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you might want to incorperate into the article that a widely avalible brand of matchsticks in denmark is named "Tordenskjold" and features a painting of him on the front. the matches are, ironicaly, made by a swedish company.
Edited Tordenskjolds nationality from 'Danish-Norwegian' to Norwegian. In order to be 'Danish-Norwegian' one parent had to be from Denmark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Arnold is Austrian-/american because he is an american citizen by choice. Peter wessel was simply a Norwegian serving in the Danish navy. Norwegian wikipedia describes him as a Norwegian officer serving in the Danish navy. This is a more correct description as its based on facts not nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 12:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
What? He was born and raised in Norway. You are blatanlty POV and nationalistic. Even Danish wiki confirm that he was born in Trondheim http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wessel_Tordenskiold The reason why Danish wiki says hes 'Danish-Norwegian' is because hes the greatest hero in the history on Denmark-Norway. And you nationalistic Danes cant handle the fact that youre greatest hero is fullblood Norwegian. Stop being an POV idiot.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Third Opinion: After reviewing material in my home edition of Britannica, and doing a Google search on the topic, my conclusion is clear. Tordenskjold was born in Trondhjem, Norway, which makes him Norwegian. This, however is not where it ends.
Let's back up and look at this objectively, so you can both see my point of view. I was born and raised in the USA. If I decide to run off to Denmark, am I still an American? I would surely say so. Would I be Danish-American? No. Would my children, if born in Denmark to me, their American father, and a Danish woman, be considered Danish-American? Yes, you could say so. If I swore allegiance to Denmark, and became a citizen, I would then say I am Danish or Danish-American.
Simply moving to another country, in my opinion, does not change ones nationality. The question you must ask is: Did Tordenskjold swear allegiance to Denmark and/or become a citizen? Obviously so, as he fought for their Navy. It is quite difficult to fight for the military of another nation, successfully I might add, without valuing that country.
Therefore, my third opinion, which you may take with whatever grain-of-salt you so desire is: Peder Tordenskjold was Norwegian by birth, but Danish-Norwegian through most of his life. I think it is fair to list him as Danish-Norwegian in any reference/articles about him.
Jsmykal 17:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
There were no 'Norwegian navy' as already mentioned, only the Danish so in fact he was kind of loaned. JGC, the vast majority of Norwegians (and historians) see the union as a disaster for the Kingdom of Norway. Ibsen our most famous writer refers to it as the '400 year night'. It delt a severe blow to Norwegian culture and language, and Norwegian state goods as well as silver mines were emptied to finance Danish wars across the continet as well as building palaces in Copenhagen. as a result of Dane wars, Norway lost Jamtland, Bohuslån, Herjedalen, Iceland, The Faroese Island and Greenland. I have encountered many danes who seam to have a very innocent view of the union, and to Norwegians that view can be quite offensive. Nastykermit 08:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The time has come to end this confused discussion. The confusion stems from the failure by most contributors to distinguish between the terms nationality and citizenship. At the time of Tordenskjold, Denmark-Norway was one state consisting of two kingdoms, two duchies and some other territories in a personal and legislative union. But Denmark and Norway were considered two kingdoms, not one. The royal title was always "King of Denmark and Norway etc." The former state now usually called Denmark-Norway, or in both languages "helstaten", was at that time often referred to as Denmark for short, but on formal occasions called "tvillingrigerne" — "the twin realms". Except for a few separate Norwegian institutions, the state was closely integrated. It had one common state church and one navy. The state may best be compared to the United Kingdom of Great Britain" established in 1707 as a legislative union between the former kingdoms of England and Scotland.
The subjects of the king of Denmark-Norway would in today's terms be citizens of that consolidated state, much as natives of Great Britain are citizens of the United Kingdom, not of England or Scotland. But in terms of nationality, most citizens of the United Kingdom consider themselves to be Englishmen or Scots, respectively, in spite of efforts to construct a common British identity. Sean Connery may tolerate being called British, but certainly not English.
Similarly, the citizens of Denmark-Norway considered themselves to be of Danish or Norwegian nationality, as has been well documented by the eminent historian Øystein Rian, referred to by Inge above. They did not have recourse to a common term similar to "British" as a way out. For that reason, and because the legal status of the united kingdoms was not well known, foreigners often called all Dano-Norwegian citizens "Danish", just as Continental Europeans often spoke (and some still speak) of "England" when they meant (or mean) the United Kingdom. The situation of Norwegian nationals during the time of Tordenskjold was probably much the same as that of Scots in the present United Kingdom. Am I right in stating that they will usually resent being called English? There is evidence to support the assumption that not only Tordenskjold but most of his countrymen preferred to be called Norwegians, and resented to be called Danish.
That sense of belonging to a separate nation did not prevent Tordenskjold and the majority of sailors in the common Dano-Norwegian navy who were Norwegian nationals to consider themselves loyal subjects of their king — the king of Norway, who happened also to be the king of Denmark.
The crucial point here is to distinguish between nationality and citizenship. A look at the article on Scotland is recommended as an aid to discerning the difference between the concepts. If that distinction is considered, may we conclude that Tordenskjold was a Norwegian naval officer of the Dano-Norwegian navy in the service of the king of Denmark-Norway? Roede ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a Dano-Norwegian idiom originating from a cunning stratagem applied by Tordenskjold at the battle of Marstrand. We should have it mentioned in the article and also a separate article on it. __ meco ( talk)
During my recent overhaul of the article, I have excluded some snippets of information that I could not find any sources for/were unsupported by the sources I employed:
Please provide a source, when/if reinstating these details. Poulsen ( talk) 09:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the part about Tordenskiolds death:
This description is from a uccesful danish play from 1993 about Tordenskiold - it is a figment of the playwrites immagination and has nothing to do with history (at least it is'nt backed by any record).
The title of this article should be Peter Tordenskiold. This was his name.
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 07:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move after many weeks Kotniski ( talk) 09:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Peter Tordenskjold → Peter Wessel Tordenskiold —I suggest that Peter Tordenskiold hereby gets the standard variant of his name. Please view the discussion page, the section Tordenskjold = Tordenskiold. Aaemn784 ( talk) 12:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I would like to provide the following documentation, which confirms the customs for orthographical standardisation as established by the Norwegian Language Council:
The Norwegian Language Council: Historical names - Rules
Quotation: «Norske navn etter 1700 skrives etter samtidsskrivemåten.»
Translation thereof: «Norwegian names after 1700 are written in accordance with the temporal spelling.»
The name Tordenskiold was granted in 1716 (first grant) and 1761 (second grant).
This documentation is intended solely to attest my allegations and not e.g. to surpass English Wikipedia's regulations. However, it is probably wise to follow the Language Council, which is among the supreme lingual authorities concering the Norwegian language.
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 13:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Reading that Tordenskiold is mentioned in both the Danish and Norwegian anthem, I read the lyrics of the Danish anthem Der er et yndigt land and (both the modern, shorter, and original lyrics) and, as suspected, I found no trace of him there. I have therefor rewritten the sentence 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero, and he is featured in the national anthems of both countries.' to 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero.' If anyone finds that he is in fact mentioned in the Norwegian anthem, fell free to add it. FrederikHertzum ( talk) 23:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi. It should not involve big efforts quickly to get confirmed that Norway's national anthem includes Tordenskiold's name. He is mentioned in the third verse:
Tordenskiold langs kysten lynte
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 00:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
It is said above that: "Most Norwegians have ordinary names, like patronymica and names deriving from farm names, and they are therefore unfortunately unable to understand aristocratic names. It is too alien for them. They consider a name like Tordenskiold like some kind of fantasy name, almost like it were just for fun."
A quick reply: "Tordenskiold" is not a typical aristocratic name in Denmark or Norway. The most prominent/ancient aristocratic Danish/Norwegian families have names which are down to earth and often not very different from other names derived from agricultural properties. One's of Denmark-Norway's crème de la crème noble families is the Danish family Kaas, a family which has been part of the high nobility since time immemorial and with almost a millennium of recorded history. Similar names with the same meaning (e.g. Kaasa) were/are also quite common among ordinary peasants in Norway and their descendants. Pompous names like "Tordenskiold" are typical of the "letter nobility" of the more recent era (=18th century), often the nouveau riche, and always indicate that the family is not among the "real" nobility, or higher nobility, dating centuries back. The original/older noble families never have such names. Tordenskiold is indeed a kind of fantasy name, almost ridiculous in its pompousness, also compared to the names of most noble families. There is only a handful of families in Denmark/Norway with such names, all of them part of the "letter nobility" of the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sporrevig ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Tordenskjold is a common name referring to this person. However, people have always used Tordenskjold alone, and not his complete name, as a common name. Peter Tordenskjold or Peter Wessel Tordenskjold are thus not common names. The Wikipedia common name rule does not apply to the complete name.
Examples of common names are Bokken Lasson instead of Caroline Lasson, Wenche Foss instead of Eva Wenche Steenfeldt-Foss Stang, and Vinni instead of Øyvind Sauvik. Peter Tordenskiold's common name is Tordenskiold/Tordenskjold, regardless of the name's spelling. One is misusing the common name rule to discredit one of the two standard spellings of Peter Tordenskiold's common name. (A spelling that is not standard for Peter Tordenskiold is Tordenschiold.)
Conclusions:
(1) The article's name should be Peter Wessel Tordenskiold.
(2) The article's present introduction should be modified to this:
I also desire sources confirming that Tordenskjold is much more used than Tordenskiold. It seems like the loud-voiced claims of every randomly arriving IP address are accepted as truth. — Breadbasket 08:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
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1690 or 1691? Some of the cited sources (Gyldendals, Søfartshistorie) say the former, some (DBL, EB 1911) say the latter. Please reconcile the difference. Thank you. — howcheng { chat} 21:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
From A normal tourist map, "but everything is negative":
Danish slave trade does not mention Tordenskjold. Was he involved? -- Error ( talk) 11:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This has all the hallmarks of myth. Are there any reliable English language sources, which address either the incident itself, or the growth of the story? Springnuts ( talk) 16:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Peter Tordenskjold article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 28, 2020. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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you might want to incorperate into the article that a widely avalible brand of matchsticks in denmark is named "Tordenskjold" and features a painting of him on the front. the matches are, ironicaly, made by a swedish company.
Edited Tordenskjolds nationality from 'Danish-Norwegian' to Norwegian. In order to be 'Danish-Norwegian' one parent had to be from Denmark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Arnold is Austrian-/american because he is an american citizen by choice. Peter wessel was simply a Norwegian serving in the Danish navy. Norwegian wikipedia describes him as a Norwegian officer serving in the Danish navy. This is a more correct description as its based on facts not nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 12:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
What? He was born and raised in Norway. You are blatanlty POV and nationalistic. Even Danish wiki confirm that he was born in Trondheim http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wessel_Tordenskiold The reason why Danish wiki says hes 'Danish-Norwegian' is because hes the greatest hero in the history on Denmark-Norway. And you nationalistic Danes cant handle the fact that youre greatest hero is fullblood Norwegian. Stop being an POV idiot.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Third Opinion: After reviewing material in my home edition of Britannica, and doing a Google search on the topic, my conclusion is clear. Tordenskjold was born in Trondhjem, Norway, which makes him Norwegian. This, however is not where it ends.
Let's back up and look at this objectively, so you can both see my point of view. I was born and raised in the USA. If I decide to run off to Denmark, am I still an American? I would surely say so. Would I be Danish-American? No. Would my children, if born in Denmark to me, their American father, and a Danish woman, be considered Danish-American? Yes, you could say so. If I swore allegiance to Denmark, and became a citizen, I would then say I am Danish or Danish-American.
Simply moving to another country, in my opinion, does not change ones nationality. The question you must ask is: Did Tordenskjold swear allegiance to Denmark and/or become a citizen? Obviously so, as he fought for their Navy. It is quite difficult to fight for the military of another nation, successfully I might add, without valuing that country.
Therefore, my third opinion, which you may take with whatever grain-of-salt you so desire is: Peder Tordenskjold was Norwegian by birth, but Danish-Norwegian through most of his life. I think it is fair to list him as Danish-Norwegian in any reference/articles about him.
Jsmykal 17:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
There were no 'Norwegian navy' as already mentioned, only the Danish so in fact he was kind of loaned. JGC, the vast majority of Norwegians (and historians) see the union as a disaster for the Kingdom of Norway. Ibsen our most famous writer refers to it as the '400 year night'. It delt a severe blow to Norwegian culture and language, and Norwegian state goods as well as silver mines were emptied to finance Danish wars across the continet as well as building palaces in Copenhagen. as a result of Dane wars, Norway lost Jamtland, Bohuslån, Herjedalen, Iceland, The Faroese Island and Greenland. I have encountered many danes who seam to have a very innocent view of the union, and to Norwegians that view can be quite offensive. Nastykermit 08:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The time has come to end this confused discussion. The confusion stems from the failure by most contributors to distinguish between the terms nationality and citizenship. At the time of Tordenskjold, Denmark-Norway was one state consisting of two kingdoms, two duchies and some other territories in a personal and legislative union. But Denmark and Norway were considered two kingdoms, not one. The royal title was always "King of Denmark and Norway etc." The former state now usually called Denmark-Norway, or in both languages "helstaten", was at that time often referred to as Denmark for short, but on formal occasions called "tvillingrigerne" — "the twin realms". Except for a few separate Norwegian institutions, the state was closely integrated. It had one common state church and one navy. The state may best be compared to the United Kingdom of Great Britain" established in 1707 as a legislative union between the former kingdoms of England and Scotland.
The subjects of the king of Denmark-Norway would in today's terms be citizens of that consolidated state, much as natives of Great Britain are citizens of the United Kingdom, not of England or Scotland. But in terms of nationality, most citizens of the United Kingdom consider themselves to be Englishmen or Scots, respectively, in spite of efforts to construct a common British identity. Sean Connery may tolerate being called British, but certainly not English.
Similarly, the citizens of Denmark-Norway considered themselves to be of Danish or Norwegian nationality, as has been well documented by the eminent historian Øystein Rian, referred to by Inge above. They did not have recourse to a common term similar to "British" as a way out. For that reason, and because the legal status of the united kingdoms was not well known, foreigners often called all Dano-Norwegian citizens "Danish", just as Continental Europeans often spoke (and some still speak) of "England" when they meant (or mean) the United Kingdom. The situation of Norwegian nationals during the time of Tordenskjold was probably much the same as that of Scots in the present United Kingdom. Am I right in stating that they will usually resent being called English? There is evidence to support the assumption that not only Tordenskjold but most of his countrymen preferred to be called Norwegians, and resented to be called Danish.
That sense of belonging to a separate nation did not prevent Tordenskjold and the majority of sailors in the common Dano-Norwegian navy who were Norwegian nationals to consider themselves loyal subjects of their king — the king of Norway, who happened also to be the king of Denmark.
The crucial point here is to distinguish between nationality and citizenship. A look at the article on Scotland is recommended as an aid to discerning the difference between the concepts. If that distinction is considered, may we conclude that Tordenskjold was a Norwegian naval officer of the Dano-Norwegian navy in the service of the king of Denmark-Norway? Roede ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a Dano-Norwegian idiom originating from a cunning stratagem applied by Tordenskjold at the battle of Marstrand. We should have it mentioned in the article and also a separate article on it. __ meco ( talk)
During my recent overhaul of the article, I have excluded some snippets of information that I could not find any sources for/were unsupported by the sources I employed:
Please provide a source, when/if reinstating these details. Poulsen ( talk) 09:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I have deleted the part about Tordenskiolds death:
This description is from a uccesful danish play from 1993 about Tordenskiold - it is a figment of the playwrites immagination and has nothing to do with history (at least it is'nt backed by any record).
The title of this article should be Peter Tordenskiold. This was his name.
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 07:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move after many weeks Kotniski ( talk) 09:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Peter Tordenskjold → Peter Wessel Tordenskiold —I suggest that Peter Tordenskiold hereby gets the standard variant of his name. Please view the discussion page, the section Tordenskjold = Tordenskiold. Aaemn784 ( talk) 12:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I would like to provide the following documentation, which confirms the customs for orthographical standardisation as established by the Norwegian Language Council:
The Norwegian Language Council: Historical names - Rules
Quotation: «Norske navn etter 1700 skrives etter samtidsskrivemåten.»
Translation thereof: «Norwegian names after 1700 are written in accordance with the temporal spelling.»
The name Tordenskiold was granted in 1716 (first grant) and 1761 (second grant).
This documentation is intended solely to attest my allegations and not e.g. to surpass English Wikipedia's regulations. However, it is probably wise to follow the Language Council, which is among the supreme lingual authorities concering the Norwegian language.
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 13:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Reading that Tordenskiold is mentioned in both the Danish and Norwegian anthem, I read the lyrics of the Danish anthem Der er et yndigt land and (both the modern, shorter, and original lyrics) and, as suspected, I found no trace of him there. I have therefor rewritten the sentence 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero, and he is featured in the national anthems of both countries.' to 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero.' If anyone finds that he is in fact mentioned in the Norwegian anthem, fell free to add it. FrederikHertzum ( talk) 23:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi. It should not involve big efforts quickly to get confirmed that Norway's national anthem includes Tordenskiold's name. He is mentioned in the third verse:
Tordenskiold langs kysten lynte
--- Aaemn784 ( talk) 00:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
It is said above that: "Most Norwegians have ordinary names, like patronymica and names deriving from farm names, and they are therefore unfortunately unable to understand aristocratic names. It is too alien for them. They consider a name like Tordenskiold like some kind of fantasy name, almost like it were just for fun."
A quick reply: "Tordenskiold" is not a typical aristocratic name in Denmark or Norway. The most prominent/ancient aristocratic Danish/Norwegian families have names which are down to earth and often not very different from other names derived from agricultural properties. One's of Denmark-Norway's crème de la crème noble families is the Danish family Kaas, a family which has been part of the high nobility since time immemorial and with almost a millennium of recorded history. Similar names with the same meaning (e.g. Kaasa) were/are also quite common among ordinary peasants in Norway and their descendants. Pompous names like "Tordenskiold" are typical of the "letter nobility" of the more recent era (=18th century), often the nouveau riche, and always indicate that the family is not among the "real" nobility, or higher nobility, dating centuries back. The original/older noble families never have such names. Tordenskiold is indeed a kind of fantasy name, almost ridiculous in its pompousness, also compared to the names of most noble families. There is only a handful of families in Denmark/Norway with such names, all of them part of the "letter nobility" of the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sporrevig ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Tordenskjold is a common name referring to this person. However, people have always used Tordenskjold alone, and not his complete name, as a common name. Peter Tordenskjold or Peter Wessel Tordenskjold are thus not common names. The Wikipedia common name rule does not apply to the complete name.
Examples of common names are Bokken Lasson instead of Caroline Lasson, Wenche Foss instead of Eva Wenche Steenfeldt-Foss Stang, and Vinni instead of Øyvind Sauvik. Peter Tordenskiold's common name is Tordenskiold/Tordenskjold, regardless of the name's spelling. One is misusing the common name rule to discredit one of the two standard spellings of Peter Tordenskiold's common name. (A spelling that is not standard for Peter Tordenskiold is Tordenschiold.)
Conclusions:
(1) The article's name should be Peter Wessel Tordenskiold.
(2) The article's present introduction should be modified to this:
I also desire sources confirming that Tordenskjold is much more used than Tordenskiold. It seems like the loud-voiced claims of every randomly arriving IP address are accepted as truth. — Breadbasket 08:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
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1690 or 1691? Some of the cited sources (Gyldendals, Søfartshistorie) say the former, some (DBL, EB 1911) say the latter. Please reconcile the difference. Thank you. — howcheng { chat} 21:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
From A normal tourist map, "but everything is negative":
Danish slave trade does not mention Tordenskjold. Was he involved? -- Error ( talk) 11:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This has all the hallmarks of myth. Are there any reliable English language sources, which address either the incident itself, or the growth of the story? Springnuts ( talk) 16:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)