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Archive 1 |
There was a discussion started on my talk page where User:Crna Gora and User:PaxEquilibrium have laid out various arguments about this historical person.
Archont Petar was of Croatian origin. This is proven in the legend on the Duklja article, which says he had a brother, Krešimir.
Where did you get the idea that Archont Petar was a decendant of the Višeslav of Serbia? --Crna Gora 23:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
You should not be so intent on trying to prove a case that they were solely Croatian. It serves little practical point, and it will only invoke flamewars.
The early medieval history of Croats and Serbs is riddled with historical omissions, inaccuracies, contradictions, and indeed I have come to the conclusion that a huge chunk of it is based on conjecture.
You should instead try to find as many historical sources as possible, and present them in a neutral manner. Contribute content and context. :) -- Joy [shallot] 00:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Here, I'll try to be as brief as I can.
Goynik's son is none other than Peter Goynikovic, he is of the House of Vlastimirovic (Viseslavic?) and that alone is solely the fact itself. The argument that he was AFAIC Predimir are nothing but a theory, that I myself (from a professional Original Research) do not approve - and it is very possibly false. The only outlying fact is that Doclea and Rascia literally shared almost no border and function as a single state - but Rascian rulers were always descendants (in many cases even subjected to) of Doclea's monarchs. It is known that every Princess (ahem, "Queen" - Predimir's wife Prechvala for example) of Doclea is rascian. I do not think that that is sourced from DAI - as I understand byzantine chronicler John Scylitzes (and he is popular for making funny non-intentional mistakes) mentioned the Doclean rulers frequently (including Predimir/Petar) as rulers of a larger unified Serbia (possibly emphasizing the fact that the main Serb dynasty in Rascia died-out, while that in the coastlands survived). Aside from that - the Croatian origin legend also remains a myth - just as it is said, that's a legend, expressed through a tale-ish work. No where is it ever said that Petar is the son of Trpimir - however, he is brother to the Croatian ruler Cresimir. Historians mostly explained this by the plain fact that the Arhcbishop of Antivari often in his Chronicles referred to Croatia (Dalmatia?) and Serbia (Rascia?) as brotherlands, and any ruler of one realm is the "brother" of the ruler of the other. However, the (must admit, small) serbo-croat school to which you referred, relies itself on the research that Petar Goynikovich spent his life in the Croatian Kingdom and that the Croatian Army brought him to power in Rascia as Grand Prince, with the new Serb confederate state being subjected to Croatia, but in truth, independent (because the two countries functioned as America and Canada today). It is also known that prince Peter Goynikovic pobratimio with the Croatian ruler (which was typical for noble Serbs impressed by the much more advanced and superior Croat state back then in the early Medieval Ages - Prince Ceslav became the "brother" of the great King Tomislav). This is supported by the thing that Grand Prince Peter of Goynik ruled, among all the other southern dalmatian realms, Doclea...
That discussion should continue here. -- Joy [shallot] 11:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
As I said, the Chronicle of the Priest of Doclea speaks, aside from historical facts, about legends a lot (in many cases the father being born after the son, or living & ruling for over 200 years), but that's not the point. The point is that it claims that "Predimir" (in official historiography simply as "Petar") ruled/lived somewhere in the second half of the 10th century. However, the seal of Archont Peter (discovered long ago) that even stands in this article is professionally valuated - and it dates from the 9th century, and not afterwards. -- PaxEquilibrium 15:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I've found that this Petar is son of Gojnik...it appears that it was the truth after all...-- PaxEquilibrium 18:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
unfortunatley we should not read too much into the supposed genealogy of the Dukljan rulers, as alleged by the CPD. The accounts in this work are largely legendary, and have been dismissed by most western scholars. Hxseek ( talk) 02:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Shakespeare used "petar", currently indexed in an article petard. Victor Engel ( talk) 23:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The last section mentions these names, but I believe they should be rendered as Pavle, Petar and Simeon. -- 95.87.250.215 ( talk) 09:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There was a discussion started on my talk page where User:Crna Gora and User:PaxEquilibrium have laid out various arguments about this historical person.
Archont Petar was of Croatian origin. This is proven in the legend on the Duklja article, which says he had a brother, Krešimir.
Where did you get the idea that Archont Petar was a decendant of the Višeslav of Serbia? --Crna Gora 23:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
You should not be so intent on trying to prove a case that they were solely Croatian. It serves little practical point, and it will only invoke flamewars.
The early medieval history of Croats and Serbs is riddled with historical omissions, inaccuracies, contradictions, and indeed I have come to the conclusion that a huge chunk of it is based on conjecture.
You should instead try to find as many historical sources as possible, and present them in a neutral manner. Contribute content and context. :) -- Joy [shallot] 00:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Here, I'll try to be as brief as I can.
Goynik's son is none other than Peter Goynikovic, he is of the House of Vlastimirovic (Viseslavic?) and that alone is solely the fact itself. The argument that he was AFAIC Predimir are nothing but a theory, that I myself (from a professional Original Research) do not approve - and it is very possibly false. The only outlying fact is that Doclea and Rascia literally shared almost no border and function as a single state - but Rascian rulers were always descendants (in many cases even subjected to) of Doclea's monarchs. It is known that every Princess (ahem, "Queen" - Predimir's wife Prechvala for example) of Doclea is rascian. I do not think that that is sourced from DAI - as I understand byzantine chronicler John Scylitzes (and he is popular for making funny non-intentional mistakes) mentioned the Doclean rulers frequently (including Predimir/Petar) as rulers of a larger unified Serbia (possibly emphasizing the fact that the main Serb dynasty in Rascia died-out, while that in the coastlands survived). Aside from that - the Croatian origin legend also remains a myth - just as it is said, that's a legend, expressed through a tale-ish work. No where is it ever said that Petar is the son of Trpimir - however, he is brother to the Croatian ruler Cresimir. Historians mostly explained this by the plain fact that the Arhcbishop of Antivari often in his Chronicles referred to Croatia (Dalmatia?) and Serbia (Rascia?) as brotherlands, and any ruler of one realm is the "brother" of the ruler of the other. However, the (must admit, small) serbo-croat school to which you referred, relies itself on the research that Petar Goynikovich spent his life in the Croatian Kingdom and that the Croatian Army brought him to power in Rascia as Grand Prince, with the new Serb confederate state being subjected to Croatia, but in truth, independent (because the two countries functioned as America and Canada today). It is also known that prince Peter Goynikovic pobratimio with the Croatian ruler (which was typical for noble Serbs impressed by the much more advanced and superior Croat state back then in the early Medieval Ages - Prince Ceslav became the "brother" of the great King Tomislav). This is supported by the thing that Grand Prince Peter of Goynik ruled, among all the other southern dalmatian realms, Doclea...
That discussion should continue here. -- Joy [shallot] 11:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
As I said, the Chronicle of the Priest of Doclea speaks, aside from historical facts, about legends a lot (in many cases the father being born after the son, or living & ruling for over 200 years), but that's not the point. The point is that it claims that "Predimir" (in official historiography simply as "Petar") ruled/lived somewhere in the second half of the 10th century. However, the seal of Archont Peter (discovered long ago) that even stands in this article is professionally valuated - and it dates from the 9th century, and not afterwards. -- PaxEquilibrium 15:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I've found that this Petar is son of Gojnik...it appears that it was the truth after all...-- PaxEquilibrium 18:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
unfortunatley we should not read too much into the supposed genealogy of the Dukljan rulers, as alleged by the CPD. The accounts in this work are largely legendary, and have been dismissed by most western scholars. Hxseek ( talk) 02:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Shakespeare used "petar", currently indexed in an article petard. Victor Engel ( talk) 23:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The last section mentions these names, but I believe they should be rendered as Pavle, Petar and Simeon. -- 95.87.250.215 ( talk) 09:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)