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There is no mention of Moses, the Exodus, or who might have been Pharaoh at the time on this page, though these matters are discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia.-- 69.236.186.94 00:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Made a few additions ;-) But still the list is woefully short of complete. So far I've only put in ones that I can be sure are in chronological order, any others would just be (close) guesswork. -- user:pb
There are 2 entries for Amenhotep IV in the 'pedia: Akhenaton and Akhnaten - User:Olivier
The Narmer article says that he succeeded Serket, but Serket is not on this list. Is he "The Scorpion of Egypt"? Serket was the name of a Scorpion goddess. RickK 04:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the dates for the year and or Pharaohs - you should tell what particular source you are using for your dates, not just that this is "one of many" possible dating schemes. john 05:46 24 May 2003 (UTC)
This page overlaps almost completely with Conventional Egyptian chronology. This one makes more sense as a "keeper", given the name (of the two, it's where I'd look for a full list). Not sure how to resolve the issue. -- Fab 23:46, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have some trouble with the Conventional Egyptian chronology page. In the first place, its dates for the 11th and 12th Dynasties are not the conventional dates at all - they are low dates. Those dynasties "standard" dates have been established for a long time, and are still used in fairly recent books. The page also, oddly, says that it's basing its list of the conventional chronology on David Rohl's Test of Time, which is a widely discredited revisionist work. The problem with the page here, as I see it, is that it provides no sources at all for the dates provided. john 20:47, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There is definitely still confusion over Egyptian dates. E.g. Reeves' "Valley of the Kings" uses the same dates as Wikipedia (which it says come from Baines' "Atlas of Ancient Egypt"), but Clayton's "Chronology of the Pharaohs" (a recent work) gives Tuthmosis I's reign as 1524-1518 (using a system which the author followed from Mumane's "Penguin Guide to Ancient Egypt"). Until there is rough consensus among Egyptologists, I think all we can do is pick one (so all the various pages are consisten), document which one we picked, and stick with it. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, most definitely. I suppose the question is: ought we to use time-worn dating systems which are familiar, but quite possibly somewhat incorrect, or more recent estimates which have not yet been accepted as a consensus? Some sense of what the most frequently used dates are would be helpful here. john 05:21, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do we need a Hebrew translation and transliteration in this article? Should we include translations of every other language in the world? What makes Hebrew special? Rick K 05:17, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that there should be a link to the article on the Biblical book of Exodus, if for no other reason then the massive part that the unnamed pharaoh plays in the book? - Zkion 20:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
A cleaned up version is in Pharaoh/Temp. Please add any comments there or in its talk page - I intend to move it to the "live" version later this week. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In the bullet point mentioning Cleopatra there is this: "...and the fact Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans would probably not tolerate a black ruler." Which came as a bit of a suprise to me. Could someone expound on why this would be the case? I've never heard that romans, greeks or especially egyptians of antiquity would treat blacks differently than whites. The wikipedia article on racism also mentions nothing prior to the colonial period on the subject but of course thats no failing of clarity here. -- xiaou
I disagree that it is an "open question" as to whether or not sibling marriages occurred. In addition to the historical record, there have been DNA tests confirming the close blood relation. Sibling marriage was at the core of Egyptian religion (Isis was the sister & wife of Osiris). When an Egyptian man married a woman who was not his sister by blood, he would formally adopt her as his "sister." Many such "adoption" papyri exist which indicate that this was a practice not unique to the Pharaohs. An edict of the Roman emperor Diocletian extended the ancient Roman prohibition against the children of incestuous marriages from inheriting property to the Egyptians. Why make such an edict if the practice were not widespread at the time?
Well, possible confusion may arrive from the fact that the egyptian words translated to "sister" and "brother" did not neccasarily imply siblings, just love (sibling and romantic). Tutthoth-Ankhre ( talk) 17:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The "open question" of whether the Pharaohs were viewed as god or divine is like arguing whether light is a wave or a particle. Our modern delineations would have been nonsensical to the ancient Egyptians.
Ok, Pharaohs were gods when they were dead. They were at least regared as demigods when they were alive. Tutthoth-Ankhre ( talk) 18:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
is there any reason that hebrew translation should be included in the head section? i've deleted it and if anyone sees that there's a reason, plz tell me and I'll put it back.. -- Mido 16:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
or arabic for that matter
Although I appreciate this is just an example list, it would be wise to order them by chronoligical age, if and when possible. E.g. Cleoptra should be last... Nil Einne 16:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section, which was totally weird. The problems listed seem to be completely random. We don't even know the order of kings or have any idea of the length of their reigns for centuries of Egyptian history. Even for dynasties we know well, like the 18th, there's no fully agreed upon chronology. Relationships among monarchs are frequently not known. Over all, it would probably take far less time to say what we do know about the pharaohs than what we don't, because we barely know anything at all about even a well known pharaoh like Ramesses II, as compared to, say, a modern figure of comparable importance and longevity like Louis XIV. The list given was completely arbitrary, and gave no idea why these problems, out of all the huge number of things we don't know, were being listed on the main Pharaoh page. I think it's best for it to not be here. john k 17:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
what's with the "The Pharaoh of the Oppression and of the Exodus" it has a very righteous and propaganda feel. I suppose someone wants a list of anti-semitic pharaohs.
Reading the etymology section, I noticed that the paragraph was messy, leaping from one time period to another in a kind of random order. So I rearranged the information in a forward chronological order, in order to explain how the word evolved over time from one continuous line from *past to present*. Much better, methinks, and more understandable. Bon apétit.
I also noticed that the words for "pharaoh" in Hebrew, Arabic and so on are largely immaterial to the topic of pharaoh. We can list 100s of languages if we want to, ancient and modern. So what? We don't need Hebrew or Arabic to explain where the word came from! So I relocated all that to the section for "Pharaoh" in other languages if people feel the need to expand on that. -- Glengordon01 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any doubt there were female pharaohs in Egyptian history? Certainly not with Hatshepsut. It's been claimed in a recent edit by an anonymous user that "Wikipedia is contradictory" on the matter. However, Wikipedia is not an authority on any subject in itself. The point is what the academic consensus says on this. So while it has been the long-standing chauvanistic view (perhaps even based on biblical bias where female pharaohs are not mentioned) that only men can acquire the title of Pharaoh, there has been recent evidence accepted showing that these views are incorrect. Egyptian culture simply did not have the same attitudes towards gender and sex as we would expect through Victorian-coloured glasses. -- Glengordon01 19:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that all dates link to a page discussing the major dating schema for Ancient Egypt. That might be the most comprehensive way to deal with the matter.
As to female pharaohs: Such a thing could never exist. Pharaoh was an inherently masculine concept. Hatshepsut was portrayed with a beard for a reason. That there were females who functioned as a Pharaoh is undeniable. I think perhaps the issue should be reworded to reflect this more exacting phraseology. To be something and to function as, or in the capacity of, something are two different things. I may function as a father, but I cannot be one. It is also an inherently masculine concept.
It seems to me that this issue is being viewed through reverse-chauvanistic glasses of our American culture. The Egyptians recognized that the blood was pasted through the female, but if a female could have become Pharaoh, why weren't there a great many more of them? The female's power lay in the royal blood coursing through her veins. The male had to marry a female of royal blood to pass that royal blood to his children. I have no doubt that there is now debate over this issue in our culture where everything is he/she, him/her encumbered, and where everyone is so afraid of offending anyone that they allow our so-called 'modern' views to be fobbed-off onto ancient cultures. We will never know the 'truth' unless we can divest ourselves of our cultural biases - and any Anthropologist worth their salt will tell you that this is impossible.
Perhaps we could represent both viewpoints on the pages which make reference to this issue?
That comment about Egyptians not tolerating a black ruler is absurd. The Nubian Dynasties were full of black rulers. As I've always understood it, the women were prized for fairer skin. Why? This was a sign that they did not have to work in the sun. It was a sign of gentility up until roughly the mid-20th century. Illogically, women suddenly want to look as if they spend their whole day working in the fields. Males were constantly portrayed as darker skinned. As to what the Greeks and Romans would have been likely to tolerate: I haven't any idea. There is no reason to believe that prejudice is that modern of a concept, but how much of it was based upon the shading of skin color....
And since when were the Nubians scientifically classified as "black" with no controversies? Wouldn't this statement be racist? In reality the Nubians were a mixture of native Eastern African populations and migrant populations from the Arabic peninsula - not to mention the constant appearance of Egyptian settlements that formed within Nubia throughout its 'colonized' history. Wandrative ( talk) 04:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
You cannot just declare something GA, it needs to be reviewed. Markh 11:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"Pharaoh" is a difficult term to explain due to the popular misconception that it is the egyptian word for king. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference to the king and then write an article on the Egyptian kings, we do a disservice to Egyptology and what the egyptian words actually mean. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference egyptian kingship, we neglect the fact that it did eventually become a title in the late period. And, if we adress all these aspects of the term, we run the risk of defining it so much that it makes a better wikitionary entry than wikipedia article. What really should this page include, and what should it not? Thanatosimii 05:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Note that pharaoh is only applicable to native Egyptian rulers. Greek rulers of Egypt, such as Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII should not be referred to as pharaohs. 96.229.179.106 ( talk) 02:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Many of the foreigners who ruled Egypt late in its history had themselves portrayed as pharaohs. I don't know that all of the foreign rulers did that (the Persians, for instance), but the Nubians and Ptolemies certainly did. A. Parrot ( talk) 01:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
The absolute monarchs of Egypt weren't mere 'kings'. And the Persian Emperors used the term, "Xayathia and Pharaoh" (Xayathia, being the Emperor of Persia). Wandrative ( talk) 04:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I propose we merge the article List of fictional Pharaohs into this article. The list is very short, and has little chance of getting any bigger. Plus it is an orphaned page.
The lead paragraph says that the term "pharaoh" is specific to the New Kingdom. However other articles give me the impression that it relates to all three egyptian kingdoms, if not the whole of ancient egypt. Perhaps somebody with more expertise could come up with a more accurate definition. BigBlueFish ( talk) 16:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This needs sources if it is to stay in. When I return home in 10 days I'll see what this says, if no one else can: The Identity of "King So" in Egypt (2 Kings XVII 4) Duane L. Christensen Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 39, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1989), pp. 140-153 Doug Weller ( talk) 18:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph of this section ending with - The absence of proper names in the first books of the Bible is no indication of the late date of their composition and of writer's vague knowledge of Egyptian history, rather to the contrary. The same is true of the use of the title Pharaoh for rulers earlier than those of the eighteenth dynasty, which is quite in keeping with Egyptian use at the time of the nineteenth dynasty- needs to be verified. Not everyone agrees with this statement: it requires that everyone agree the Bible was written during the 19th dynasty, it requires that the Pharaoh or King's name was unknown, and it in no way invalidates the argument that it helps prove a late composition of the Bible. So at least a reference to an reliable expert on ancient Egypt is required. And the whole paragraph should probably be moved out of this section. Nitpyck ( talk) 03:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
is there any evidence that nsw.t "king of Upper Egypt" was used for the pharaoh of all of Egypt? That is, as opposed to nsw-bjtj "king of Upper and Lower Egypt". -- dab (𒁳) 11:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing the category since this list is about a title, not about a specific person and that category includes mostly specific persons. There is a nice article titled Pharaoh of the Exodus which goes into details about the possible pharaohs and the problems about his identification, and it is already included in the category.
Possibly it would be better if Pharaoh of the Exodus was renamed Pharaohs in the Bible, and then the section from this article could be moved there, keeping all Bible- and Pharaoh-related information together. – Alensha talk 20:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I failed to find source references for the topic, matrilineal succession to the throne in Ancient Egypt, and so had to remove all mention of ancient Egypt from the Matrilineality article. (I'm now placing this identical section on the Talk pages of these two articles plus a third, the Pharaoh article below.)
Then I learned the above topic was in the article Pharaoh, a whole paragraph in the latter's section Pharaoh#Titles. When the link in the last sentence of this Titles paragraph is followed, which verifies said sentence, then in my opinion the whole paragraph becomes self-documented by its own integrity and factual details. But WP needs actual sources for important content, instead, which are unfortunately not there.
I'll be able to add this content (matrilineal succession to the throne in ancient Egypt) in both articles, Ancient Egypt and Matrilineality, if someone can find and insert such source references into the article Pharaoh (and notify me on my talk page).
Someone, please find and insert them.
We're all working together to help WP readers, For7thGen ( talk) 00:29, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
The living king was associated with the god Horus; his predecessor was associated with Horus’s father, Osiris, the main deity of the afterlife. According to this mythic succession, each king was considered to be the son of his predecessor, regardless of actual filiation. Therefore, the Egyptians considered the line of kings to be unbroken from the beginning of time....
Generally, the eldest son of the primary wife (“queen”) of the previous king succeeded his father. However, the succession in the reign of Ramesses II, confused by a myriad of male offspring, indicates that strict primogeniture was not always followed. The idea that the inheritance of the throne was passed through the matrilineal line (the “heiress theory”) is disproved by the fact that the chief wives of Tuthmose III, Amenhotep II and Amenhotep III were not themselves of royal blood, yet their sons acceded to the throne. The important role of royal daughters in the succession of the 18th Dynasty may be due to the lack of sons among the chief queens of this dynasty, through whom the royal legitimacy was passed, rather than being a reflection of any matrilineal tradition. From the 12th Dynasty onward, coregencies were instituted whenever there was a possible cause of instability surrounding the succession.
Potentially disputed succession was confirmed by oracle (Tuthmose III), by a claim of divine birth (kings of the 5th Dynasty in the Papyrus Westcar; Hatshepsut; Amenhotep III; Ramesses II), or by military intervention (Psamtik I and Amasis of the 26th Dynasty). In cases where there were no surviving heirs, the king could be elected from among the highest echelon of the administration (Ramesses I), or from the military (Horemheb), who traditionally married into the extended royal family.
Is there any basis for the claim that the Red Crown represents the womb and the White Crown represents the thymus? Googling only comes up pages quoting wikipedia, and a few crackpot original research sites. Added "citation needed" for these. 203.96.148.71 ( talk) 01:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I've asked on page Talk:Pharaohs in the Bible whether the word "Pharaoh" is understood as a proper name, rather than as a title, in the Bible. In case you're interested in the topic, please discuss there. Not sure whether this should be mentioned in this article too. -- 21:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.226.89.16 ( talk)
That's extreme irony. In fact, the word 'Pharaoh' was ONLY used in the Bible. There are no contemporaneous accounts from Egypt wher their Rulers are referred to as 'Pharaoh'. if we had never had a Bible, then this article would not exist, or it would be called by its correct title(Teti or Seneptre). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.88.26.252 ( talk) 10:52, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Please read WP:ERA. Off-topic remarks like how BCE/CE is driven by atheists are inappropriate given that BCE/CE was originally devised by theistic Jews. It is fairly standard practice to use the neutral system in articles on non-specifically-Christian religious topics. |
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It's so distracting it actually made the article hard to read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.31.254 ( talk) 05:21, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
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In the Etymology section, there appear some special characters that fail to render in my browser even when the character encoding is set to UTF-8, which should cover nearly anything. What are these characters, and how would readers view them? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 20:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
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"in the middle of the [[first ....." middle is an indistinct time; indistinct measurement is not suitable for an encyclopedic work. it should be "during" unless a specific general year(s) can be provided which may not be "in the middle". 66.74.176.59 ( talk) 04:24, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
What is going on here? I haven't looked at this article in a while, but it reads as if written by a 12-year-old. What the heck is the lead paragraph trying to convey? ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:53, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Per WP:IANAE (I Am Not An Egyptologist), I query this edit on 9 October by an IP editor. changed "Nesw Bity" to "Nesu Bity" 220 of Borg 01:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
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I wanted to upload a photograph showing a figure making an offering, and the cartouches in front of the figure contain the words 'Per-Aa'. The photograph was taken by me at Karnak Temple RP1a ( talk) 14:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
From the lead: "the actual term 'Pharaoh' was not used contemporaneously for a ruler until circa 1200 BCE." From Etymology: "During the reign of Thutmose III (circa 1479–1425 BCE) in the New Kingdom, after the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, pharaoh became the form of address for a person who was king.[5] The earliest instance where pr-ˤ3 is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned circa 1353–1336 BCE, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh..."[6] During the eighteenth dynasty (16th to 14th centuries BCE) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler." Thoughts? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 13:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you are completely right, but the article is not entirely about the phonetic usage of the title "Pharaoh", but rather about the position of absolute monarch that the word, "Pharaoh" represents (Typically shown by a Serekh or Cartouche). The position was clearly the same thing before the usage of the word. Wandrative ( talk) 19:56, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you are partially right, but the sentence in question is not talking about the modern English usage of the word "Pharaoh", The specific topic of that sentence is in regardas to how it was used by Egyptians at that time. The dates in Egyptology are all muddled, but the idea that all Egyptian rulers are called "Pharaoh" is something maybe for Simple Wiki, but we, as encyclopedic writers should use accurate data: i.e. calling them "Kings" until the time when Kingship was no longer retained and the [lesser] substitute "Pharaoh" was instantiated and employed. I have asked about the use of "Kings" vs "Pharaohs" on another talk page as well. Wcichello ( talk) 20:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
"the term "pharaoh" was not used contemporaneously for a ruler until Merneptah, c. 1210 BCE, during the Nineteenth dynasty, "king" being the term used most frequently until the middle of the Eighteenth Dynasty."
Since the term "pharoah" emerged during the reign of the Semitic Hyksos, we should consider a Semitic root of the term. Hence, I suggest this meaning "voice of Ra (פַּ רְעֹ ה "ph-ra")" where the ending (-on) in Syriac (ܦܪܥܘܢ) is used for minimization purposes in general. you can read some interesting arguments here. [1] [2]
…I was reminded there of the Coptic word ⲣ̄ⲣⲟ (rro or erro) meaning 'king' or 'emperor'. It's an odd word, but its origin becomes clearer when the Coptic definite article is appended, ⲡ-ⲣ̄ⲣⲟ (perro), 'the king'. The word is taken from the Ancient Egyptian 'Pharaoh'. In spite of the fact that Coptic is the direct descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language, the initial 'p' of the word became mistaken for the definite article at some point in the word’s history, and Copts began to take the 'p' out of 'Pharaoh'.
@ A. Parrot: I totally agree with what you've written, but I still wonder why that certain term (which has barely or never been used before the Hyksos) became prominent to describe the Egyptian rulers from the 14th dynasty onward. However, as you said, if there are no reliable sources, we can't write anything, that is why I wrote here in order to get some convincing answers. 124.18.19.219 ( talk) 00:02, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
The text currently says that "Pharoah" began to be applied to the king during the "New Kingdom", "Second Intermediate Period" as if the new kingdom were part of the Second Intermediate Period. I'm guessing an editing lacuna caused this. I could read this as either
- "New Kingdom, _after_ the Second Intermediate Period"
- "New Kingdom, _or possibly_ the Second Intermediate Period"
I suspect the former is actually correct (no evidence for the latter is suggested), but then what would be the point of mentioning the Second Intermediate Period? Casu Marzu ( talk) 19:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Talk about amun ra,anubis and more there stories and such 41.13.24.138 ( talk) 14:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
While the article title is pharoah, I note that in the lead and elsewhere the title predominantly used is 'king'. This seems confusing, and I note that there have been discussions here on the subject in the past. A. Parrot, you seem to be the most frequent contributor to the talk pages: can you explain this choice? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
All the scientific studies should be included even if they differed from old egyptologists like champolion. The fact the Sedge sign means branch of tree or plant not the Sedge plant Zahida2013 ( talk) 01:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm starting this Talk discussion to address a back-&-forth in the edits. On 23 August, Zahida2013 added a paragraph concerning an alternative theory for the etymology of the word pharaoh drawn from 'Aḥmad ʻĪd's book جغرافية التوراة في جزيرة الفراعنة Juġrāfiyyatu l-Tawrāti fī l-Jazīrati l-Farāʻanati, The Geography of the Torah in the Island of the Pharaohs. (It should be noted that there is a small error in the title in the original & restored edits which should be corrected if we ultimately decide to include the citation.) On 27 August, I reverted that edit, claiming that it was a fringe theory & thus needed independent sourcing. On 28 August, Zahida2013 reverted my reversion with the claim that this was in fact not a fringe theory for Egyptian Egyptologists & that such other sources existed. I have since reverted the reversion of my reversion with the comment that if such sources exist, they should be cited. This comment is meant to start a conversation in order to avoid an edit war.
The book's central claim is that the ancient Egyptians were the Biblical Amalekites after their displacement from Yemen, & that they carried with them the names from their former land. 'Aḥmad ʻĪd in fact claims that the ancient Egyptians were "true Arabs" (30). The etymology which Zahida2013 wishes to include proposes that hieroglyph M23 𓇓, usually understood as an ideogram for nswt king actually represents a Semitic word for branch—in Arabic فرع farʻ—with an extended semantics of prince or leader. (Zahida2013's paragraph is longer than this & has more detail. I'm just giving the core.) Thus, pharaoh is in fact in origin a Semitic word (just as the ancient Egyptians were a Semitic people).
The opening sentence of WP:FRINGE reads: 'In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.' I believe that this is true of this etymology in general—both internationally & in Egypt. Fringe theories can appear in Wikipedia articles, but in order to ensure that they aren't given undue weight, they should be independently sourced WP:FRIND. The mainstream view in both Anglophone & Egyptian scholarship is that the ancient Egyptian language was Afro-Asiatic, but not Semitic. I believe that 'Aḥmad ʻīd's view is outside the mainstream in both contexts.
I cannot identify any academic sources that cite 'Aḥmad ʻīd's book in Google Scholar. If the claim he makes is significant, it should be possible to find reliable independent sources. While I can find books in Google Books that acknowledge the existence of the book, I haven't yet been able to find any that reproduce its claims. Pathawi ( talk) 04:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
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Hello, usually I will use Wikipedia without an account, but I noticed a spelling mistake "Pharohf", and I want to edit it! Rayzaz ( talk) 01:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
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There is no mention of Moses, the Exodus, or who might have been Pharaoh at the time on this page, though these matters are discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia.-- 69.236.186.94 00:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Made a few additions ;-) But still the list is woefully short of complete. So far I've only put in ones that I can be sure are in chronological order, any others would just be (close) guesswork. -- user:pb
There are 2 entries for Amenhotep IV in the 'pedia: Akhenaton and Akhnaten - User:Olivier
The Narmer article says that he succeeded Serket, but Serket is not on this list. Is he "The Scorpion of Egypt"? Serket was the name of a Scorpion goddess. RickK 04:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the dates for the year and or Pharaohs - you should tell what particular source you are using for your dates, not just that this is "one of many" possible dating schemes. john 05:46 24 May 2003 (UTC)
This page overlaps almost completely with Conventional Egyptian chronology. This one makes more sense as a "keeper", given the name (of the two, it's where I'd look for a full list). Not sure how to resolve the issue. -- Fab 23:46, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have some trouble with the Conventional Egyptian chronology page. In the first place, its dates for the 11th and 12th Dynasties are not the conventional dates at all - they are low dates. Those dynasties "standard" dates have been established for a long time, and are still used in fairly recent books. The page also, oddly, says that it's basing its list of the conventional chronology on David Rohl's Test of Time, which is a widely discredited revisionist work. The problem with the page here, as I see it, is that it provides no sources at all for the dates provided. john 20:47, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There is definitely still confusion over Egyptian dates. E.g. Reeves' "Valley of the Kings" uses the same dates as Wikipedia (which it says come from Baines' "Atlas of Ancient Egypt"), but Clayton's "Chronology of the Pharaohs" (a recent work) gives Tuthmosis I's reign as 1524-1518 (using a system which the author followed from Mumane's "Penguin Guide to Ancient Egypt"). Until there is rough consensus among Egyptologists, I think all we can do is pick one (so all the various pages are consisten), document which one we picked, and stick with it. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, most definitely. I suppose the question is: ought we to use time-worn dating systems which are familiar, but quite possibly somewhat incorrect, or more recent estimates which have not yet been accepted as a consensus? Some sense of what the most frequently used dates are would be helpful here. john 05:21, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do we need a Hebrew translation and transliteration in this article? Should we include translations of every other language in the world? What makes Hebrew special? Rick K 05:17, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that there should be a link to the article on the Biblical book of Exodus, if for no other reason then the massive part that the unnamed pharaoh plays in the book? - Zkion 20:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
A cleaned up version is in Pharaoh/Temp. Please add any comments there or in its talk page - I intend to move it to the "live" version later this week. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In the bullet point mentioning Cleopatra there is this: "...and the fact Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans would probably not tolerate a black ruler." Which came as a bit of a suprise to me. Could someone expound on why this would be the case? I've never heard that romans, greeks or especially egyptians of antiquity would treat blacks differently than whites. The wikipedia article on racism also mentions nothing prior to the colonial period on the subject but of course thats no failing of clarity here. -- xiaou
I disagree that it is an "open question" as to whether or not sibling marriages occurred. In addition to the historical record, there have been DNA tests confirming the close blood relation. Sibling marriage was at the core of Egyptian religion (Isis was the sister & wife of Osiris). When an Egyptian man married a woman who was not his sister by blood, he would formally adopt her as his "sister." Many such "adoption" papyri exist which indicate that this was a practice not unique to the Pharaohs. An edict of the Roman emperor Diocletian extended the ancient Roman prohibition against the children of incestuous marriages from inheriting property to the Egyptians. Why make such an edict if the practice were not widespread at the time?
Well, possible confusion may arrive from the fact that the egyptian words translated to "sister" and "brother" did not neccasarily imply siblings, just love (sibling and romantic). Tutthoth-Ankhre ( talk) 17:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The "open question" of whether the Pharaohs were viewed as god or divine is like arguing whether light is a wave or a particle. Our modern delineations would have been nonsensical to the ancient Egyptians.
Ok, Pharaohs were gods when they were dead. They were at least regared as demigods when they were alive. Tutthoth-Ankhre ( talk) 18:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
is there any reason that hebrew translation should be included in the head section? i've deleted it and if anyone sees that there's a reason, plz tell me and I'll put it back.. -- Mido 16:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
or arabic for that matter
Although I appreciate this is just an example list, it would be wise to order them by chronoligical age, if and when possible. E.g. Cleoptra should be last... Nil Einne 16:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section, which was totally weird. The problems listed seem to be completely random. We don't even know the order of kings or have any idea of the length of their reigns for centuries of Egyptian history. Even for dynasties we know well, like the 18th, there's no fully agreed upon chronology. Relationships among monarchs are frequently not known. Over all, it would probably take far less time to say what we do know about the pharaohs than what we don't, because we barely know anything at all about even a well known pharaoh like Ramesses II, as compared to, say, a modern figure of comparable importance and longevity like Louis XIV. The list given was completely arbitrary, and gave no idea why these problems, out of all the huge number of things we don't know, were being listed on the main Pharaoh page. I think it's best for it to not be here. john k 17:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
what's with the "The Pharaoh of the Oppression and of the Exodus" it has a very righteous and propaganda feel. I suppose someone wants a list of anti-semitic pharaohs.
Reading the etymology section, I noticed that the paragraph was messy, leaping from one time period to another in a kind of random order. So I rearranged the information in a forward chronological order, in order to explain how the word evolved over time from one continuous line from *past to present*. Much better, methinks, and more understandable. Bon apétit.
I also noticed that the words for "pharaoh" in Hebrew, Arabic and so on are largely immaterial to the topic of pharaoh. We can list 100s of languages if we want to, ancient and modern. So what? We don't need Hebrew or Arabic to explain where the word came from! So I relocated all that to the section for "Pharaoh" in other languages if people feel the need to expand on that. -- Glengordon01 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any doubt there were female pharaohs in Egyptian history? Certainly not with Hatshepsut. It's been claimed in a recent edit by an anonymous user that "Wikipedia is contradictory" on the matter. However, Wikipedia is not an authority on any subject in itself. The point is what the academic consensus says on this. So while it has been the long-standing chauvanistic view (perhaps even based on biblical bias where female pharaohs are not mentioned) that only men can acquire the title of Pharaoh, there has been recent evidence accepted showing that these views are incorrect. Egyptian culture simply did not have the same attitudes towards gender and sex as we would expect through Victorian-coloured glasses. -- Glengordon01 19:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that all dates link to a page discussing the major dating schema for Ancient Egypt. That might be the most comprehensive way to deal with the matter.
As to female pharaohs: Such a thing could never exist. Pharaoh was an inherently masculine concept. Hatshepsut was portrayed with a beard for a reason. That there were females who functioned as a Pharaoh is undeniable. I think perhaps the issue should be reworded to reflect this more exacting phraseology. To be something and to function as, or in the capacity of, something are two different things. I may function as a father, but I cannot be one. It is also an inherently masculine concept.
It seems to me that this issue is being viewed through reverse-chauvanistic glasses of our American culture. The Egyptians recognized that the blood was pasted through the female, but if a female could have become Pharaoh, why weren't there a great many more of them? The female's power lay in the royal blood coursing through her veins. The male had to marry a female of royal blood to pass that royal blood to his children. I have no doubt that there is now debate over this issue in our culture where everything is he/she, him/her encumbered, and where everyone is so afraid of offending anyone that they allow our so-called 'modern' views to be fobbed-off onto ancient cultures. We will never know the 'truth' unless we can divest ourselves of our cultural biases - and any Anthropologist worth their salt will tell you that this is impossible.
Perhaps we could represent both viewpoints on the pages which make reference to this issue?
That comment about Egyptians not tolerating a black ruler is absurd. The Nubian Dynasties were full of black rulers. As I've always understood it, the women were prized for fairer skin. Why? This was a sign that they did not have to work in the sun. It was a sign of gentility up until roughly the mid-20th century. Illogically, women suddenly want to look as if they spend their whole day working in the fields. Males were constantly portrayed as darker skinned. As to what the Greeks and Romans would have been likely to tolerate: I haven't any idea. There is no reason to believe that prejudice is that modern of a concept, but how much of it was based upon the shading of skin color....
And since when were the Nubians scientifically classified as "black" with no controversies? Wouldn't this statement be racist? In reality the Nubians were a mixture of native Eastern African populations and migrant populations from the Arabic peninsula - not to mention the constant appearance of Egyptian settlements that formed within Nubia throughout its 'colonized' history. Wandrative ( talk) 04:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
You cannot just declare something GA, it needs to be reviewed. Markh 11:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"Pharaoh" is a difficult term to explain due to the popular misconception that it is the egyptian word for king. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference to the king and then write an article on the Egyptian kings, we do a disservice to Egyptology and what the egyptian words actually mean. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference egyptian kingship, we neglect the fact that it did eventually become a title in the late period. And, if we adress all these aspects of the term, we run the risk of defining it so much that it makes a better wikitionary entry than wikipedia article. What really should this page include, and what should it not? Thanatosimii 05:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Note that pharaoh is only applicable to native Egyptian rulers. Greek rulers of Egypt, such as Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII should not be referred to as pharaohs. 96.229.179.106 ( talk) 02:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Many of the foreigners who ruled Egypt late in its history had themselves portrayed as pharaohs. I don't know that all of the foreign rulers did that (the Persians, for instance), but the Nubians and Ptolemies certainly did. A. Parrot ( talk) 01:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
The absolute monarchs of Egypt weren't mere 'kings'. And the Persian Emperors used the term, "Xayathia and Pharaoh" (Xayathia, being the Emperor of Persia). Wandrative ( talk) 04:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I propose we merge the article List of fictional Pharaohs into this article. The list is very short, and has little chance of getting any bigger. Plus it is an orphaned page.
The lead paragraph says that the term "pharaoh" is specific to the New Kingdom. However other articles give me the impression that it relates to all three egyptian kingdoms, if not the whole of ancient egypt. Perhaps somebody with more expertise could come up with a more accurate definition. BigBlueFish ( talk) 16:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This needs sources if it is to stay in. When I return home in 10 days I'll see what this says, if no one else can: The Identity of "King So" in Egypt (2 Kings XVII 4) Duane L. Christensen Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 39, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1989), pp. 140-153 Doug Weller ( talk) 18:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The last paragraph of this section ending with - The absence of proper names in the first books of the Bible is no indication of the late date of their composition and of writer's vague knowledge of Egyptian history, rather to the contrary. The same is true of the use of the title Pharaoh for rulers earlier than those of the eighteenth dynasty, which is quite in keeping with Egyptian use at the time of the nineteenth dynasty- needs to be verified. Not everyone agrees with this statement: it requires that everyone agree the Bible was written during the 19th dynasty, it requires that the Pharaoh or King's name was unknown, and it in no way invalidates the argument that it helps prove a late composition of the Bible. So at least a reference to an reliable expert on ancient Egypt is required. And the whole paragraph should probably be moved out of this section. Nitpyck ( talk) 03:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
is there any evidence that nsw.t "king of Upper Egypt" was used for the pharaoh of all of Egypt? That is, as opposed to nsw-bjtj "king of Upper and Lower Egypt". -- dab (𒁳) 11:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing the category since this list is about a title, not about a specific person and that category includes mostly specific persons. There is a nice article titled Pharaoh of the Exodus which goes into details about the possible pharaohs and the problems about his identification, and it is already included in the category.
Possibly it would be better if Pharaoh of the Exodus was renamed Pharaohs in the Bible, and then the section from this article could be moved there, keeping all Bible- and Pharaoh-related information together. – Alensha talk 20:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I failed to find source references for the topic, matrilineal succession to the throne in Ancient Egypt, and so had to remove all mention of ancient Egypt from the Matrilineality article. (I'm now placing this identical section on the Talk pages of these two articles plus a third, the Pharaoh article below.)
Then I learned the above topic was in the article Pharaoh, a whole paragraph in the latter's section Pharaoh#Titles. When the link in the last sentence of this Titles paragraph is followed, which verifies said sentence, then in my opinion the whole paragraph becomes self-documented by its own integrity and factual details. But WP needs actual sources for important content, instead, which are unfortunately not there.
I'll be able to add this content (matrilineal succession to the throne in ancient Egypt) in both articles, Ancient Egypt and Matrilineality, if someone can find and insert such source references into the article Pharaoh (and notify me on my talk page).
Someone, please find and insert them.
We're all working together to help WP readers, For7thGen ( talk) 00:29, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
The living king was associated with the god Horus; his predecessor was associated with Horus’s father, Osiris, the main deity of the afterlife. According to this mythic succession, each king was considered to be the son of his predecessor, regardless of actual filiation. Therefore, the Egyptians considered the line of kings to be unbroken from the beginning of time....
Generally, the eldest son of the primary wife (“queen”) of the previous king succeeded his father. However, the succession in the reign of Ramesses II, confused by a myriad of male offspring, indicates that strict primogeniture was not always followed. The idea that the inheritance of the throne was passed through the matrilineal line (the “heiress theory”) is disproved by the fact that the chief wives of Tuthmose III, Amenhotep II and Amenhotep III were not themselves of royal blood, yet their sons acceded to the throne. The important role of royal daughters in the succession of the 18th Dynasty may be due to the lack of sons among the chief queens of this dynasty, through whom the royal legitimacy was passed, rather than being a reflection of any matrilineal tradition. From the 12th Dynasty onward, coregencies were instituted whenever there was a possible cause of instability surrounding the succession.
Potentially disputed succession was confirmed by oracle (Tuthmose III), by a claim of divine birth (kings of the 5th Dynasty in the Papyrus Westcar; Hatshepsut; Amenhotep III; Ramesses II), or by military intervention (Psamtik I and Amasis of the 26th Dynasty). In cases where there were no surviving heirs, the king could be elected from among the highest echelon of the administration (Ramesses I), or from the military (Horemheb), who traditionally married into the extended royal family.
Is there any basis for the claim that the Red Crown represents the womb and the White Crown represents the thymus? Googling only comes up pages quoting wikipedia, and a few crackpot original research sites. Added "citation needed" for these. 203.96.148.71 ( talk) 01:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I've asked on page Talk:Pharaohs in the Bible whether the word "Pharaoh" is understood as a proper name, rather than as a title, in the Bible. In case you're interested in the topic, please discuss there. Not sure whether this should be mentioned in this article too. -- 21:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.226.89.16 ( talk)
That's extreme irony. In fact, the word 'Pharaoh' was ONLY used in the Bible. There are no contemporaneous accounts from Egypt wher their Rulers are referred to as 'Pharaoh'. if we had never had a Bible, then this article would not exist, or it would be called by its correct title(Teti or Seneptre). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.88.26.252 ( talk) 10:52, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Please read WP:ERA. Off-topic remarks like how BCE/CE is driven by atheists are inappropriate given that BCE/CE was originally devised by theistic Jews. It is fairly standard practice to use the neutral system in articles on non-specifically-Christian religious topics. |
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It's so distracting it actually made the article hard to read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.31.254 ( talk) 05:21, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
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In the Etymology section, there appear some special characters that fail to render in my browser even when the character encoding is set to UTF-8, which should cover nearly anything. What are these characters, and how would readers view them? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 20:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
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"in the middle of the [[first ....." middle is an indistinct time; indistinct measurement is not suitable for an encyclopedic work. it should be "during" unless a specific general year(s) can be provided which may not be "in the middle". 66.74.176.59 ( talk) 04:24, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
What is going on here? I haven't looked at this article in a while, but it reads as if written by a 12-year-old. What the heck is the lead paragraph trying to convey? ♆ CUSH ♆ 21:53, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Per WP:IANAE (I Am Not An Egyptologist), I query this edit on 9 October by an IP editor. changed "Nesw Bity" to "Nesu Bity" 220 of Borg 01:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
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I wanted to upload a photograph showing a figure making an offering, and the cartouches in front of the figure contain the words 'Per-Aa'. The photograph was taken by me at Karnak Temple RP1a ( talk) 14:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
From the lead: "the actual term 'Pharaoh' was not used contemporaneously for a ruler until circa 1200 BCE." From Etymology: "During the reign of Thutmose III (circa 1479–1425 BCE) in the New Kingdom, after the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, pharaoh became the form of address for a person who was king.[5] The earliest instance where pr-ˤ3 is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned circa 1353–1336 BCE, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh..."[6] During the eighteenth dynasty (16th to 14th centuries BCE) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler." Thoughts? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 13:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you are completely right, but the article is not entirely about the phonetic usage of the title "Pharaoh", but rather about the position of absolute monarch that the word, "Pharaoh" represents (Typically shown by a Serekh or Cartouche). The position was clearly the same thing before the usage of the word. Wandrative ( talk) 19:56, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you are partially right, but the sentence in question is not talking about the modern English usage of the word "Pharaoh", The specific topic of that sentence is in regardas to how it was used by Egyptians at that time. The dates in Egyptology are all muddled, but the idea that all Egyptian rulers are called "Pharaoh" is something maybe for Simple Wiki, but we, as encyclopedic writers should use accurate data: i.e. calling them "Kings" until the time when Kingship was no longer retained and the [lesser] substitute "Pharaoh" was instantiated and employed. I have asked about the use of "Kings" vs "Pharaohs" on another talk page as well. Wcichello ( talk) 20:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
"the term "pharaoh" was not used contemporaneously for a ruler until Merneptah, c. 1210 BCE, during the Nineteenth dynasty, "king" being the term used most frequently until the middle of the Eighteenth Dynasty."
Since the term "pharoah" emerged during the reign of the Semitic Hyksos, we should consider a Semitic root of the term. Hence, I suggest this meaning "voice of Ra (פַּ רְעֹ ה "ph-ra")" where the ending (-on) in Syriac (ܦܪܥܘܢ) is used for minimization purposes in general. you can read some interesting arguments here. [1] [2]
…I was reminded there of the Coptic word ⲣ̄ⲣⲟ (rro or erro) meaning 'king' or 'emperor'. It's an odd word, but its origin becomes clearer when the Coptic definite article is appended, ⲡ-ⲣ̄ⲣⲟ (perro), 'the king'. The word is taken from the Ancient Egyptian 'Pharaoh'. In spite of the fact that Coptic is the direct descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language, the initial 'p' of the word became mistaken for the definite article at some point in the word’s history, and Copts began to take the 'p' out of 'Pharaoh'.
@ A. Parrot: I totally agree with what you've written, but I still wonder why that certain term (which has barely or never been used before the Hyksos) became prominent to describe the Egyptian rulers from the 14th dynasty onward. However, as you said, if there are no reliable sources, we can't write anything, that is why I wrote here in order to get some convincing answers. 124.18.19.219 ( talk) 00:02, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
The text currently says that "Pharoah" began to be applied to the king during the "New Kingdom", "Second Intermediate Period" as if the new kingdom were part of the Second Intermediate Period. I'm guessing an editing lacuna caused this. I could read this as either
- "New Kingdom, _after_ the Second Intermediate Period"
- "New Kingdom, _or possibly_ the Second Intermediate Period"
I suspect the former is actually correct (no evidence for the latter is suggested), but then what would be the point of mentioning the Second Intermediate Period? Casu Marzu ( talk) 19:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Talk about amun ra,anubis and more there stories and such 41.13.24.138 ( talk) 14:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
While the article title is pharoah, I note that in the lead and elsewhere the title predominantly used is 'king'. This seems confusing, and I note that there have been discussions here on the subject in the past. A. Parrot, you seem to be the most frequent contributor to the talk pages: can you explain this choice? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
All the scientific studies should be included even if they differed from old egyptologists like champolion. The fact the Sedge sign means branch of tree or plant not the Sedge plant Zahida2013 ( talk) 01:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm starting this Talk discussion to address a back-&-forth in the edits. On 23 August, Zahida2013 added a paragraph concerning an alternative theory for the etymology of the word pharaoh drawn from 'Aḥmad ʻĪd's book جغرافية التوراة في جزيرة الفراعنة Juġrāfiyyatu l-Tawrāti fī l-Jazīrati l-Farāʻanati, The Geography of the Torah in the Island of the Pharaohs. (It should be noted that there is a small error in the title in the original & restored edits which should be corrected if we ultimately decide to include the citation.) On 27 August, I reverted that edit, claiming that it was a fringe theory & thus needed independent sourcing. On 28 August, Zahida2013 reverted my reversion with the claim that this was in fact not a fringe theory for Egyptian Egyptologists & that such other sources existed. I have since reverted the reversion of my reversion with the comment that if such sources exist, they should be cited. This comment is meant to start a conversation in order to avoid an edit war.
The book's central claim is that the ancient Egyptians were the Biblical Amalekites after their displacement from Yemen, & that they carried with them the names from their former land. 'Aḥmad ʻĪd in fact claims that the ancient Egyptians were "true Arabs" (30). The etymology which Zahida2013 wishes to include proposes that hieroglyph M23 𓇓, usually understood as an ideogram for nswt king actually represents a Semitic word for branch—in Arabic فرع farʻ—with an extended semantics of prince or leader. (Zahida2013's paragraph is longer than this & has more detail. I'm just giving the core.) Thus, pharaoh is in fact in origin a Semitic word (just as the ancient Egyptians were a Semitic people).
The opening sentence of WP:FRINGE reads: 'In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.' I believe that this is true of this etymology in general—both internationally & in Egypt. Fringe theories can appear in Wikipedia articles, but in order to ensure that they aren't given undue weight, they should be independently sourced WP:FRIND. The mainstream view in both Anglophone & Egyptian scholarship is that the ancient Egyptian language was Afro-Asiatic, but not Semitic. I believe that 'Aḥmad ʻīd's view is outside the mainstream in both contexts.
I cannot identify any academic sources that cite 'Aḥmad ʻīd's book in Google Scholar. If the claim he makes is significant, it should be possible to find reliable independent sources. While I can find books in Google Books that acknowledge the existence of the book, I haven't yet been able to find any that reproduce its claims. Pathawi ( talk) 04:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
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Hello, usually I will use Wikipedia without an account, but I noticed a spelling mistake "Pharohf", and I want to edit it! Rayzaz ( talk) 01:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)