This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Phenotypic trait article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The phrase "If the alleles for a trait in one organism are different" is so unclear as to be entirely meaningless. Will the original author please edit to indicate what is different from what???
Patrick0Moran 04:42, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Hello, there is an article called trait that is linked to an article called Phenotype. The Phenotype article is nice and compact as it is, but it does not contain all the information in " trait". I'm sort of itching to merge the contents of "trait" to "Phenotype". The Phenotype article will get much longer, however it would be more complete (the contents of trait would go below all that is included in phenotype as of today). Also, the movement of "[biological] trait" to "phenotype" would open up the trait articlespace to allow for a redirect to "biological trait" and "computer science trait" What do you guys think? Raazer 16:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Overall, no real support in favour, some clear arguments agains, for that reason, no merge. I will make he changes as I suggeste below, and we can go on from there. KimvdLinde 20:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Given the current definitions of phenotype and trait (biology) - and the various comments above about a proposed merge between the two, I would like to know the difference between a trait and a phenotype. To me, trait and phenotype both mean measurable characteristic. (If you find a reference, can you paste it here as well?) The definition at phenotype closely matches the "Encyclopedia of Genetics" reference that I added - it doesn't have a separate entry for trait. Dr d12 15:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't there be a disambguation for Traits in prototype-based object-oriented programming languages? Wouter Lievens 14:06, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know about CS, but if you do and others agree, no problem with the disambiguation. Raazer 16:48, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I propose to change : "As one synonym for trait is phenotype; the difference is that this second term can also indicate the total physical appearance or constitution." to “The term phenotype is sometimes used as a synonym for trait in common use, but strictly speaking, does not indicate the trait, but the status of that trait (e.g., the trait eye colour has the phenotypes blue, brown and hazel).” This will take away the incorect implication that I think resulted in the request for merging this, which I think is incorrect (and not how I would teach quantitative genetics at the university) -- KimvdLinde 06:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have added the changes, all links are redirected to this page, etc etc etc.-- KimvdLinde 23:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed the external link that sent the user to an advertisement.-- Tyanlee 05:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
What about cultural traits used in holocultural research to compare linkages between different cultures. For instance, succession by the neice is a trait
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
203.199.177.246 (
talk) 17:20, 12 October 2006
It is perhaps a bit late as the merge discussion above is already quite old. Nevertheless, I agree with those that argue that there is no real difference between trait and phenotype. For instance, E.J. Gardner (Principles of Genetics, 4th ed., John Wiley, New York, 1972, P. 456) defines phenotype as: "Characteristic of an individual observed or discernible by other means (i.e., tallness in garden peas; color blindness or bloodtype in man). Individuals of the same phenotype may appear alike but may not breed alike." The first phrase seems to be the same as what here is called "character", whereas the second phrase seems to refere to what here is called "trait". In both cases Gardner uses "phenotype".
Another point is that the current article seems a bit muddled. "Trait" (or phenotype) applies to all kinds of organisms, including, for instance, bacteria. So why give a description of chromosome structure, discuss the centromere, QTL and what not? It is not pertinent here. The same goes for the section on Mendelian expression of genes (a strange title in itself) and the discussion on the biochemistry of dominance. All those subjects do not belong here and are on top of that much better discussed elsewhere.
Most of the "Definition" section is superfluous, too. It is not necessary to describe the whole chain of transcription etc. In fact, protein or even RNA expression are sometimes regarded as phenotypes (traits) in themselves.
In summary, I don't see much that needs to be saved from this article. As far as I see, it can just be replaced by a redirect to phenotype....
-- Crusio ( talk) 14:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Adaptation states that it is about the process, but someone who didn't understand disambiguation (perhaps the one who put about 4 links into the entry for Adaptation on the Dab page ) made this the second 'graph of the article:
If it is not redundant to
Phenotypic trait, perhaps someone will see fit to (uhh) adapt it in the accompanying article.
--
Jerzy•
t
06:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Is there a name for a set of species that share the same (set of) given phenotypic trait(s)? 134.58.42.46 ( talk) 12:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
He is also known to have 'cheated' on his experiments, removing outliers and generally 'tidying' datasets - statistics, and repeating the experiments, shows that his results were just 'too perfect', a point first noted by the Godfather of statistics, RA Fisher, in 1936: http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/csci1950-l/presentations/REVISED--AFCB%202007%20Course%20Fisher%20and%20Mendel.ppt
I'm just some nerd scrolling through but this jumped out at me as rantlike and slightly out of place. Can anyone who knows more than me help this statement appear more professional? Thanks
Also the links pretty massive.
Mark T Bowen ( talk) 23:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
The basic problem with this article is that the definition only works with Mendelian-type characters, which are discrete and little influenced by nurture. In the definition we have at present, traits are contrasted with characters, as follows. A character is a feature of a species which may present as various traits. Examples:
Used like this, a trait can be defined as:
But, if an animal's weight is a character (which it surely is), then it is not clear what the trait is. This is because weight is a) continuous rather than discrete, b) polygenic in its inheritance and c) because weight is influenced by both heredity and environment. The alternative is to say that trait and character mean the same thing, as for example:
Both these sources are well established, and widely used. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 08:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
[The] allegation of deliberate falsification can finally be put to rest, because on closer analysis it has proved to be unsupported by convincing evidence.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
In conclusion, Fisher's criticism of Mendel's data—that Mendel was obtaining data too close to false expectations in the two sets of experiments involving the determination of segregation ratios—is undoubtedly unfounded.
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)
Is it? -- Oeoi ( talk) 15:05, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Whether or not all diseases are also traits, this article needs to specify Wikipedia's take on this issue. For example, the sentence "All diseases are a subset of traits". Or "If a bioentity is a disease, it is not considered a trait". Or more likely, some nuanced discussion of the differing views on this issue. Jaredroach ( talk) 21:01, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Phenotypic trait article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The phrase "If the alleles for a trait in one organism are different" is so unclear as to be entirely meaningless. Will the original author please edit to indicate what is different from what???
Patrick0Moran 04:42, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Hello, there is an article called trait that is linked to an article called Phenotype. The Phenotype article is nice and compact as it is, but it does not contain all the information in " trait". I'm sort of itching to merge the contents of "trait" to "Phenotype". The Phenotype article will get much longer, however it would be more complete (the contents of trait would go below all that is included in phenotype as of today). Also, the movement of "[biological] trait" to "phenotype" would open up the trait articlespace to allow for a redirect to "biological trait" and "computer science trait" What do you guys think? Raazer 16:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Overall, no real support in favour, some clear arguments agains, for that reason, no merge. I will make he changes as I suggeste below, and we can go on from there. KimvdLinde 20:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Given the current definitions of phenotype and trait (biology) - and the various comments above about a proposed merge between the two, I would like to know the difference between a trait and a phenotype. To me, trait and phenotype both mean measurable characteristic. (If you find a reference, can you paste it here as well?) The definition at phenotype closely matches the "Encyclopedia of Genetics" reference that I added - it doesn't have a separate entry for trait. Dr d12 15:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't there be a disambguation for Traits in prototype-based object-oriented programming languages? Wouter Lievens 14:06, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know about CS, but if you do and others agree, no problem with the disambiguation. Raazer 16:48, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I propose to change : "As one synonym for trait is phenotype; the difference is that this second term can also indicate the total physical appearance or constitution." to “The term phenotype is sometimes used as a synonym for trait in common use, but strictly speaking, does not indicate the trait, but the status of that trait (e.g., the trait eye colour has the phenotypes blue, brown and hazel).” This will take away the incorect implication that I think resulted in the request for merging this, which I think is incorrect (and not how I would teach quantitative genetics at the university) -- KimvdLinde 06:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have added the changes, all links are redirected to this page, etc etc etc.-- KimvdLinde 23:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed the external link that sent the user to an advertisement.-- Tyanlee 05:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
What about cultural traits used in holocultural research to compare linkages between different cultures. For instance, succession by the neice is a trait
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
203.199.177.246 (
talk) 17:20, 12 October 2006
It is perhaps a bit late as the merge discussion above is already quite old. Nevertheless, I agree with those that argue that there is no real difference between trait and phenotype. For instance, E.J. Gardner (Principles of Genetics, 4th ed., John Wiley, New York, 1972, P. 456) defines phenotype as: "Characteristic of an individual observed or discernible by other means (i.e., tallness in garden peas; color blindness or bloodtype in man). Individuals of the same phenotype may appear alike but may not breed alike." The first phrase seems to be the same as what here is called "character", whereas the second phrase seems to refere to what here is called "trait". In both cases Gardner uses "phenotype".
Another point is that the current article seems a bit muddled. "Trait" (or phenotype) applies to all kinds of organisms, including, for instance, bacteria. So why give a description of chromosome structure, discuss the centromere, QTL and what not? It is not pertinent here. The same goes for the section on Mendelian expression of genes (a strange title in itself) and the discussion on the biochemistry of dominance. All those subjects do not belong here and are on top of that much better discussed elsewhere.
Most of the "Definition" section is superfluous, too. It is not necessary to describe the whole chain of transcription etc. In fact, protein or even RNA expression are sometimes regarded as phenotypes (traits) in themselves.
In summary, I don't see much that needs to be saved from this article. As far as I see, it can just be replaced by a redirect to phenotype....
-- Crusio ( talk) 14:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Adaptation states that it is about the process, but someone who didn't understand disambiguation (perhaps the one who put about 4 links into the entry for Adaptation on the Dab page ) made this the second 'graph of the article:
If it is not redundant to
Phenotypic trait, perhaps someone will see fit to (uhh) adapt it in the accompanying article.
--
Jerzy•
t
06:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Is there a name for a set of species that share the same (set of) given phenotypic trait(s)? 134.58.42.46 ( talk) 12:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
He is also known to have 'cheated' on his experiments, removing outliers and generally 'tidying' datasets - statistics, and repeating the experiments, shows that his results were just 'too perfect', a point first noted by the Godfather of statistics, RA Fisher, in 1936: http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/csci1950-l/presentations/REVISED--AFCB%202007%20Course%20Fisher%20and%20Mendel.ppt
I'm just some nerd scrolling through but this jumped out at me as rantlike and slightly out of place. Can anyone who knows more than me help this statement appear more professional? Thanks
Also the links pretty massive.
Mark T Bowen ( talk) 23:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
The basic problem with this article is that the definition only works with Mendelian-type characters, which are discrete and little influenced by nurture. In the definition we have at present, traits are contrasted with characters, as follows. A character is a feature of a species which may present as various traits. Examples:
Used like this, a trait can be defined as:
But, if an animal's weight is a character (which it surely is), then it is not clear what the trait is. This is because weight is a) continuous rather than discrete, b) polygenic in its inheritance and c) because weight is influenced by both heredity and environment. The alternative is to say that trait and character mean the same thing, as for example:
Both these sources are well established, and widely used. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 08:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
[The] allegation of deliberate falsification can finally be put to rest, because on closer analysis it has proved to be unsupported by convincing evidence.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
In conclusion, Fisher's criticism of Mendel's data—that Mendel was obtaining data too close to false expectations in the two sets of experiments involving the determination of segregation ratios—is undoubtedly unfounded.
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)
Is it? -- Oeoi ( talk) 15:05, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Whether or not all diseases are also traits, this article needs to specify Wikipedia's take on this issue. For example, the sentence "All diseases are a subset of traits". Or "If a bioentity is a disease, it is not considered a trait". Or more likely, some nuanced discussion of the differing views on this issue. Jaredroach ( talk) 21:01, 26 December 2022 (UTC)