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See http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/hac7.htm. Srnec 18:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
What exactly does this mean. Everything in the article seems fairly uncontroversial and, to my eye, looks to be correct. I understand that there are no citations, but it seems to me a bad idea to put a "this article is probably wrong" notice on every article that doesn't have citations. Is that wikipedia policy now? john k 13:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I see that wikipedia is having a tough time fighting the expansionist aspirations of some ethnicities. Crown of Aragon, Aragonese monarch.
Eboracum 09:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There are other reasons, but I hope this convinces. Srnec 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
---charles--- c. of anjou could not flee from sicily. he was never on that island! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.71.224 ( talk) 22:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The article says:
Peter was the direct descendant and the heir-general of the Mafalda, daughter of Robert Guiscard, Duke of Apulia, the Norman conqueror, and his official wife Sigelgaita, daughter of a Lombard prince, Guaimar IV of Salerno. Thus, he stood at the end of the Hauteville succession to Sicily. After the ducal family of Apulia became extinct with William II in 1127, Mafalda's heirs (then counts of Barcelona) apparently became de jure heirs of Guiscard and Sigelgaita.
I looked at the geneology to try to trace how exactly he was descended from this pair. One of Peter's great-great-grandmothers was Constance of Antioch; Constance's paternal grandfather was Bohemond I of Antioch, who was the son of Robert Guiscard and his first, repudiated, wife, Alberada of Buonalbergo. Is there another line of descent from Robert and Sigelgaita that leads to Peter, or is the mention of Sigelgaita in this paragraph an error? -- Jfruh ( talk) 03:47, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
-- EeuHP ( talk) 23:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Comment: I would definitely opt for the
croat. --
Maragm (
talk) 10:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the croat image should be included in the article, because it brings important information, but not on the infobox, as representing the king himself. Normally infoboxes which are dedicated to a person wear a contemporary picture of that person. Images 3-4 can be considered contemporary, as they are taken from the Nuova Cronica, written around 1300; Peter III died in 1285, so we can consider the chronicle contemporary to Peter III, due to the short distance of time of barely 15 years since the death of the king (not like image 1 from the 1600's for instance). On the other hand, the croat's image, as all other medieval coins which bear images of kings, is not a reliable source to determine his real appearance. I clearly then vote for image 3 or 4, as most people have. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethra2016 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi, I see Snerc has reverted the contemporary image I included on Peter III's infobox to the older croat version. The image I had included is taken from a non-Catalan contemporaneous source. The Nuova Cronica was written by Giovanni Villani, an Italian banker, official, diplomat and chronicler from the Republic of Florence. Giovanni Villani himself in the 36th chapter of Book 8, states that the idea of writing the Cronica came to him during the jubilee of Rome in 1300, and so he wrote: "... thus in the year 1300, on my return from Rome, I began to compile this book in the name of God and the blessed John the Baptist and in honor of our city of Florence." I am aware of the discussion on the talkpage, and I have respected the opinion of the majority. Actually counting the users' opinions, more users prefer contemporary images 3 or 4 (I had inserted one of those, both from the Italian Nuova Cronica written by Villani). (Users that prefer contemporary images 3 or 4: EeuHP, HChc2009, Tarc, myself, and even Ealdgyth, who seems to be discussing between the croat and a 1600's portrait, aparently ignoring images 3 and 4, says ... Stick with contemporary or near contemporary - or if lacking such, something that is clear to the reader that it's not pretending to be something it isn't - a realistic portrait. The image I inserted is, as it should be in any enciclopedia, a contemporary image of the king (Villani started writing the chronicle just 15 years after Peter's death, so obviously they had been contemporary and had lived both at the same time). Enciclopedic policies demand contemporary sources, and that is what has been done. The initial discussion between Maragm and PaulB are not aware of those images, and only discuss between two other sources: the croat or the 17th century portrait. Of course, in that case I would also think the croat to be a better option. Paul B doesn't seem to be aware of the contemporary Villani's chronicle images of the king neither. Maragm hasn't shown up since he started the discussion defending the croat against the 17th century portrait (not mentioning images 3 or 4 from the Cronica). I think the 17th century portrait is now out of the best enciclopedic possibilities, and I agree it should be discarted as an option for the infobox image. Please, give me a reason why a contemporary portrait shouldn't prevail? Why do you prefer a bad quality croat image, with an unclear image of the person? (as Paul B agrees (quote) "In fact it's a crude imitation of late Roman coin types,..."). Consensus has been reached on the talk page. Respect. Ethra2016 ( talk) 21:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
It is a pity that, having so many portraits of Peter III, the article is illustrated by a coin. The coin is contemporaneous, but the portrait is simple and non descriptive. Could be any king of any time, the picture doesn't even have a beard, unlike Peter III). If the coin were the only visual material Commons, ok, but it is not.
However, the portrait of the Nuova Cronica is more adequate. Offers an image of the King, is the most old portrait of him in Commons (was painted only two or three decades after his death) and has resemblance to the true face of the King (recently reconstruced by computer using his skull) and shows real characteristics of his appearance (Peter III dyed his hair to blonde, which justifies that in the portrait the king appears with blond hair and brown beard). -- EeuHP ( talk) 12:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In this article it is mentioned that Peter III of Aragón died on November 2nd 1285. But I don't think this is accurate. Peter's will was drawn up on June 3rd 1282. And it was supplemented on November 2nd and November 3rd 1285. Therefore Peter cannot have died on November 2nd. He rather died either November 10th or November 11th 1285. One can find both data in the literature of historians. But, as I said, November 2nd can't be possible.
Kind regards, Georg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.165.130.93 ( talk) 13:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Still not seeing a reason for a run down on Peter II's last days to be included in this article. IF Peter III held any ill feeling towards the Papacy, and IF Peter III renounced Aragon's status as a papal fief, it should be demonstrably provable. The current sources do not include page numbers or quotes to satisfy verifiability. Judging from the editor's statements on my talk page, this person appears to be here to push a particular POV.-- Kansas Bear ( talk) 19:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
The sources I provided explained why Peter's renounce to the feudal obligations to Papacy his grandfather Peter II had taken oath to, is indeed directly connected with the way his grandfather Peter II died in the battle of Muret (in the Albigensian crusade), as he died opposing the crusader's slaughter and invasion of Occitania; these sources linked to books written by U.S.A. scholar Damian J Smith, specialized in the medieval Crown of Aragon, and Director of graduate studies of Saint Louis University. Happily, the BOT re-edited my references. Recently I've also added an image of a 14th century illuminated manuscript which shows Peter III holding his crown, coronating himself. The text of the parchment (which includes a translation to english) recreates the royal ordination in which Peter III declared that all the kings of Aragon (referring to the union of kingdoms and counties under one crown, called the crown of Aragon) will be coronated by themselves, therefore renouncing to be vassals of the papacy (who could elect and depose kings, as was deposed Peter III's father-in-law Manfred of Sicily from the House of Hohenstaufen, by the way, in favour of the french Charles d'Anjou, who was supported by the pope as King of Sicily). Well, I hope this information is enough to convince you of an historical fact: Peter III indeed renounced to Aragon's status as a papal fief, and I don't know why anyone should doubt it and erase the information. Peter III obviously had to have important reasons to do so on his coronation day, making it a royal ordination for other kings to come. The information on how his grandfather Peter the Catholic opposed the Albigensian crusade and died defending his vassal lords of Occitania against the crusaders commanded by Simon de Montfort on the battle of Muret in 1213, helps us understand the background of Peter III's family, the House of Barcelona and their opposition to some of the papal state's external policies. That's history, not a POV. Thank you Ethra2016 ( talk) 07:06, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Peter III of Aragon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
See http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/hac7.htm. Srnec 18:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
What exactly does this mean. Everything in the article seems fairly uncontroversial and, to my eye, looks to be correct. I understand that there are no citations, but it seems to me a bad idea to put a "this article is probably wrong" notice on every article that doesn't have citations. Is that wikipedia policy now? john k 13:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I see that wikipedia is having a tough time fighting the expansionist aspirations of some ethnicities. Crown of Aragon, Aragonese monarch.
Eboracum 09:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There are other reasons, but I hope this convinces. Srnec 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
---charles--- c. of anjou could not flee from sicily. he was never on that island! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.71.224 ( talk) 22:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The article says:
Peter was the direct descendant and the heir-general of the Mafalda, daughter of Robert Guiscard, Duke of Apulia, the Norman conqueror, and his official wife Sigelgaita, daughter of a Lombard prince, Guaimar IV of Salerno. Thus, he stood at the end of the Hauteville succession to Sicily. After the ducal family of Apulia became extinct with William II in 1127, Mafalda's heirs (then counts of Barcelona) apparently became de jure heirs of Guiscard and Sigelgaita.
I looked at the geneology to try to trace how exactly he was descended from this pair. One of Peter's great-great-grandmothers was Constance of Antioch; Constance's paternal grandfather was Bohemond I of Antioch, who was the son of Robert Guiscard and his first, repudiated, wife, Alberada of Buonalbergo. Is there another line of descent from Robert and Sigelgaita that leads to Peter, or is the mention of Sigelgaita in this paragraph an error? -- Jfruh ( talk) 03:47, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
-- EeuHP ( talk) 23:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Comment: I would definitely opt for the
croat. --
Maragm (
talk) 10:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the croat image should be included in the article, because it brings important information, but not on the infobox, as representing the king himself. Normally infoboxes which are dedicated to a person wear a contemporary picture of that person. Images 3-4 can be considered contemporary, as they are taken from the Nuova Cronica, written around 1300; Peter III died in 1285, so we can consider the chronicle contemporary to Peter III, due to the short distance of time of barely 15 years since the death of the king (not like image 1 from the 1600's for instance). On the other hand, the croat's image, as all other medieval coins which bear images of kings, is not a reliable source to determine his real appearance. I clearly then vote for image 3 or 4, as most people have. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethra2016 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi, I see Snerc has reverted the contemporary image I included on Peter III's infobox to the older croat version. The image I had included is taken from a non-Catalan contemporaneous source. The Nuova Cronica was written by Giovanni Villani, an Italian banker, official, diplomat and chronicler from the Republic of Florence. Giovanni Villani himself in the 36th chapter of Book 8, states that the idea of writing the Cronica came to him during the jubilee of Rome in 1300, and so he wrote: "... thus in the year 1300, on my return from Rome, I began to compile this book in the name of God and the blessed John the Baptist and in honor of our city of Florence." I am aware of the discussion on the talkpage, and I have respected the opinion of the majority. Actually counting the users' opinions, more users prefer contemporary images 3 or 4 (I had inserted one of those, both from the Italian Nuova Cronica written by Villani). (Users that prefer contemporary images 3 or 4: EeuHP, HChc2009, Tarc, myself, and even Ealdgyth, who seems to be discussing between the croat and a 1600's portrait, aparently ignoring images 3 and 4, says ... Stick with contemporary or near contemporary - or if lacking such, something that is clear to the reader that it's not pretending to be something it isn't - a realistic portrait. The image I inserted is, as it should be in any enciclopedia, a contemporary image of the king (Villani started writing the chronicle just 15 years after Peter's death, so obviously they had been contemporary and had lived both at the same time). Enciclopedic policies demand contemporary sources, and that is what has been done. The initial discussion between Maragm and PaulB are not aware of those images, and only discuss between two other sources: the croat or the 17th century portrait. Of course, in that case I would also think the croat to be a better option. Paul B doesn't seem to be aware of the contemporary Villani's chronicle images of the king neither. Maragm hasn't shown up since he started the discussion defending the croat against the 17th century portrait (not mentioning images 3 or 4 from the Cronica). I think the 17th century portrait is now out of the best enciclopedic possibilities, and I agree it should be discarted as an option for the infobox image. Please, give me a reason why a contemporary portrait shouldn't prevail? Why do you prefer a bad quality croat image, with an unclear image of the person? (as Paul B agrees (quote) "In fact it's a crude imitation of late Roman coin types,..."). Consensus has been reached on the talk page. Respect. Ethra2016 ( talk) 21:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
It is a pity that, having so many portraits of Peter III, the article is illustrated by a coin. The coin is contemporaneous, but the portrait is simple and non descriptive. Could be any king of any time, the picture doesn't even have a beard, unlike Peter III). If the coin were the only visual material Commons, ok, but it is not.
However, the portrait of the Nuova Cronica is more adequate. Offers an image of the King, is the most old portrait of him in Commons (was painted only two or three decades after his death) and has resemblance to the true face of the King (recently reconstruced by computer using his skull) and shows real characteristics of his appearance (Peter III dyed his hair to blonde, which justifies that in the portrait the king appears with blond hair and brown beard). -- EeuHP ( talk) 12:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In this article it is mentioned that Peter III of Aragón died on November 2nd 1285. But I don't think this is accurate. Peter's will was drawn up on June 3rd 1282. And it was supplemented on November 2nd and November 3rd 1285. Therefore Peter cannot have died on November 2nd. He rather died either November 10th or November 11th 1285. One can find both data in the literature of historians. But, as I said, November 2nd can't be possible.
Kind regards, Georg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.165.130.93 ( talk) 13:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Still not seeing a reason for a run down on Peter II's last days to be included in this article. IF Peter III held any ill feeling towards the Papacy, and IF Peter III renounced Aragon's status as a papal fief, it should be demonstrably provable. The current sources do not include page numbers or quotes to satisfy verifiability. Judging from the editor's statements on my talk page, this person appears to be here to push a particular POV.-- Kansas Bear ( talk) 19:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
The sources I provided explained why Peter's renounce to the feudal obligations to Papacy his grandfather Peter II had taken oath to, is indeed directly connected with the way his grandfather Peter II died in the battle of Muret (in the Albigensian crusade), as he died opposing the crusader's slaughter and invasion of Occitania; these sources linked to books written by U.S.A. scholar Damian J Smith, specialized in the medieval Crown of Aragon, and Director of graduate studies of Saint Louis University. Happily, the BOT re-edited my references. Recently I've also added an image of a 14th century illuminated manuscript which shows Peter III holding his crown, coronating himself. The text of the parchment (which includes a translation to english) recreates the royal ordination in which Peter III declared that all the kings of Aragon (referring to the union of kingdoms and counties under one crown, called the crown of Aragon) will be coronated by themselves, therefore renouncing to be vassals of the papacy (who could elect and depose kings, as was deposed Peter III's father-in-law Manfred of Sicily from the House of Hohenstaufen, by the way, in favour of the french Charles d'Anjou, who was supported by the pope as King of Sicily). Well, I hope this information is enough to convince you of an historical fact: Peter III indeed renounced to Aragon's status as a papal fief, and I don't know why anyone should doubt it and erase the information. Peter III obviously had to have important reasons to do so on his coronation day, making it a royal ordination for other kings to come. The information on how his grandfather Peter the Catholic opposed the Albigensian crusade and died defending his vassal lords of Occitania against the crusaders commanded by Simon de Montfort on the battle of Muret in 1213, helps us understand the background of Peter III's family, the House of Barcelona and their opposition to some of the papal state's external policies. That's history, not a POV. Thank you Ethra2016 ( talk) 07:06, 28 January 2017 (UTC)