This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article states the FIJI is the only fraternity that limits the use of its letters. This is not true. Chi Psi, for example, limits public exhibition of its letters (which is why it is referred to as "The Lodge" at most universities, instead of by its letters)-- Velvet elvis81 20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I would imagine that most fraternities that do limit it do so by tradition, not through any written code. But the article states that FIJI's limits are based on tradition. If there is some written bylaw, then change the article to reflect that. That said, the bylaw vs. tradition seems to me a dubious differentiation--a distinction w/o a difference. I think info about limiting the letters is article-worthy, but I don't think we should put that FIJI's the only one to do it. -- Velvet elvis81 10:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and edited the use of letters section since no one responded. If you think it would be more appropriate to say it's the only one to do it through bylaws instead of saying it's one of the few to limit the use, feel free.-- Velvet elvis81 23:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a tradition of getting a tattoo on the inside of the right ankle> my chapter used to do this though it was not official policy and in fact, frowned upon, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion. Mywikieditor2007 18:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I’m new to this so I hope I am putting this in the right place. My fraternity brother brought back with him from Old Miss a sticker for his car with the letters. He told us that at this University they use the letters on everything even shirts. Maybe this should be noted.
I know that FIJI only allows its members to use their greek letters in seven places. Wikipedia is not a member of Phi Gamma Delta and there are no legal measures to protect the use of your letters here. We are legally allowed to report on the facts. I have placed the actual greek letters on in the article, phi gamma delta. This is not the first time I have done this, my user page has been vandalized twice by what I assume to be a FIJI member because I put your greek letters on wikipedia. This is not going away. There is much wikipedia precident that all relavent content be placed on wikipedia, just look for pictures of Mohammed. In the interest of conformaty, you cannot avoid this. -- metta, The Sunborn 18:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I've put the Greek letters back, not least because the editor who removed them messed up the formatting of the Infobox! Before anyone says it: yes, I am a complete outsider (I'm not even American), but actually that's the point: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a community resource, and should not be biased towards (or against) a specific group's wishes, however important to them personally. There are apparently no legal restrictions on the use of these Greek letters here, nor are there any privacy concerns, so they should stay.
Sunborn makes an excellent point about precedent: we have pictures of Mohammed, and I think that's right, despite it being something which millions of Muslims object to in principle. That being so, it just looks silly for a fraternity, no matter how strongly held its members' feelings, to be given special treatment. I think RPH above has found the most sensible solution: to retain the Greek letters, but to include a prominent explanation of the convention in the main text.
Finally, I'll not that the intro to this article seems overly long and rather POV in places ("For over 158 years, the Phi Gams have lived by their values of Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence" reads as though it were taken from an advertising flyer), but I'm not doing anything about that as I don't have the required knowledge. The only edit I've made is to the letters, as explained above. Loganberry ( Talk) 23:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I will address two points: Use of the greek letters, and content of the page overall. Yes, the comment about "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. The values of the Fraternity are indeed Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence, the fraternity has existed for over 158 years now, and those values are pretty much the same now as they were at the inception of the fraternity. Now, more importantly - use of the greek letters on the Wikipage for FIJI. The greek letters are not what we use in order to be recognized, nor do we use them as our name officially in any capacity. The official name of the fraternity is "The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, Inc." For purposes of identification, we use "FIJI," "Phi Gam," and "Phi Gamma Delta." Outside of the seven places mentioned in the article, we NEVER use or mention our letters. Our jerseys read "FIJI." And though the chapter house will almost always have the greek letters on display, they also tend to have "FIJI" or "Phi Gamma Delta" in a similarly elegant and obvious place, because for the most part when people see the greek letters they do not recognize what fraternity it is, and only when they read the letters one by one do they (maybe) then say, "Oh... FIJI." I do not think putting the greek letters helps in any way, and actually would suggest that for the purposes of people seeing what our letters look like, maybe we could include pictures of the flag and badge, for instance. What I don't agree with is the assertion that all fraternity greek letters are up. FarmHouse, for instance, doesn't HAVE greek letters (publicly, at least). Oxfordcomma ( Talk) 18:24, 18 May 2006 (EST)
for the NPOV stance of wikipedia, "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. if something is true, then it can be sourced. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that doesn't operate on heresay.
As for the letters, as long as the fraternity house has them, the world sees these greek letters as a symbol of the fraternity. All fraternities accord a symbolism to their letters and that is why the infobox has a slot for it.
However, that said, I have created a phi gamma flag, and placed it in the position of the letters in the infobox. this should solve the problem.-- metta, The Sunborn 23:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Greek Letters for FIJI are legally trademarked. Thus, the fraternity's wishes over this issue should be met. Nevertheless, the current solution with the flag is a great way to resolve the issue. 152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I want to add a reference in the article to the above discussion. It provides a good concrete example of the use/non-use issues of the fraternity's letters. Any objections? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.68.242.6 (
talk)
15:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Obviously Fiji is an island and the fraternity sponsors "island"-themed events. However, I doubt that the alternate name FIJI was used from the inception of the fraternity. The article needs to be stated when "FIJI" began to be used and for what reason. Also, it needs to be stated exactly when in the fraternity's history the use of the Greek letters was limited. Badagnani 08:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I added partial information about the nickname. However I cannot find any sources that tell exactly how New York University came up with the nickname so I have not posted an origin to that.
FIJI is a shortened version of the Fraternity's full name. "Fee Gamma Delta(Phonetic)" is shortened to Fee-Gee (FIJI). The pronunciation of the greek letter 'Phi' has changed from "Fee" to "F-eye" in the American lexicon making the derivation of the FIJI nickname less obvious. 152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) -- Savagemonitor 01:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
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I'm trying to compile a list of all members of Phi Gamma Delta who have won at least one Olympic medal. As a (relatively) new user, and first-time contributor, I hope I'm doing this right. I have played in the "sandbox" and I know enough to be dangerous! PGD48 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to move the lists to another page (in the same manner as the Olympic Medalists page)? PGD48 03:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just made some substantial changes to the site and I'm looking for feedback. Does anyone have any comments on or suggestions for the result?
In keeping with my understanding of Wikipedia's format, I will move the most of the lists to a different page. Only a very few "very famous Fijis" will be on the main page. The rest will be on a "List of Famous Phi Gams" page. PGD48 01:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Request that the "This article does not cite any references or sources" tag be removed from this article. PGD48 14:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand the importance of famous alumni, but this seems like overkill. Why is there a full paragraph in the opening about various famous alumni stats? It's important but it shouldn't be in the opening of the article. Perhaps further down. Fiji is not characterized by famous alumni. Also, why is there a small list of "very famous Fijis" on this list and then another list on another page? They should all be included on the same page because "very famous Fijis" is subjective. 71.106.154.171 06:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As a proud Phi Gam, I wish to only see information on Wikipedia that is factual and within the bounds set forth by the Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta. That said, I have (recently) contacted the International Headquarters of Phi Gamma Delta about the content of some of the articles here and it is the opinion of IHQ that none of the material was contrary to Phi Gamma Delta's internal policies.
If you're a Fiji and would like to discuss this matter further, this would be one place to do so. Another possibility would be for you to contact IHQ directly and express your concerns. We all want the Phi Gamma Delta articles/information to be as accurate and appropriate as possible so I encourage you to do what you think is right.
Perge! PGD48 ( talk) 04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
As a proud FIJI, I have mixed feelings about the content revealed in this article. While I'm not sure who originally compiled it, it does cite the Purple Pilgrim, a book which by many standards if I am not mistaken is to be kept secret. If I am mistaken, correct me, but if not would this be grounds to propose for the removal of this article or would action need to be taken through IHQ?
Damn Proud. -J : March 03, 2008 1:46AM (CST| GMT-6) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.220.206 ( talk) 07:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as the content revealed, all of it can be found on phigam.org which is hardly a secret. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Dpuaji (
talk •
contribs)
19:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I am proud to be a FIJI! Though I respect IHQs decision to "ok" this page, I'm pretty pissed at it's presentation and complete disregard for our traditions. Wikipedia is suppose to be an encyclopedia. This site should be void of personal opinions or inferences. This article not only mocks FIJI, but also Wikipedia. It lacks citing, is packed with first person opinions, and inaccurately portrays FIJI. Additionally, it never even acknowledges the true purpose of our organization. I am fine with someone writing about my fraternity online, and I am excited that someone has the interest to do so. However, this article was not given the time or consideration necesssary for ANY article on Wikipedia. PERGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.20.183 ( talk) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Phi Gamma Delta is one of the few Greek-letter organizations in North America to limit the written display of its Greek letters." To me this indicates that there are other groups that limit the written display, but there is no sign of that in the reference. I would like to see it changed unless there is some way to reference other North American GLOs that do that. Naraht ( talk) 13:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a member of the fraternity and so any "restrictions" on displaying the letters do not apply here. As other fraternity/sorority articles include the actual Greek letters (and not just pictures of them), so should this one. Unless there is some compelling reason not to include them (accompanied by an actual reliable source that verifies it), removal of letters could be seen as vandalism. ... discospinster talk 21:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Although the fraternity might have by- laws that limit the use of the Greek letters by its own members, Wikipedia is not subject to these by-laws. Even though the letters ΦΓΔ may be trademarked, this does not preclude the fair use of the letters in order to describe the product (or in this case, the organization). ... discospinster talk 02:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
There has been an ongoing conflict regarding the use of the Greek letters ΦΓΔ in the article about the fraternity Phi Gamma Delta. Some editors (ostensibly members of the fraternity) claim that since the letters ΦΓΔ are trademarked, and since fraternity rules only allow their display at certain places, that the Wikipedia article (or even its talk page) must not include the Greek letters. On the other side of the table is the argument that even in the face of a trademark, the doctrine of fair use allows Wikipedia to display the letters as an encyclopedic fact, and any "reverence" held by the fraternity members towards the letters is not shared by Wikipedia and so has no relevance.
This has generated edit wars in the past, and will probably do so in the future, so I think there needs to be a wider discussion to put this to bed once and for all.
Prior discussions can be found on the talk page:
... discospinster talk 04:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep the letters Even if this particular 3-letter combo is trademarked, this is fair use. Thundermaker ( talk) 18:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Why is this being brought up again?? I'm always confused as to why we need to bring this issue up every 3 months when it seems that we already had a good solution in place. I always thought the flag was an elegant solution to show people our letters while still respecting our traditions.
Again, as a member of the fraternity I am unable to stay neutral. I also respect Wikipedia and refuse to engage in an edit war. But I wish to give my opinion again, Phi Gamma Delta has a tradition of not displaying their letters in a written form, Wikipedia in my experience tends to respect people and groups traditions and wishes. So why not respect ours?
The other solution is... why not just get rid of the letters? Are they really THAT necessary? I think the article would be fine without them. RickyCourtney ( talk) 22:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not make editorial decisions solely to respect traditions. On other pages, it displays images of Muhammad forbidden in some branches of Islam, it has naked photos of humans, and it mentions many (verifiable) facts about issues that governments and corporations would rather keep quiet. The letters are not crucial to the article, but our standard is to show them, and as long as they aren't violating copyright or slandering a living person, Wikipedia tries to stick to standards. Making our pages conform to the bylaws of its subjects would set a very dangerous precedent. If no one from your organization can write the letters, then someone from outside will have to do it instead. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you guys think the letters aren't on the IHQ site for no reason? First of all, our bylaws are secret, so I hope none of you are dumb enough to post them on here. Second of all, tradition, bylaw, whatever, the fact of the matter is that there are only a certain number of official places the letters can be displayed. This display is wholly disrespectful to our fraternity, and I will keep editing them EVERY day until you understand that concept. So NYCRuss, who made you king of all nazis to decide where MY fraternity's letter may or may not be placed?? Here is an idea, you stick to monitoring your own fraternity's page and leave our's alone. How's that for a discussion? Have fun changing the letters back 800x day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.220.197 ( talk 23:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Everything in this section leads me to believe that posting a picture of the official flag containing the greek letters was an acceptable compromise by all parties. Unfortunately, an editor has unilaterally decided to throw this solution out and continues on his campaign of pasting the letters on the page. Any attempts to correct his arrogance have lead to threats of banning due to "vandalism". It is unfortunate that a resource such as Wikipedia can be so easily manipulated and abused by people who clearly have nothing better to do with their time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.29.144 ( talk) 00:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
"Letters" in greek life usage often refers to what appears on the shirts of members of the fraternity. When one is wearing letters that is the shirt of the fraternity. Brothers of Phi Gamma Delta wear shirts with "FIJI" on it, and therefore "FIJI" should be considered their letters. This information should be changed not because it is the policy of the fraternity but because it is incorrect. Also, the uses by bairds and NIC were probably mistakes made by editors, this is common and often corrected to actually display the Letters of FIJI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 ( talk) 00:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
If the official letters vary by situation, would it be more accurate for the infobox to say: (ΦΓΔ in official uses—FIJI in informal uses). I could agree with a proposal like that if it's more accurate than the current version, although some editors may bemoan the fraternity infoboxes no longer having a standardized layout. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Displaying the Phi Gamma Delta letters on the talk page is like pouring salt on a wound. NYCRuss ☎ 01:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I said that I would rather block users than protect pages, but it looks like several IPs are trying to remove the letters at once without seeking consensus first, so a temporary protection is the most efficient way of fixing this (while also allowing the Anonymous editors to join the discussion). The page will be free to edit again in three days, but I will protect it for longer if people start making the same edit again after that time. There is a consensus to keep the letters, so if you want to remove them, you have to first establish a new consensus here on that talk page. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
At one point on the List of social fraternities and sororities page (prior to the use of tables), there was a similar issue to the one that we have here, in regards to the use of the letters. A solution that was at least temporarily agreed to was the use of a small version of the Phi Gamma Delta Flag to indicate the letters. (I'm not sure exactly what size would match up best with the default size of the text in the infobox, this is at 40px)
While this compromise was eventually discarded under arguments of making the entry an exception, I believe, I think it might be an acceptible compromise here. While Wikipedia is not censored, I think that if there are solutions that give the same information and also satisfy those with objections, that they should be considered. (There was a discussion of this at Talk:Phi Gamma Delta/Archive 1#Actual greek letters which appeared to be accepted) Naraht ( talk) 13:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
(Added disclaimer by Naraht: I am a member of a Greek Letter Organization, but not a member of Phi Gamma Delta. If you want to see which one, see my User page)
I think that as part of the images of Phi Gamma Delta to show examples of the 7 places that Phi Gamma Delta brothers use Greek Letters. We already have the flag and the recognition pin, I think finding examples of the other 5 would be worthwhile. Naraht ( talk) 14:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
With so many entries in the references from different pages in the same book, what is the appropriate way to reference the book *once* and then have the references only refer to the page and author? I've seen it done that way on other pages.
I'd just like to say I've been on volunteer staff for my fraternity for the last 20 years and hold a National committee position and I think someone at Fiji at WPI (Geolocate is useful) needs a Valium. From [2]
When you put the letters up on display for everyone to see you tell the brothers of phi gamma delta that you are against everything they believe in. That friendship, knowledge,service, morality and excellence are nothing but words. Fiji means more to me than a religious belief and rightly so I will stand for my beliefs. I have sacrificed alot for this country as a military member and I couldn't have done so without the values and principals of Phi Gamma Delta. They alone are the reason I can wake up in the morning and continue serving this country. " The slogan 'Press on' has and will always solve the problems of mankind.
At least we aren't here quite yet with this article. Naraht ( talk) 14:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I am just confused as to the necessity of the posting of the letters whatsoever. The article does not lose anything by not featuring the letters. The title of the article is "Phi Gamma Delta" this along with the section: "Use of the Greek letters" are more than sufficient in explaining the absence of the letters in the article. If any one is that curious as to what the letters look like there are multiple other places they can look. The argument about Muhammad is absolutely irrelevant as you are comparing a fraternity to a Religion, which is utterly ridiculous, and in my opinion completely offensive to the followers of Muhammad, but that is beside the point. Basically, why edit an article about a group of which you are not a member, does it not make sense that members of any organization, especially a secretive organization are not the most qualified to maintain an article? Texan21 ( talk) 23:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
These letters should be taken down off this site immediately. It is not a matter of censorship, nor a matter of people leaving Wikipedia to find the information elsewhere. It is a matter of respect. Brothers in Phi Gamma Delta do not use their letters anywhere except the seven acceptable places. As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters. It is one thing to have posted the letters and have no complaints, but I know of many who believe it is downright disrespectful to knowingly post them, and not change a thing once complaints are made. Editors who are not in the fraternity will never understand why this is offensive to brothers, and as such, may believe that my complaint is stupid. I cannot even begin to explain to you why this is such a big issue, but I equate it to you spitting on the letters and my very core values. Other sites across the web have taken down our letters when asked, but I am shocked that there is even a discussion over what to do on this issue. This is a matter of respect for the letters, and our fraternity, and blatantly posting them is an offense that I take personally. A possible way to resolve this issue is to post a photo of the flag instead of the text letters. This has been mentioned multiple times before, and I am surprised that this has not been implemented. That way, users see the letters and there is no censorship, yet our rules and values are not violated. The issues of the size, resolution, and placement of the flag can easily be resolved. For me, this would satisfy my issues with having the letters themselves posted. I know that other editors will say this is a conflict of interests because of my status in the fraternity, but I had to voice my concerns over the blatant disrespect by posting them. Perhaps there can be a compromise made on this matter, but until then there will always be brothers who are offended. There is a good chance that someone will remark with something to the effect of Wikipedia is not a brother and therefore is not bound by your rules, but to post the letters on the basis of continuity is ridiculous when a solution as simple as having an image with our letters on it would suffice. While Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, sometimes an effort has to be made to present the information in a non-offensive way. (For those curious, if Wikipedia was a physical book, and had our letters on a page, I would remove the page and burn it.) Let me say I am not against the freedom of knowledge, but I am against brothers being continually offended.
P!
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kylep123 (
talk •
contribs)
23:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
"As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters." While non-members are aloud to use our letters and I have no control over it, it is considered very disrespectful and I ask if there is another way to go about presenting them. And you are damn right I would burn that page. I would burn that page because keeping my letters in the acceptable locations mean more to me than knowledge I already have memorized. It is an example to show how much the letters mean to the brothers in this fraternity. I understand why people would want to have the letters up, but this is not a black and white issue and there are other solutions that allow the letters to be shown and not blatantly disrespect the members of this fraternity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
It is reassuring to know that no accommodations can be made over this issue. Clearly, I didn't realize that making a small change from text letters to a photograph on one page would violate all that Wikipedia stands for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
take down the letters. people can look up what the letters look like. -- Stackable292 ( talk) 14:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone have an opinion on the changes to the article that I made (in coordination with the additional FAQ) to allow those who have accounts to self-censor so they don't see the letters? I got advice on how to do this on WP:Help.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article states the FIJI is the only fraternity that limits the use of its letters. This is not true. Chi Psi, for example, limits public exhibition of its letters (which is why it is referred to as "The Lodge" at most universities, instead of by its letters)-- Velvet elvis81 20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I would imagine that most fraternities that do limit it do so by tradition, not through any written code. But the article states that FIJI's limits are based on tradition. If there is some written bylaw, then change the article to reflect that. That said, the bylaw vs. tradition seems to me a dubious differentiation--a distinction w/o a difference. I think info about limiting the letters is article-worthy, but I don't think we should put that FIJI's the only one to do it. -- Velvet elvis81 10:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and edited the use of letters section since no one responded. If you think it would be more appropriate to say it's the only one to do it through bylaws instead of saying it's one of the few to limit the use, feel free.-- Velvet elvis81 23:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a tradition of getting a tattoo on the inside of the right ankle> my chapter used to do this though it was not official policy and in fact, frowned upon, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion. Mywikieditor2007 18:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I’m new to this so I hope I am putting this in the right place. My fraternity brother brought back with him from Old Miss a sticker for his car with the letters. He told us that at this University they use the letters on everything even shirts. Maybe this should be noted.
I know that FIJI only allows its members to use their greek letters in seven places. Wikipedia is not a member of Phi Gamma Delta and there are no legal measures to protect the use of your letters here. We are legally allowed to report on the facts. I have placed the actual greek letters on in the article, phi gamma delta. This is not the first time I have done this, my user page has been vandalized twice by what I assume to be a FIJI member because I put your greek letters on wikipedia. This is not going away. There is much wikipedia precident that all relavent content be placed on wikipedia, just look for pictures of Mohammed. In the interest of conformaty, you cannot avoid this. -- metta, The Sunborn 18:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I've put the Greek letters back, not least because the editor who removed them messed up the formatting of the Infobox! Before anyone says it: yes, I am a complete outsider (I'm not even American), but actually that's the point: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a community resource, and should not be biased towards (or against) a specific group's wishes, however important to them personally. There are apparently no legal restrictions on the use of these Greek letters here, nor are there any privacy concerns, so they should stay.
Sunborn makes an excellent point about precedent: we have pictures of Mohammed, and I think that's right, despite it being something which millions of Muslims object to in principle. That being so, it just looks silly for a fraternity, no matter how strongly held its members' feelings, to be given special treatment. I think RPH above has found the most sensible solution: to retain the Greek letters, but to include a prominent explanation of the convention in the main text.
Finally, I'll not that the intro to this article seems overly long and rather POV in places ("For over 158 years, the Phi Gams have lived by their values of Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence" reads as though it were taken from an advertising flyer), but I'm not doing anything about that as I don't have the required knowledge. The only edit I've made is to the letters, as explained above. Loganberry ( Talk) 23:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I will address two points: Use of the greek letters, and content of the page overall. Yes, the comment about "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. The values of the Fraternity are indeed Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence, the fraternity has existed for over 158 years now, and those values are pretty much the same now as they were at the inception of the fraternity. Now, more importantly - use of the greek letters on the Wikipage for FIJI. The greek letters are not what we use in order to be recognized, nor do we use them as our name officially in any capacity. The official name of the fraternity is "The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, Inc." For purposes of identification, we use "FIJI," "Phi Gam," and "Phi Gamma Delta." Outside of the seven places mentioned in the article, we NEVER use or mention our letters. Our jerseys read "FIJI." And though the chapter house will almost always have the greek letters on display, they also tend to have "FIJI" or "Phi Gamma Delta" in a similarly elegant and obvious place, because for the most part when people see the greek letters they do not recognize what fraternity it is, and only when they read the letters one by one do they (maybe) then say, "Oh... FIJI." I do not think putting the greek letters helps in any way, and actually would suggest that for the purposes of people seeing what our letters look like, maybe we could include pictures of the flag and badge, for instance. What I don't agree with is the assertion that all fraternity greek letters are up. FarmHouse, for instance, doesn't HAVE greek letters (publicly, at least). Oxfordcomma ( Talk) 18:24, 18 May 2006 (EST)
for the NPOV stance of wikipedia, "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. if something is true, then it can be sourced. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that doesn't operate on heresay.
As for the letters, as long as the fraternity house has them, the world sees these greek letters as a symbol of the fraternity. All fraternities accord a symbolism to their letters and that is why the infobox has a slot for it.
However, that said, I have created a phi gamma flag, and placed it in the position of the letters in the infobox. this should solve the problem.-- metta, The Sunborn 23:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Greek Letters for FIJI are legally trademarked. Thus, the fraternity's wishes over this issue should be met. Nevertheless, the current solution with the flag is a great way to resolve the issue. 152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I want to add a reference in the article to the above discussion. It provides a good concrete example of the use/non-use issues of the fraternity's letters. Any objections? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.68.242.6 (
talk)
15:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Obviously Fiji is an island and the fraternity sponsors "island"-themed events. However, I doubt that the alternate name FIJI was used from the inception of the fraternity. The article needs to be stated when "FIJI" began to be used and for what reason. Also, it needs to be stated exactly when in the fraternity's history the use of the Greek letters was limited. Badagnani 08:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I added partial information about the nickname. However I cannot find any sources that tell exactly how New York University came up with the nickname so I have not posted an origin to that.
FIJI is a shortened version of the Fraternity's full name. "Fee Gamma Delta(Phonetic)" is shortened to Fee-Gee (FIJI). The pronunciation of the greek letter 'Phi' has changed from "Fee" to "F-eye" in the American lexicon making the derivation of the FIJI nickname less obvious. 152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) -- Savagemonitor 01:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Image:FIJIcrest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to compile a list of all members of Phi Gamma Delta who have won at least one Olympic medal. As a (relatively) new user, and first-time contributor, I hope I'm doing this right. I have played in the "sandbox" and I know enough to be dangerous! PGD48 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to move the lists to another page (in the same manner as the Olympic Medalists page)? PGD48 03:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just made some substantial changes to the site and I'm looking for feedback. Does anyone have any comments on or suggestions for the result?
In keeping with my understanding of Wikipedia's format, I will move the most of the lists to a different page. Only a very few "very famous Fijis" will be on the main page. The rest will be on a "List of Famous Phi Gams" page. PGD48 01:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Request that the "This article does not cite any references or sources" tag be removed from this article. PGD48 14:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand the importance of famous alumni, but this seems like overkill. Why is there a full paragraph in the opening about various famous alumni stats? It's important but it shouldn't be in the opening of the article. Perhaps further down. Fiji is not characterized by famous alumni. Also, why is there a small list of "very famous Fijis" on this list and then another list on another page? They should all be included on the same page because "very famous Fijis" is subjective. 71.106.154.171 06:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As a proud Phi Gam, I wish to only see information on Wikipedia that is factual and within the bounds set forth by the Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta. That said, I have (recently) contacted the International Headquarters of Phi Gamma Delta about the content of some of the articles here and it is the opinion of IHQ that none of the material was contrary to Phi Gamma Delta's internal policies.
If you're a Fiji and would like to discuss this matter further, this would be one place to do so. Another possibility would be for you to contact IHQ directly and express your concerns. We all want the Phi Gamma Delta articles/information to be as accurate and appropriate as possible so I encourage you to do what you think is right.
Perge! PGD48 ( talk) 04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
As a proud FIJI, I have mixed feelings about the content revealed in this article. While I'm not sure who originally compiled it, it does cite the Purple Pilgrim, a book which by many standards if I am not mistaken is to be kept secret. If I am mistaken, correct me, but if not would this be grounds to propose for the removal of this article or would action need to be taken through IHQ?
Damn Proud. -J : March 03, 2008 1:46AM (CST| GMT-6) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.220.206 ( talk) 07:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as the content revealed, all of it can be found on phigam.org which is hardly a secret. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Dpuaji (
talk •
contribs)
19:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I am proud to be a FIJI! Though I respect IHQs decision to "ok" this page, I'm pretty pissed at it's presentation and complete disregard for our traditions. Wikipedia is suppose to be an encyclopedia. This site should be void of personal opinions or inferences. This article not only mocks FIJI, but also Wikipedia. It lacks citing, is packed with first person opinions, and inaccurately portrays FIJI. Additionally, it never even acknowledges the true purpose of our organization. I am fine with someone writing about my fraternity online, and I am excited that someone has the interest to do so. However, this article was not given the time or consideration necesssary for ANY article on Wikipedia. PERGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.20.183 ( talk) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Phi Gamma Delta is one of the few Greek-letter organizations in North America to limit the written display of its Greek letters." To me this indicates that there are other groups that limit the written display, but there is no sign of that in the reference. I would like to see it changed unless there is some way to reference other North American GLOs that do that. Naraht ( talk) 13:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a member of the fraternity and so any "restrictions" on displaying the letters do not apply here. As other fraternity/sorority articles include the actual Greek letters (and not just pictures of them), so should this one. Unless there is some compelling reason not to include them (accompanied by an actual reliable source that verifies it), removal of letters could be seen as vandalism. ... discospinster talk 21:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Although the fraternity might have by- laws that limit the use of the Greek letters by its own members, Wikipedia is not subject to these by-laws. Even though the letters ΦΓΔ may be trademarked, this does not preclude the fair use of the letters in order to describe the product (or in this case, the organization). ... discospinster talk 02:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
There has been an ongoing conflict regarding the use of the Greek letters ΦΓΔ in the article about the fraternity Phi Gamma Delta. Some editors (ostensibly members of the fraternity) claim that since the letters ΦΓΔ are trademarked, and since fraternity rules only allow their display at certain places, that the Wikipedia article (or even its talk page) must not include the Greek letters. On the other side of the table is the argument that even in the face of a trademark, the doctrine of fair use allows Wikipedia to display the letters as an encyclopedic fact, and any "reverence" held by the fraternity members towards the letters is not shared by Wikipedia and so has no relevance.
This has generated edit wars in the past, and will probably do so in the future, so I think there needs to be a wider discussion to put this to bed once and for all.
Prior discussions can be found on the talk page:
... discospinster talk 04:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep the letters Even if this particular 3-letter combo is trademarked, this is fair use. Thundermaker ( talk) 18:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Why is this being brought up again?? I'm always confused as to why we need to bring this issue up every 3 months when it seems that we already had a good solution in place. I always thought the flag was an elegant solution to show people our letters while still respecting our traditions.
Again, as a member of the fraternity I am unable to stay neutral. I also respect Wikipedia and refuse to engage in an edit war. But I wish to give my opinion again, Phi Gamma Delta has a tradition of not displaying their letters in a written form, Wikipedia in my experience tends to respect people and groups traditions and wishes. So why not respect ours?
The other solution is... why not just get rid of the letters? Are they really THAT necessary? I think the article would be fine without them. RickyCourtney ( talk) 22:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not make editorial decisions solely to respect traditions. On other pages, it displays images of Muhammad forbidden in some branches of Islam, it has naked photos of humans, and it mentions many (verifiable) facts about issues that governments and corporations would rather keep quiet. The letters are not crucial to the article, but our standard is to show them, and as long as they aren't violating copyright or slandering a living person, Wikipedia tries to stick to standards. Making our pages conform to the bylaws of its subjects would set a very dangerous precedent. If no one from your organization can write the letters, then someone from outside will have to do it instead. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 03:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you guys think the letters aren't on the IHQ site for no reason? First of all, our bylaws are secret, so I hope none of you are dumb enough to post them on here. Second of all, tradition, bylaw, whatever, the fact of the matter is that there are only a certain number of official places the letters can be displayed. This display is wholly disrespectful to our fraternity, and I will keep editing them EVERY day until you understand that concept. So NYCRuss, who made you king of all nazis to decide where MY fraternity's letter may or may not be placed?? Here is an idea, you stick to monitoring your own fraternity's page and leave our's alone. How's that for a discussion? Have fun changing the letters back 800x day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.220.197 ( talk 23:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Everything in this section leads me to believe that posting a picture of the official flag containing the greek letters was an acceptable compromise by all parties. Unfortunately, an editor has unilaterally decided to throw this solution out and continues on his campaign of pasting the letters on the page. Any attempts to correct his arrogance have lead to threats of banning due to "vandalism". It is unfortunate that a resource such as Wikipedia can be so easily manipulated and abused by people who clearly have nothing better to do with their time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.29.144 ( talk) 00:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
"Letters" in greek life usage often refers to what appears on the shirts of members of the fraternity. When one is wearing letters that is the shirt of the fraternity. Brothers of Phi Gamma Delta wear shirts with "FIJI" on it, and therefore "FIJI" should be considered their letters. This information should be changed not because it is the policy of the fraternity but because it is incorrect. Also, the uses by bairds and NIC were probably mistakes made by editors, this is common and often corrected to actually display the Letters of FIJI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 ( talk) 00:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
If the official letters vary by situation, would it be more accurate for the infobox to say: (ΦΓΔ in official uses—FIJI in informal uses). I could agree with a proposal like that if it's more accurate than the current version, although some editors may bemoan the fraternity infoboxes no longer having a standardized layout. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Displaying the Phi Gamma Delta letters on the talk page is like pouring salt on a wound. NYCRuss ☎ 01:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I said that I would rather block users than protect pages, but it looks like several IPs are trying to remove the letters at once without seeking consensus first, so a temporary protection is the most efficient way of fixing this (while also allowing the Anonymous editors to join the discussion). The page will be free to edit again in three days, but I will protect it for longer if people start making the same edit again after that time. There is a consensus to keep the letters, so if you want to remove them, you have to first establish a new consensus here on that talk page. — Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
At one point on the List of social fraternities and sororities page (prior to the use of tables), there was a similar issue to the one that we have here, in regards to the use of the letters. A solution that was at least temporarily agreed to was the use of a small version of the Phi Gamma Delta Flag to indicate the letters. (I'm not sure exactly what size would match up best with the default size of the text in the infobox, this is at 40px)
While this compromise was eventually discarded under arguments of making the entry an exception, I believe, I think it might be an acceptible compromise here. While Wikipedia is not censored, I think that if there are solutions that give the same information and also satisfy those with objections, that they should be considered. (There was a discussion of this at Talk:Phi Gamma Delta/Archive 1#Actual greek letters which appeared to be accepted) Naraht ( talk) 13:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
(Added disclaimer by Naraht: I am a member of a Greek Letter Organization, but not a member of Phi Gamma Delta. If you want to see which one, see my User page)
I think that as part of the images of Phi Gamma Delta to show examples of the 7 places that Phi Gamma Delta brothers use Greek Letters. We already have the flag and the recognition pin, I think finding examples of the other 5 would be worthwhile. Naraht ( talk) 14:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
With so many entries in the references from different pages in the same book, what is the appropriate way to reference the book *once* and then have the references only refer to the page and author? I've seen it done that way on other pages.
I'd just like to say I've been on volunteer staff for my fraternity for the last 20 years and hold a National committee position and I think someone at Fiji at WPI (Geolocate is useful) needs a Valium. From [2]
When you put the letters up on display for everyone to see you tell the brothers of phi gamma delta that you are against everything they believe in. That friendship, knowledge,service, morality and excellence are nothing but words. Fiji means more to me than a religious belief and rightly so I will stand for my beliefs. I have sacrificed alot for this country as a military member and I couldn't have done so without the values and principals of Phi Gamma Delta. They alone are the reason I can wake up in the morning and continue serving this country. " The slogan 'Press on' has and will always solve the problems of mankind.
At least we aren't here quite yet with this article. Naraht ( talk) 14:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I am just confused as to the necessity of the posting of the letters whatsoever. The article does not lose anything by not featuring the letters. The title of the article is "Phi Gamma Delta" this along with the section: "Use of the Greek letters" are more than sufficient in explaining the absence of the letters in the article. If any one is that curious as to what the letters look like there are multiple other places they can look. The argument about Muhammad is absolutely irrelevant as you are comparing a fraternity to a Religion, which is utterly ridiculous, and in my opinion completely offensive to the followers of Muhammad, but that is beside the point. Basically, why edit an article about a group of which you are not a member, does it not make sense that members of any organization, especially a secretive organization are not the most qualified to maintain an article? Texan21 ( talk) 23:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
These letters should be taken down off this site immediately. It is not a matter of censorship, nor a matter of people leaving Wikipedia to find the information elsewhere. It is a matter of respect. Brothers in Phi Gamma Delta do not use their letters anywhere except the seven acceptable places. As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters. It is one thing to have posted the letters and have no complaints, but I know of many who believe it is downright disrespectful to knowingly post them, and not change a thing once complaints are made. Editors who are not in the fraternity will never understand why this is offensive to brothers, and as such, may believe that my complaint is stupid. I cannot even begin to explain to you why this is such a big issue, but I equate it to you spitting on the letters and my very core values. Other sites across the web have taken down our letters when asked, but I am shocked that there is even a discussion over what to do on this issue. This is a matter of respect for the letters, and our fraternity, and blatantly posting them is an offense that I take personally. A possible way to resolve this issue is to post a photo of the flag instead of the text letters. This has been mentioned multiple times before, and I am surprised that this has not been implemented. That way, users see the letters and there is no censorship, yet our rules and values are not violated. The issues of the size, resolution, and placement of the flag can easily be resolved. For me, this would satisfy my issues with having the letters themselves posted. I know that other editors will say this is a conflict of interests because of my status in the fraternity, but I had to voice my concerns over the blatant disrespect by posting them. Perhaps there can be a compromise made on this matter, but until then there will always be brothers who are offended. There is a good chance that someone will remark with something to the effect of Wikipedia is not a brother and therefore is not bound by your rules, but to post the letters on the basis of continuity is ridiculous when a solution as simple as having an image with our letters on it would suffice. While Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, sometimes an effort has to be made to present the information in a non-offensive way. (For those curious, if Wikipedia was a physical book, and had our letters on a page, I would remove the page and burn it.) Let me say I am not against the freedom of knowledge, but I am against brothers being continually offended.
P!
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kylep123 (
talk •
contribs)
23:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
"As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters." While non-members are aloud to use our letters and I have no control over it, it is considered very disrespectful and I ask if there is another way to go about presenting them. And you are damn right I would burn that page. I would burn that page because keeping my letters in the acceptable locations mean more to me than knowledge I already have memorized. It is an example to show how much the letters mean to the brothers in this fraternity. I understand why people would want to have the letters up, but this is not a black and white issue and there are other solutions that allow the letters to be shown and not blatantly disrespect the members of this fraternity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
It is reassuring to know that no accommodations can be made over this issue. Clearly, I didn't realize that making a small change from text letters to a photograph on one page would violate all that Wikipedia stands for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
take down the letters. people can look up what the letters look like. -- Stackable292 ( talk) 14:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone have an opinion on the changes to the article that I made (in coordination with the additional FAQ) to allow those who have accounts to self-censor so they don't see the letters? I got advice on how to do this on WP:Help.