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NOTE On December 19, 2005 User:JHCC moved Christianophobia to Anti-Christian prejudice. Much of the material below relates to the original article's name and placement.
For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Christianophobia
Thought the article was quite biased, so have added a "Possible Reasons" section. Feel free to improve / link citations or any comments...
Cheers âPreceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.83.223 ( talk) 19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if "Christianophobia" is meant as a Christian analog of Anti-Semitism, then it should refer to only to an deeply ingrained fear and/or hatred of Christians, specifically because of their Christianity. This may be a legitimate problem in some cases, but, in my opinion, the writers of this article seem to be applying this definition to many things that the term really shouldn't apply to:
Personally, I'm not sure if this article is savable. Other than the term itself, it doesn't seem to be saying anything that isn't already covered on the Persecution of Christians page. While that page has it's share of controversy, it at least seems to -try- to be neutral. The best thing to do might be to reduce this page to a short description of the term, and then link to the Persecution of Christians for details.
This article is really POV, but it includes some valid content along with a lot of misattributed/opinion-as-fact stuff. Could it be merged with 'Persecution of Christians' into a 'modern discrimination against Christianity' section or something similar? I don't see how they aren't two articles on the same topic. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.144.60 ( talk) 10:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- Pacula 12:26, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Christianophobia is very intense in Muslim countries" - what kind of blanket statement is this? This page needs to be purged of its major POV, if it needs to exist at all. -- Padraic 19:52, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten notably better recently, but still has a long way to go. The new opening and the "Causes of" sections are good and I think pretty fairly neutral. However the 'Effects of' section seems pretty biased, and I still think the whole 'history' section is Persecution of Christians material at best, and could very well deserve to be dumped entirely.
- Pacula 10:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Whomever (untss?) has been making the most recent changes has been doing a reasonbly good job - I'm still not sure what to do with this whole article, but it's looks less and less like something that deserves to be deleted. The mostly-new 'critisism of' section definately seems fair and helps to counter out some of the bias in the previous sections - except the 'effects of' which while improved a bit still needs major work or a trip to the bitbucket. Still though, I think the word is too much a neologism to deserve it's own article - perhaps after the current 'delete' situtation settles (which I must emphaize I did NOT initiate - I had considered it,but I'm still too much a 'n00b' here to make that kinf of descion), the good parts of this article (quite a few now) could me merged to a 'modern persecution' section of the 'percectution of chrtisians' page (perhaps even calling it something like christianophobia - fear and persecution of christians in the modern world), and the current page redirected there. My own 'deleteion' vote is currently remains 'delete', though if the article improves significantly more, I'd be more than happen to change my vote to 'merge' with POC.
- Pacula 18:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Re: deletion: So, the entry Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians recently got cast into the Lake of Fire by the Tim LaHaye lobby... why not this one? Or did I just "phobe" on anyone? (Just keep reading the praise chorus lyrics off the JumboTron and hold those hands up and you'll feel better.) I was present, as a teenager, at the 1980 Southern Baptist Convention so I both know what I'm talking about and, obviously, lack a neutral POV on the topic. Bridgman 01:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm starting to think that this page is getting close to where is should be. A quick reading-over showed no overtly biased sections or workings (mind you it's late at night at the moment here and I probably should be in bed hours ago. I'll look it over with a clearer and more critical eye as soon as I can. - Pacula 03:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
This seems to be a neologism -- even though a very famous and influential person coined the word, it's still just a neologism. I suggest redirecting it to Persecution of Christians. - Rholton 12:24, May 1, 2005 (UTC) (a committed Christian)
I wish to throw my weight behind deletion. First, it is a neologism. Second, the article is clearly biased. Among other errors it follows the rights current path of arguing that somehow underrepsented minorities have become some powerful that they are oppressing the majoirity. To argue, as this article does, that only christians are capable of democrat government is racism of the worst kind. The article devalues the views of Islamic countries which oppose Christian mercanaries, but not Christian practice. The Shari'a is clear prohibiting prosletizing of all religions, except Islam, so why is this anti-christian. It is pro-Islamic, not a good thing, but not anti-chrisian specifically.
The article is bigoted, biased and should be deleted.-- 24.126.240.60 02:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I would argue this is indeed a neologism and is, thus, eligable for a VfD. Given that a google test only gives 965 hits [1] compared to islamaphobia which returns 119k hits [2]. POV or useful content can be merged into other documents if this page is deleted so the work will not be wasted. Axon 16:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we create the article Naziphobia and have done with it?
I aggressively reduced the content of this article, but I think that in doing so the sound to noise ratio went way up. If you agree, may I remove the POV notice? Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking through the Talk above, it seems as though the POV issues that were raised no longer typify this article. I've removed the notice; but of course, await review. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These last two in the list don't sound like what I'm reading in what I can find of Weigel on-line. I don't have his books, though. Were they added to balance his list? In that case, they should go with, "other writers point to ..." Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Moved into a new paragraph. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While Weigel may have written on a book on this subject, I have to take issue with whether some of the things he lists are actually causes of christianophobia.
George Weigel attributes christianophobia today to a number of causes:
Revolver 21:12, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
45 million, or two-thirds of all Christians killed on account of their beliefs in the last 2000 years, were killed in the twentieth century, according to The New Persecuted: Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs.
A sentence that has been replaced, that compared the Christian right to Islamic terrorists, and argued that it is unjust to blame all Christians for the crimes of a few, in the same way that it would be wrong to blame all Muslims. A sentence like that has all kinds of problems, which I hope all can see. I replaced it with "(writers argue) such a view is unjust". â Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 21:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
With 16,900 entries on Google, I'm surprised that the God-fearing don't have their own article. lysdexia 03:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I've suggested on talk:Anti-Christianity that that page and this be merged into a new article called Anti-Christian prejudice, of which the Christianophobia material can be a distinct section. That eliminates the problem of a neologism as the title of an article, as well as giving a more specific and clearly definable subject. Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 16:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is an additional suggestion I made on the Talk:Criticism of Christianity page:
Aren't kids NOT supposed to watch PG-13 movies in class? Heck, I'm in high school, and our school has never been allowed to watch PG-13 movies. Isn't this NPOV and stereotypical about Christians? I'm a christian and I'm allowed to watch PG-13 movies. Sargent Teff 21:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
NOTE:
My edit says something about a statement being NPOV. I actually meant POV. Sorry, it's really late at night and I'm not totally with it right now.
My edits have been reversed (in some ways) twice now by Pollinator, and while I have (in my opinion, anyway) attempted to frame the section "Issues Concerning the American Government" in an un-biased way, the statements Pollinator has added are mildly to heavily biased, including the following:
"including the intelligent design, anti-abortion and opposition to the homosexual agenda."
It could be argued that a "gay agenda" does not exist. Thus, I propose that to make the statement less POV we add the phrase "opposition to gay rights" and link it to the article of the same name.
Also, we have this from the same section:
"while the ACLJ seeks to define separation of church and state in the same way as the founding fathers, and that policies designed to foster religious tolerance are actually intolerant of Christians. A large part of the ACLJ caseload involves defending the first ammendment rights of Christian students who are denied freedom of speech or assembly by school administrations, while other groups do not encounter this same discrimination."
Which, unlike the questionable stauts of the last statement, is blatantly POV. If anyone would like to discuss this, feel free. I also think that we might want to expand some areas of the article concerning discrimination against Christians in other nations.
Mister Mister 10:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I personally have encountered many Christians who have been discriminated against (speech-wise) in school administrations and colleges, but I think that though this is more publicized (and maybe even more common), other groups do encounter discrimination in this way as well. That was a good comment by Mister Mister.
--Feline
Does anyone know who this 64.122.203.173 individual who keeps vandalizing the article is? I'd really like to know, as this is getting a tad ridiculous. Any suggestions on dealing with this problem or finding out exactly what's going on would be appreciated.
Mister Mister 11:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Another vandal 71.112.58.77, has been trashing this article as well. I reverted his hate-mongering vandalism. I'm going to warn him now and report him if he continues. Jtpaladin 14:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that whoever wrote this article is obviously another idiot christian who believes that anyone who disagrees with him is just pure unintelligent prejudice. Mate...get stuffed.
~~I agree- this is bull crap- the article is so chock full of anti-semitic references it makes me want to track this shmuck down and beat him up. But I won't...~~ I completely agree with the above, this article was written by and is for stupid right wing jackasses....
I also agree, I find this whole article to be biased towards conservatives and absolutely lacking in substance.
Elvenscout, your views seem to be a bit prejudiced and so I wouldn't be surprised if someone did accuse you of being a bigot or intolerent. The very fact that you claim all Christians are intolerent (or Non-Christian) shows both your lack of understanding of teh scriptures you have read, or the fact that you have read a book and thought it was the Bible, and your intolerence. I am not intolerent, I agree with teh choice to belief what you wish, I think all good people will go to heaven, I have no problems with Homosexuality and I respect all other faiths...I also believe in parts of other faiths...but I am a Christian and I am slightly annoyed that you are making an attack on all christians. Please do not be a bigot, I will say again that Religious Intolerence is as bad as Racism, Homophobia, Sexism and all other intolerences. Idi Amin wouldn't have thought himself a tyrant! Sigurd Dragon Slayer
When Jews complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When homosexuals complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When Christians complain about prejudice, they just deserve it. Well folks, bigots always complain the prejudiced group deserves what they get.
Secularism hasn't been much better going back to the French Revolution when people, including my ancestor, lost their heads because they were Christians. Secular regimes have murdered more Christians in the name of tolerance and equality in France, Italy, Spain, Mexico, Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc., than all of the Inquisitions or religious wars combined. BTW, Germany of Hitler's time was largely secular. Secular regimes are responsible for the deaths of 10s of millions people in the name of tolerance, science, open-mindedness, etc.
Maybe Stalin, Mao and Robespierre are the typical atheist, or at least who atheists should look up to. LOL.
Maybe the Inquisition wasn't so bad after all, considering maybe 300,000 people were killed in all of Europe over its 800 year history, or roughly 375 people per year in a continent of 30 million people.
BTW, why is these same Christianophobic bigots always ignore the good Christianity has brought into the world. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church; universities wouldn't have developed in Europe; the learning of the ancient world would have been lost, and if it wasn't for the development of Scholasticismin the Catholic Church, modern science never would have developed. I guess the intolerant Catholic missionaries were real evil men when they allowed themselves to be murdered by the Spanish as they took up arms to prevent the enslavement of the Indians. Watch The Mission sometime.
Here's the fallacy of your perspective. If all religions are true, then Christianity is true. Therefore if Christianity is true, and Jesus taught that he was the only way to attain unity and peace with God, then the theory that all religions are true is also false. Logically speaking. Besides, how can you prove that all religions are the same or worthy.
Would those of you who hate Christianity because it teaches that it alone has truth consider the Aztec religion or Celtic religions that practiced human sacrifice to be just as good as others? Perhaps human sacrifice should return to Europe, just as it was practiced by the Druids and other pagan groups.
It's a contradiction in terms to say that all philosophies/religions should be allowed to exist, save one: Christianity. Secular fundies are so hypocritical because on one side they say everyone has to be tolerant, but that tolerance excludes Christians. In the malignant secularist viewpoint, in action not words, Christians are supposed to be second-class citizens who are supposed to sit in a corner and be quiet. [3]
To quote GK Chesterton,"There is no bigot quite like an atheist."
Chesterton was also fond of pointing out just how narrow-minded the Pharisees of tolerance and indifferentism were because their open-mindedness was limited. It was limited by the fact, the admission the Christian God was real would undermine their universe.
I love atheist tolerance, 100 million dead, 10s of millions whose crime was only being a Christian.-- 68.45.161.241 03:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
this page just says to me (i am a proclaimed theistic satanist) that if you're anti-christian you're a bigot. but if i am correct the bible is set up on the same view just in an opposite tense. until we have a page that says that anti-satanists are bigots i think this article should be destroyed âPreceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.185.198 ( talk) 23:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
This article is meant to be the equivalent of the page regarding anti-Semitism and yet whole portions of it are written in such a way as to actually blame Christianity for Christophobia. That's like blaming the Jews that died in Nazi concentration camps on their own actions. Absolutely absurd!!
I have to add this article to the list of articles that is so ridiculously skewed that it needs to be completely redone. -- Jtpaladin 20:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, why would anyone follow the "bad guy" who you can all see its obvious how bad he truly is, i wish to find out more about this why they do, but i dont in fear it may be a sin (i am a.. not exactly devoted... but i can not be diverged off my path to God, i am very faithful and loyal to God. i am Catholic)
So pretty much i want to know why people would worship the devil doing things immorally wrong and if even viewing that evil satanistic website would be a sin as i choose to just find out and not convert (HELL NO! i would never want to leave God and go with satan! My life is great the way it is with God!)
âThe preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.167.252.194 ( talk âą contribs) .
I can't go as far as to tell you why someone would turn to worship Satan because...there is none. Nor is there a God, so to speak, but that's just my point of view. I can, however, give you a list of reasons for turning away from religion:
-The person is adamant that there is no God, and that religion is a completely stupid concept
-The person looks at all the thousands of religions in the world, each one shouting that they're the ones that are right and everyone else is wrong. He begins to realize that they're all wrong.
-The person has never had an encounter with a God or a Satan, and has no grounds on which to believe.
-The person views religion as a restriction of body, mind, and soul.
-The person will not submit to a life of servitude to a God or a Satan.
-The person has had bad encounters with extremely devout Christians and Catholics.
-The person has a general hatred for conformity.
-The person believes in
Nihilism.
"The Person" mentioned above just happens to be me. Icefox111 09:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
With all do respect, what is this discussion doing here? Everyone has the right to have opinions about their religion, but Wikipedia is not the place to debate it. This page is for discussing the article itself, so that we may improve it together. Listing all of your beliefs is something you should do in your own space. For more information, see Not a soapbox (this includes Talk pages). JosCol ( talk) 21:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This article makes it sound as if Christians ( some 80 to 90Â % of Americans ) are a persecuted minority. Nothing could be further from the case. Some of this article could be applied, say, to Iran, but not the modern, western world. FireWeed 22:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You know, when skydivers pull their ripcords and a bunch of cutlery comes out of their parachute packs, like in old cartoons?
The distinction between the East and the West:
Russia has long been considered part of the European cultural continent because it is neither Arabian nor Oriental, but Western. Eastern Europe is not the East, and Western Europe is not the West. The division between the Eastern Bloc and the Western Bloc during the Cold War was a divide within Western culture, not between Eastern culture and Western culture. That much larger divide existed for a long time before the last century, and still exists in a perforated form, unlike the Bloc division, which began following the Second World War and dissolved altogether with the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
The Soviets, founded in the West, embraced modernism in its purest form, rationalism, as well as industrialism, marking them as decidedly Western. The Soviets took great pains to present themselves as the zenith of Western civilization, modernism, and science. The Soviets industrialized their territory at an amazing rate, owing to their embrace of industrialism. All of these features mark the Soviet Union as decidedly Western.
Marxism developed in Western philosophy as a hybrid of materialism and Hegelian dialectics, both developments in Western philosophy separate from their analogues in Eastern philosophy.
Marx was an atheist in Germany who read Hegel. If Marx had been a Muslim in Iran who read the Koran, Marxism would be Middle Eastern. If Marx had been a Hindu in India who read the Vedas, Marxism would be Eastern. For an example of Communism in the East, see Maoism, or Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.
When I think of Communism, I do not hear zithers, smell incense, or see Vishnu meditating. Nor do I see Communists laying out prayer mats or hear them reciting the Koran. Maybe you do, but most people do not consider Communism an Eastern phenomenon, but rather a Western.
I hope that explains it. You seem to be using the narrowest definition of the terms (The East=Eastern Europe, The West=Western Europe), and I seem to be using the broader (The East=The Eastern World, The West=The Western World). That is what I tried to demonstrate to you using the image, but you missed that. The broader use is the more appropriate, given our context. Once again, I have to ask that you try to broaden your view of the world. Ecto 01:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
WHY DOESN'T ANYONE FIX THIS ARTICLE TO ONLY INCLUDE NUETRAL FACTS AND PREVENT IT FROM TAKING SIDES WITH EITHER CHRISTIAN OR ANTI-CHRISTIAN!!!???
Some people believe organizations such as ACLU are intentionally trying to prohibit freedom of religious expression in a veiled attempt to secularize America.
This has no place in an encyclopedia, and seems to have been lifted directly from a partisan think tank white paper. Despite the fact that the ACLU has defended the practice of all major religions, and is under attack for also defending freedom from religion, as well as the separation of church and state enshrined in the First Amendment ... these are almost beside the point. It is completely anathema to Wikipedia policy to present a POV / opinion as fact by using terms like "Some people believe ..."
Also, attributing false ( or guessed at ) motivations is something children play at, not something that has a rightful place in an encyclopedia.
This is only the most succinct example; thereâs far more that needs to be fixed here. But Iâll leave it to other editors to decide how this should be fixed.
FireWeed 20:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that these would also count as weasel words:
With the rise of conservative religious movements in U.S. politics, opposition to those movements has often been characterized by those movements as anti-Christian, since they oppose the imposition of that particular brand of rural revivalist Christianity into law.
My main concern is that it does not have any source cited, and it's making a seemingly unfounded claim that a large number of conservative groups actually directly advocate the imposition of Christian doctrine into American law. Although some fringe groups do, this section is referring to the movement as a whole, and if they are actually trying to get legislation that would violate the Non-Establishment Clause, those are heavy accusations being raised. That would certainly require an objective source to back up. I know it may often seem to be that way, but remember NPOV; we can't judge someone's motives at WP based solely on our own interpretations of their actions. JosCol ( talk) 22:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
As it stands, this article is a collection of talking points from the extreme right. There's more about how intelligent design isn't taught in science class and how students are allowed a moment of silence, but not forced to recite a Christian prayer in public schools. It would seem the people oppressing Christians through prejudice are the ACLU and those who say "Happy Holidays" when they walk past you on the sidewalk. Aside from the obvious POV issues this creates, and that it's missing the real prejudice being directed at Christians, it can easily lead one to conclude that anti-Christian prejudice is either not real, or whining by the US far right about not being able to force their religious views onto others.
The quote is accurate, though; prejudice against Christians is much stronger, and more likely to be acted on, in places where Christianity is a minority faith. ( Some 80Â % of Americans identify themselves as Christians. ) Can somebody knowledgable about the subject add to this article, about atrocities in what's turning into a war surrounding Ethiopia, prejudice in Turkey, and so on? Some of what goes on in the Balkans? This article is very US-centric, but it's devoted to a subject that mainly happens outside the US. FireWeed 19:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe they are/were a persecuted group of Christians. In fact they were slaughtered by members of the federal government. Mr Christopher 21:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, Joseph Smith being killed was not the result of anti-mormonism as much as it was anti-Joseph Smithism. The man was clearly a law breaker, I'm not suggesting he deserved to die, just pointing out the "prohphet" was not an innocent kitten. However, anti-Mormonism continues to this day primarily from evangelical Christian groups who insist the Mormon church is a cult. Evangelicals get to make this claim only because they have a bigger membership (big groups are religions, little ones are cults). Maybe I'll add more when I have time. Mr Christopher 23:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, anti-Mormon prejudice does not belong in this article. Regardless of whether Mormonism has low membership or high membership, it espouses different beliefs than any Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox church. The fact that Mormonism claims to be a "church of Jesus Christ" does not make it Christian. Muslims believe that Abraham and Jesus were prophets, but this does not make Muslims Jews or Christians. [end of unsigned post]
Bridgman 01:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I just tagged this section with the original research tag. Here's why. "-phobia" suggests a "fear of". It is often associated with a clinical meaning. So we're suggesting people "have" Christianophobia? Is this a new mental disorder? We don't even have a reliable or cited definition of the term yet our readers are lead to believe people suffer from this mental problem (fear of christ). Can you catch it? Is it hereditary? Is there a treatment cure for it?
Does counseling help? You can see where I am going with this. I have never met anyone in my life who had a fear of christ or christians, but perhaps I haven't met enough people. And then the section gives a Right wing Christian viewpoint of the so-called problem of Christianophobia. He's hardly a neutral party, and I have already pointed out some of the company he keeps are pretty shady to say the least. I am not suggesting we ignore the guy, but some balance is in order. Perhaps Richard Dawkins may offer some reasons why some folks are prejudiced towards Christians (sorry, I refuse to use the term christianophobic until someone can prove that term exists and provide a reliable definition of it). Mr Christopher 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to remind everyone that this article is about prejudice, not persecution. Some editors are using the terms as synonyms on the talk page, and I fear that such a lack of distinction may slip into the article, and perhaps it has. We already have an article about persecution of Christians. Contributions on that topic should go to that article. Thank you. Ecto 18:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Among the 'prejudices' cited are:
These don't seem to fit under any definition of prejudice: The resistance to ID is because it is not scientific (In fact many Id supportters continually reject the fact that it is a religiously motivated "theory") and the other two are merely products of the first amendment that don't apply exclusively to christians: Practicers of Judaism and Islam are not allowed to do either of these and actually to saction any one would be prejudiced against the ones it did not endorse. And seeing as claiming a anti christian bias in these cases where there is no evidence to show that christians in particular are being singled out in the cases of alleged prejudice seems innapropriate for an encyclopedia without sources. Would anyone be opposed to deleting these three things? Zvyer 00:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Well maybe the last one, since under a far stretch of imagination I could understand why someone would maybe think that it could be prejudicial, but in the first one as I said there has actually been attempts to distance christianity from ID in attempt to bypass the first amendment. I have actually never heard it as an example of anti-christian prejudice. As for the second one it actually has only been connected to religious leaders talking about morality rather than anti-christian prejudice. At the very least I think that it would be best to delete them if no one can find sources after a time because as it stands they seem to be unverifiable and actually even contrary to what right wing pundits even cite as prejudical. Zvyer 03:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a category should be created called Category:Anti-Christianity or Category:Anti-Christian prejudice that is similar to Category:Anti-Judaism/ Category:Antisemitism, Category:Anti-Mormonism, etc. Category:Anti-Catholicism exists yet it seems that Wikipedia needs a broad umbrella category to deal with all of the disparate topics related to anti-Christianity. -- Wassermann 12:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the comment "(where Joseph Smith says the Garden of Eden was)" as it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. SLCMormon 06:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This movement and their media stunt already have an article of their own on Wikipedia, but they provide a good example of how targeted bigotry and hatred toward Christianity is sometimes justified by association with intellectual criticism. Brian Flemming and RRS have received criticism from other atheist activists (cited in the RRS article) for "reinforcing stereotypes" of militant atheism. 64.111.226.144 14:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the title "Anti-Christian prejudice" limits the scope of the article and that "Anti-Christian discrimination" might be better. The two terms are fairly synonymous, but in my understanding prejudice is a certain type of discrimination. Prejudice is pre-conceived discrimination, but discrimination is not always pre-conceived, if you see what I mean. "Discrimination" seems like a broader term than "prejudice," and so I think we should use "discrimination" instead of "prejudice" in the title. Could someone please change the name of the article, if there are no objections? 154.20.253.36 18:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a remark regarding the accuracy of the part where Sudan and Darfur are discussed. All the sources I've read state that Darfur is majority muslim. So how could the Janjaweed be involved in anti-Christian actions, unless they were also involved in the civil war between the Sudanese government and the Christian South more than a decade ago? Could anyone check this? If what I think is right (namely, that Darfur is populated by muslims) then the terms Darfur and (probably) Janjaweed should be removed from this article. 213.118.140.244 22:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The POV problems of this article have been discussed a lot, so I'll just specify this one bit. The thing about the BA case is wrong and NPOV. BA said that the employee couldn't wear her Crucifix Necklace over her clothes because of health and safety issues. (I.E. someone could grab the necklace and attack the employee, it could get tangled up in the baggage she was required to wear). BA said that the employee could wear the crucifix under her clothes. Later it also said that she could wear a cross lapel badge. Both compromises were unacceptable to the employee in question. As to the issue of other religions, only symbols that couldn't be covered up were allowed, such as headscarves. Everything else was meant to be concealed.
I was raised by evangelicals and I know for a fact that nowhere in the bible does it say anything about wearing a cross. The crucifix is NOT an article of faith, nor is it necessary for a devout person to display it on their person at all times. In fact, some denominations even contend that wearing such a symbol is idolatry. I know of no denomination that says a cross must or even should be worn at all times. I have actually never even heard of a denomination that takes a position on it one way or another 62.49.23.145 12:25, 3 September 2007
This article seems beyond repair. You could probably transfer it straight to Conservapedia without anyone blinking. Most of the sources are biased, the author equates "not Christian" with anti-Cristian, satanic groups (a legitimate religion, like it or not) are counted as hate groups, and the sections on hate speech, hate groups, and hate crimes are a joke. This requires a total rewrite. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.172.17 ( talk) 03:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I took out the section below as it much more about black metal than anti-christian discrimination.
'Interestingly, the cover of Burzum's EP release, Aske, portrays a photograph of the Fantoft stave church after the arson. It is unconfirmed whether or not Vikernes himself may have taken this picture. In modern times, the church burnings have caused a major divide within the black metal community concerning the legitimacy of the actions. When interviewed for the film Metal: A Headbanger's Journey, Gaahl of the band Gorgoroth praised the church burnings as "things I support", adding "there should have been more of them, and there will be more of them"[6]. However, other artists don't support these actions. Necrobutcher, one of the founding and current members of Mayhem, was quoted in a mini-documentary that accompanied the same film, saying "I think it's ridiculous, especially the people that lit up our old ... churches. They don't realize that these were actually Heathen churches, before Christianity."' Afterforever 13:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
On 17 December, I removed a paragraphs about:
The removal of these paragraphs was because they are not relevant to the subject of "a negative categorical bias against Christians or the religion of Christianity." In the case of the gallery, my edit summary said "Removing incident involving an art gallery; per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collector of information. This article is not about specific actions by individuals.)" For the other two, my edit summary said "Removing two paragraphs about attacks on specific Christian groups; this article is about attacks on Christianity as a whole, not attacks by some". [cut-off from that edit summary - my error - was the rest of the summary: "Christians on others (LDS)".
I note that Protestants and Catholics have said some very negative things about each other; this article isn't about fights within Christianity, and shouldn't be.
Before these are put back again, please discuss the matter here. -- John Broughton (â«â«) 16:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to rename this article Anti-Christian sentiment. For two reasons:
Removed strike through text.
[7] does not carry the comments like about the British which is POV.Unlike Aurangzeb there was no open Anti-hindu movement under the British .Please read what the author has written they were more known for the selfless service and there population never exceeded 3%
Pharaoh of the Wizards (
talk)
06:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
How exactly does the Pew studyâwhich states explicitly what percentage of American society is Christianâconstitute original research as I have used it? Llor N' Kcor ( talk) 04:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite see how this applies as an anti-christian sentiment? Who wouldn't get fired for refusing to work?
This entire article has a serious POV problem, especially the "2 Discrimination against Christians by country" section. Junkupshowup ( talk) 17:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
On 20 and 21 February 2008 Treekids proposed merging Anti-Christian sentiment and Christianophobia and Persecution of Christians. He did not set up a discussion at any point, nor has there been any discussion on any talk pages. Christianophobia was deleted and redirected to Anti-Christian sentiment on 24 March 2008 by Brad the Raven. I am therefore removing both Merge templates from the article, as one is irrelevant and neither seem to have been serious proposals. Cheers, Lindsay 08:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, this page has severe POV problems, to wit it only considers anti-christian sentiments in the sense of criminal, biggotted acts. There are many people (my very much included) who have strong anti-christian sentiments for very rational reasons, but would never dream of physically attacking christians or their churches. These reasons range from the wars fought throughout history in the name of christianity, the propagation of philosophical thought outdated by two millennia of intelligent debated on the subject, or the arguments that christian belief leads to more harm than good in modern society.
I feel too strongly about this to add unbiased information myself, but if anyone is interested, refer to the works of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins for more information. -- 216.86.105.213 ( talk) 06:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The current article reads like a laundry list of one side's (particularly the persecuted yet mysteriously in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth Religious Right) talking points, with loaded subject headers that only allow for negative examples of how bad Christians have it. I've changed the current "Anti-Christian Sentiment By Country' headline to 'Anti-Christian sentiment in politics and culture', so it can house discussions such as the use of the accusation as a political bludgeon and to give it a more realistic context.
We need to move onto more general themes with particular to back up in the references. The bullet points let someone take a series of very separate isolated incidents and make it seem like a serious conspiracy.
The ref [8] titled, "No Prosecution for Anti-Christian London Gay Police Association Ads" doesn't appear to be very balanced. At the time of the event the UK had in place blasphemy laws which allow for inprisonment for making statements which, ..."During a private prosecution in 1977, the trial judge said blasphemous libel was committed if a publication about God, Christ, the Christian religion or the Bible used words which were scurrilous, abusive or offensive, which vilified Christianity and might lead to a breach of the peace." (see [9]). So in the UK there is a sufficient benchmark for what is considered "anti-Christian" (actually anti-'x') and this particular event isn't it. Wikipedia must set a standard (which should be different per country according to the standards of that country) within which we judge if an event is notable enough else every partisan source could be added turning this article into a blog. If not proven alleged events of anti-Christian sentiment are thus just wishful thinking and we can't use our personal views to push for inclusion. Ttiotsw ( talk) 05:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Removing the bit on "Once upon the Cross" by Deicide and Ralph Santolla, as he wasn't the guitarist when that album was recorded. 158.36.186.21 ( talk) 19:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
The page is called "Anti-Christian sentiment" but begins "Anti-christian prejudice is a negative bias...", which could give the impression of conflating prejudice with negative sentiment. I therefore suggest that one wording is picked and stuck to. Choosing which is a bit difficult, since the article doesn't make it abundantly clear which it's talking about: a lot of the material just lists things which have offended Christians or which have been done to harm Christianity, without discussing whether they resulted from prejudice or not. Anyone have any thoughts? Olaf Davis | Talk 19:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
This article seems to unfairly conflate several different phenomena.
Firstly, there are many people who criticize the Christian religion, because they disagree with its beliefs (at a philosophical or theological level), and/or they disagree with its attitudes towards social issues (e.g. women's rights, gay rights, etc.) Many of these people will criticize other religions as well for the same reasons; however, given the fact that many of them live in traditionally Christian societies, and come from Christian backgrounds, it is natural they will focus this criticism on Christianity. Many of these people are atheist; others are deists, pantheists, or have adopted non-Christian religions (e.g. Eastern religions, neo-Paganism, etc.)
Secondly, there are people who believe that religion ought to be kept out of the public sphere, e.g. separation of church and state, etc. Some Christian conservatives have painted this as animus or discrimination against Christianity. Often, this is the same people as in group (1); but some will also be liberal-minded Christians, who have a positive attitude to Christianity, but still do not feel it belongs in places like public school, legislative chambers or the workplace.
Thirdly, there are some people in historically non-Christian countries which seek to persecute Christians or Christian missionaries. These people generally often feel that Christianity is something alien and a threat to their culture. They tend to be diametrically opposed to the liberal world view of people in groups (1) and (2).
Fourthly, there are some people in Christian countries which associate themselves with movements like Satanism, death metal, etc. This group overlaps to some extent with group (1), but this group tends to use stronger language, and often seeks to deliberately offend Christians rather than simply criticizing them at the level of reasoned debate. A minority of this group seems to be involved in vandalism of churches or cemeteries. Compared to group (1), it might be fair to say that some members of this group have moved beyond mere reasoned criticism to blind hatred.
These are four largely distinct groups of people. They all oppose at least some expressions of Christianity, if not Christianity in general, but that opposition varies from reasoned criticism to blind hatred. The reasons also widely differ: Osama bin Laden and a Satanist might both have bad things to say about Christians, but their motivations are radically different.
Given this article's inherent propensity to conflate largely unrelated phenomena, I don't think it can ever be NPOV. In particular, I suspect that the intention of a unitary concept of "anti-Christian sentiment" is to unfairly smear those who make rational criticism of Christianity as a belief system, and/or of conservative attempts to impose it into the public sphere, with the brush of those who have a visceral hatred for it (and who on occasion, engage in violence as a result.) -- SJK ( talk) 06:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC) [Oh, I should mention a fifth distinct group as well: avante garde religious art, for example Piss Christ. Some Christians believe this is a form of anti-Christian sentiment, but I'm not sure the proponents of this form of religious art share the view that it is anti-Christian. -- SJK ( talk) 06:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole world once considered Sunday as the first day of the week. In an apparent anti-Christian move most countries with the exception of the United States apparently use Monday as the first day. This was rather deliberate on Europe's part (creation of an ISO) and rather obviously anti-Christian. Reference anyone? (I suppose this is anti_Jewish as well since the Sabbath was the last day and now is officially anonymous as the "next-to-last." Student7 ( talk) 22:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
NOTE On December 19, 2005 User:JHCC moved Christianophobia to Anti-Christian prejudice. Much of the material below relates to the original article's name and placement.
For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Christianophobia
Thought the article was quite biased, so have added a "Possible Reasons" section. Feel free to improve / link citations or any comments...
Cheers âPreceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.83.223 ( talk) 19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if "Christianophobia" is meant as a Christian analog of Anti-Semitism, then it should refer to only to an deeply ingrained fear and/or hatred of Christians, specifically because of their Christianity. This may be a legitimate problem in some cases, but, in my opinion, the writers of this article seem to be applying this definition to many things that the term really shouldn't apply to:
Personally, I'm not sure if this article is savable. Other than the term itself, it doesn't seem to be saying anything that isn't already covered on the Persecution of Christians page. While that page has it's share of controversy, it at least seems to -try- to be neutral. The best thing to do might be to reduce this page to a short description of the term, and then link to the Persecution of Christians for details.
This article is really POV, but it includes some valid content along with a lot of misattributed/opinion-as-fact stuff. Could it be merged with 'Persecution of Christians' into a 'modern discrimination against Christianity' section or something similar? I don't see how they aren't two articles on the same topic. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.144.60 ( talk) 10:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- Pacula 12:26, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Christianophobia is very intense in Muslim countries" - what kind of blanket statement is this? This page needs to be purged of its major POV, if it needs to exist at all. -- Padraic 19:52, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
This article has gotten notably better recently, but still has a long way to go. The new opening and the "Causes of" sections are good and I think pretty fairly neutral. However the 'Effects of' section seems pretty biased, and I still think the whole 'history' section is Persecution of Christians material at best, and could very well deserve to be dumped entirely.
- Pacula 10:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Whomever (untss?) has been making the most recent changes has been doing a reasonbly good job - I'm still not sure what to do with this whole article, but it's looks less and less like something that deserves to be deleted. The mostly-new 'critisism of' section definately seems fair and helps to counter out some of the bias in the previous sections - except the 'effects of' which while improved a bit still needs major work or a trip to the bitbucket. Still though, I think the word is too much a neologism to deserve it's own article - perhaps after the current 'delete' situtation settles (which I must emphaize I did NOT initiate - I had considered it,but I'm still too much a 'n00b' here to make that kinf of descion), the good parts of this article (quite a few now) could me merged to a 'modern persecution' section of the 'percectution of chrtisians' page (perhaps even calling it something like christianophobia - fear and persecution of christians in the modern world), and the current page redirected there. My own 'deleteion' vote is currently remains 'delete', though if the article improves significantly more, I'd be more than happen to change my vote to 'merge' with POC.
- Pacula 18:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Re: deletion: So, the entry Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians recently got cast into the Lake of Fire by the Tim LaHaye lobby... why not this one? Or did I just "phobe" on anyone? (Just keep reading the praise chorus lyrics off the JumboTron and hold those hands up and you'll feel better.) I was present, as a teenager, at the 1980 Southern Baptist Convention so I both know what I'm talking about and, obviously, lack a neutral POV on the topic. Bridgman 01:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm starting to think that this page is getting close to where is should be. A quick reading-over showed no overtly biased sections or workings (mind you it's late at night at the moment here and I probably should be in bed hours ago. I'll look it over with a clearer and more critical eye as soon as I can. - Pacula 03:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
This seems to be a neologism -- even though a very famous and influential person coined the word, it's still just a neologism. I suggest redirecting it to Persecution of Christians. - Rholton 12:24, May 1, 2005 (UTC) (a committed Christian)
I wish to throw my weight behind deletion. First, it is a neologism. Second, the article is clearly biased. Among other errors it follows the rights current path of arguing that somehow underrepsented minorities have become some powerful that they are oppressing the majoirity. To argue, as this article does, that only christians are capable of democrat government is racism of the worst kind. The article devalues the views of Islamic countries which oppose Christian mercanaries, but not Christian practice. The Shari'a is clear prohibiting prosletizing of all religions, except Islam, so why is this anti-christian. It is pro-Islamic, not a good thing, but not anti-chrisian specifically.
The article is bigoted, biased and should be deleted.-- 24.126.240.60 02:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
I would argue this is indeed a neologism and is, thus, eligable for a VfD. Given that a google test only gives 965 hits [1] compared to islamaphobia which returns 119k hits [2]. POV or useful content can be merged into other documents if this page is deleted so the work will not be wasted. Axon 16:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we create the article Naziphobia and have done with it?
I aggressively reduced the content of this article, but I think that in doing so the sound to noise ratio went way up. If you agree, may I remove the POV notice? Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking through the Talk above, it seems as though the POV issues that were raised no longer typify this article. I've removed the notice; but of course, await review. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These last two in the list don't sound like what I'm reading in what I can find of Weigel on-line. I don't have his books, though. Were they added to balance his list? In that case, they should go with, "other writers point to ..." Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Moved into a new paragraph. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While Weigel may have written on a book on this subject, I have to take issue with whether some of the things he lists are actually causes of christianophobia.
George Weigel attributes christianophobia today to a number of causes:
Revolver 21:12, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
45 million, or two-thirds of all Christians killed on account of their beliefs in the last 2000 years, were killed in the twentieth century, according to The New Persecuted: Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs.
A sentence that has been replaced, that compared the Christian right to Islamic terrorists, and argued that it is unjust to blame all Christians for the crimes of a few, in the same way that it would be wrong to blame all Muslims. A sentence like that has all kinds of problems, which I hope all can see. I replaced it with "(writers argue) such a view is unjust". â Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 21:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
With 16,900 entries on Google, I'm surprised that the God-fearing don't have their own article. lysdexia 03:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I've suggested on talk:Anti-Christianity that that page and this be merged into a new article called Anti-Christian prejudice, of which the Christianophobia material can be a distinct section. That eliminates the problem of a neologism as the title of an article, as well as giving a more specific and clearly definable subject. Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 16:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is an additional suggestion I made on the Talk:Criticism of Christianity page:
Aren't kids NOT supposed to watch PG-13 movies in class? Heck, I'm in high school, and our school has never been allowed to watch PG-13 movies. Isn't this NPOV and stereotypical about Christians? I'm a christian and I'm allowed to watch PG-13 movies. Sargent Teff 21:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
NOTE:
My edit says something about a statement being NPOV. I actually meant POV. Sorry, it's really late at night and I'm not totally with it right now.
My edits have been reversed (in some ways) twice now by Pollinator, and while I have (in my opinion, anyway) attempted to frame the section "Issues Concerning the American Government" in an un-biased way, the statements Pollinator has added are mildly to heavily biased, including the following:
"including the intelligent design, anti-abortion and opposition to the homosexual agenda."
It could be argued that a "gay agenda" does not exist. Thus, I propose that to make the statement less POV we add the phrase "opposition to gay rights" and link it to the article of the same name.
Also, we have this from the same section:
"while the ACLJ seeks to define separation of church and state in the same way as the founding fathers, and that policies designed to foster religious tolerance are actually intolerant of Christians. A large part of the ACLJ caseload involves defending the first ammendment rights of Christian students who are denied freedom of speech or assembly by school administrations, while other groups do not encounter this same discrimination."
Which, unlike the questionable stauts of the last statement, is blatantly POV. If anyone would like to discuss this, feel free. I also think that we might want to expand some areas of the article concerning discrimination against Christians in other nations.
Mister Mister 10:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I personally have encountered many Christians who have been discriminated against (speech-wise) in school administrations and colleges, but I think that though this is more publicized (and maybe even more common), other groups do encounter discrimination in this way as well. That was a good comment by Mister Mister.
--Feline
Does anyone know who this 64.122.203.173 individual who keeps vandalizing the article is? I'd really like to know, as this is getting a tad ridiculous. Any suggestions on dealing with this problem or finding out exactly what's going on would be appreciated.
Mister Mister 11:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Another vandal 71.112.58.77, has been trashing this article as well. I reverted his hate-mongering vandalism. I'm going to warn him now and report him if he continues. Jtpaladin 14:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that whoever wrote this article is obviously another idiot christian who believes that anyone who disagrees with him is just pure unintelligent prejudice. Mate...get stuffed.
~~I agree- this is bull crap- the article is so chock full of anti-semitic references it makes me want to track this shmuck down and beat him up. But I won't...~~ I completely agree with the above, this article was written by and is for stupid right wing jackasses....
I also agree, I find this whole article to be biased towards conservatives and absolutely lacking in substance.
Elvenscout, your views seem to be a bit prejudiced and so I wouldn't be surprised if someone did accuse you of being a bigot or intolerent. The very fact that you claim all Christians are intolerent (or Non-Christian) shows both your lack of understanding of teh scriptures you have read, or the fact that you have read a book and thought it was the Bible, and your intolerence. I am not intolerent, I agree with teh choice to belief what you wish, I think all good people will go to heaven, I have no problems with Homosexuality and I respect all other faiths...I also believe in parts of other faiths...but I am a Christian and I am slightly annoyed that you are making an attack on all christians. Please do not be a bigot, I will say again that Religious Intolerence is as bad as Racism, Homophobia, Sexism and all other intolerences. Idi Amin wouldn't have thought himself a tyrant! Sigurd Dragon Slayer
When Jews complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When homosexuals complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When Christians complain about prejudice, they just deserve it. Well folks, bigots always complain the prejudiced group deserves what they get.
Secularism hasn't been much better going back to the French Revolution when people, including my ancestor, lost their heads because they were Christians. Secular regimes have murdered more Christians in the name of tolerance and equality in France, Italy, Spain, Mexico, Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc., than all of the Inquisitions or religious wars combined. BTW, Germany of Hitler's time was largely secular. Secular regimes are responsible for the deaths of 10s of millions people in the name of tolerance, science, open-mindedness, etc.
Maybe Stalin, Mao and Robespierre are the typical atheist, or at least who atheists should look up to. LOL.
Maybe the Inquisition wasn't so bad after all, considering maybe 300,000 people were killed in all of Europe over its 800 year history, or roughly 375 people per year in a continent of 30 million people.
BTW, why is these same Christianophobic bigots always ignore the good Christianity has brought into the world. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church; universities wouldn't have developed in Europe; the learning of the ancient world would have been lost, and if it wasn't for the development of Scholasticismin the Catholic Church, modern science never would have developed. I guess the intolerant Catholic missionaries were real evil men when they allowed themselves to be murdered by the Spanish as they took up arms to prevent the enslavement of the Indians. Watch The Mission sometime.
Here's the fallacy of your perspective. If all religions are true, then Christianity is true. Therefore if Christianity is true, and Jesus taught that he was the only way to attain unity and peace with God, then the theory that all religions are true is also false. Logically speaking. Besides, how can you prove that all religions are the same or worthy.
Would those of you who hate Christianity because it teaches that it alone has truth consider the Aztec religion or Celtic religions that practiced human sacrifice to be just as good as others? Perhaps human sacrifice should return to Europe, just as it was practiced by the Druids and other pagan groups.
It's a contradiction in terms to say that all philosophies/religions should be allowed to exist, save one: Christianity. Secular fundies are so hypocritical because on one side they say everyone has to be tolerant, but that tolerance excludes Christians. In the malignant secularist viewpoint, in action not words, Christians are supposed to be second-class citizens who are supposed to sit in a corner and be quiet. [3]
To quote GK Chesterton,"There is no bigot quite like an atheist."
Chesterton was also fond of pointing out just how narrow-minded the Pharisees of tolerance and indifferentism were because their open-mindedness was limited. It was limited by the fact, the admission the Christian God was real would undermine their universe.
I love atheist tolerance, 100 million dead, 10s of millions whose crime was only being a Christian.-- 68.45.161.241 03:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
this page just says to me (i am a proclaimed theistic satanist) that if you're anti-christian you're a bigot. but if i am correct the bible is set up on the same view just in an opposite tense. until we have a page that says that anti-satanists are bigots i think this article should be destroyed âPreceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.185.198 ( talk) 23:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
This article is meant to be the equivalent of the page regarding anti-Semitism and yet whole portions of it are written in such a way as to actually blame Christianity for Christophobia. That's like blaming the Jews that died in Nazi concentration camps on their own actions. Absolutely absurd!!
I have to add this article to the list of articles that is so ridiculously skewed that it needs to be completely redone. -- Jtpaladin 20:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, why would anyone follow the "bad guy" who you can all see its obvious how bad he truly is, i wish to find out more about this why they do, but i dont in fear it may be a sin (i am a.. not exactly devoted... but i can not be diverged off my path to God, i am very faithful and loyal to God. i am Catholic)
So pretty much i want to know why people would worship the devil doing things immorally wrong and if even viewing that evil satanistic website would be a sin as i choose to just find out and not convert (HELL NO! i would never want to leave God and go with satan! My life is great the way it is with God!)
âThe preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.167.252.194 ( talk âą contribs) .
I can't go as far as to tell you why someone would turn to worship Satan because...there is none. Nor is there a God, so to speak, but that's just my point of view. I can, however, give you a list of reasons for turning away from religion:
-The person is adamant that there is no God, and that religion is a completely stupid concept
-The person looks at all the thousands of religions in the world, each one shouting that they're the ones that are right and everyone else is wrong. He begins to realize that they're all wrong.
-The person has never had an encounter with a God or a Satan, and has no grounds on which to believe.
-The person views religion as a restriction of body, mind, and soul.
-The person will not submit to a life of servitude to a God or a Satan.
-The person has had bad encounters with extremely devout Christians and Catholics.
-The person has a general hatred for conformity.
-The person believes in
Nihilism.
"The Person" mentioned above just happens to be me. Icefox111 09:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
With all do respect, what is this discussion doing here? Everyone has the right to have opinions about their religion, but Wikipedia is not the place to debate it. This page is for discussing the article itself, so that we may improve it together. Listing all of your beliefs is something you should do in your own space. For more information, see Not a soapbox (this includes Talk pages). JosCol ( talk) 21:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This article makes it sound as if Christians ( some 80 to 90Â % of Americans ) are a persecuted minority. Nothing could be further from the case. Some of this article could be applied, say, to Iran, but not the modern, western world. FireWeed 22:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You know, when skydivers pull their ripcords and a bunch of cutlery comes out of their parachute packs, like in old cartoons?
The distinction between the East and the West:
Russia has long been considered part of the European cultural continent because it is neither Arabian nor Oriental, but Western. Eastern Europe is not the East, and Western Europe is not the West. The division between the Eastern Bloc and the Western Bloc during the Cold War was a divide within Western culture, not between Eastern culture and Western culture. That much larger divide existed for a long time before the last century, and still exists in a perforated form, unlike the Bloc division, which began following the Second World War and dissolved altogether with the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
The Soviets, founded in the West, embraced modernism in its purest form, rationalism, as well as industrialism, marking them as decidedly Western. The Soviets took great pains to present themselves as the zenith of Western civilization, modernism, and science. The Soviets industrialized their territory at an amazing rate, owing to their embrace of industrialism. All of these features mark the Soviet Union as decidedly Western.
Marxism developed in Western philosophy as a hybrid of materialism and Hegelian dialectics, both developments in Western philosophy separate from their analogues in Eastern philosophy.
Marx was an atheist in Germany who read Hegel. If Marx had been a Muslim in Iran who read the Koran, Marxism would be Middle Eastern. If Marx had been a Hindu in India who read the Vedas, Marxism would be Eastern. For an example of Communism in the East, see Maoism, or Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.
When I think of Communism, I do not hear zithers, smell incense, or see Vishnu meditating. Nor do I see Communists laying out prayer mats or hear them reciting the Koran. Maybe you do, but most people do not consider Communism an Eastern phenomenon, but rather a Western.
I hope that explains it. You seem to be using the narrowest definition of the terms (The East=Eastern Europe, The West=Western Europe), and I seem to be using the broader (The East=The Eastern World, The West=The Western World). That is what I tried to demonstrate to you using the image, but you missed that. The broader use is the more appropriate, given our context. Once again, I have to ask that you try to broaden your view of the world. Ecto 01:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
WHY DOESN'T ANYONE FIX THIS ARTICLE TO ONLY INCLUDE NUETRAL FACTS AND PREVENT IT FROM TAKING SIDES WITH EITHER CHRISTIAN OR ANTI-CHRISTIAN!!!???
Some people believe organizations such as ACLU are intentionally trying to prohibit freedom of religious expression in a veiled attempt to secularize America.
This has no place in an encyclopedia, and seems to have been lifted directly from a partisan think tank white paper. Despite the fact that the ACLU has defended the practice of all major religions, and is under attack for also defending freedom from religion, as well as the separation of church and state enshrined in the First Amendment ... these are almost beside the point. It is completely anathema to Wikipedia policy to present a POV / opinion as fact by using terms like "Some people believe ..."
Also, attributing false ( or guessed at ) motivations is something children play at, not something that has a rightful place in an encyclopedia.
This is only the most succinct example; thereâs far more that needs to be fixed here. But Iâll leave it to other editors to decide how this should be fixed.
FireWeed 20:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that these would also count as weasel words:
With the rise of conservative religious movements in U.S. politics, opposition to those movements has often been characterized by those movements as anti-Christian, since they oppose the imposition of that particular brand of rural revivalist Christianity into law.
My main concern is that it does not have any source cited, and it's making a seemingly unfounded claim that a large number of conservative groups actually directly advocate the imposition of Christian doctrine into American law. Although some fringe groups do, this section is referring to the movement as a whole, and if they are actually trying to get legislation that would violate the Non-Establishment Clause, those are heavy accusations being raised. That would certainly require an objective source to back up. I know it may often seem to be that way, but remember NPOV; we can't judge someone's motives at WP based solely on our own interpretations of their actions. JosCol ( talk) 22:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
As it stands, this article is a collection of talking points from the extreme right. There's more about how intelligent design isn't taught in science class and how students are allowed a moment of silence, but not forced to recite a Christian prayer in public schools. It would seem the people oppressing Christians through prejudice are the ACLU and those who say "Happy Holidays" when they walk past you on the sidewalk. Aside from the obvious POV issues this creates, and that it's missing the real prejudice being directed at Christians, it can easily lead one to conclude that anti-Christian prejudice is either not real, or whining by the US far right about not being able to force their religious views onto others.
The quote is accurate, though; prejudice against Christians is much stronger, and more likely to be acted on, in places where Christianity is a minority faith. ( Some 80Â % of Americans identify themselves as Christians. ) Can somebody knowledgable about the subject add to this article, about atrocities in what's turning into a war surrounding Ethiopia, prejudice in Turkey, and so on? Some of what goes on in the Balkans? This article is very US-centric, but it's devoted to a subject that mainly happens outside the US. FireWeed 19:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe they are/were a persecuted group of Christians. In fact they were slaughtered by members of the federal government. Mr Christopher 21:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, Joseph Smith being killed was not the result of anti-mormonism as much as it was anti-Joseph Smithism. The man was clearly a law breaker, I'm not suggesting he deserved to die, just pointing out the "prohphet" was not an innocent kitten. However, anti-Mormonism continues to this day primarily from evangelical Christian groups who insist the Mormon church is a cult. Evangelicals get to make this claim only because they have a bigger membership (big groups are religions, little ones are cults). Maybe I'll add more when I have time. Mr Christopher 23:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, anti-Mormon prejudice does not belong in this article. Regardless of whether Mormonism has low membership or high membership, it espouses different beliefs than any Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox church. The fact that Mormonism claims to be a "church of Jesus Christ" does not make it Christian. Muslims believe that Abraham and Jesus were prophets, but this does not make Muslims Jews or Christians. [end of unsigned post]
Bridgman 01:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I just tagged this section with the original research tag. Here's why. "-phobia" suggests a "fear of". It is often associated with a clinical meaning. So we're suggesting people "have" Christianophobia? Is this a new mental disorder? We don't even have a reliable or cited definition of the term yet our readers are lead to believe people suffer from this mental problem (fear of christ). Can you catch it? Is it hereditary? Is there a treatment cure for it?
Does counseling help? You can see where I am going with this. I have never met anyone in my life who had a fear of christ or christians, but perhaps I haven't met enough people. And then the section gives a Right wing Christian viewpoint of the so-called problem of Christianophobia. He's hardly a neutral party, and I have already pointed out some of the company he keeps are pretty shady to say the least. I am not suggesting we ignore the guy, but some balance is in order. Perhaps Richard Dawkins may offer some reasons why some folks are prejudiced towards Christians (sorry, I refuse to use the term christianophobic until someone can prove that term exists and provide a reliable definition of it). Mr Christopher 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to remind everyone that this article is about prejudice, not persecution. Some editors are using the terms as synonyms on the talk page, and I fear that such a lack of distinction may slip into the article, and perhaps it has. We already have an article about persecution of Christians. Contributions on that topic should go to that article. Thank you. Ecto 18:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Among the 'prejudices' cited are:
These don't seem to fit under any definition of prejudice: The resistance to ID is because it is not scientific (In fact many Id supportters continually reject the fact that it is a religiously motivated "theory") and the other two are merely products of the first amendment that don't apply exclusively to christians: Practicers of Judaism and Islam are not allowed to do either of these and actually to saction any one would be prejudiced against the ones it did not endorse. And seeing as claiming a anti christian bias in these cases where there is no evidence to show that christians in particular are being singled out in the cases of alleged prejudice seems innapropriate for an encyclopedia without sources. Would anyone be opposed to deleting these three things? Zvyer 00:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Well maybe the last one, since under a far stretch of imagination I could understand why someone would maybe think that it could be prejudicial, but in the first one as I said there has actually been attempts to distance christianity from ID in attempt to bypass the first amendment. I have actually never heard it as an example of anti-christian prejudice. As for the second one it actually has only been connected to religious leaders talking about morality rather than anti-christian prejudice. At the very least I think that it would be best to delete them if no one can find sources after a time because as it stands they seem to be unverifiable and actually even contrary to what right wing pundits even cite as prejudical. Zvyer 03:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a category should be created called Category:Anti-Christianity or Category:Anti-Christian prejudice that is similar to Category:Anti-Judaism/ Category:Antisemitism, Category:Anti-Mormonism, etc. Category:Anti-Catholicism exists yet it seems that Wikipedia needs a broad umbrella category to deal with all of the disparate topics related to anti-Christianity. -- Wassermann 12:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the comment "(where Joseph Smith says the Garden of Eden was)" as it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. SLCMormon 06:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This movement and their media stunt already have an article of their own on Wikipedia, but they provide a good example of how targeted bigotry and hatred toward Christianity is sometimes justified by association with intellectual criticism. Brian Flemming and RRS have received criticism from other atheist activists (cited in the RRS article) for "reinforcing stereotypes" of militant atheism. 64.111.226.144 14:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the title "Anti-Christian prejudice" limits the scope of the article and that "Anti-Christian discrimination" might be better. The two terms are fairly synonymous, but in my understanding prejudice is a certain type of discrimination. Prejudice is pre-conceived discrimination, but discrimination is not always pre-conceived, if you see what I mean. "Discrimination" seems like a broader term than "prejudice," and so I think we should use "discrimination" instead of "prejudice" in the title. Could someone please change the name of the article, if there are no objections? 154.20.253.36 18:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a remark regarding the accuracy of the part where Sudan and Darfur are discussed. All the sources I've read state that Darfur is majority muslim. So how could the Janjaweed be involved in anti-Christian actions, unless they were also involved in the civil war between the Sudanese government and the Christian South more than a decade ago? Could anyone check this? If what I think is right (namely, that Darfur is populated by muslims) then the terms Darfur and (probably) Janjaweed should be removed from this article. 213.118.140.244 22:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The POV problems of this article have been discussed a lot, so I'll just specify this one bit. The thing about the BA case is wrong and NPOV. BA said that the employee couldn't wear her Crucifix Necklace over her clothes because of health and safety issues. (I.E. someone could grab the necklace and attack the employee, it could get tangled up in the baggage she was required to wear). BA said that the employee could wear the crucifix under her clothes. Later it also said that she could wear a cross lapel badge. Both compromises were unacceptable to the employee in question. As to the issue of other religions, only symbols that couldn't be covered up were allowed, such as headscarves. Everything else was meant to be concealed.
I was raised by evangelicals and I know for a fact that nowhere in the bible does it say anything about wearing a cross. The crucifix is NOT an article of faith, nor is it necessary for a devout person to display it on their person at all times. In fact, some denominations even contend that wearing such a symbol is idolatry. I know of no denomination that says a cross must or even should be worn at all times. I have actually never even heard of a denomination that takes a position on it one way or another 62.49.23.145 12:25, 3 September 2007
This article seems beyond repair. You could probably transfer it straight to Conservapedia without anyone blinking. Most of the sources are biased, the author equates "not Christian" with anti-Cristian, satanic groups (a legitimate religion, like it or not) are counted as hate groups, and the sections on hate speech, hate groups, and hate crimes are a joke. This requires a total rewrite. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.172.17 ( talk) 03:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I took out the section below as it much more about black metal than anti-christian discrimination.
'Interestingly, the cover of Burzum's EP release, Aske, portrays a photograph of the Fantoft stave church after the arson. It is unconfirmed whether or not Vikernes himself may have taken this picture. In modern times, the church burnings have caused a major divide within the black metal community concerning the legitimacy of the actions. When interviewed for the film Metal: A Headbanger's Journey, Gaahl of the band Gorgoroth praised the church burnings as "things I support", adding "there should have been more of them, and there will be more of them"[6]. However, other artists don't support these actions. Necrobutcher, one of the founding and current members of Mayhem, was quoted in a mini-documentary that accompanied the same film, saying "I think it's ridiculous, especially the people that lit up our old ... churches. They don't realize that these were actually Heathen churches, before Christianity."' Afterforever 13:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
On 17 December, I removed a paragraphs about:
The removal of these paragraphs was because they are not relevant to the subject of "a negative categorical bias against Christians or the religion of Christianity." In the case of the gallery, my edit summary said "Removing incident involving an art gallery; per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collector of information. This article is not about specific actions by individuals.)" For the other two, my edit summary said "Removing two paragraphs about attacks on specific Christian groups; this article is about attacks on Christianity as a whole, not attacks by some". [cut-off from that edit summary - my error - was the rest of the summary: "Christians on others (LDS)".
I note that Protestants and Catholics have said some very negative things about each other; this article isn't about fights within Christianity, and shouldn't be.
Before these are put back again, please discuss the matter here. -- John Broughton (â«â«) 16:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to rename this article Anti-Christian sentiment. For two reasons:
Removed strike through text.
[7] does not carry the comments like about the British which is POV.Unlike Aurangzeb there was no open Anti-hindu movement under the British .Please read what the author has written they were more known for the selfless service and there population never exceeded 3%
Pharaoh of the Wizards (
talk)
06:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
How exactly does the Pew studyâwhich states explicitly what percentage of American society is Christianâconstitute original research as I have used it? Llor N' Kcor ( talk) 04:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite see how this applies as an anti-christian sentiment? Who wouldn't get fired for refusing to work?
This entire article has a serious POV problem, especially the "2 Discrimination against Christians by country" section. Junkupshowup ( talk) 17:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
On 20 and 21 February 2008 Treekids proposed merging Anti-Christian sentiment and Christianophobia and Persecution of Christians. He did not set up a discussion at any point, nor has there been any discussion on any talk pages. Christianophobia was deleted and redirected to Anti-Christian sentiment on 24 March 2008 by Brad the Raven. I am therefore removing both Merge templates from the article, as one is irrelevant and neither seem to have been serious proposals. Cheers, Lindsay 08:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, this page has severe POV problems, to wit it only considers anti-christian sentiments in the sense of criminal, biggotted acts. There are many people (my very much included) who have strong anti-christian sentiments for very rational reasons, but would never dream of physically attacking christians or their churches. These reasons range from the wars fought throughout history in the name of christianity, the propagation of philosophical thought outdated by two millennia of intelligent debated on the subject, or the arguments that christian belief leads to more harm than good in modern society.
I feel too strongly about this to add unbiased information myself, but if anyone is interested, refer to the works of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins for more information. -- 216.86.105.213 ( talk) 06:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The current article reads like a laundry list of one side's (particularly the persecuted yet mysteriously in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth Religious Right) talking points, with loaded subject headers that only allow for negative examples of how bad Christians have it. I've changed the current "Anti-Christian Sentiment By Country' headline to 'Anti-Christian sentiment in politics and culture', so it can house discussions such as the use of the accusation as a political bludgeon and to give it a more realistic context.
We need to move onto more general themes with particular to back up in the references. The bullet points let someone take a series of very separate isolated incidents and make it seem like a serious conspiracy.
The ref [8] titled, "No Prosecution for Anti-Christian London Gay Police Association Ads" doesn't appear to be very balanced. At the time of the event the UK had in place blasphemy laws which allow for inprisonment for making statements which, ..."During a private prosecution in 1977, the trial judge said blasphemous libel was committed if a publication about God, Christ, the Christian religion or the Bible used words which were scurrilous, abusive or offensive, which vilified Christianity and might lead to a breach of the peace." (see [9]). So in the UK there is a sufficient benchmark for what is considered "anti-Christian" (actually anti-'x') and this particular event isn't it. Wikipedia must set a standard (which should be different per country according to the standards of that country) within which we judge if an event is notable enough else every partisan source could be added turning this article into a blog. If not proven alleged events of anti-Christian sentiment are thus just wishful thinking and we can't use our personal views to push for inclusion. Ttiotsw ( talk) 05:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Removing the bit on "Once upon the Cross" by Deicide and Ralph Santolla, as he wasn't the guitarist when that album was recorded. 158.36.186.21 ( talk) 19:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
The page is called "Anti-Christian sentiment" but begins "Anti-christian prejudice is a negative bias...", which could give the impression of conflating prejudice with negative sentiment. I therefore suggest that one wording is picked and stuck to. Choosing which is a bit difficult, since the article doesn't make it abundantly clear which it's talking about: a lot of the material just lists things which have offended Christians or which have been done to harm Christianity, without discussing whether they resulted from prejudice or not. Anyone have any thoughts? Olaf Davis | Talk 19:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
This article seems to unfairly conflate several different phenomena.
Firstly, there are many people who criticize the Christian religion, because they disagree with its beliefs (at a philosophical or theological level), and/or they disagree with its attitudes towards social issues (e.g. women's rights, gay rights, etc.) Many of these people will criticize other religions as well for the same reasons; however, given the fact that many of them live in traditionally Christian societies, and come from Christian backgrounds, it is natural they will focus this criticism on Christianity. Many of these people are atheist; others are deists, pantheists, or have adopted non-Christian religions (e.g. Eastern religions, neo-Paganism, etc.)
Secondly, there are people who believe that religion ought to be kept out of the public sphere, e.g. separation of church and state, etc. Some Christian conservatives have painted this as animus or discrimination against Christianity. Often, this is the same people as in group (1); but some will also be liberal-minded Christians, who have a positive attitude to Christianity, but still do not feel it belongs in places like public school, legislative chambers or the workplace.
Thirdly, there are some people in historically non-Christian countries which seek to persecute Christians or Christian missionaries. These people generally often feel that Christianity is something alien and a threat to their culture. They tend to be diametrically opposed to the liberal world view of people in groups (1) and (2).
Fourthly, there are some people in Christian countries which associate themselves with movements like Satanism, death metal, etc. This group overlaps to some extent with group (1), but this group tends to use stronger language, and often seeks to deliberately offend Christians rather than simply criticizing them at the level of reasoned debate. A minority of this group seems to be involved in vandalism of churches or cemeteries. Compared to group (1), it might be fair to say that some members of this group have moved beyond mere reasoned criticism to blind hatred.
These are four largely distinct groups of people. They all oppose at least some expressions of Christianity, if not Christianity in general, but that opposition varies from reasoned criticism to blind hatred. The reasons also widely differ: Osama bin Laden and a Satanist might both have bad things to say about Christians, but their motivations are radically different.
Given this article's inherent propensity to conflate largely unrelated phenomena, I don't think it can ever be NPOV. In particular, I suspect that the intention of a unitary concept of "anti-Christian sentiment" is to unfairly smear those who make rational criticism of Christianity as a belief system, and/or of conservative attempts to impose it into the public sphere, with the brush of those who have a visceral hatred for it (and who on occasion, engage in violence as a result.) -- SJK ( talk) 06:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC) [Oh, I should mention a fifth distinct group as well: avante garde religious art, for example Piss Christ. Some Christians believe this is a form of anti-Christian sentiment, but I'm not sure the proponents of this form of religious art share the view that it is anti-Christian. -- SJK ( talk) 06:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The whole world once considered Sunday as the first day of the week. In an apparent anti-Christian move most countries with the exception of the United States apparently use Monday as the first day. This was rather deliberate on Europe's part (creation of an ISO) and rather obviously anti-Christian. Reference anyone? (I suppose this is anti_Jewish as well since the Sabbath was the last day and now is officially anonymous as the "next-to-last." Student7 ( talk) 22:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
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