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![]() | A fact from Petros Lantzas appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 4 September 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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It would be nice if users could explain on the talk pages what they think is fringe about the reliable source prior to removing it. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 01:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Xhufi Supports an Albanian origin for them and he is a reliable. He does not cite Lamansky as a suggestion, but as further proof of his assertion. Alexikuoa did not use the citation correctly. Durraz0 ( talk) 15:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@
Alexikoua: You can't remove contemporary bibliography which specifically discusses a subject and claim "BRD" after other editors oppose the removal. @
Durraz0: added a full quote which reads Kalimi i Lanzave në Korfuz ka ndodhur, si edhe për shumë krerë feudalë shqiptarë, gjatë periudhës së pushtimit osman. Megjithatë, bie në sy fakti se Lanza ynë, i cili, edhe nëse nuk kishte lindur, me siguri duhet të kishte dekata që jetonte në Korfuz, nuk identifikohet si korfiotët e tjerë me përcaktorin "vendas" e aq më pak "grek". Nuk indentifikohet, vërtet, as si "shqiptar", siç për shëmbull, cilësohej më 1596 një tjetër fisnik korfiot me origjinë nga Himara (capitan Candido Albanese)
= (translation) The passage of the Lanza to Corfu took place, as well as that of many other Albanian feudal lords, during the period of Ottoman occupation. However, it is striking that our Lanza, who, even if he had not been born, must have had decades living in Corfu, is not identified like other Corfiots with as a "native" or a "Greek". He is also not identified as an "Albanian", as is in 1596 another Corfiot nobleman originally from Himara (Captain Candido Albanese). --
Maleschreiber (
talk)
00:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Gjithsesi, certifikatën e tij të garancise e plotësonte një "shënim biografik", ku thuhet se Lanza ishte i biri i djalit jashtë martese të një ushtaraku të lartë venecian, i Kapitenit të Përgjithshëm, Benedetto da Pesaro.= However, his warranty certificate was accompanied by a "biographical note" stating that Lanza was the the illegitimate son of a senior Venetian military commander, Captain General Benedetto da Pesaro.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
(unindent) Looking more into this, the more I am convinced that it falls within WP:FRINGE. First, it is contradicted by mainstream sources that state the Lanzas were of western origin. Second, Lanza is a common Italian name. Third, Pellumb Xhufi is controversial, he is on record saying the Tepelenë Internment Camp of the Hoxha regime was not really a concentration camp, despite the deaths of hundreds of people. He has been extensively criticized by Albanian historians for allegedly falsifying sources. This can easily be seen in the sq.wiki article [1]. We can't have sources lie this in an encyclopedia, much less in wikipedia voice. As for Vladimir Lamansky, who is he? I've never heard of him. Can someon verify LAmansky actuslly wrote something like this and provide the quote? Why can't we quote Lamansky directly if that's the case, instead of relying on Xhufi? Khirurg ( talk) 05:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Himarrë native Pietro Lanza, who was suspected of collaboration with the Spanish and of organizing a major revolt against the OttomansReturning Home to Rome: The Basilian Monks of Grottaferrata in Albania. Xhufi (2016) published in Albanian is a 2016 paper in Studime Historike. It's the oldest and most reputable Albanian journal, published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. If someone wants to go to RSN, we can discuss the paper there but the question would be whether Studime Historike is a reliable source. I think that it'll be very hard for someone to argue that it's not a reliable publication. Side comment: The point is not to prove that he "belonged" to this or that ethnicity, but to highlight that no such unambiguous classification existed for many people who came from contact areas of multiethnic empires. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Asonitis, Spiros (1998).
The regimen Corphoy and the Albanians: As we saw, in 1394 the peril of an impending Turkish assault against Buthroton and Argyrokastron had dictated the co-operation of the Albanian lords of the region with the administration of Corfu for the fortification of Examilion. (..) lohana Silvestrocataro (sic) promisit dare bonam subventionem et similiter habere sperat a comité Lanca et fortasse ab alii
I think that this family split into two branches after migration from Albania: one in Corfu and the other in southern Italy.
Domenico Lanza, of Arberesh origin, who wrote Ancora su gli Albanesi in Calabria Capitolazioni stipulate negli anni 1490 e 1510 fra il Vescovo di Cassano e gli Albanesi must have been from the Italian branch.--
Maleschreiber (
talk)
16:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
The surname should be Lantza. Out of the English the sources in the article:
Çerçok ( talk) 06:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
There is one source (based on the local arhives of Corfu), that states that Lantzas' family originated from western Europe. On the other hand there is another one, that claims something different. There is a clear disagreement between the two. The reader obviously needs to understand who claims each version. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:21, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Xhufi is talking about ethnicity, there was no Albanian state in the 16th century and there were Albanian communities in western Europe back then. Where is the contradiction? Ahmet Q. ( talk) 22:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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|
![]() | A fact from Petros Lantzas appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 4 September 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
It would be nice if users could explain on the talk pages what they think is fringe about the reliable source prior to removing it. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 01:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Xhufi Supports an Albanian origin for them and he is a reliable. He does not cite Lamansky as a suggestion, but as further proof of his assertion. Alexikuoa did not use the citation correctly. Durraz0 ( talk) 15:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
@
Alexikoua: You can't remove contemporary bibliography which specifically discusses a subject and claim "BRD" after other editors oppose the removal. @
Durraz0: added a full quote which reads Kalimi i Lanzave në Korfuz ka ndodhur, si edhe për shumë krerë feudalë shqiptarë, gjatë periudhës së pushtimit osman. Megjithatë, bie në sy fakti se Lanza ynë, i cili, edhe nëse nuk kishte lindur, me siguri duhet të kishte dekata që jetonte në Korfuz, nuk identifikohet si korfiotët e tjerë me përcaktorin "vendas" e aq më pak "grek". Nuk indentifikohet, vërtet, as si "shqiptar", siç për shëmbull, cilësohej më 1596 një tjetër fisnik korfiot me origjinë nga Himara (capitan Candido Albanese)
= (translation) The passage of the Lanza to Corfu took place, as well as that of many other Albanian feudal lords, during the period of Ottoman occupation. However, it is striking that our Lanza, who, even if he had not been born, must have had decades living in Corfu, is not identified like other Corfiots with as a "native" or a "Greek". He is also not identified as an "Albanian", as is in 1596 another Corfiot nobleman originally from Himara (Captain Candido Albanese). --
Maleschreiber (
talk)
00:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Gjithsesi, certifikatën e tij të garancise e plotësonte një "shënim biografik", ku thuhet se Lanza ishte i biri i djalit jashtë martese të një ushtaraku të lartë venecian, i Kapitenit të Përgjithshëm, Benedetto da Pesaro.= However, his warranty certificate was accompanied by a "biographical note" stating that Lanza was the the illegitimate son of a senior Venetian military commander, Captain General Benedetto da Pesaro.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
(unindent) Looking more into this, the more I am convinced that it falls within WP:FRINGE. First, it is contradicted by mainstream sources that state the Lanzas were of western origin. Second, Lanza is a common Italian name. Third, Pellumb Xhufi is controversial, he is on record saying the Tepelenë Internment Camp of the Hoxha regime was not really a concentration camp, despite the deaths of hundreds of people. He has been extensively criticized by Albanian historians for allegedly falsifying sources. This can easily be seen in the sq.wiki article [1]. We can't have sources lie this in an encyclopedia, much less in wikipedia voice. As for Vladimir Lamansky, who is he? I've never heard of him. Can someon verify LAmansky actuslly wrote something like this and provide the quote? Why can't we quote Lamansky directly if that's the case, instead of relying on Xhufi? Khirurg ( talk) 05:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Himarrë native Pietro Lanza, who was suspected of collaboration with the Spanish and of organizing a major revolt against the OttomansReturning Home to Rome: The Basilian Monks of Grottaferrata in Albania. Xhufi (2016) published in Albanian is a 2016 paper in Studime Historike. It's the oldest and most reputable Albanian journal, published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. If someone wants to go to RSN, we can discuss the paper there but the question would be whether Studime Historike is a reliable source. I think that it'll be very hard for someone to argue that it's not a reliable publication. Side comment: The point is not to prove that he "belonged" to this or that ethnicity, but to highlight that no such unambiguous classification existed for many people who came from contact areas of multiethnic empires. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Asonitis, Spiros (1998).
The regimen Corphoy and the Albanians: As we saw, in 1394 the peril of an impending Turkish assault against Buthroton and Argyrokastron had dictated the co-operation of the Albanian lords of the region with the administration of Corfu for the fortification of Examilion. (..) lohana Silvestrocataro (sic) promisit dare bonam subventionem et similiter habere sperat a comité Lanca et fortasse ab alii
I think that this family split into two branches after migration from Albania: one in Corfu and the other in southern Italy.
Domenico Lanza, of Arberesh origin, who wrote Ancora su gli Albanesi in Calabria Capitolazioni stipulate negli anni 1490 e 1510 fra il Vescovo di Cassano e gli Albanesi must have been from the Italian branch.--
Maleschreiber (
talk)
16:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
The surname should be Lantza. Out of the English the sources in the article:
Çerçok ( talk) 06:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
There is one source (based on the local arhives of Corfu), that states that Lantzas' family originated from western Europe. On the other hand there is another one, that claims something different. There is a clear disagreement between the two. The reader obviously needs to understand who claims each version. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:21, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Xhufi is talking about ethnicity, there was no Albanian state in the 16th century and there were Albanian communities in western Europe back then. Where is the contradiction? Ahmet Q. ( talk) 22:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC)