prefer we could agree on something rather than just get a random vote. With this in mind please try to respond to the criticisms as I hope I have to yours. -- Lucas
Philosophy is a subject in the Western intellectual tradition. A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquire from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy. Its two combining forms come down to us from the ancient Greek word, "Φιλοσοφία;" these are philo-, or phil-; and -sophy. The former is tracible to the transliterated Greek philos, originally meaning dear, or friendly, but translating as loving, or having an affinity for. The latter is tracible to sophia, or sophos, originally meaning wisdom, but translating as knowledge, wisdom, or science. And it is from this analysis that that the common conclusion is deduced - that philosophy is the love of wisdom.
According to the Grolier Encyclopedia (1957), "When the word philosophy was first used by the Greeks, it meant simply the search for knowledge or science. Soon after, through the influence of Socrates, Plato, and later, Aristotle, it took on the additional meaning of the search for wisdom or the best life." [4] According to the New Americanized Encyclopaedia Britannica (1904), "A specific sense of the word first meets us in Plato, who defines the philosopher as one who apprehends the essence or reality of things in opposition to the man who dwells in appearance and the shows of sense. Logic, ethics, and physics, psychology, theory of knowledge, and metaphysics are all fused together by Plato in a semi-religious synthesis. It is not till we come to Aristotle that we find a demarkation of the different philosophic disciplines corresponding, in the main, to that still current." [5]
I find this fourth option for an intro, like the editor above, as the worst of the four optins so far. I will list my reasons for this and it is not merely negative. First philosophy is not a western subject anymore than it is eastern, geography is not something it concerns itself with much, in any case there is already a page Western Philosophy and unless you suggest a merge of the two pages, this statement is off the mark and dismisses the other editors above, who only seem to agree so far on etymology and not that it is a subject of western intellectuals.
I find the second sentence, "A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquired from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy.", to be very awkwardly constructed. Previously what was there was just that etymological meaning was the least disputed and agreed by all editors as a good place to start.
References to Goliers 1957 famously inaccurate encyclopedia and to the Americanised one are poor places to go for authentic information, they seem to ignore many philosophers and give a very biased account of the subject. They say philosophy was science before Plato! This is such an odd thing to say, and is contradicted by the second encylopedia. Many of the pre-socratics weere mystics and the like not scientists, it mixes up centuries. The second encyclopedia quoted above is clearly biased (unlike history) toward Aristotle, the author perhaps being scientifically minded.
Further trying to track down an origin for philosophy as you do by refering only to Plato and Aristotle in the introduction is a mistaken view of what it means, it loses itself in an etymological discussion which was already been given and that should be brief.
The intro should be as inclusive as possible, that means not ignoring people like Wittgenstein or Russell or Hume, nor Hegel or Heidegger nor Lau-Tzu or Confucius.
Most importantly wiki is not a meta-encyclopedia, we don't just reproduce what the dusty old ones said, there are scholars and experts directly online who know more about it than these archaic compilers. -- Lucas
Lucas, clearly, substitutes his opinions, and philosophical view, in brief, his own, personal philosophical view and preferences, in place of the Masters, and the recognized authorities. The ad hominum against Golier is absurd. What Golier says is by far suprior to these a-historical diatribes and ramblings in ignorance - I mean this literally - the above clearly demonstrates ignorance of writings on philosophy,or its history in the world!!! Ludvikus 16:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
After giving 3 names, of ancient Greeks, in Greek, Zeller begins his Outline, "The term φιλόσοφοι, although it existed at the time, was not applied to them. It seems first to have acquired its technical sense in the circle of Socrates and Plato and only after that to have attained general currency." There is no better way to begin the INTRODUCTION than with the view of what φιλόσοφοι was according to the views of these great Greek Masters!!!
Ludvikus 03:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I've had to revert again. The point is to start with some brief remarks about what philosophy is NOT (philosophy of life, alchemy &c), followed by a short characterisation of what experts currently think it is, split into
On the Eastern vs Western bit, in the first place philosophy has no geography. Everyone studies it everywhere, and mostly always have done. On the academic vs non-academic bit, the article as it stands is mostly about the academic bit, with bits added in that clearly do not belong, such as Zoroastranism &c. We need to keep the two bits distinct. If there really are going to be terrible arguments about this, why not make this a disambiguation page? Dbuckner 10:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I've archived this talk page - please note that some recent comments got muddled up BEFORE I did this - this was not my doing. Dbuckner 10:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
You also haven't answered my question about your qualifications. Dbuckner 15:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The rest of your remarks are all very interesting, but practically unverifiable. Can I recommend the page WP:OR. "Original research is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or which, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."". Every phrase I used in my introduction can be sourced to 'reliable sources'. Your contributions appear to be OR. Dbuckner 16:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
OK I am reverting for the third time, which takes me to a territory I've never been before after nearly 4 years as regular editor in WP philosophy. The case here is blatant and persistent OR by a problem user. Can anyone help? Dbuckner 16:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Moving forward, I suggest the three words/concepts be in that order in the opening paragraph.
Now why don't we take advantage of our philosophically wonderous Anglo-Saxon tongue.
I recommend replacing the former for the latter.
- can you imagine Shakespeare's Hamlet saying instead, "To Exist, or not to Exis"t? Yours truly, Ludvikus 20:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's MW, Collegiate, 10th ed.:
phil- or philo- combining form [ME, fr. OF, fr. L, fr. Gk, fr. philos dear, friendly] : loving : having an affinity for <philoprogenitive> (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
-sophy noun combining form [ME -sophie, fr. OF, fr. L -sophia, fr. Gk, fr. sophia wisdom, fr. sophos] : knowledge : wisdom : science <anthroposophy> (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
metaphysics = What is? (is that an accurate translation of the questions posed by the "holy trinity" of philosophy, SPA [Socrates, Plato, & Aritotle)??? -- Ludvikus 18:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that of the two sources of the above combining forms, wisdom is easier to pin down than love. And in that light, lets consider the following translations:
I find the current introduction poorer than any of the five competing introductions (A-D given below). All five had been included here on the talk page for commentary by editors as of the 29th December. I now find that it has been suddenly archived and that one intro (D) of Ludvikus has been inserted by him the actual article and the article page locked. It was the only entry however, that seemed to have no support, in fact had a long criticism given of it.
23.1 (A) Philosophy as Analysis and Investigation
23.3 (B) Philosophy as hard to define
23.5 (C) Philosophy as the study of being/knowledge/conduct
23.7 (D) Philosophy as a Western intellectual subject, an defined by encyclopedias as X
23.9 (E) Philosophy originally - a la Edward Zeller
The current intro I would not even honour by that name, it introduces about as little as anyone who barely knows the word would know, and even lies to them. Philosophy is not only a Western intellectual tradition nor does it concern only rational inquiry. This is an 18th century European definition.
Also it cannot be said to be literally love of wisdom. Only etymologically and not literally is it that, but also etymologically it can mean the wisdom of love.
I will again include the five competing intros below here in this talk page with all the comments already garnered on them. We can then look to choosing one of them. -- Lucas
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Here are some online sources for papers and other information from Professor's at Rutgers University:
Note: These sites may change significantly every semester. -- 165.230.46.67 19:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Some others:
-- 70.111.218.254 22:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the cleanup tag that I originally put there in September 2006. The article is if anything worse than when I tagged it. There is a huge introductory section which repeats much of the stuff in the body of the article. Introductions aren't for long personal essays, they should be a short, pithy introduction to the subject.
Moreover it is a personal essay. There have to be citations for any substantial claim made. E.g. 'the ancient Greeks were perhaps the first to explicitly ask: Is the world (of which we are also a part) intelligible?'. That's a pretty hard one to verify. Where is it written that 'The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics.' ?
The style is also not encyclopedic. E.g.
Just two examples. Dbuckner 08:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I think this waffle about "human curiosity" is very patronising to any reader and in fact a mistaken, or at lesat one-sided, view of philosophy. Most people I'd imaging are looking for something more definite, that might lead them on to more specific issues and pages, or to clarify what philosophy means or how it is carried out by today's professional philosophers and of course a summary of its history. -- Lucas
A single line yes, but it sticks out. And yes, I know I left "human curiosity" (as opposed to feline curiosity) and "behooving" (what an odd word) in the article and that the rest of the article is not about curiosity, but do you know what the original word you quote from plato was? It weren't curiosity.
The article also should not be so Greek, there is also very old Eastern philosophy and religious and Jewish philosophy. I would also not go along with the trite old thing about philosophy as a luxury, I'd say it came with the first necessity not with the first yawn.
The "superfluous text" is a little serious I know but it does orientate someone into the topic as it is practiced today, since many readers might already have at least an everyday notion of the word's meaning. Which might even be probably closer to the meaning of it than "curiosity".
-- Lucas
I was only talking about the intro.
I agree it might be unconvincing when I just say its condescending without explanation. What I mean is that it the article sounds like it is addressed to a child. Most people already have an idea of philosophy and may even have a better idea of it that is given by this intro. So rather than give a misleading and clichéd description of philosophy as "human curiosity" or when humans first began to yawn, etc., better just direct them straight away to more info and details about how it is practiced today.
Your word wonder is better, but miracle or marvel or something more affecting like anxiety are also as much a part of the picture.
The Greek bias in the into was obvious, Greek is Western and anyhow there are large articles on both Western Philosophy and Greek Philosophy.
Whats this about rules of style ? I never break rules especially when they are not written in stone.
-- Lucas
...even for me, a student of philosophy. It should have:
It's absolutely appalling that this article is considered to be a core topic and it is in a state like this. An article considered core topic should in my opinion be a featured article, or at least very, very close to a one. And now it's rated B. Disgraceful. Otvaltak 00:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Content arguments aside, the structure and language of this article is rough and amateur at best. Could an English professor or two with some background in philosophy spend a few minutes re-doing the worst sections? TeamZissou 07:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Update: I cleaned up that awful intro a little, but the whole of the article reads coursely. As for length, I'm glad it's so long! Look at some core-topic entries in paper encyclopedias, and you'll find that this length is acceptable for the breadth of the topic. TeamZissou 07:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Could someone fix the paragraphing on the descriptions of Metaphysis, Epistomology etc??
See history page. Could whoever is removing the cleanup tags discuss this on the talk page before doing so. Dbuckner 15:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi all. Anybody sees the need and the place to add a link to digital philosophy on this page? Regards.-- Powo 15:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(Please see heading above on this topic (the introduction) to which a number of people familiar with the area have contributed.)
The introduction is still poor. The opening about etymology contains the sixth-grade 'It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.' It is nowhere mentioned that many philosophers consider the etymology misleading or unhelpful.
Then there follows a bit about the 'schism' between analytic and continental. A bit too detailed for an introduction, plus it introduces the new idea of 'western philosophy'.
Then some 'tentative definitions'. 'The study or discussion of the truths, principles and practices of knowledge, and conduct, being, and ideology'. This is ungrammatical. What is the practice of being? What is the practice of conduct? As for 'That which grasps its own era in thought', what does that mean. Similarly 'The dissolution and relief from enigmas and mysteries' is ungrammatical.
For all of the definitions, citations are needed. Dbuckner 08:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Dbuckner, I redirect you to extensive discussion on this above. But do note that most others have tried to give more than destructive comments, if you would like to give us an example of how you might word the intro, without losing much of the information that other editors have considered important, please add a section here on the talk page and see what response it might get. -- Lucas
I've taken a quick glance at the layout of the article, and it seems that some of the borders are clashing and over-lapping on the right side of the screen. It can probably be corrected with some minor paragraph clean-ups. I'll do what I can, but I won't be able to do it all.
This (27 Dec 2006) is the worst yet. I've reapplied the clean-up tags. Would anyone like to claim credit for this? Dbuckner 16:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose to work to improve this article.
1dog \dog, dag\ noun often attrib [ME, fr. OE docga] (bef. 12c) 1 a : canid; esp : a highly variable domestic mammal (Canis familiaris) closely related to the common wolf (Canis lupus) b : a male dog; also : a male usu. carnivorous mammal 2 a : a worthless person b : fellow, chap <a lazy dog> <you lucky dog> 3 a : any of various usu. simple mechanical devices for holding, gripping, or fastening that consist of a spike, bar, or hook b : andiron 4 : uncharacteristic or affected stylishness or dignity <put on the dog> 5 cap : either of the constellations Canis Major or Canis Minor 6 pl : feet 7 pl : ruin <going to the dogs> 8 : one inferior of its kind: as a : an investment not worth its price b : an undesirable piece of merchandise 9 : an unattractive person and esp. a girl or woman 10 : hot dog 1 doglike \dog-lk\ adjective (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words philo, to love or to befriend, and sophia, to be wise. It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.
The above is what I found today when I visited the page for the first time. Accordingly, since the view here expounded -- that "Philosophy comes from an ancient Greek word" -- I presumed it would not take much effort to improve it!!! -- Ludvikus 18:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
To avoid the accusation of ethnocentrism, it is important to distinguish among cultures, and their relation to the subject of philosophy. On the other hand, we are writing for the English language Wikipedia. This itself justifies beginning with Western Philosophy.
A User, above, would like the Introduction/First paragraph to give a definition, or a quite definite specification, as to what philosophy is. But this is impossible - because there are, arguably, as many as there were philosophers since Philosophy began 2,500 years ago.
* Philosophy is the proposition that there is no change (Parmenides). * Philosophy is the proposition that all is change (Heracleitus). * Etc., ...
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 04:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's an authority:
Says author, Prof. Peter A. Angeles, Professor of Philosophy, "Philosophy has as many meanings as philosophers engaging in it." Dictionary of Philosophy by Peter A. Angeles (New York: Barnes & Noble Books, 1981) ISBN 0-06-463461-2
>> Will you take offense if I remind you here that it is easier to be a critique than a producer. (Ludovicus)
Well I've tried working on this article many times before. But since you ask, I have replaced the current, slack introduction, with a very short one. I've moved the cleanup tags to an appropriate place. Dbuckner 09:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
On the article generally, it is far too long as it stands. It consists mostly of long, rambling personal essays about various bits of philosophy. The article should be short, directing the reader via links to the relevant, more detailed articles. Furthermore it is a mixture of different traditions of thought, some of which are not philosophy (in the 'academic' sense) at all. I am going to move these to a separate article. The only prose in this should be connecting threads to tie the various sub-articles together in an organised and helpful way. Dbuckner 09:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section "Eastern vs Western". It makes the demonstrably false claim that people (meaning philosophers?) in the West only become aware of other philosophical systems after WWII. What do we make of Schopenhauer, then? And all the other non-philosophical stuff like Madame Blavatsky &c. The sentence " It also became clear that these systems lay geographically east of the United State, Europe, North Africa, and eastern Asia." is banal in the extreme. The sentence that begins "And it was no coincidence that …" has no main verb. So it goes. There needs to be something about the Eastern/Western thing. But this will not do. Dbuckner 09:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The word Philosophy has a variety of meanings. Its literal meaning derives from the ancient Greek word "Φιλοσοφία" (philo-sophia), which means "love of wisdom." It can mean a system of belief, values or tenets as in Buddhist philosophy, or the Tao; a body of philosophical literature that created over the centuries by a culture or civilization, as in 'Hindu philosophy'; a personal outlook or viewpoint, as in 'my philosophy of life'; truth found in mystical experience, or even alchemy and astrology, such as the philosopher's stone.
This article, however, concerns what is sometimes called 'academic philosophy'. Philosophy, in this sense, is the discipline whose subject matter is the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action and reality, whose goal is to discover the absolutely fundamental reason of everything it investigates, and whose method is rational enquiry, or enquiry guided by the canons of rationality.
Wikipedia, and Isaac Newton, recognize(d) this categorization.
---
Which is probably going to be mine. But some things are worth fighting over ... Dbuckner 16:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The word Philosophy has a variety of meanings. Its literal meaning derives from the ancient Greek word "Φιλοσοφία" ( philo- sophia), which means "love of wisdom." It can mean a system of belief, values or tenets as in Buddhist philosophy, or the Tao; a body of philosophical literature that created over the centuries by a culture or civilization, as in 'Hindu philosophy'; a personal outlook or viewpoint, as in 'my philosophy of life'; truth found in mystical experience, or even alchemy and astrology, such as the philosopher's stone.
This article, however, concerns what is sometimes called 'academic philosophy'. Philosophy, in this sense, is the discipline whose subject matter is the most fundamental and general concepts and principles involved in thought, action and reality, whose goal is to discover the absolutely fundamental reason of everything it investigates, and whose method is rational enquiry, or enquiry guided by the canons of rationality. [1]
The notion of Philosophy, in the English language, may best be explained by accounting for the word, its meaning, and its history. When other European languages are considered, etymologically, it is found that the same word exists there as well, indicating a common heritage. That is not necessarily the case with other languages whose speakers are not in physical proximity to the Mediterranean Sea. The word enters our language in the Fourteenth Century. It does so by way of (in reverse chronological order) Middle English, Old French, Latin, and Greek. [2] As it turns out, both the word, and the subject behind the notion, shift, or change with time, or in historical context, as is more fully narrated below. In brief, philosphy , orginally, roughly, encompassed all that we today mean by the three words, science, knowledge, and wisdom. As the content of these subjects increased, and changed, and in more recent times, with the historical phenomena known as the Industrial Revolution, and its consequent division of labor, philosophy became a vestige of what was left and not subsumed by the specialized sciences. Says author, Prof. Peter A. Angeles, Professor of Philosophy, "Philosophy has as many meanings as philosophers engaging in it." [3]
I have removed all of this section, as it was entirely ungrammatical and illiterate. There needs to be a short and unrambling section on the standard view here, namely that the history divides broadly into the Greek and Roman period, the Medieval period, and the Modern period, then a link to the appropriate article. Dbuckner 20:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed the sections on Analytic and Continental - if the person who added these had bothered to read further, he or she would have seen there is already an overlarge section dealing with this. Also moved the quotes from Marx and Hegel to the quotes section. Dbuckner 20:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I give you Merriam-Webster's:
The last way to explain philosophy is to ask a philologist, especially an Oxford or Webster one!
Please see the discussion below (was above) on competing introductions. If you would like to change the intro then add your example in here on the talk page like the rest of us, in its own subection below (see following point 43 of this page, to where I moved the discussion so as not to lose it, A, B and C are the three alternatives. A separate subsection is also added to allow others to comment on your intro. One of those entries seems to have more support than others but only marginally, maybe your intro will get the most concensus, for me however, there is a problem with how it flows and how immediately useful it is. Remeber there is alreayd a page called Western Philosophy. -- Lucas
Ok, we all know at this stage that the intro was too long to meet with good practice. We now have two different intros which are being switched and reverted between. Let me copy them both here for comparison, each in its own subsection, with comments for each in further subsections. First the one that says philosophy is analysis and investigation. Then the one that says it is hard to define.
Philosophy is the investigation and analysis of the basic principles which are the basis of all our knowledge and activity and are normally taken for granted. As a concept and as a subject it encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use today and can be profitably used regardless of where one's answers to specific philosophical questions lie.
Metaphysics is concerned with the nature of existence in the most fundamental sense. It attempts to answer the question as to what are the most fundamental attributes that all existing things share, if any, as well as fundamental questions concerning how they relate to one another. Epistemology is concerned with the nature of knowledge and how man can know things. As such certain aspects of the functioning of man's mind is included -- his rational faculty (particularly his conceptual capacity) and how it functions as well as his emotional nature. Ethics is concerned with the nature of values and in particular how this concept applies to man and his relationship to the external world and to other men. Politics is concerned with the behavior of men toward one another in the social context. Hence the first question of politics as a philosophical subject might be: how should men deal with one another in such a social context? Thus it can be seen that politics is really a sub-category of ethics since ethical criteria must be used in order to answer its questions. Aesthetics is concerned with man's artistic creations. It also involves choice, i.e., value criteria and as such can also be viewed as a sub-category of ethics.
There are a number of broad approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the traditions of people all over the world. One notable approach is that of Western philosophy, a school of thought originated by the Greeks and developed in the West (discussed above). Eastern philosophy is considered its counterpart since subjective non-rational criteria are largely used to evaluate and resolve issues. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy and epistemology.
Philosophy as a form of analysis is really quite a narrow category to include it under. Secondly, saying it refers to all knowledge only covers (badly) epsitemology (unless you want to calll ethics knowledge). Thirdly, we already have an article on Western philosophy and this opening should be general enough to apply to Eastern, African and Western philosophy. -- Lucas
Well I thought it a good idea to put the tags just after what was currently being debated. And then perhaps shift the tags as the cleanup progresses throught he article.
I agree with Dbuckner on this "slack" comment, it should be removed or tidied up.-- Lucas
Philosophy is that which has almost as many definitions as there have been philosophers. No simple definition can do it justice. Uncontested however, is the etymology of the word.
The word philosophy comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and, -sophia, to be wise. It can be construed then either as the love of wisdom or the wisdom of love.
In the contemporary English-speaking academic world it is often used implicitly to refer only to analytic philosophy and, on the other hand, in non-English speaking countries, it often refers implicitly only to continental philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy (confined largely to academia) is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy since both of these two areas talk of philosophy in general but are often only referring to that school. The easiest clue to indicate which of these philosophies is being referred to by the word philosophy is to note the language used. But modern usage of the term is much broader than this rather academic division.
Philosophy as a concept and a subject encompases all of knowledge and all that can be known including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today.
This would be preferable if the last paragraph were placed closer to the top, and the comments about the problems of definition were left as a caveat, not a lede. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes etymology seems to thing that is least disputed. You say "Dean" mentions something below, I can't find this, anyhow the usage of the word "philosophy" at universities should be given, since it can be used to refer to philosophy generally, its history, or certain schools.
The five branches are Western and the problem we have here is that there is already a page called Western Philosophy. Do you have any idea when philosophy began to be seen in 5 branches. It seems impossible though to avoid some duplication since even the etymology is Greek and Western. But to say philosophy is such and such and merely give the Western point of view fails the article. Unless you suggest merging the two articles together.
In Eastern philosophy, in Taoism or Confusianism, for example, there is a kind of holism that does not suit these 5 branches, but there is also a tendency there to associate philosophy not with theology (as occured in the middle ages) but with the politics of how best to rule and bring happiness to the state. Of course the massive Eastern take up of Marxist thought would also be worth a mention in this overview article. As too, perhaps the influence of Indian and Chinese philosophy on the West during the Enlightenment and later. And perhaps the Persian one.
"relational matters" as you say, that is, how philosophy relates to the sciences and literature would be better covered in this article (where else could they be). We could mention for example how many sciences were originally philosophy later being called natural philosophy, then science. And how such relations are both western and eastern. As to the idea of a separate thing called metaphilosophy, I think this is some kind of joke, since most philosophers in history have a "meta" position on philosophy (eg, Aristotle philosophy only comes in times of leisure). It also means metaphysics would have to be called meta-meta-physics! I don't deny some philosophical positions have a metaphilosophical angle even if this involves re-introducing philosophy to certain sciences that were originally considered as philosophy, to for example, historical anthropology or sociology. -- Lucas
Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct. The word comes from the ancient Greek words philo-, to love or to befriend, and -sophia, to be wise, and is commonly translated as "love of wisdom". In Western philosophy, the emphasis is on the rational investigation of truths and principles; in Eastern philosophy, there is greater emphasis on a more intuitive investigation. Philosophy is differentiated from science by an emphasis on first principles over empirical methods.
Academics distinguish between analytic philosophy and continental philosophy within Western philosophy. This modern-day division of analytic and continental philosophy is problematic for understanding the current use of the word philosophy. In fact, modern usage of the term is much broader than this academic division would indicate. In its broadest meaning, Philosophy encompasses all of human knowledge and all that may be known, including the means by which such knowledge can be acquired. The ancient Greeks organized the subject into five basic categories: metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics and aesthetics. This organization of the subject is still largely in use in Western philosophy today; sometimes the former two are taken together and the latter two are taken as being under ethics, with logic added as the third basic category.
There are many approaches to the subject as a whole which vary according to the philosophical tradition being followed, but the major threads are those of Western philosophy and Eastern philosophy. The methodology of philosophy is itself debated within the field of metaphilosophy.
A Philosophy is... introduction is appropriate for those not yet familiar with Western vs. Eastern and analytic vs. continental divisions. This intro. states the general subject matter and etymology up-front, as well as the major E-W division. JJL 15:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
To quote the first sentence of this intro, it says, "Philosophy is the investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, and conduct." This I believe is taken from an online dictionary. That aside I think that it is far to self assured. First thing to admit about philosophy is an ignorance and that there are really no easy anwsers. In detail the term of this intro: "investigate", sounds like detective work and ignores the interpretive and political aspects; "truths and principles" already assumes there are such things; "being, knowlege, and conduct", a list like this can only be partial, how manys ideas are left out, one could equally add, eg, society, essences, metaphysics, history, justice, life etc., etc.. "Conduct" sounds very odd, the conduct of what? Do you mean ethics or morals? -- Lucas
I find it strange that you want to equate all these different items: [mathematics]], sociology, psychology, physics, Literature. Is it an intellectual conceit to equate everything? Let editors their make their own discussion about how to define the area. As mentioned above Math may be easiar to define since its practice is pretty uniform and it is taught even to 5 year olds. The earth is also older than philosophy, reems of books have not been written trying to define it though. Anyhow, if it is uniformity you like, the current consensu into begins "philosophy is" and so is with wiki guidlines on this. Nor did you resolve any of the issues raised above on this intro. Also I do not like the way it refers to Eastern philosophy as irrational. The 18th century idea of philosophy as the "rational pursuit of knowledge etc." sounds like a quote the first ever Encyclopédie.
Firstly, philosophy is not only academic. The academic use of the word is covered in the intro but at a later paragraph, the academic usage that refers usually to either analytic continental is relevant at that point. Since philosophy is not only academic, it is a choice to follow some academic style of "philosophy is". If you consider it only as academic discipline, to which academy are you refering? Western? Continental? Analytic? Since your definition may only represent one.
My issue anyhow is not with "philosophy is" but what comes next. Here I find you definition constricting for an opening line. Only later in the article should we narrow it down.
As to others opinion, the "philosophy as hard to define" seems marginally more agreed upon since no one else seems to agree with this one. However, I'd prefer we could agree on something rather than just get a random vote. With this in mind please try to respond to the criticisms as I hope I have to yours. -- Lucas
Philosophy is a subject in the Western intellectual tradition. A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquire from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy. Its two combining forms come down to us from the ancient Greek word, "Φιλοσοφία;" these are philo-, or phil-; and -sophy. The former is tracible to the transliterated Greek philos, originally meaning dear, or friendly, but translating as loving, or having an affinity for. The latter is tracible to sophia, or sophos, originally meaning wisdom, but translating as knowledge, wisdom, or science. And it is from this analysis that that the common conclusion is deduced - that philosophy is the love of wisdom.
According to the Grolier Encyclopedia (1957), "When the word philosophy was first used by the Greeks, it meant simply the search for knowledge or science. Soon after, through the influence of Socrates, Plato, and later, Aristotle, it took on the additional meaning of the search for wisdom or the best life." [4] According to the New Americanized Encyclopaedia Britannica (1904), "A specific sense of the word first meets us in Plato, who defines the philosopher as one who apprehends the essence or reality of things in opposition to the man who dwells in appearance and the shows of sense. Logic, ethics, and physics, psychology, theory of knowledge, and metaphysics are all fused together by Plato in a semi-religious synthesis. It is not till we come to Aristotle that we find a demarkation of the different philosophic disciplines corresponding, in the main, to that still current." [5]
I find this fourth option for an intro, like the editor above, as the worst of the four optins so far. I will list my reasons for this and it is not merely negative. First philosophy is not a western subject anymore than it is eastern, geography is not something it concerns itself with much, in any case there is already a page Western Philosophy and unless you suggest a merge of the two pages, this statement is off the mark and dismisses the other editors above, who only seem to agree so far on etymology and not that it is a subject of western intellectuals.
I find the second sentence, "A rough, but brief, sense of what that subject is can be acquired from the etymological and linguistic analysis of the word philosophy.", to be very awkwardly constructed. Previously what was there was just that etymological meaning was the least disputed and agreed by all editors as a good place to start.
References to Goliers 1957 famously inaccurate encyclopedia and to the Americanised one are poor places to go for authentic information, they seem to ignore many philosophers and give a very biased account of the subject. They say philosophy was science before Plato! This is such an odd thing to say, and is contradicted by the second encylopedia. Many of the pre-socratics weere mystics and the like not scientists, it mixes up centuries. The second encyclopedia quoted above is clearly biased (unlike history) toward Aristotle, the author perhaps being scientifically minded.
Further trying to track down an origin for philosophy as you do by refering only to Plato and Aristotle in the introduction is a mistaken view of what it means, it loses itself in an etymological discussion which was already been given and that should be brief.
The intro should be as inclusive as possible, that means not ignoring people like Wittgenstein or Russell or Hume, nor Hegel or Heidegger nor Lau-Tzu or Confucius.
Most importantly wiki is not a meta-encyclopedia, we don't just reproduce what the dusty old ones said, there are scholars and experts directly online who know more about it than these archaic compilers. -- Lucas
Lucas, clearly, substitutes his opinions, and philosophical view, in brief, his own, personal philosophical view and preferences, in place of the Masters, and the recognized authorities. The ad hominum against Golier is absurd. What Golier says is by far suprior to these a-historical diatribes and ramblings in ignorance - I mean this literally - the above clearly demonstrates ignorance of writings on philosophy,or its history in the world!!! Ludvikus 16:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
After giving 3 names, of ancient Greeks, in Greek, Zeller begins his Outline, "The term φιλόσοφοι, although it existed at the time, was not applied to them. It seems first to have acquired its technical sense in the circle of Socrates and Plato and only after that to have attained general currency." There is no better way to begin the INTRODUCTION than with the view of what φιλόσοφοι was according to the views of these great Greek Masters!!!
Ludvikus 03:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I've had to revert again. The point is to start with some brief remarks about what philosophy is NOT (philosophy of life, alchemy &c), followed by a short characterisation of what experts currently think it is, split into
On the Eastern vs Western bit, in the first place philosophy has no geography. Everyone studies it everywhere, and mostly always have done. On the academic vs non-academic bit, the article as it stands is mostly about the academic bit, with bits added in that clearly do not belong, such as Zoroastranism &c. We need to keep the two bits distinct. If there really are going to be terrible arguments about this, why not make this a disambiguation page? Dbuckner 10:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I've archived this talk page - please note that some recent comments got muddled up BEFORE I did this - this was not my doing. Dbuckner 10:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
You also haven't answered my question about your qualifications. Dbuckner 15:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The rest of your remarks are all very interesting, but practically unverifiable. Can I recommend the page WP:OR. "Original research is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or which, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."". Every phrase I used in my introduction can be sourced to 'reliable sources'. Your contributions appear to be OR. Dbuckner 16:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
OK I am reverting for the third time, which takes me to a territory I've never been before after nearly 4 years as regular editor in WP philosophy. The case here is blatant and persistent OR by a problem user. Can anyone help? Dbuckner 16:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Moving forward, I suggest the three words/concepts be in that order in the opening paragraph.
Now why don't we take advantage of our philosophically wonderous Anglo-Saxon tongue.
I recommend replacing the former for the latter.
- can you imagine Shakespeare's Hamlet saying instead, "To Exist, or not to Exis"t? Yours truly, Ludvikus 20:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's MW, Collegiate, 10th ed.:
phil- or philo- combining form [ME, fr. OF, fr. L, fr. Gk, fr. philos dear, friendly] : loving : having an affinity for <philoprogenitive> (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
-sophy noun combining form [ME -sophie, fr. OF, fr. L -sophia, fr. Gk, fr. sophia wisdom, fr. sophos] : knowledge : wisdom : science <anthroposophy> (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
metaphysics = What is? (is that an accurate translation of the questions posed by the "holy trinity" of philosophy, SPA [Socrates, Plato, & Aritotle)??? -- Ludvikus 18:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that of the two sources of the above combining forms, wisdom is easier to pin down than love. And in that light, lets consider the following translations:
I find the current introduction poorer than any of the five competing introductions (A-D given below). All five had been included here on the talk page for commentary by editors as of the 29th December. I now find that it has been suddenly archived and that one intro (D) of Ludvikus has been inserted by him the actual article and the article page locked. It was the only entry however, that seemed to have no support, in fact had a long criticism given of it.
23.1 (A) Philosophy as Analysis and Investigation
23.3 (B) Philosophy as hard to define
23.5 (C) Philosophy as the study of being/knowledge/conduct
23.7 (D) Philosophy as a Western intellectual subject, an defined by encyclopedias as X
23.9 (E) Philosophy originally - a la Edward Zeller
The current intro I would not even honour by that name, it introduces about as little as anyone who barely knows the word would know, and even lies to them. Philosophy is not only a Western intellectual tradition nor does it concern only rational inquiry. This is an 18th century European definition.
Also it cannot be said to be literally love of wisdom. Only etymologically and not literally is it that, but also etymologically it can mean the wisdom of love.
I will again include the five competing intros below here in this talk page with all the comments already garnered on them. We can then look to choosing one of them. -- Lucas