This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
[moved to article]
unsure how to represent the rtl reading. Maybe we should mirror the glyphs after all, since rtl reading seems to be general consensus? At the moment I'm trying breaking the text into lines, but small browser windows will mess it up. dab (ᛏ) 11:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia should not be subjective. The fact is, that we don't know, if the disc represents language at all, or if it is calendrical, for instance. This 'Phaistos disc' article has lost its proportions by the latest months of attacks.
86.48.21.153 00:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Ole Hagen
You write: All interpretations as calendar are going back to Pomerance ...(quote over). I would say, that an astrolabium is somehow different from a calendar, never mind. Can you also tell me 'from whom then derives the notion, that the characters were letters or syllables?'. I still believe, that the overwhelming focus on particular interpretations is out of proportion.
An astrolabium is a star map, a picture of the constellations. Making long suppressing lists in columns of one, assigning own phonetic values to the ideographs, very cunning.Compared with an proportioned article like the one about The keepers of the Easter Island, this one is corrupted. I shall suggest that it is brought back to its earlier form.
I've finished my consideration. This Wikipedia article about the Phaistos disc ought to be brought back to its original stage, as it was two months ago.
Do these language tags serve any real purpose? Anyone who is not warned off an article with a clearly non-English title may not be warned by a tag eitherl and at least one of them was misplaced on Duhoux's article, which is of course in English, even though he's French. Septentrionalis 16:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
From the table of glyphs:
What's AB mean? Septentrionalis 16:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
There is clear consensus not to include more Faucounau in this article. If this editing against consensus continues, I propose to include less. Septentrionalis 19:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"If the PD script is not any other, it follows that it began in the Aegean". No ! It may be a non-script, or the script of the Atlantes, as advocated by some !.. Moreover, why developping in the WP article only two solutions for the origin of the script ? Why not citing the comparisons with the Chinese signs, which has also been advocated ?.. In fact, there are only three reasonable theories, which have attracted the attention of the specialists : the Luwian theory (Best/Woudhuizen/Achterberg) -- the Cretan theory (Torsten Timm) -- the Aegean original theory (J.Faucounau). All the other theories (e.g. A. Cuny's) have been dismissed by specialists as "very unlikely"( 80.90.39.72 20:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC))
I think we can agree that if we have to pick the three most notable recent approaches, they would be (a) comparison with Linear A, (b) comparison with hiero. Luwian and (c) Faucounau's puzzle. So I am not completely opposed to present more detail on what exactly JF proposes. Look at Atlantis: Their article became so overburdened with mad hypotheses that they branched out Location hypotheses of Atlantis. If Wikipedia can have Location_hypotheses_of_Atlantis#Finland, it can certainly also have Phaistos Disc decipherment claims#"Proto-Ionic", no problem. I would even like to see a comparative table of glyph assignments, and an evaluation of the quality of the Greek assembled by JF. So, Rose-mary, instead of vandalizing here, go ahead and edit Phaistos Disc decipherment claims. dab (ᛏ) 09:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
you are in blatant violation of 3RR again, Rose-mary, take a 24h break. Any edit from a 80.90.* IP for the next 24 hours should be rolled back; the IPs should just be blocked for a short period, however, since Rose-mary is known to redial on reconnect when banned, and we don't want to block half of Belgium. dab (ᛏ) 17:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This thesis has been advocated by several scholars because the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts are trite, unsignificant or farfetched. As these glyphs appear to belong to the Aegean area (cf Paul Muenzer, L.Godart, S.Dow., etc.), they see the disk's script as the original invention of an Aegean people. One of these scholars, J.Faucounau supposes this people to be a maritime one, the proto-Ionians, settled in the Cycladic Islands since c.2500BC, who borrowed the idea of a hieroglyphic acrophonic writing from Egypt during the VIth Dynasty.
This is now the second time that Dr Lukas Pietsch has deleted the paragraph I asked to add about the hypothesis that the PD script would be an "Aegean original script". What are Mr -sorry, Dr!- Pietsch's credentials to be an arbitrator in this field ? Dr Pietsch -the obscure author of a more obscure and confidential book on "Variable Grammars"-, is well-known in the Hamburg University for his extraordinary arrogance. Because he is the inventor of the German Extended Unicode Keyboard (a very minor achievement), he acts as if he was a universally recognized Professor-Doctor, giving HIS opinion on everything, NEVER discussing a matter (how could he do ? He generally is a perfect ignoramus in the fields he believes to be an expert), Such an incredible arrogance has led people on the NET to write PUBLIC APPRECIATIONS about him like the following one : (I quote) "Pietsch, you are just a little primitive hater of everything human and positive, a racist of the worst kind. Your letters are full of dirt. No regards" (Reference may be given on request). Personnally, I consider him as a liar and an ignoramus in the Phaistos Disk's matters. Should really this guy be the arbitrator in the Phaistos Disk's WP article ?... This seems to me the preliminary question for an honest discussion, able to keep the high reputation of the WP Encyclopedia ( 80.90.39.45 14:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC))
you thoroughly misunderstand Wikipedia. You do not need to be an expert on your field with your nose in the air and your own dogmatic convictions. That will hinder more than help you work with people. You want to write an article on the Phaistos disk as you see it, and sign it with your name, you are free to do that on geocities or anywhere else. On wikipedia, you are the troublemaker, obsessed with a single topic, refusing to get an account, refusing to listen to other opinions and beat out a compromise, and repeatedly violating policy and getting youself banned. Whatever your reputation in academia, you have no, or a rather bad, reputation here, and you do nothing to improve it. It doesn't matter what you think of Mr. Pietsch. He is not ranting against consensus, he is engaging in intelligent debate on many articles, and is defending the consensus version. If you do not lighten up to how things are done here, you will achieve nothing here. zilch. rien. You can just as welll drop it now and open your own website, ranting about how unfairly you were treated by the cabal ("pack of wolves") on that crappy upstart site Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 19:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I am now reverting your paragraph, because you say, in Wikipedia's voice, "the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts are trite, unsignificant or farfetched". What the hell? You are free to cite people's opinions. Preferably quote people other than Faucounau who are convinced that the script is "originally Aegaean". Some comparisons are farfetched. Others aren't. Faucounau's theories are extremely farfetched, why, he has to rewrite half the Bronze Age history to justify his solution. By all means, give precise citations (not just "Paul Muenzer, L.Godart, S.Dow., etc.", what's "etc."?) and we can have a "Agaean origin of the glyphs" section. But don't use Wikipedia's voice to give us more Faucounauisms. You are bright enough to know what you are doing, I estimate, so don't play stupid and play fair. If you don't, I won't waste 'verbose' explanations on you again, reverts are cheap. dab (ᛏ) 19:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
User 80.90.39.45 has cited Ipsen, Schwartz and others in favour of his thesis about an "original invention of an Aegean people". But see yourself:
G. Ipsen: „Es liegt nahe, diesen Widerspruch dadurch zu beseitigen, daß man dem Diskus fremde Herkunft zuschreibt. [...] doch den Bereich der Ägäis darf man nicht verlassen. Dann aber wird der Widerspruch durch die Bestimmung der Herkunft nicht erledigt, denn die Linearschrift ist gemeinägäisch. Die Frage des Diskus muß also innerhalb der ägäischen Welt bereinigt werden“ [Ipsen 1929: 15].
„Der unvermittelte Zwiespalt zwischen dem Bildsinn und der Sprachbedeutung dieser Schrift beweist, daß ihre Ausbildung von anderen Schriften abhängt. Die Schrift des Diskus von Phaistos ist eine a b h ä n g i g e E r f i n d u n g, die Bekanntschaft mit fremden, bestehenden Schriften voraussetzt“ [Ipsen 1929: 11, Hervorhebung im Original].
„Die Schriftgeschichte kennt eine vollkommene Parallele aus derselben Epoche, die hethitische Bilderschrift. Sie ist unter denselben Einflüssen ähnlich zustande gekommen: auch sie (wenigstens später) eine Silben Bilderschrift, von kleinasiatischer Erscheinung, im Aussehen den ägyptischen Hieroglyphen nachgebildet, im Silbenwert den Zeichen der Keilschrift folgend. Und wie die Bilderschrift des Diskus unvermittelt neben der Linearschrift steht, so die hethitischen Hieroglyphen neben der gleichzeitigen hethitischen Keilschrift“ [Ipsen 1929: 17].
In the same way B. Schwartz wrote: "It does mean that a genetic relationship exists between the writing of the disk and that of the linear scripts." [Schwartz 1956: 108].
To cite this scholars together with the Faucounau thesis that "the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts to be too few" is against there true words.
To say things like "that the script would be identical." is only funny. It's obviously that both scripts are not identical. All I have done in my eyes is to demonstrate that the statistics of similar shaped signs in both scripts fits to good to deny a relation between both scripts.
Additionally there is no doubt that Crete is part of the Aegean Sea! There are only a few theses about an origin outside the Aegean Sea. A sentence that the Phaistos disc is at least of Aegean origin should be enough. Ttimm 17:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
So, you make no difference between "influenced" and "genetically related", or, to take an example, between what G. Ipsen wrote about a possible influence of Hittite Cuneiform on Hieroglyphic Hittite on one hand, and between the genetical relationship between Linear A and Linear B ?.. I think your hatred against the J.F.'s work makes you blind or stupid... Sorry to have to say that ! ( 80.90.39.79 20:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC))
User 80.90.xxx: now you have really gone too far. Lukas Pietsch and other editors on this page have been extremely patient with your persistent POV-pushing.
By know, you should know the rules of WP well: in controversial areas, first establish consensus on the Talk page (which you have been unable to do); and only then add to the main page and do not engage in edit wars; especially in disputed or difficult areas, be careful to cite reputable authorities rather than to express your own opinions ("comparisons... are trite"); and, most fundamentally, behave respectfully and politely. Your failure to respect the first two rules is bad enough. But now you are attacking Lukas Pietsch, a serious and fair editor, in the most offensive terms. As for the usenet quote, I looked it up, and it is just as bizarre as your attack here; it is by a user (transam) with no particular reputation, and appears completely out of the blue. (Not to mention that it has some curious stylistic similarities to your writing.)
Anyway, Pietsch is in no way an "arbitrator" on this article, it is just that he has taken the brunt of maintaining WP quality standards in the face of your assaults on them. Threatening to write nasty letters to his University is contemptible (and arguably violates the spirit of WP rules against legal threats), though I must say I don't see that it would have any particular effect. As a graduate student, I was once asked to reply to crank correspondence and compose polite responses to it, so I can predict that his university will nicely reply: "We appreciate the time you have taken to write us. Thank you for your comments about Dr. Pietsch. Your comments will be given all due weight in our ongoing efforts to maintain the high standards for which our institution is known."
You should realize by now that several editors on WP understand your games and will not tolerate your continued abuse of our patience. -- Macrakis 20:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
My "main reproach" is not that particular questionable edit. It is your intemperate attitude and language. WP is a cooperative endeavor, and you are not cooperating. -- Macrakis 21:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
80.90.39.45 wrote "I would like to know why the PD sign n° 01 (and not the sign n° 39, which would be more logical) is linked by T.Timm to the Linear A/B sign RE". Such a link is not given at my article or homepage. The only source is chapter 11 "Annäherung an die Bestimmung von Silbenwerten" in Timm 2005 where also the explantion can be found. But before you can start reading chapter 11 you have to read chapter 4, 8, 9 and 10. Chapter 11 is based on the results given there. And dont miss the sentence "Zusammenfassend sei betont, dass die Silbenzuordnungen für D 01 und D 08 als wenig gesicherte Hypothesen betrachtet werden müssen. Die zu den betreffenden Lautwerten führenden Überlegungen sind zwar in sich schlüssig, die Gesamtheit der ihnen zugrunde liegenden Hinweise erscheint für eine sichere Aussage jedoch als nicht ausreichend." [Timm 2005: 175]. Ttimm 18:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Some portions of the following may be worth including on their merits:
Septentrionalis 23:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
OK. I made the addition. But I wonder about the reasons behind the hatred you have, you guys, to mention J.Faucounau's work... Seems pretty strange to me... ( 80.90.39.79 08:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC))
[Also: Dejeuner sur l'Herbe, with caption: Jean Faucounau's Proto-Ionian Decipherment is stirring a revolution in intellectual circles everywhere. Here, young Parisians in a park just outside Paris gather to discuss the latest developments. Image removed under fair use.]
without sign comparison, there can be "decipherments" in any language at all. This comparison may either be with a known glyph, or with a word in the target language by the acrophonic principle. So to compare the merits of comparative appui of our three best-documented attempts:
dab (ᛏ) 09:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Timm's and Best&al.'s approaches are thus grounded with similar firmness in comparison with known contemporary literacy. Best&al. have of course the advantage of giving a coherent text, but I would not consider this decipherment verified until and unless it opens the road to further decipherment of Linear A or Cretan hieroglyphic inscriptions, or at least a sensible reading of the Arkalochori Axe (on which the authors remain conspicuously silent). Faucounau's reading is founded on comparative evidence only about half as good, and furthermore comparison with Iron Age Homeric Greek. It is completely in the air. I am sure that a good puzzle solver could give an English or French reading (phonologically mangled by the syllabic nature of the script, as in Faucounau's text) with 11 acrophonical values if they set their mind to it. The statistical claim of a "billions to one" chance discussed above is completely void, because there are billions of billions of billions of combinatorial possibilities. dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
To Latinus : why should the opinion, which is the one of several eminent specialists like A.Evans for instance, be suppressed ? Just because it has been also supported by an author (J.F.) that several guys hate ???? Is this the WP spirit and respect of the WP rules ? Waiting for your answer, Sir. PS : And please, don't call me Rose-mary or anything else. This poor Rose-mary has been disgusted (her own words) by the way she has been attacked by a pack of wolves when she gave her opinion. ( 80.90.39.149 10:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC))
Your answer to my question is preposterous !.. Your statistics are 1)-biaised : One cannot compare Timm Phaistos with Proto-Ionian Theory Phaistos. If you want to make a fair comparison, you should have compared : -or Timm Phaistos with Faucounau Phaistos, of which the result is : Timm 200 - Faucounau 600 -or Linear A Phaistos with Proto-Ionian Phaistos, of which the result is also in favour of the Proto-Ionian Theory. 2)-meaningless. Applying your "statistical method", one will find that the Rjabchikov's attempt, which is supported by nobody but his inventor, is a lot more notable (your words) than the Achterberg's one, which has the support of many Deutch scholars.
I therefore repeat my question : What makes you say, Sir, that the 'Proto-Ionian Theory is a fringy one ? (User 80.90.57.154. 24 March , 9:10).
A. Evans: "That there is a general parallelism in appeareance between the signs on the Disk and those on the Cretan seal-stones is evident. So too they divide themselves into much the same categories, such as human and animal figures or their parts, arms and implements, domestic utensils and vegetable signs. But when we come to compare the figures in detail with those of the Minoan hieroglyhic signary a very great discrepancy is observable." Scripta Minoa p. 24
A. Evans: "The humean figures in their outline and costume are non-Minoan. We miss the pinched-in waist, and the female figure especially is marked by an extraordinary breadth of body." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "Still more divergent from all known examples of Minoan dress is that of the woman. It differs not only in its general broad outline, already noticed, but in almost every detail." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "The represantation of the ship also differs from all similar designs that occur either among the hieroglyphic or the linear documents of Crete." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "According to this view the Disk should rather be regarded as a record of a peaceful connection between the Minoan lords of Phaestos and some neighbouring race enjoying a parallel form of civilisation than as an evidence of hostile occupation. As to the direction in which this race is to be sought, the indications at our disposal may be thought to point to the Western coastlands of Asia Minor." Scripta Minoa p. 27 Kadmos 09:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
In order to put an end to the lies of
Latinius and others, who are trusting the foolish hypotheses, first launched by an insane person, I categorically state that J.Faucounau,
Rose-mary and myself are different persons, although we are all members (with some other scholars) of a Luxemburgischer Group (similar to the Dutch Alverna Group), created in the memory of Pierre Hamer, novelist and specialist of Crete. (User
80.90.57.154, 11:00, 24 March)
And why you don't give your name and your address yourself, Alexan,der ?.. (User 80.90.57.154, 15:09, 24 March 2006
The pack of wolves which hate the Proto-Ionic Solution is back ! Little piece by little piece, they are deleting important information about this solution. A sentence like : J.Faucounau has presented a reconstrucion of the movements of the scribe is, in their full of hatred eyes too dangerous to be kept : a good-faith reader could be interested by the matter ! What an horror ! -- a sentence like J.F. considers the disk's syllabic and acrophonic script to be a non-Minoan, Aegean invention, possibly inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs has to be deleted : it would be in accordance with Ipsen's justified remarks : the script cannot be Minoan, but cannot neither have been born from nothing. -- etc. So, I ask the question : why is the arbitrator, Mr D. Bachmann not reacting ? Is he so impressed by the ferocity of this pack of wolves that he has forgotten the WP spirit and its rule n° 1 : the respect of NPOV , so he applies only the 3RR rule to the lonely anon, what is again a betrayal of the WP spirit, because it favours a particular POV ? Curious to know your answers, Mr Bachmann... (User 80.90.57.154, 24 March 9:35
So, as you have not been convinced by J.F.'s arguments -what is your absolute right-, you will hinder others to make their own opinion by deleting, deleting, deleting any mention of any argument favourable to the Proto-Ionic Theory, right ? If this is your contribution to the WP Enclyclopedia, you should read again the basic rules ! (User 80.90.57.154, 16:27, March 24, 2006)
I'm not a mathematician, but I am not sure about generalized Markov Chains (whatever the meaning of this word is). But maybe I am wrong... (User 80.90.57.154, 16:30, March 24, 2006)
dab (ᛏ) 15:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Because he told me the whole story, and his shock when his Swiss lawyer told him who Mr Gnaedinger really was (He wrongly had thought that this troll was a Swiss scholar from the University of Zürich) (User 80.90.57.154 , 16:40, March 24, 2006)
Yes, indeed. Unbelievable, but true ! It's probably due to the fact that J.F. , being in his 80ies, is not familiar with Usenet and its trolls roaming all around. A Google Search on Gnaedinger would have alerted him... (User 80.90.57.154 16:56, March 24, 2006)
What is nonsense is that you talk about a file, Mr Bachmann, that you pretend not to know directly or have been involved in. Personally, I don't know the file in detail neither, but what I've been told is that 1)- the J.F.'s lawyer has won the case 2)- the judge has issued an official document recognizing the slander 3)- but, taking into account that Gnaedinger was practically on wellfare, J.F.'s lawyer has dropped a 5000 Swiss francs claim of compensation for the damage, so Gnaedinger's condemnation has been only symbolic. I don't know whether they are Court's fees in Switzerland when the suit doesn't go further than what you, Swiss, call (in French) the "comparution contradictoire devant le juge de paix pour établir la matérialité des faits". Maybe you know better than I do, but I can tell you that everything I mention is true. (If you wish, I can try to find the reference of the judgment, officially recognizing the slander and allowing the plaintiff to ask for compensation before another court). As for the motives of the slander, I don't believe they were only "calling kook" the plaintiff. As for your denial of not knowing Franz Gnaedinger, I wonder : he seems to be a well known character in Zürich, where you live, and on the other hand, you seem to be well aware of his hilarious suit with J.F. Third surprising indication, you are calling me Mr Faucounau, the same name as Franz Gnaedinger was calling "Grapheus". So, I really have very strong doubt about your denial... But I would understand pretty well that you would be embarrassed to have Franz Gnaedinger among your acquintances or friends, because he would kill your credibility... ( User 80.90.57.154, 20:06, March 24, 2006).
I'm curious to know whether you think a case can be made for formally encoding Phaistos in Unicode. Be specific yea or nay. Thanks Evertype 13:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
In order to progress in the search of a solution, I believe it is important to come back to the motive which has lead lastly to an editwar and to the blocking of the article. The dispute began on March 23, at 04H40, when Pmanderson took as a pretext a small modification for deleting at the same time a sentence, existting in the paragraph "Original invention or derivation". Here is the said sentence :
J.Faucounau favours a non-Cretan, Aegean, acrophonic writing, which would be an original invention, but possibly inspired by the Egyptian Hieroglyphic script..
One may wonder : what is so shocking in this sentence to justify a deletion, if not to favour the adverse POV, i.e. that the Disk's script could not be the original invention of an Aegean, but not Minoan people, and therefore that it has to be Minoan (or possibly Luwian). It's to be noticed that Dbachmann has accepted the first part of the sentence, but deleted "possibly inspired by the Egyptian Hieroglyphic script". This is equivalent to disparage the said solution, making it appear "as coming from nothing", what is obviously absurd. Because, as G.Ipsen remarked, such an evoluted script cannot have been invented out of nothing.
The only motive given for this deletion is that the J.F.'s name would be sufficiently mentioned in the article. Well, I would be glad if another author could have been quoted, concerning the attribution of the Disk's script to a non-Minoan, Cycladic people, in close relationship with Crete and Anatolia. Unhappily, there is none but Faure, but in his review of J.F.'s book, what brings us back to square one. This is why the motive given for the deletion cannot be accepted in my opinion, and why the deletion appears as just a pretext to favour one POV at the detriment of another. This is not respecting the WP spirit and NPOV rule. I hope to be followed by a majority on this point.
Another motive of the warring has been the deletion of the following sentence :
Jean Faucounau has proposed a reconstruction of the scribe's movements, which would also require an inward direction.
Here again, what is so shocking with this sentence ? The mention of the J.F.'s name, I suppose. But here again, J.F. has been the only one to care about such a reconstruction of the scribe's moves taking into account all the epigraphical facts. It's not my fault if the other scholars have almost totally neglected this way to reach the truth concerning the Reading Direction... For very good reasons : the would-be decipherers who wanted to read the text left-to-right have surely noticed that there was no possible reconstruction of the scribe's moves in accordance with their hypothesis. As for the others, why caring about such a problem, when they were following the general consensus ? So, the fact is that J.F. has been the only one to examine the problem. Find somebody else who has dealt with the scribe's moves problem, and I'll not object putting his name in place of J.F.'s. one. But I strongly object deleting a useful information to the WP reader. This is against the WP spirit. (User 80.90.57.154, 16:22, March 25, 2006)
In short, Rose-mary proposes to bore us further with speculations about our discreditable motives for not making this article into special pleading for Faucounau.
If any other material needs to be retrieved from archive, please do so. Septentrionalis 23:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
And, of course, you are, guys, the sole judges who will decide what has no place.
Well, what a surprise ! It's the discussion concerning the POV you don't like which is relegated in the Archive ! How ethical it is from you to relegate what could hurt the POV you like !.. Think about that : what would happen if some WP readers were convinced that your POV is wrong and the concurrent right ? What an horror !!! (User 80.90.57.154 ,23:01, 25 March 2006).
" Please do not feed the troll" |
Thanks to Latinus , the WP reader will not know that there is a theory; developped by a scholar X... (name censored for avoiding any accusation of publicity in his favour) in c. 40 papers and books, which defends the hypothesis that the Disk has been written by an Aegean, but non-Minoan people. What an horror for Mr Latinus if the WP reader knew that the Minoan Origin has a concurrent ! This is the NPOV concept, revised by Mr Latinus. (User 80.90.57.154 , 13:00 March 28, 2006
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
[moved to article]
unsure how to represent the rtl reading. Maybe we should mirror the glyphs after all, since rtl reading seems to be general consensus? At the moment I'm trying breaking the text into lines, but small browser windows will mess it up. dab (ᛏ) 11:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia should not be subjective. The fact is, that we don't know, if the disc represents language at all, or if it is calendrical, for instance. This 'Phaistos disc' article has lost its proportions by the latest months of attacks.
86.48.21.153 00:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Ole Hagen
You write: All interpretations as calendar are going back to Pomerance ...(quote over). I would say, that an astrolabium is somehow different from a calendar, never mind. Can you also tell me 'from whom then derives the notion, that the characters were letters or syllables?'. I still believe, that the overwhelming focus on particular interpretations is out of proportion.
An astrolabium is a star map, a picture of the constellations. Making long suppressing lists in columns of one, assigning own phonetic values to the ideographs, very cunning.Compared with an proportioned article like the one about The keepers of the Easter Island, this one is corrupted. I shall suggest that it is brought back to its earlier form.
I've finished my consideration. This Wikipedia article about the Phaistos disc ought to be brought back to its original stage, as it was two months ago.
Do these language tags serve any real purpose? Anyone who is not warned off an article with a clearly non-English title may not be warned by a tag eitherl and at least one of them was misplaced on Duhoux's article, which is of course in English, even though he's French. Septentrionalis 16:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
From the table of glyphs:
What's AB mean? Septentrionalis 16:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
There is clear consensus not to include more Faucounau in this article. If this editing against consensus continues, I propose to include less. Septentrionalis 19:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"If the PD script is not any other, it follows that it began in the Aegean". No ! It may be a non-script, or the script of the Atlantes, as advocated by some !.. Moreover, why developping in the WP article only two solutions for the origin of the script ? Why not citing the comparisons with the Chinese signs, which has also been advocated ?.. In fact, there are only three reasonable theories, which have attracted the attention of the specialists : the Luwian theory (Best/Woudhuizen/Achterberg) -- the Cretan theory (Torsten Timm) -- the Aegean original theory (J.Faucounau). All the other theories (e.g. A. Cuny's) have been dismissed by specialists as "very unlikely"( 80.90.39.72 20:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC))
I think we can agree that if we have to pick the three most notable recent approaches, they would be (a) comparison with Linear A, (b) comparison with hiero. Luwian and (c) Faucounau's puzzle. So I am not completely opposed to present more detail on what exactly JF proposes. Look at Atlantis: Their article became so overburdened with mad hypotheses that they branched out Location hypotheses of Atlantis. If Wikipedia can have Location_hypotheses_of_Atlantis#Finland, it can certainly also have Phaistos Disc decipherment claims#"Proto-Ionic", no problem. I would even like to see a comparative table of glyph assignments, and an evaluation of the quality of the Greek assembled by JF. So, Rose-mary, instead of vandalizing here, go ahead and edit Phaistos Disc decipherment claims. dab (ᛏ) 09:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
you are in blatant violation of 3RR again, Rose-mary, take a 24h break. Any edit from a 80.90.* IP for the next 24 hours should be rolled back; the IPs should just be blocked for a short period, however, since Rose-mary is known to redial on reconnect when banned, and we don't want to block half of Belgium. dab (ᛏ) 17:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This thesis has been advocated by several scholars because the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts are trite, unsignificant or farfetched. As these glyphs appear to belong to the Aegean area (cf Paul Muenzer, L.Godart, S.Dow., etc.), they see the disk's script as the original invention of an Aegean people. One of these scholars, J.Faucounau supposes this people to be a maritime one, the proto-Ionians, settled in the Cycladic Islands since c.2500BC, who borrowed the idea of a hieroglyphic acrophonic writing from Egypt during the VIth Dynasty.
This is now the second time that Dr Lukas Pietsch has deleted the paragraph I asked to add about the hypothesis that the PD script would be an "Aegean original script". What are Mr -sorry, Dr!- Pietsch's credentials to be an arbitrator in this field ? Dr Pietsch -the obscure author of a more obscure and confidential book on "Variable Grammars"-, is well-known in the Hamburg University for his extraordinary arrogance. Because he is the inventor of the German Extended Unicode Keyboard (a very minor achievement), he acts as if he was a universally recognized Professor-Doctor, giving HIS opinion on everything, NEVER discussing a matter (how could he do ? He generally is a perfect ignoramus in the fields he believes to be an expert), Such an incredible arrogance has led people on the NET to write PUBLIC APPRECIATIONS about him like the following one : (I quote) "Pietsch, you are just a little primitive hater of everything human and positive, a racist of the worst kind. Your letters are full of dirt. No regards" (Reference may be given on request). Personnally, I consider him as a liar and an ignoramus in the Phaistos Disk's matters. Should really this guy be the arbitrator in the Phaistos Disk's WP article ?... This seems to me the preliminary question for an honest discussion, able to keep the high reputation of the WP Encyclopedia ( 80.90.39.45 14:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC))
you thoroughly misunderstand Wikipedia. You do not need to be an expert on your field with your nose in the air and your own dogmatic convictions. That will hinder more than help you work with people. You want to write an article on the Phaistos disk as you see it, and sign it with your name, you are free to do that on geocities or anywhere else. On wikipedia, you are the troublemaker, obsessed with a single topic, refusing to get an account, refusing to listen to other opinions and beat out a compromise, and repeatedly violating policy and getting youself banned. Whatever your reputation in academia, you have no, or a rather bad, reputation here, and you do nothing to improve it. It doesn't matter what you think of Mr. Pietsch. He is not ranting against consensus, he is engaging in intelligent debate on many articles, and is defending the consensus version. If you do not lighten up to how things are done here, you will achieve nothing here. zilch. rien. You can just as welll drop it now and open your own website, ranting about how unfairly you were treated by the cabal ("pack of wolves") on that crappy upstart site Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 19:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I am now reverting your paragraph, because you say, in Wikipedia's voice, "the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts are trite, unsignificant or farfetched". What the hell? You are free to cite people's opinions. Preferably quote people other than Faucounau who are convinced that the script is "originally Aegaean". Some comparisons are farfetched. Others aren't. Faucounau's theories are extremely farfetched, why, he has to rewrite half the Bronze Age history to justify his solution. By all means, give precise citations (not just "Paul Muenzer, L.Godart, S.Dow., etc.", what's "etc."?) and we can have a "Agaean origin of the glyphs" section. But don't use Wikipedia's voice to give us more Faucounauisms. You are bright enough to know what you are doing, I estimate, so don't play stupid and play fair. If you don't, I won't waste 'verbose' explanations on you again, reverts are cheap. dab (ᛏ) 19:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
User 80.90.39.45 has cited Ipsen, Schwartz and others in favour of his thesis about an "original invention of an Aegean people". But see yourself:
G. Ipsen: „Es liegt nahe, diesen Widerspruch dadurch zu beseitigen, daß man dem Diskus fremde Herkunft zuschreibt. [...] doch den Bereich der Ägäis darf man nicht verlassen. Dann aber wird der Widerspruch durch die Bestimmung der Herkunft nicht erledigt, denn die Linearschrift ist gemeinägäisch. Die Frage des Diskus muß also innerhalb der ägäischen Welt bereinigt werden“ [Ipsen 1929: 15].
„Der unvermittelte Zwiespalt zwischen dem Bildsinn und der Sprachbedeutung dieser Schrift beweist, daß ihre Ausbildung von anderen Schriften abhängt. Die Schrift des Diskus von Phaistos ist eine a b h ä n g i g e E r f i n d u n g, die Bekanntschaft mit fremden, bestehenden Schriften voraussetzt“ [Ipsen 1929: 11, Hervorhebung im Original].
„Die Schriftgeschichte kennt eine vollkommene Parallele aus derselben Epoche, die hethitische Bilderschrift. Sie ist unter denselben Einflüssen ähnlich zustande gekommen: auch sie (wenigstens später) eine Silben Bilderschrift, von kleinasiatischer Erscheinung, im Aussehen den ägyptischen Hieroglyphen nachgebildet, im Silbenwert den Zeichen der Keilschrift folgend. Und wie die Bilderschrift des Diskus unvermittelt neben der Linearschrift steht, so die hethitischen Hieroglyphen neben der gleichzeitigen hethitischen Keilschrift“ [Ipsen 1929: 17].
In the same way B. Schwartz wrote: "It does mean that a genetic relationship exists between the writing of the disk and that of the linear scripts." [Schwartz 1956: 108].
To cite this scholars together with the Faucounau thesis that "the comparisons of the disk's glyphs with signs of other already known scripts to be too few" is against there true words.
To say things like "that the script would be identical." is only funny. It's obviously that both scripts are not identical. All I have done in my eyes is to demonstrate that the statistics of similar shaped signs in both scripts fits to good to deny a relation between both scripts.
Additionally there is no doubt that Crete is part of the Aegean Sea! There are only a few theses about an origin outside the Aegean Sea. A sentence that the Phaistos disc is at least of Aegean origin should be enough. Ttimm 17:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
So, you make no difference between "influenced" and "genetically related", or, to take an example, between what G. Ipsen wrote about a possible influence of Hittite Cuneiform on Hieroglyphic Hittite on one hand, and between the genetical relationship between Linear A and Linear B ?.. I think your hatred against the J.F.'s work makes you blind or stupid... Sorry to have to say that ! ( 80.90.39.79 20:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC))
User 80.90.xxx: now you have really gone too far. Lukas Pietsch and other editors on this page have been extremely patient with your persistent POV-pushing.
By know, you should know the rules of WP well: in controversial areas, first establish consensus on the Talk page (which you have been unable to do); and only then add to the main page and do not engage in edit wars; especially in disputed or difficult areas, be careful to cite reputable authorities rather than to express your own opinions ("comparisons... are trite"); and, most fundamentally, behave respectfully and politely. Your failure to respect the first two rules is bad enough. But now you are attacking Lukas Pietsch, a serious and fair editor, in the most offensive terms. As for the usenet quote, I looked it up, and it is just as bizarre as your attack here; it is by a user (transam) with no particular reputation, and appears completely out of the blue. (Not to mention that it has some curious stylistic similarities to your writing.)
Anyway, Pietsch is in no way an "arbitrator" on this article, it is just that he has taken the brunt of maintaining WP quality standards in the face of your assaults on them. Threatening to write nasty letters to his University is contemptible (and arguably violates the spirit of WP rules against legal threats), though I must say I don't see that it would have any particular effect. As a graduate student, I was once asked to reply to crank correspondence and compose polite responses to it, so I can predict that his university will nicely reply: "We appreciate the time you have taken to write us. Thank you for your comments about Dr. Pietsch. Your comments will be given all due weight in our ongoing efforts to maintain the high standards for which our institution is known."
You should realize by now that several editors on WP understand your games and will not tolerate your continued abuse of our patience. -- Macrakis 20:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
My "main reproach" is not that particular questionable edit. It is your intemperate attitude and language. WP is a cooperative endeavor, and you are not cooperating. -- Macrakis 21:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
80.90.39.45 wrote "I would like to know why the PD sign n° 01 (and not the sign n° 39, which would be more logical) is linked by T.Timm to the Linear A/B sign RE". Such a link is not given at my article or homepage. The only source is chapter 11 "Annäherung an die Bestimmung von Silbenwerten" in Timm 2005 where also the explantion can be found. But before you can start reading chapter 11 you have to read chapter 4, 8, 9 and 10. Chapter 11 is based on the results given there. And dont miss the sentence "Zusammenfassend sei betont, dass die Silbenzuordnungen für D 01 und D 08 als wenig gesicherte Hypothesen betrachtet werden müssen. Die zu den betreffenden Lautwerten führenden Überlegungen sind zwar in sich schlüssig, die Gesamtheit der ihnen zugrunde liegenden Hinweise erscheint für eine sichere Aussage jedoch als nicht ausreichend." [Timm 2005: 175]. Ttimm 18:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Some portions of the following may be worth including on their merits:
Septentrionalis 23:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
OK. I made the addition. But I wonder about the reasons behind the hatred you have, you guys, to mention J.Faucounau's work... Seems pretty strange to me... ( 80.90.39.79 08:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC))
[Also: Dejeuner sur l'Herbe, with caption: Jean Faucounau's Proto-Ionian Decipherment is stirring a revolution in intellectual circles everywhere. Here, young Parisians in a park just outside Paris gather to discuss the latest developments. Image removed under fair use.]
without sign comparison, there can be "decipherments" in any language at all. This comparison may either be with a known glyph, or with a word in the target language by the acrophonic principle. So to compare the merits of comparative appui of our three best-documented attempts:
dab (ᛏ) 09:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Timm's and Best&al.'s approaches are thus grounded with similar firmness in comparison with known contemporary literacy. Best&al. have of course the advantage of giving a coherent text, but I would not consider this decipherment verified until and unless it opens the road to further decipherment of Linear A or Cretan hieroglyphic inscriptions, or at least a sensible reading of the Arkalochori Axe (on which the authors remain conspicuously silent). Faucounau's reading is founded on comparative evidence only about half as good, and furthermore comparison with Iron Age Homeric Greek. It is completely in the air. I am sure that a good puzzle solver could give an English or French reading (phonologically mangled by the syllabic nature of the script, as in Faucounau's text) with 11 acrophonical values if they set their mind to it. The statistical claim of a "billions to one" chance discussed above is completely void, because there are billions of billions of billions of combinatorial possibilities. dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
To Latinus : why should the opinion, which is the one of several eminent specialists like A.Evans for instance, be suppressed ? Just because it has been also supported by an author (J.F.) that several guys hate ???? Is this the WP spirit and respect of the WP rules ? Waiting for your answer, Sir. PS : And please, don't call me Rose-mary or anything else. This poor Rose-mary has been disgusted (her own words) by the way she has been attacked by a pack of wolves when she gave her opinion. ( 80.90.39.149 10:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC))
Your answer to my question is preposterous !.. Your statistics are 1)-biaised : One cannot compare Timm Phaistos with Proto-Ionian Theory Phaistos. If you want to make a fair comparison, you should have compared : -or Timm Phaistos with Faucounau Phaistos, of which the result is : Timm 200 - Faucounau 600 -or Linear A Phaistos with Proto-Ionian Phaistos, of which the result is also in favour of the Proto-Ionian Theory. 2)-meaningless. Applying your "statistical method", one will find that the Rjabchikov's attempt, which is supported by nobody but his inventor, is a lot more notable (your words) than the Achterberg's one, which has the support of many Deutch scholars.
I therefore repeat my question : What makes you say, Sir, that the 'Proto-Ionian Theory is a fringy one ? (User 80.90.57.154. 24 March , 9:10).
A. Evans: "That there is a general parallelism in appeareance between the signs on the Disk and those on the Cretan seal-stones is evident. So too they divide themselves into much the same categories, such as human and animal figures or their parts, arms and implements, domestic utensils and vegetable signs. But when we come to compare the figures in detail with those of the Minoan hieroglyhic signary a very great discrepancy is observable." Scripta Minoa p. 24
A. Evans: "The humean figures in their outline and costume are non-Minoan. We miss the pinched-in waist, and the female figure especially is marked by an extraordinary breadth of body." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "Still more divergent from all known examples of Minoan dress is that of the woman. It differs not only in its general broad outline, already noticed, but in almost every detail." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "The represantation of the ship also differs from all similar designs that occur either among the hieroglyphic or the linear documents of Crete." Scripta Minoa p. 25
A. Evans: "According to this view the Disk should rather be regarded as a record of a peaceful connection between the Minoan lords of Phaestos and some neighbouring race enjoying a parallel form of civilisation than as an evidence of hostile occupation. As to the direction in which this race is to be sought, the indications at our disposal may be thought to point to the Western coastlands of Asia Minor." Scripta Minoa p. 27 Kadmos 09:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
In order to put an end to the lies of
Latinius and others, who are trusting the foolish hypotheses, first launched by an insane person, I categorically state that J.Faucounau,
Rose-mary and myself are different persons, although we are all members (with some other scholars) of a Luxemburgischer Group (similar to the Dutch Alverna Group), created in the memory of Pierre Hamer, novelist and specialist of Crete. (User
80.90.57.154, 11:00, 24 March)
And why you don't give your name and your address yourself, Alexan,der ?.. (User 80.90.57.154, 15:09, 24 March 2006
The pack of wolves which hate the Proto-Ionic Solution is back ! Little piece by little piece, they are deleting important information about this solution. A sentence like : J.Faucounau has presented a reconstrucion of the movements of the scribe is, in their full of hatred eyes too dangerous to be kept : a good-faith reader could be interested by the matter ! What an horror ! -- a sentence like J.F. considers the disk's syllabic and acrophonic script to be a non-Minoan, Aegean invention, possibly inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs has to be deleted : it would be in accordance with Ipsen's justified remarks : the script cannot be Minoan, but cannot neither have been born from nothing. -- etc. So, I ask the question : why is the arbitrator, Mr D. Bachmann not reacting ? Is he so impressed by the ferocity of this pack of wolves that he has forgotten the WP spirit and its rule n° 1 : the respect of NPOV , so he applies only the 3RR rule to the lonely anon, what is again a betrayal of the WP spirit, because it favours a particular POV ? Curious to know your answers, Mr Bachmann... (User 80.90.57.154, 24 March 9:35
So, as you have not been convinced by J.F.'s arguments -what is your absolute right-, you will hinder others to make their own opinion by deleting, deleting, deleting any mention of any argument favourable to the Proto-Ionic Theory, right ? If this is your contribution to the WP Enclyclopedia, you should read again the basic rules ! (User 80.90.57.154, 16:27, March 24, 2006)
I'm not a mathematician, but I am not sure about generalized Markov Chains (whatever the meaning of this word is). But maybe I am wrong... (User 80.90.57.154, 16:30, March 24, 2006)
dab (ᛏ) 15:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Because he told me the whole story, and his shock when his Swiss lawyer told him who Mr Gnaedinger really was (He wrongly had thought that this troll was a Swiss scholar from the University of Zürich) (User 80.90.57.154 , 16:40, March 24, 2006)
Yes, indeed. Unbelievable, but true ! It's probably due to the fact that J.F. , being in his 80ies, is not familiar with Usenet and its trolls roaming all around. A Google Search on Gnaedinger would have alerted him... (User 80.90.57.154 16:56, March 24, 2006)
What is nonsense is that you talk about a file, Mr Bachmann, that you pretend not to know directly or have been involved in. Personally, I don't know the file in detail neither, but what I've been told is that 1)- the J.F.'s lawyer has won the case 2)- the judge has issued an official document recognizing the slander 3)- but, taking into account that Gnaedinger was practically on wellfare, J.F.'s lawyer has dropped a 5000 Swiss francs claim of compensation for the damage, so Gnaedinger's condemnation has been only symbolic. I don't know whether they are Court's fees in Switzerland when the suit doesn't go further than what you, Swiss, call (in French) the "comparution contradictoire devant le juge de paix pour établir la matérialité des faits". Maybe you know better than I do, but I can tell you that everything I mention is true. (If you wish, I can try to find the reference of the judgment, officially recognizing the slander and allowing the plaintiff to ask for compensation before another court). As for the motives of the slander, I don't believe they were only "calling kook" the plaintiff. As for your denial of not knowing Franz Gnaedinger, I wonder : he seems to be a well known character in Zürich, where you live, and on the other hand, you seem to be well aware of his hilarious suit with J.F. Third surprising indication, you are calling me Mr Faucounau, the same name as Franz Gnaedinger was calling "Grapheus". So, I really have very strong doubt about your denial... But I would understand pretty well that you would be embarrassed to have Franz Gnaedinger among your acquintances or friends, because he would kill your credibility... ( User 80.90.57.154, 20:06, March 24, 2006).
I'm curious to know whether you think a case can be made for formally encoding Phaistos in Unicode. Be specific yea or nay. Thanks Evertype 13:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
In order to progress in the search of a solution, I believe it is important to come back to the motive which has lead lastly to an editwar and to the blocking of the article. The dispute began on March 23, at 04H40, when Pmanderson took as a pretext a small modification for deleting at the same time a sentence, existting in the paragraph "Original invention or derivation". Here is the said sentence :
J.Faucounau favours a non-Cretan, Aegean, acrophonic writing, which would be an original invention, but possibly inspired by the Egyptian Hieroglyphic script..
One may wonder : what is so shocking in this sentence to justify a deletion, if not to favour the adverse POV, i.e. that the Disk's script could not be the original invention of an Aegean, but not Minoan people, and therefore that it has to be Minoan (or possibly Luwian). It's to be noticed that Dbachmann has accepted the first part of the sentence, but deleted "possibly inspired by the Egyptian Hieroglyphic script". This is equivalent to disparage the said solution, making it appear "as coming from nothing", what is obviously absurd. Because, as G.Ipsen remarked, such an evoluted script cannot have been invented out of nothing.
The only motive given for this deletion is that the J.F.'s name would be sufficiently mentioned in the article. Well, I would be glad if another author could have been quoted, concerning the attribution of the Disk's script to a non-Minoan, Cycladic people, in close relationship with Crete and Anatolia. Unhappily, there is none but Faure, but in his review of J.F.'s book, what brings us back to square one. This is why the motive given for the deletion cannot be accepted in my opinion, and why the deletion appears as just a pretext to favour one POV at the detriment of another. This is not respecting the WP spirit and NPOV rule. I hope to be followed by a majority on this point.
Another motive of the warring has been the deletion of the following sentence :
Jean Faucounau has proposed a reconstruction of the scribe's movements, which would also require an inward direction.
Here again, what is so shocking with this sentence ? The mention of the J.F.'s name, I suppose. But here again, J.F. has been the only one to care about such a reconstruction of the scribe's moves taking into account all the epigraphical facts. It's not my fault if the other scholars have almost totally neglected this way to reach the truth concerning the Reading Direction... For very good reasons : the would-be decipherers who wanted to read the text left-to-right have surely noticed that there was no possible reconstruction of the scribe's moves in accordance with their hypothesis. As for the others, why caring about such a problem, when they were following the general consensus ? So, the fact is that J.F. has been the only one to examine the problem. Find somebody else who has dealt with the scribe's moves problem, and I'll not object putting his name in place of J.F.'s. one. But I strongly object deleting a useful information to the WP reader. This is against the WP spirit. (User 80.90.57.154, 16:22, March 25, 2006)
In short, Rose-mary proposes to bore us further with speculations about our discreditable motives for not making this article into special pleading for Faucounau.
If any other material needs to be retrieved from archive, please do so. Septentrionalis 23:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
And, of course, you are, guys, the sole judges who will decide what has no place.
Well, what a surprise ! It's the discussion concerning the POV you don't like which is relegated in the Archive ! How ethical it is from you to relegate what could hurt the POV you like !.. Think about that : what would happen if some WP readers were convinced that your POV is wrong and the concurrent right ? What an horror !!! (User 80.90.57.154 ,23:01, 25 March 2006).
" Please do not feed the troll" |
Thanks to Latinus , the WP reader will not know that there is a theory; developped by a scholar X... (name censored for avoiding any accusation of publicity in his favour) in c. 40 papers and books, which defends the hypothesis that the Disk has been written by an Aegean, but non-Minoan people. What an horror for Mr Latinus if the WP reader knew that the Minoan Origin has a concurrent ! This is the NPOV concept, revised by Mr Latinus. (User 80.90.57.154 , 13:00 March 28, 2006
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