![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
We continue to dispute the neutrality of this article. Considering the fact that media pieces run 10-1 in favor of the website, it creates a false impression to remove nearly all the positive media articles while retaining all the negative articles. This false impression in external links represents the constant proxied editing of the piece by anti-PeeJ writers. Additionally, the duplicate links to Chatmag, which is nothing more than an opinion site of one man, elevates the opinion of a layman in unnatural ways. Duplicate links to Perverted-Justice.com (to convictions, media listing and FAQ) were removed for "redundancy." Yet negative redundancy is allowed. The re-addition of "criticism" without a re-addition of content addressing points against criticism is, once again, displaying a lack of neutrality. Additionally, the writeup of why the users of Wikipedia are being re-directed to a page disputing neutrality has been presented not as a dispute of neutrality. It is a dispute of neutrality. Terming it as anything else is dishonest. "different content at the same URL" = Dispute of Neutrality. Why are Wikipedia authors leaving this fact out in external links? Again, lack of neutrality.
We continue to dispute the factual accuracy since the statistics have not been updated. Ten convictions since June of '04, not Seven. In May, that number will be twelve convictions yet there will be no update. Why? Because there is not a writer who has stepped forward thus far who can update with neutrality and factual accuracy. As stated, our only wish is for a Wikipedian author who will protect the integrity of Wikipedia. Unfortunately, that author has not yet appeared.
We again call for a re-writing of the piece by a neutral, actual Wikipedian. The flavor of this article has been tainted by anti-PeeJ/Pro-pedophile writers who are not interested in factual accuracy or neutrality, but rather creating a false impression of controversy by over-emphasizing the few "critical" articles while calling the mass of positive articles "redundancy." There is a reason there are so many "redundant" external links touting arrests, convictions or general Perverted-Justice.com accomplishments and so few critical of the website.
- Since anti-PeeJ edits have been done by non-Wikipedians without change or protection by actual Wiki users, we will go back to our near-constant reverts of this article. Issues already discussed and ruled on by actual Wikipedians (non-sourced information) has been re-added, juvenile attacks posted and spam littered throughout the piece. External links gave a mis-named link that said it would "bypass Perverted-Justice.com's filter" that went to just another attack page put up by the same ol' usual suspects.
- Perverted-Justice.com is redirecting users because of the factual inaccuracy and lack of neutrality in this article. Terming the redirection as anything else is intellectually dishonest. It has not been rewritten by actual Wiki authors nor does it appear that anyone on this website will step up to take a look themselves and fix the errors, factual inaccuracies and non-sourced information. Until someone with neutrality steps up, we will have to continue to repost the totallydisputed tag and continually revert the piece. We've given the article a couple months of sitting there, yet nobody has stepped up to maintain the integrity of this piece. A sad commentary about how this website can be overtaken by a cadre of the few.
- Thanks!
Oh dear, whatever shall I do? I've been accused of vandalizing this article, along with everyone else who posts things that one particular person doesn't like! :) I certainly plead guilty to wanting to promote my own web site; however, that link was placed there especially to bypass PeeJ's own "filter" for Wikipedia, exactly as it said. In order to allow fair editing of this article, and to avoid further accusations of self-promotion, I'll refrain from further editing for the time being. -- Modemac 21:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Modemac's admin partisanship (Check out the page he links to in order to "get around redirection"... that's NPOV?!?!? That's an NPOV-admin of Wikipedia? Are you KIDDING me? By the way, his page will soon be redirected to the same Wikipedia-dispute page we have put up) has caused us to bring in more people to edit this page back to Saaga's version of the article. Why Modemac (and anonymous editors who have not still not been curbed by all this discussion) thinks this article isn't disputed is unfathomable to me. Why he thinks the removing of links and content is a good Wiki policy is again, out of this world.
I've put enough people on editing this that at this juncture, you'll have to protect it. We're not going to put up with anonymous attacks and NPOV anymore, we've given months on end for a Wiki resolution to this article. We have called for months for an actual NPOV Wiki user to step forward and write it as they see fit. That doesn't mean someone like Modemac, a self-promoter with an obvious POV and it doesn't mean anonymous pro-pedophiles. Modemac has taken to deleting comments on the discussion page and banning IP's while reverting to a page that only fits his purposes of self-promotion. Are these the ideals that Wikipedia were founded upon?
Unless this article is cleaned up and protected, we will continue to take the task into our own hands. We don't want to, as consistently stated, but the removal of the dispute tag and the overt-deception by someone like Modemac upon Wiki users is absolutely intolerable. If this is the extent of Wikipedia's ability at "Journalism", then you guys are even ranking behind such outlets as Fox News when it comes to bias and integrity.
First of all, feel free to accuse me of protecting this page to promote my own web site; obviously I'm doing this just for my own selfish reason. I've already been accused of this, along with everyone else who has tried to fix the repeated reversions to this page by the person who admits (or claims) to be the admin of perverted-justice.com. If you feel I'm "abusing" my admin priveleges by doing so, then please: go ahead and call arbitration on me.
But other than that, there's still the matter of this stupid, petty revert war that has been going on for months. No one seems to be interested in coming to any resolution to this issue; instead, it's repeated reverting back and forth. Wipedia arbitration is probably needed to resolve this thing, once and for all. So I'm asking for commentary before calling for it. -- Modemac 02:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Came here from RfC this morning. I've read through the talk page, but I'm still not clear about the substance of the disagreement. All I've seen, for the most part, is a bunch of whinging and hand-waving. Can someone please tell me what, precisely, is objectionable about this article, on both sides? We need a specific delineation of what both sides feel needs to be changed instead of finger-pointing that's going nowhere fast. · Katefan0 (scribble) 14:43, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
This is what I came up with: "Perverted-Justice.com (also known as "PeeJ") is a website dedicated to catching Internet pedophiles while they attempt to meet up with underage children for sexual encounters. The website makes use of contributors who pose as young girls or boys, talk to older men who are interested in exchanging photos online, and then attempt to set up dates and times to meet. Subsequently, they place information about these men on their website for anyone to view."
It contains the same information before, except for one sentence. The sentence about the contributors being grown men and women was removed, since the earlier setence states that the contributors pose/act like boys and girls. Plus, to my understanding, there is no real way for anyone to check on ages of the contributors. Does anyone agree with this? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Did Modemac protect this to his own version? It looks to me like he did. That would constitute a gross abuse of admin powers. There are ways to get help if you feel under attack! This is unacceptable. Grace Note 06:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I just read this through quickly. A few observations:
I remember this dispute from months ago, so it's well worth sorting out once and for all. I agree with Katefan's suggestion that it would be helpful if people could list exactly what's in dispute so it can all be cleared up at once, if possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:22, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
The main problem I see here is the avowed commitment to perpetuate an edit war by the operators of the perverted-justice.com website. I think I would be much more sympathetic to the operators of perverted-justice.com if they:
It is my opinion that any editor who declares the intent to perpetuate an edit war should be banned until such time as they retract that declaration. Such an editor is " being a dick" and, as such, is breaking the social contract upon which Wikipedia is based. An agreement by the editors working on behalf of perverted-justice.com to comply with the above steps would do a great deal to restoring my good faith in their willingness to work toward an article that is appropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Kelly Martin 15:55, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a reference to speculation about Von Erck's real name. I have not been able to independently find this information in reliable news sources and unless someone can prove definitively that that is his name, it needs to remain deleted.
I also found this in a Phoenix New Times article from one year ago: Although the Web site claims to be responsible for 23 arrests, exactly three cases have resulted in guilty verdicts from PJ's sting operations. Will someone from PJ please update how many additional guilty convictions there have been in the past year? · Katefan0 (scribble) 16:48, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I have no clue what POV this website has, but this is something I think we should look at: http://www.chatmag.com/news/pjnewsupdates.html
"Update 23 December 2004 Wikipedia Censored by Eide.
Phillip Eide, owner of Perverted Justice has in recent days edited out certain portions of the Wikipedia article regarding his site. The Wikipedia is a user-edited encyclopedia, with a "neutral point of view" stance regarding posts. Eide has over the past few days deleted mention of this article, and other information contrary to Perverted Justice. Repeated messages to Eide by several editors of the Wikipedia to maintain the "NPOV" have been disregarded.
In another posting his statement regarding anyone questioning Perverted Justice: "Some critics have expressed concern or opposition in regard to Perverted-Justice.com, with the administration of the web sites illustrating that most critics are outside the United States, and labeling them as defenders of pedophiles."
This censorship of opposing viewpoints is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia, and only furthers the belief that Perverted Justice is not to be regarded as a serious deterrent to online predators. This also raises the question as to whether any of the chat logs on Perverted Justice can be trusted as authentic. Censoring Wikipedia demonstrates that Eide is capable of editing chat logs. "
Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:08, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm doing a bit of a rewrite of this page to try to get rid of some of the unsourced claims, make the language more neutral, and order the information differently. If I'm going to be longer than a few minutes, I'll put the inuse tag on the page, to avoid edit conflicts. There seems little doubt about the name Phillip Eide, though I haven't found a source yet that's reliable according to WP standards. There are also photographs of him available. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Von Erck said he got the idea for PeeJ as he chatted on the Internet and witnessed adult males vying for the attention of underage girls in chat rooms. He says his group has 31 trained contributors who pose as girls with screen names like "sara_so_bored," waiting in chat rooms for an adult male to proposition them.
Von Erck claims this has led to 30 arrests and six convictions since the group began working with police in 2004. He says that up to 75 percent of police contacts by PeeJ are well-received.
[...]
But PeeJ's actions are not condoned by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the leading child safety advocacy group in the nation.
"It's really not the safest, most effective way to combat this problem. It really needs to be left up to law enforcement," said Tina Schwartz, director of communication for NCMEC. "From what I've seen in some of these other cases with Perverted Justice, they embarrass the people, but I don't know that complete justice is ever served." Katefan0.
Adding some sources for your re-write, if you wish to use them, great. Very glad to see actual NPOV Wikipedians taking over! The issue of the filter will easily be solved by the inclusion of NPOV writers.
Sources for convictions (from the PeeJ site) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=full (copy and paste) - Obviously those are not news articles, but writeups on the PeeJ site itself. Some contain links to news articles, however. Putting "The website claims a dozen convictions" or "over ten convictions" would be accurate, perhaps even with the external link. Might not be a good idea to say a specific number, since the counter has been updating pretty quickly over the last few months.
Sources for news (Some cover convictions, others cover arrests, some cover the site in general) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?press=full (copy and paste) - Contains a listing of positive articles. I believe all the negative articles are already linked via the piece. Some of the article links no longer work, as news websites often "archive" content, but I believe all are easily found via Google if anyone is interested.
Information First is the website's program for signing up detectives and jurisdictions. The 98 million number is old, probably comes from late 2004. The number is generated by the amount of populance that is covered by Information First agreements. Basically Information First is our database of which contacts have stipulated receiving logs and information of individuals in their area. The other question related to the forums, where "Followup" takes place. Identification of the male in the chat-log along with a notification of his community, family, friends, whomever. Followup is controversial to the anti-PeeJ cause and probably should be marked as so.
Who are the adults who pose as minors? - Volunteers trained and picked from other volunteer positions via the forums. The process takes six months to a year of evaluation doing other tasks. Out of over 18,000 people who have signed up for the forums, there have been only 30-35 people selected to do full-scale contributorship at the top level of the website.
Are they paid anything?
No. The only funds the website generates comes from the Cafepress store, which garners about a buck a sale. Usually the income from that is approximately 30-100 dollars a month, depending on the month, with an average amount of 50 dollars. Administrators nor volunteers are paid, and donations from private individuals are not asked for.
Do they only chat, or do they also do follow-up research?
Depends on the contributor. Some do FU research, some don't.
How are they checked out (e.g. to check they're not pedophiles themselves or have convictions for violence, for example)?
Criminal background checks prior to promotion. Crimes of violence, blackmail, fraud or sex-related are automatic disqualifiers. Petty crimes are not taken into account.
What steps are involved in the move from chatroom encounter to posting of names and addresses?
Initial contact from the predator. Agreement (vague or specific) to meet for sexual activity. Phone Verification Contacting either Information First detective/department or cold-calling. (Website change in June of 2004) If police interest, usually not posted until after sentencing. If no police interest, file goes to main-page. From there, research is done.
It is interesting to note that half of the convictions the website has accrued have come after posting to the main page, as LE have quite often worked the case for the first time after the logs were posted.
Glad to see NPOV attention given to this article. Thanks! ---- 13:56, May 18, 2005 67.169.194.181
Adding some sources for your re-write, if you wish to use them, great. Very glad to see actual NPOV Wikipedians taking over! The issue of the filter will easily be solved by the inclusion of NPOV writers.
Sources for convictions (from the PeeJ site) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=full (copy and paste) - Obviously those are not news articles, but writeups on the PeeJ site itself. Some contain links to news articles, however. Putting "The website claims a dozen convictions" or "over ten convictions" would be accurate, perhaps even with the external link. Might not be a good idea to say a specific number, since the counter has been updating pretty quickly over the last few months. 67.169.194.181
Sources for news (Some cover convictions, others cover arrests, some cover the site in general) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?press=full (copy and paste) - Contains a listing of positive articles. I believe all the negative articles are already linked via the piece. Some of the article links no longer work, as news websites often "archive" content, but I believe all are easily found via Google if anyone is interested.
Information First is the website's program for signing up detectives and jurisdictions.
"Signing up in what sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:22, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
The 98 million number is old, probably comes from late 2004. The number is generated by the amount of populance that is covered by Information First agreements. Basically Information First is our database of which contacts have stipulated receiving logs and information of individuals in their area. The other question related to the forums, where "Followup" takes place. Identification of the male in the chat-log along with a notification of his community, family, friends, whomever. Followup is controversial to the anti-PeeJ cause and probably should be marked as so.
Who are the adults who pose as minors? - Volunteers trained and picked from other volunteer positions via the forums.
The process takes six months to a year of evaluation doing other tasks.
Out of over 18,000 people who have signed up for the forums, there have been only 30-35 people selected to do full-scale contributorship at the top level of the website.
Are they paid anything?
No. The only funds the website generates comes from the Cafepress store, which garners about a buck a sale.
Usually the income from that is approximately 30-100 dollars a month, depending on the month, with an average amount of 50 dollars. Administrators nor volunteers are paid, and donations from private individuals are not asked for.
Do they only chat, or do they also do follow-up research?
Depends on the contributor. Some do FU research, some don't.
How are they checked out (e.g. to check they're not pedophiles themselves or have convictions for violence, for example)?
Criminal background checks prior to promotion. Crimes of violence, blackmail, fraud or sex-related are automatic disqualifiers. Petty crimes are not taken into account.
What steps are involved in the move from chatroom encounter to posting of names and addresses?
Initial contact from the predator. Agreement (vague or specific) to meet for sexual activity. Phone Verification Contacting either Information First detective/department or cold-calling.
(Website change in June of 2004) If police interest, usually not posted until after sentencing. If no police interest, file goes to main-page. From there, research is done.
It is interesting to note that half of the convictions the website has accrued have come after posting to the main page, as LE have quite often worked the case for the first time after the logs were posted.
Glad to see NPOV attention given to this article. Thanks! ----
I've put von Erck's image on the page. If anyone disagrees with this either on editorial or copyright grounds, feel free to take it down. I took it from the ABC News website but don't know who owns the copyright. If they own it, we can ask them for permission; if Xavier owns it, we can either use it with permission or claim fair use. I've claimed fair use until we know more. The copyright issues aside, does anyone have a view as to whether it's inappropriate in an editorial sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:42, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I personally would look up the Court TV documentry "Katie.com." That has information on PJ and how some of it works. I do not know where to find it, but I think that should get some type of mention. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:57, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
We continue to dispute the neutrality of this article. Considering the fact that media pieces run 10-1 in favor of the website, it creates a false impression to remove nearly all the positive media articles while retaining all the negative articles. This false impression in external links represents the constant proxied editing of the piece by anti-PeeJ writers. Additionally, the duplicate links to Chatmag, which is nothing more than an opinion site of one man, elevates the opinion of a layman in unnatural ways. Duplicate links to Perverted-Justice.com (to convictions, media listing and FAQ) were removed for "redundancy." Yet negative redundancy is allowed. The re-addition of "criticism" without a re-addition of content addressing points against criticism is, once again, displaying a lack of neutrality. Additionally, the writeup of why the users of Wikipedia are being re-directed to a page disputing neutrality has been presented not as a dispute of neutrality. It is a dispute of neutrality. Terming it as anything else is dishonest. "different content at the same URL" = Dispute of Neutrality. Why are Wikipedia authors leaving this fact out in external links? Again, lack of neutrality.
We continue to dispute the factual accuracy since the statistics have not been updated. Ten convictions since June of '04, not Seven. In May, that number will be twelve convictions yet there will be no update. Why? Because there is not a writer who has stepped forward thus far who can update with neutrality and factual accuracy. As stated, our only wish is for a Wikipedian author who will protect the integrity of Wikipedia. Unfortunately, that author has not yet appeared.
We again call for a re-writing of the piece by a neutral, actual Wikipedian. The flavor of this article has been tainted by anti-PeeJ/Pro-pedophile writers who are not interested in factual accuracy or neutrality, but rather creating a false impression of controversy by over-emphasizing the few "critical" articles while calling the mass of positive articles "redundancy." There is a reason there are so many "redundant" external links touting arrests, convictions or general Perverted-Justice.com accomplishments and so few critical of the website.
- Since anti-PeeJ edits have been done by non-Wikipedians without change or protection by actual Wiki users, we will go back to our near-constant reverts of this article. Issues already discussed and ruled on by actual Wikipedians (non-sourced information) has been re-added, juvenile attacks posted and spam littered throughout the piece. External links gave a mis-named link that said it would "bypass Perverted-Justice.com's filter" that went to just another attack page put up by the same ol' usual suspects.
- Perverted-Justice.com is redirecting users because of the factual inaccuracy and lack of neutrality in this article. Terming the redirection as anything else is intellectually dishonest. It has not been rewritten by actual Wiki authors nor does it appear that anyone on this website will step up to take a look themselves and fix the errors, factual inaccuracies and non-sourced information. Until someone with neutrality steps up, we will have to continue to repost the totallydisputed tag and continually revert the piece. We've given the article a couple months of sitting there, yet nobody has stepped up to maintain the integrity of this piece. A sad commentary about how this website can be overtaken by a cadre of the few.
- Thanks!
Oh dear, whatever shall I do? I've been accused of vandalizing this article, along with everyone else who posts things that one particular person doesn't like! :) I certainly plead guilty to wanting to promote my own web site; however, that link was placed there especially to bypass PeeJ's own "filter" for Wikipedia, exactly as it said. In order to allow fair editing of this article, and to avoid further accusations of self-promotion, I'll refrain from further editing for the time being. -- Modemac 21:12, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Modemac's admin partisanship (Check out the page he links to in order to "get around redirection"... that's NPOV?!?!? That's an NPOV-admin of Wikipedia? Are you KIDDING me? By the way, his page will soon be redirected to the same Wikipedia-dispute page we have put up) has caused us to bring in more people to edit this page back to Saaga's version of the article. Why Modemac (and anonymous editors who have not still not been curbed by all this discussion) thinks this article isn't disputed is unfathomable to me. Why he thinks the removing of links and content is a good Wiki policy is again, out of this world.
I've put enough people on editing this that at this juncture, you'll have to protect it. We're not going to put up with anonymous attacks and NPOV anymore, we've given months on end for a Wiki resolution to this article. We have called for months for an actual NPOV Wiki user to step forward and write it as they see fit. That doesn't mean someone like Modemac, a self-promoter with an obvious POV and it doesn't mean anonymous pro-pedophiles. Modemac has taken to deleting comments on the discussion page and banning IP's while reverting to a page that only fits his purposes of self-promotion. Are these the ideals that Wikipedia were founded upon?
Unless this article is cleaned up and protected, we will continue to take the task into our own hands. We don't want to, as consistently stated, but the removal of the dispute tag and the overt-deception by someone like Modemac upon Wiki users is absolutely intolerable. If this is the extent of Wikipedia's ability at "Journalism", then you guys are even ranking behind such outlets as Fox News when it comes to bias and integrity.
First of all, feel free to accuse me of protecting this page to promote my own web site; obviously I'm doing this just for my own selfish reason. I've already been accused of this, along with everyone else who has tried to fix the repeated reversions to this page by the person who admits (or claims) to be the admin of perverted-justice.com. If you feel I'm "abusing" my admin priveleges by doing so, then please: go ahead and call arbitration on me.
But other than that, there's still the matter of this stupid, petty revert war that has been going on for months. No one seems to be interested in coming to any resolution to this issue; instead, it's repeated reverting back and forth. Wipedia arbitration is probably needed to resolve this thing, once and for all. So I'm asking for commentary before calling for it. -- Modemac 02:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Came here from RfC this morning. I've read through the talk page, but I'm still not clear about the substance of the disagreement. All I've seen, for the most part, is a bunch of whinging and hand-waving. Can someone please tell me what, precisely, is objectionable about this article, on both sides? We need a specific delineation of what both sides feel needs to be changed instead of finger-pointing that's going nowhere fast. · Katefan0 (scribble) 14:43, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
This is what I came up with: "Perverted-Justice.com (also known as "PeeJ") is a website dedicated to catching Internet pedophiles while they attempt to meet up with underage children for sexual encounters. The website makes use of contributors who pose as young girls or boys, talk to older men who are interested in exchanging photos online, and then attempt to set up dates and times to meet. Subsequently, they place information about these men on their website for anyone to view."
It contains the same information before, except for one sentence. The sentence about the contributors being grown men and women was removed, since the earlier setence states that the contributors pose/act like boys and girls. Plus, to my understanding, there is no real way for anyone to check on ages of the contributors. Does anyone agree with this? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Did Modemac protect this to his own version? It looks to me like he did. That would constitute a gross abuse of admin powers. There are ways to get help if you feel under attack! This is unacceptable. Grace Note 06:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I just read this through quickly. A few observations:
I remember this dispute from months ago, so it's well worth sorting out once and for all. I agree with Katefan's suggestion that it would be helpful if people could list exactly what's in dispute so it can all be cleared up at once, if possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:22, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
The main problem I see here is the avowed commitment to perpetuate an edit war by the operators of the perverted-justice.com website. I think I would be much more sympathetic to the operators of perverted-justice.com if they:
It is my opinion that any editor who declares the intent to perpetuate an edit war should be banned until such time as they retract that declaration. Such an editor is " being a dick" and, as such, is breaking the social contract upon which Wikipedia is based. An agreement by the editors working on behalf of perverted-justice.com to comply with the above steps would do a great deal to restoring my good faith in their willingness to work toward an article that is appropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Kelly Martin 15:55, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a reference to speculation about Von Erck's real name. I have not been able to independently find this information in reliable news sources and unless someone can prove definitively that that is his name, it needs to remain deleted.
I also found this in a Phoenix New Times article from one year ago: Although the Web site claims to be responsible for 23 arrests, exactly three cases have resulted in guilty verdicts from PJ's sting operations. Will someone from PJ please update how many additional guilty convictions there have been in the past year? · Katefan0 (scribble) 16:48, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I have no clue what POV this website has, but this is something I think we should look at: http://www.chatmag.com/news/pjnewsupdates.html
"Update 23 December 2004 Wikipedia Censored by Eide.
Phillip Eide, owner of Perverted Justice has in recent days edited out certain portions of the Wikipedia article regarding his site. The Wikipedia is a user-edited encyclopedia, with a "neutral point of view" stance regarding posts. Eide has over the past few days deleted mention of this article, and other information contrary to Perverted Justice. Repeated messages to Eide by several editors of the Wikipedia to maintain the "NPOV" have been disregarded.
In another posting his statement regarding anyone questioning Perverted Justice: "Some critics have expressed concern or opposition in regard to Perverted-Justice.com, with the administration of the web sites illustrating that most critics are outside the United States, and labeling them as defenders of pedophiles."
This censorship of opposing viewpoints is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia, and only furthers the belief that Perverted Justice is not to be regarded as a serious deterrent to online predators. This also raises the question as to whether any of the chat logs on Perverted Justice can be trusted as authentic. Censoring Wikipedia demonstrates that Eide is capable of editing chat logs. "
Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:08, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm doing a bit of a rewrite of this page to try to get rid of some of the unsourced claims, make the language more neutral, and order the information differently. If I'm going to be longer than a few minutes, I'll put the inuse tag on the page, to avoid edit conflicts. There seems little doubt about the name Phillip Eide, though I haven't found a source yet that's reliable according to WP standards. There are also photographs of him available. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Von Erck said he got the idea for PeeJ as he chatted on the Internet and witnessed adult males vying for the attention of underage girls in chat rooms. He says his group has 31 trained contributors who pose as girls with screen names like "sara_so_bored," waiting in chat rooms for an adult male to proposition them.
Von Erck claims this has led to 30 arrests and six convictions since the group began working with police in 2004. He says that up to 75 percent of police contacts by PeeJ are well-received.
[...]
But PeeJ's actions are not condoned by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the leading child safety advocacy group in the nation.
"It's really not the safest, most effective way to combat this problem. It really needs to be left up to law enforcement," said Tina Schwartz, director of communication for NCMEC. "From what I've seen in some of these other cases with Perverted Justice, they embarrass the people, but I don't know that complete justice is ever served." Katefan0.
Adding some sources for your re-write, if you wish to use them, great. Very glad to see actual NPOV Wikipedians taking over! The issue of the filter will easily be solved by the inclusion of NPOV writers.
Sources for convictions (from the PeeJ site) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=full (copy and paste) - Obviously those are not news articles, but writeups on the PeeJ site itself. Some contain links to news articles, however. Putting "The website claims a dozen convictions" or "over ten convictions" would be accurate, perhaps even with the external link. Might not be a good idea to say a specific number, since the counter has been updating pretty quickly over the last few months.
Sources for news (Some cover convictions, others cover arrests, some cover the site in general) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?press=full (copy and paste) - Contains a listing of positive articles. I believe all the negative articles are already linked via the piece. Some of the article links no longer work, as news websites often "archive" content, but I believe all are easily found via Google if anyone is interested.
Information First is the website's program for signing up detectives and jurisdictions. The 98 million number is old, probably comes from late 2004. The number is generated by the amount of populance that is covered by Information First agreements. Basically Information First is our database of which contacts have stipulated receiving logs and information of individuals in their area. The other question related to the forums, where "Followup" takes place. Identification of the male in the chat-log along with a notification of his community, family, friends, whomever. Followup is controversial to the anti-PeeJ cause and probably should be marked as so.
Who are the adults who pose as minors? - Volunteers trained and picked from other volunteer positions via the forums. The process takes six months to a year of evaluation doing other tasks. Out of over 18,000 people who have signed up for the forums, there have been only 30-35 people selected to do full-scale contributorship at the top level of the website.
Are they paid anything?
No. The only funds the website generates comes from the Cafepress store, which garners about a buck a sale. Usually the income from that is approximately 30-100 dollars a month, depending on the month, with an average amount of 50 dollars. Administrators nor volunteers are paid, and donations from private individuals are not asked for.
Do they only chat, or do they also do follow-up research?
Depends on the contributor. Some do FU research, some don't.
How are they checked out (e.g. to check they're not pedophiles themselves or have convictions for violence, for example)?
Criminal background checks prior to promotion. Crimes of violence, blackmail, fraud or sex-related are automatic disqualifiers. Petty crimes are not taken into account.
What steps are involved in the move from chatroom encounter to posting of names and addresses?
Initial contact from the predator. Agreement (vague or specific) to meet for sexual activity. Phone Verification Contacting either Information First detective/department or cold-calling. (Website change in June of 2004) If police interest, usually not posted until after sentencing. If no police interest, file goes to main-page. From there, research is done.
It is interesting to note that half of the convictions the website has accrued have come after posting to the main page, as LE have quite often worked the case for the first time after the logs were posted.
Glad to see NPOV attention given to this article. Thanks! ---- 13:56, May 18, 2005 67.169.194.181
Adding some sources for your re-write, if you wish to use them, great. Very glad to see actual NPOV Wikipedians taking over! The issue of the filter will easily be solved by the inclusion of NPOV writers.
Sources for convictions (from the PeeJ site) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?con=full (copy and paste) - Obviously those are not news articles, but writeups on the PeeJ site itself. Some contain links to news articles, however. Putting "The website claims a dozen convictions" or "over ten convictions" would be accurate, perhaps even with the external link. Might not be a good idea to say a specific number, since the counter has been updating pretty quickly over the last few months. 67.169.194.181
Sources for news (Some cover convictions, others cover arrests, some cover the site in general) http://www.perverted-justice.com/?press=full (copy and paste) - Contains a listing of positive articles. I believe all the negative articles are already linked via the piece. Some of the article links no longer work, as news websites often "archive" content, but I believe all are easily found via Google if anyone is interested.
Information First is the website's program for signing up detectives and jurisdictions.
"Signing up in what sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:22, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
The 98 million number is old, probably comes from late 2004. The number is generated by the amount of populance that is covered by Information First agreements. Basically Information First is our database of which contacts have stipulated receiving logs and information of individuals in their area. The other question related to the forums, where "Followup" takes place. Identification of the male in the chat-log along with a notification of his community, family, friends, whomever. Followup is controversial to the anti-PeeJ cause and probably should be marked as so.
Who are the adults who pose as minors? - Volunteers trained and picked from other volunteer positions via the forums.
The process takes six months to a year of evaluation doing other tasks.
Out of over 18,000 people who have signed up for the forums, there have been only 30-35 people selected to do full-scale contributorship at the top level of the website.
Are they paid anything?
No. The only funds the website generates comes from the Cafepress store, which garners about a buck a sale.
Usually the income from that is approximately 30-100 dollars a month, depending on the month, with an average amount of 50 dollars. Administrators nor volunteers are paid, and donations from private individuals are not asked for.
Do they only chat, or do they also do follow-up research?
Depends on the contributor. Some do FU research, some don't.
How are they checked out (e.g. to check they're not pedophiles themselves or have convictions for violence, for example)?
Criminal background checks prior to promotion. Crimes of violence, blackmail, fraud or sex-related are automatic disqualifiers. Petty crimes are not taken into account.
What steps are involved in the move from chatroom encounter to posting of names and addresses?
Initial contact from the predator. Agreement (vague or specific) to meet for sexual activity. Phone Verification Contacting either Information First detective/department or cold-calling.
(Website change in June of 2004) If police interest, usually not posted until after sentencing. If no police interest, file goes to main-page. From there, research is done.
It is interesting to note that half of the convictions the website has accrued have come after posting to the main page, as LE have quite often worked the case for the first time after the logs were posted.
Glad to see NPOV attention given to this article. Thanks! ----
I've put von Erck's image on the page. If anyone disagrees with this either on editorial or copyright grounds, feel free to take it down. I took it from the ABC News website but don't know who owns the copyright. If they own it, we can ask them for permission; if Xavier owns it, we can either use it with permission or claim fair use. I've claimed fair use until we know more. The copyright issues aside, does anyone have a view as to whether it's inappropriate in an editorial sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:42, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I personally would look up the Court TV documentry "Katie.com." That has information on PJ and how some of it works. I do not know where to find it, but I think that should get some type of mention. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:57, 18 May 2005 (UTC)