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People, please keep your personal opinions to yourself and post only verifiable facts. Not skewed facts from religious literature but scholarly materials please. You peoples personal bias be gettin in the way. This site's purpose should be to educate the youth who will undoubtably be using it for research as it is among the first websites to come up when searching for facts on Google. Please keep your religious problems to your organized religion's blogs and such. 203.129.99.203 14:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Big C
I have added material about the persecution of Christians by Jews, and I've noticed that this subject ties in with that of Christian antisemitism, but I'm having trouble thinking of how to word the link. One question is to what extent was the persecution of Christians by Jews exagerrated to justify Christian antisemitism? Many of the passages people have attacked in the NT as being antisemtic recount persecution of Christians by Jews. Also, the ancient accounts of persecution of Christians by Jews obviously laid the groundwork in some ways for the blood libel -- in fact people such as Julian of Norwich and Anderl von Rinn, supposed medieveal victims of Jews, were celebrated as Christian martyrs, in the same way as Stephen, Peter and Paul.
Also, I think for balance, we should include some sort of link or section (or maybe even a whole new article) on persecution of others by Christians, and persecution by Christians of each other. We could link in there such things as the persecution of Greek philosophers by Christian Roman Emperors, expulsion and forced conversion of Jews and Muslims from Spain, the Crusades, the persecution of the Albigensians and Waldenses, and the wars of religion around and after the Reformation... -- SJK
In the Roman section, how about information on throwing Christians to the lions (in the coliseum) - did that happen?
Please, please, move the external links to the end of the article. Wikipedia is not a web directory, nor is it an attempt to organize other content (though one must admit that would be a worthy project, it's not our project). -- LMS
In the article,
for Christian missionaries to use synagogue pulpits to preach the claim that he would soon return, leading the armies of Heaven, to establish his kingdom, would have made the Jewish community vulnerable to accusations of treason, and thus to Roman punishment. Jewish leaders would have to supress any apparent insurrection, or risk Roman wrath.
seems unlikely since Jews were already known to the Romans as suicidal nutballs whose terrorist activities were extremely annoying. -- Ark
Actually, RK is referring to a couple of long and vicious arguments we've had about Israel and anti-Semitism. More than enough to form an opinion. (Whether it's a rational, justified or even sane opinion is a different matter entirely.)
I'm more concerned with possibly having made a mistake. Now that I think about it, IIRC, the articles I read said it's the Brits who thought the Jews were lunatics and couldn't wash their hands of the Middle East fast enough. But I also read that the Jews were as masochistic two millenia ago as the early Christians, so it looks like I lucked out anyways. :) -- Ark
I removed the following text as unattributed speculation:
The "Some" who have "speculated" needs to be identified if it is anyone besides the person who typed in the text. It is also somewhat off-topic, and might possibly belong in the Christian anti-semitism article instead. Wesley
I think the text should be restored - but as you point out, it doesn't really belong here. In my reading I have seen that this claim is a fairly mainstream view among a number of historians and/or Bible scholars, both gentile and Jewish. I am not saying that it is necessarilly the majority view; just a common one that is widely accepted as reasonable. I don't have a ready citation at hand, but I will keep my out for citations on this topic. It also is the view that I happen to find extremely likely. There is no more reasonable way to explain how the Roman persecution of Jews (including the crucifixtion of thousands of them), somehow got rewritten as a pro-Roman, render unto-Caesar what is Caesar's, non-Jewish (and sometimes anti-Jewish) book. (It makes sense considering the time and place that it was written.) Perhaps we should have a discussion of this idea in Christian anti-Semitism article, as you suggest. RK
Wesley writes that "intolerance, exclusivity and schism are not the same as persecution".
I disagree. In fact, these terms are a very good definition of persecution. I think you are reading "persecution" as "physically assaulting", but that is not what is stated or intended. Assault is only the last type of persecution. Many other forms of persecution exist! Even so, Christian intolerance towards other Christians, exclusivity and schism often do lead to bloodshed, assaults and all out wars. To mention just the most famous example, a large part of the terrorism in Ireland is part of religious conflict between Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians. The nation of England also has a long history of warfare between one Christian group and another, and the violence was long preceded by intolerance, exclusivity and schism. RK
Conflicts within mainline Protestant denominations Forces of Schism within Christianity
This comes from Talk:Christian persecution
-A friendly amendment - this should branch off of (but not be a subpage - horrors, no!) and refer back to another entry on 'religious persecution'. I think it should probably be a headered section on religious persecution. I'm the last person to suggest that the persecution of Christians doesn't happen (I read a lot of memoirs and history from the Soviet era), but we've got to set it up so everyone can get in their persecutions. --MichaelTinkler, who suggests something like:
20th century religious persecution:
Augustine's writings have always been viewed with skepticism by Eastern Christianity, and Tertullian ended his life formally denounced as a heretic, an adherent of Montanism.
These arguments are special pleading. Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded. What they say on this issue has not been condemned by the church in any segment of it, as far as I know. I removed them.
It seems a shame for Augustine to suffer disrepute just because a boneheaded "scholar" misunderstands his quote. Tertullian wasn't _the_ leader of the church at any time, and it's silly that he would be credited with inciting a mass-suicide movement among the Christians. Mkmcconn
"However, Pilate's wife, through occult practices, had warned Pilate that he should not have any dealing with Jesus..." -- we need some documentation on this. The locus appears to be Matthew 27, but it is much sketchier than this.
From what i read, the first paragraphs of this article (jews and romans) are largely based on the New Testament. I don't believe that is a NPOV source. I think the article can be improved by the adition of historical accounts. Like the descriptions of Nero persecutions after the Rome fire, for instance. Muriel Gottrop 14:54, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I removed this new paragraph: It should be noted that almost none of these events involve the native "Malankara" Orthodox Christians of India but are instead directed at Roman Catholics or Protestants. Thus, this persecution could very well be as much a matter of political opposition to what is perceived as extension of old colonialist attitudes from foreigners as it is a matter of religion.
This is a hateful and unjustifibale excuse to justify attacks on, and murder of, Christians. People in a mob screaming to hurt or kill Christians are not voicing political differences about colonialism versus nationalism; they are simply hurting or killing Christians. (The same is true when people unjustifiably try to justify suicide bombings against Jews.) There is a big difference between voicing political differences, and murdering people of other religions. RK 21:31, Dec 9, 2003 (UTC)
If no one can supply substantial and UNBIASED evidence that the "Discrimination in the West Bank & Gaza / Palestinian territory"-section is not WIDELY blown out of proportions (note the biased sources) within a reasonable time period, say a few days, I'm going to remove it in its entirety as pro-Israeli propaganda. The existence of Palestian Christians has always disturbed Zionists for several obvious reasons, so to put this down as a propaganda attempt makes sense. Note that I'm not saying that there aren't any real incidents, but this section is called Persecution of Christians, so their scale and severeness must differ substantially from that of other multi-cultural societies which are not mentioned here, before a case can be made for their inclusion in this article. -- 213.73.231.245 01:45, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
That section is indeed very problematic. We must remember that the Israeli government has extremely clear reasons for wanting to talk up the problems of Palestinian Christians. The main reason, in a nutshell: the USA is predominantly Christian. What better way to promote anti-Palestinian sentiment in America than to teach Americans that the Palestinians persecute Christians? All claims about this that come via the Israeli government (directly or indirectly) need independent verification.
--
That said, some of the events described probably did occur. However, a second problem with the section is that it makes no distinction between local and official events. Violent behaviour from a few neighborhood hotheads does not qualify as "persecution" unless it is systemic and has official sanction. There is no evidence for this that I have seen. Yes, many in the Muslim population don't care for Christians and especially not for proselytizing Christians. Same in Israel.
--
A third omission is the fact that Christian organizations have many times denied the claims that they are persecuted (while not claiming to be free of problems). Examples on the internet include
http://www.eohsjatlantic.com/Nazareth.htm and
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9266/pauhrv.htm ("The LATIN PATRIARCHATE OF JERUSALEM assured me that all is untrue and all is lies"). A denial by the Palestinian Human Rights Organization is
here. Also see
http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/0persecution.htm for a list of related articles.
--
Another problem, though not conclusive on its own, is that Christians have always played a major role in the Palestinian nationalist organizations. The PLC has 6 Christians (last I heard), and there are many senior Christians in the PLO. Arafat's wife is Christian. Of course there aren't too many Christians in the Islamic organizations like Hamas. --
Zero 12:02, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think the last part of the article (actually from "Islamic Persecutions of Christians" till the very end) is not encyclopedic. Even though the facts may be (or are) true, they ought to be summarized. Moreover, even though the facts be real, I guess the term "persecution" has to be used with utmost care lest we (the wikipedia) should be making unfair generalizations. Remember that the WP is not a manual of History (least of Contemporary History).
I do not know who inserted those lists of facts, but I would delete them as they are from the page, because WP is not either a collection of events.
Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me. Obviously the above does not refer to the Romans or "disappeared cultures", which may not get hurt. You can check my contributions elsewhere to check my POV here (which is not "persecution denial" or "anti-christian"). Hope this helps. Pfortuny 16:42, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Pfortuny writes "Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me."
I have moved these two paragraphs from the article to here for discussion.
Um, I am not aware of any time or period in history where scientists have persecuted the Chrisitan community! Even more odd, this paragraph gives no examples. It seems incoherent. RK
These two sentences are too vague to have any meaning. RK 21:53, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)
You can't simply delete all these sources, quotes and websites, call them a "pack of lies", and claim that we must look at less biased sources. On what grounds are you accusing every one of these deleted sources of being lies and fabrications? It is well known that Christians are persecuted in Egypt and Malaysia. Please back up your claims, or the material will have to be restored. RK 22:41, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
Did you even check the "sources" I deleted? Does this site (the only source given for all the persecution allegations) look like an objective source to you (let alone one of a quality worthy of being quoted here?) Conversely, does this site, which I linked to a copy of at atheism.about.com, strike you as reasonably reliable? Well, the latter confirms that the only "severe punishment" imposed by the government on converts to Christianity in Egypt is a refusal to recognize this as changing their legal status, and reveals no evidence at all of persecution of Christians in Malaysia. As to the interview, claiming that people not of your own religion are infidels is scarcely persecution, or all countries adhering to major Abrahamic faiths would be hotbeds of persecution. - Mustafaa 22:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. These links are much more helpful than the ones previously in the article. I'll see if I can put together something on the topic, if you don't beat me to it. - Mustafaa 06:03, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"F. Conybeare's translation of Monk Stratego's account of the Persian Empire's sack of Jerusalem (614) claims the Jews took the opportunity to persecute the Christians." now that User:Amys has suppressed the entire quote, this looks like an unsupported assertion. Even the author's name is untraceable. Was that the intention? Wetman 03:02, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Christians and in particular Christianity have also been persecuted with the arrival of Western Science. Many prominent men have persecuted it, and in return were persecuted by them/it. One prominent example or artifacts are the Inquisition, which the most gruesome torture is to be seen, and Gallieo, who was threatened to withdraw his theory that earth is not the center of the universe or face excommunication, and also Bertrand Russell, who has wrote "Why I am not a Christian" and has been put in jail several times in his life, mainly for reasons unrelated to Christianity." How is the practice of science related to this material, already covered elsewhere? Wetman 20:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
lol, isnt the Galileo thing about Christians persecuting Scientists instead of the other way round-Anon
Except Galileo was himself a member of the church who persecuted him, so it could really go either way.
"In March 2004, many largely Muslim Albanians attacked over thirty Christian churches and monasteries in Kosovo, killed at least thirty Christians, and burned hundreds of Christians' homes, over the course of about five days. One NATO commander said it verged on ethnic cleansing of Serbians. Others compared it to Kristallnacht. Over 150 Christian churches and monasteries were destroyed in the five years prior to this incident. See Unrest in Kosovo, and http://www.kosovo.net." I dispute that this is persecution of Christian, as Christians, at all: rather, it's old-fashioned ethnic violence by a group (Albanians) with a Muslim majority and large Catholic minority against another group (Serbs) which is characterized by adherence to Orthodoxy. - Mustafaa 20:40, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Fair argument, but I haven't heard of any attacks on Catholic churches or monasteries in Kosovo, and while I can't find the statistics for Kosovo itself, I know a large proportion of Albanians are Catholics. To my mind, that aspect of it suggests an ethnic rather than religious conflict. - Mustafaa 19:45, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This quote, for instance, suggests a Serb-specific attack, though the article tries to minimize that angle:
According to the numbers in that article, there are 65,000 Catholics, 130,000 remaining Orthodox Christians, and another 250,000 Orthodox Christians who only recently fled and have been unable to return. I suspect that there simply aren't that many specifically Catholic churches and monasteries to attack; perhaps the Catholics and Orthodox are arguing about proper possession of the same churches.
The same article revives a topic from our earlier discussion of Egypt: apparently former Muslims are being beaten in Kosovo simply because they converted to Christianity. Perhaps this should be added to the article as well? And isn't this more evidence of an active anti-Christian hostility rather than just an anti-Serb hostility? Wesley 03:06, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Persecution of converts I would accept as clearly belonging here, though I'd like to see more verification first. However, I'm not so sure about burning of Orthodox churches; the other aspect of this is that the Catholics are Albanian, while the Orthodox are conspicuously not. - Mustafaa 06:44, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The whole section on persecution in the Soviet Union needs severe editing. The promotion by the state of anti-Christian propaganda in schools does not constitute "persecution" any more than the teaching of religion in schools "persecutes" atheists or those of other faiths. Both arguably are a perversion of schools' duty to educate but should be discussed under "religious/anti-religous propaganda". The failure of the Orthodox Church to revive after the fall of Communism is attributed to successful persecution. This is just speculation. It COULD be due to successful propaganda - but decades of pro-Communist propaganda had little lasting effect after the fall of the USSR.
This section should discuss alleged cases of people being executed, exiled, imprisoned, thrown out of work, being socially ostracised, etc for their religious beliefs. Exile 11:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No response. Does anyone agree with me? disagree?
Exile 22:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The statement that Kosovar Albanian Muslims are abandoning the Muslim faith is refuted in the article cited which documents inter-faith dialogue in Kosovo http://www.essex.ac.uk/armedcon/story_id/000164.html. This is irrelevant to an article aboout the persecution of Christians in any case. The added statement that Kosovar Albanians converted to Islam in the 17th and 18th century isn't cited in the article either and is irrelevant to this article on the persecution of Christians as well. For this reason I am deleting it, please stick to the topic. Moah 11:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I just updated the URL for the quote "Jesus, too, says John, really committed suicide, ...". However, this seems a very whacky source for several reasons:
I have made some extensive editions under 'non-biblical sources' for persecutions in the Roman Empire. I changed the heading title to 'Rise of Persecution in the Roman Empire,' because I feel that this title expressed more effectively what the author had been attempting to communicate in the underlying paragraphs (i.e. that persecution became widespread in the Roman Empire through imperial influences, hostility by the Roman public, etc.) I hope this was okay. Also, I deleted a paragraph under this heading because it was composed of a statement by Tacitus which was misquoted. I elaborated on the nature of persecution under Nero from A.D. 64-68, beginning with the great Fire at Rome. I would like to suggest that persecution in the Roman Empire be broken down into the reign(s) of various emperors, simply because imperial edicts and influences bore so much weight on the nature of persecution at this time. What do you think? I hope I didn't take too many liberties with my deletions. Sarah20 17:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, I deleted the following paragraph:
Some comminators believe that it is unlikely that such hatred of an obscure sect could have developed so rapidly, especially since this obscure sect did not have a distinctive name for itself and was considered by outsiders to be part of a much larger sect, Judaism. Although Church Father's emphatically try to make the case for widespread persecution of Christians at their present time and in the past, no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century, when it is quoted by the apologist Sulpicius Severus in a work replete with anachronisms and fanciful miracles. Indeed, some "Christians", if one could call the sect in its early stages of development that, may indeed have been persecuted for their religious ideals, though it would have been mere venting of Roman anti-Semitism at the obscure "Jewish" sect after the costly and foolhardy revolts in Judea, and not particular hatred of these people for worshipping "Christus."
The author of this passage is trying to say too many things at once, and most of his/her statements are speculative at best. First of all, to call into question the reality of persecution under Nero is to deny the validity of all of the writings of Tacitus on this subject; Philostratus mentions it as well. The statement that "no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century" is utterly false. sarah 18:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
In the section about persecution in the Roman Empire in the second century, the statement is made that: It should be noted that today massive numbers of martyrs claimed by the early Church during these persecutions are not generally accepted by scholars. I would like this to be cited, because I am not sure if "massive numbers" are claimed in the primary sources. If I do not hear back on this point, I will make the necessary corrections. -- LawrenceTrevallion 01:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I am revising the paragraph on the desire of some Christians to be martyred. I disagree with the provided analysis, which is: But the Christians, following Tertullian's dicta that "martyrdom is required by God," forced their own martyrdom so they could die in an ecstatic trance: "Although their tortures were gruesome, the martyrs did not suffer, enjoying their analgesic state." For one thing, Tertullian is not arguing for a death in an "ecstatic trance," but attempting to prove that martyrdom is good (Ad Scorpiace, Chp. 5). Besides, to only cite Tertullian here is to misrepresent Christianity's view of martyrdom since Tertullian was an extremist. Also, to say that the Christian martyrs were seeking an "analgesic state" seems insulting to the martyrs. At the very least, if the claim is going to be made, it should be supported with evidence and counter-arguments provided. I will add some material later, but I will delete this for now. -- LawrenceTrevallion 01:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
Further state persecutions were desultory until the persecution under Diocletian and more so Galerius that began in 303 AD. The persecution under Decius from the winter of 250 to the following spring of 251 martyred Pope Fabian, Bishop of Rome, involved Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, in controversy, and figures large in the founding myths of the seven bishops sent to Christianize Gaul, but finds no confirmation outside the vita of Cyprian composed by Pontius the deacon and writings in the hagiographic tradition.
The first sentence is inaccurate. I do not think Decius' persecution can be labeled as "desultory" since it was Empire-wide. Also, the second sentence I found confusing. I did leave the quotation from Gregory, but I find it odd to be using a description from someone writing in the fifth century. I will leave it for now, but unless there is serious objection, I will delete it. (Maybe it could be replaced with Eusebius?) -- LawrenceTrevallion 03:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather broad statement, but the section on Russia today seems rather non-NPOV (it says that Russians today don't take their religion "seriously").
The article should aslo expain why Christianity was attacked. For example the Tsars controlled the Church and claimed God wanted them to be slaves. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"The Church was falsely portrayed as obscurantist and opposed to the findings of science."
Is it quite neutral to include _falsely_? Hegel and Heidegger are still debated. There is a long Christian tradition of "faith as the substance of things not seen" and finding blessed those who "believe without having seen." Referring to "the Church" could be interpreted as the Rus. Orth. Ch. or the body of Christians in general. There are many groups of Christians who have been inarguably obscurantist and anti-scientific. This statement should be clarified.
"Much has been made of alleged Christian belief in the literal Creation account in the book of Genesis which the pro-Darwinian textbooks ridiculed."
Cite? The Soviet Union only reluctantly accepted the neo-Darwinian synthesis, because it went against the Marxist doctrine of the malleability of people depending on their environment. Depending on what time period is mentioned, it would be more likely that the textbooks would have criticized Darwinian evolution as Western propaganda and supported Lysenkoism instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Why alleged? There were plenty of Christians who believed in a literalist creationist account.
The reader of Wikipedia should note that this subsection has been deleted from the article, as it did not suit local POV. -- Wetman 04:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Needs to be re-added. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what the section was about, but this article personally seems to be lacking persecution between Christian denominations, anything I've found so far has been far too narrow, and I hasn't had info on what I'm looking for. Thanks, Silles Sellis 15:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
something about the persecution of non-Orthodox by the Orthodox during the Byzantine Empire and in Russia (and elsewhere) might balance it out further. 140.184.192.117 16:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
okay. the only problem I have had with this article is that they classify MORMONS as CHRISTIANS. NOT TRUE if you bother to read about the two completely DIFFERENT religions, you would see that they are similar, but THEY ARE NOT THE SAME—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.102.250.136 ( talk • contribs)
I'm not sure how relevant this is. But it is worth noting that wikipedia and this article in particular was cited in the UK Houses of Parliament by Anne McKintosh (Con: Vale of York).
Nothern Ireland is also rife with instances of Christian on Christian sectarian violence.
I dispute including this:
as an example of Jews persecuting Christians, because at that time no Jew thought that Jesus or Judas or Peter or anyone was not Jewish. It is certainly true that by the time of Paul (i.e. not much later) Christianity had emerged as a Jewish sect that Pharisees did persecute. Good scholarship means avoiding anachronisms: we have to distinguish between Jews whom Christians came to identify with the origins of their religion; Jewish Christians at a time of sectarian conflic among Jews; and Christians, a new religion clearly separate from Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I am glad you agree. For the record, though, I do not see this as the idiotic act of anti-semetic Christians. I see it instead as representing the fact that most people, at least most Christians, are actually pretty ignorant of the history of their own religion (I've certainly seen the same with Jews). Wikipedia is open to everyone, including dilettantes, which means that we will always have to clean up stuff like this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
What is your source? I ask because this is the opposite of what historians I have read argue. Romans almost never did anything for fear of Jewish revolt, and I know of no evidence of their killing dissident Jews because they feared if they did not other Jews would revolt. On the contrary, Romans killed Jews who they saw as threatening Roman rule, and Jews for the most part were terrified of doing anything that would incur Roman wrath - there is plenty of historical evidence for this and none that I know of for the view you espouse. Fredrickesn argues that Jews prosecuted Christians because Christians were preaching sedition against the Romans and if the Romans found out (or felt Jews were sanctioning this) it would lead to more violent Roman response - as hadhappened many times in the past. Jtpaladin seems to be relying on the old anti-Semetic canard that blames the Jews and sees the Romans as blameless. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
My point is that the Romans never coddled the ews out of fear. Moreover, they always prosecuted sedition. Roman oppression of Christians did not begin with Nero, they began with Jesus, a Jew executed for sedition. Jesus's followers who believed that Jesus' kingdom was at hand were preaching sedition and were likewise prosecuted by Romans. As long as Rome ruled Judea indirectly (through the High Priest) it expected the High priest to turn over anyone suspected of sedition or threatening the civil order - this would include all Jews suspected of such crimes, including early Christians (who were Jews themselves). The claim that "Jesus had been found innocent by the Roman governor and the Romans did not consider the Christians any sort of threat until prodded by Pharisee Jews into action" is not accepted by historians (see Sanders, Vermes, Fredricksen, Crossan), it is a claim Christains made only when they broke with Judaism and began seeking converts among Romans - obviously, it was counterproductive to identify themselves with seditious Jews, or to criticize roman authorities. After the Bar Kochba revolt Christians would have found it very hard to get converts from among the Romans if they identified with Jewish sedition and blamed Romans for Jesus' death - so they reversed it, exculpating the Romans and blaming the Jews. This not only made it easier to attract Roman converts, it transformed Romes political anti-Judeanism into early religious anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no single word in the following sentence, "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work," that invokes Christianity, or identifies Hitler as a Christian. This particular sentence proves nothing pertinant to this article. As DNicholls suggests, I think we need to distinguish between an act that comes from one's beliefs as a Christian, versus acts which, whatever their motivation, are justified in various ways (nationalism, Christianity, something else). If, after taking these two points into account, one can still argue that Hitler was a Christianity and that Christianity led to his anti-Semetic acts (and by the way, virtually all of the literature on anti-Semitism and the Holocauset argues against this view) then we need to do two things (1) cite the appropriate source -- what researcher has published this interpretation/calim, and in what publication; (2) we had better start making more nuanced distinctions among Christians. Look, many Christians used Christianity to justify slavery in the antebellum US. But one cannot, from that fact, infer that "Christianity is responsible for slaver." Many if not most abolitionists were Christians too. The only logical interpretation of this analogous case, it seems to me, is that people had their own reasons for supporting or opposing slavery that had nothing to do with religion, but they all felt that they had to justify (dare I say rationalize) their positions through Christian rhetoric. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I think it's amusing, really. Everyone agrees that Hitler was a madman, and no one would take his speeches on German/Arian superiority, or Jewish inferiority, or anything else, seriously. But when it comes to Hitler's religion, Atheists automatically claim that a handful of sentences spoken by Hitler himself in political speeches and rallies are all the proof we need. I guess no theory is too far-fetched when you need a reason to smear Christianity, right guys? Ritchy 23 July 2005
Restored Hitler section. Even if Revolucion proves correct in claiming that Hitler was Christian (an extremely dubious idea), that's not a reason to delete it: it would belong under "Persecution of Christians by Christians". - Mustafaa 22:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Hitler made many religious references in his speeches, but this should in no way shape or form be used to suggest that he was actually a Christian himself. I've always considered Hitler a puppet master who played on other's religious faiths to make them tools of his agenda. I know of several personal quotes by various nazis showing that they held a very warped, twisted, and ethnocentric form of christianity, but as for Hitler himself, his personal notes always seem to convey that he knew how to use religion to manipulate people, not that he was religious. -- Lucavix 23:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Hitler was a Christian fanatic, as shown by his constant references to his religious beliefs, as were most Nazis."
I don't agree at all. As has been said before, Hitler despised religion, and used it to establish HIS philosophy, which may have been inspired by some aspects of Christianity (like the idea of a Creator, or the idea that God has a plan for humankind), but certainly not from Christianity's core message, which is a message of reconciliation, mercy, and love. Hitler called the Bible "the Jews' Book of lies" whereas most Christians value the Bible and consider it contains truth.
Nazis held, amongst others, a belief in "race cleansing", so to speak, as they murdered numerous disabled people for the sake of keeping the German race "pure". Such a notion - killing the weakest - is not only alien to Christianity, it's opposed to its teachings.
Most Nazis might well have come from a Christian background, but their beliefs and values certainly didn't reflect the Christian message. littl'un-- 217.136.222.210 13:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Is the issue whether the individual or group identified themselves as Christian, and persecuted people from that place, or whether they were actually Christians? If we are going to pick and choose based upon whether their actions "Reflected" the Christian message, we might as well stop attempting any unbiased inquiry here, because I seriously doubt we could even come up with an agreeable, unbiased definition of "the Christian message". Maybe we can call him a "Christian Extremist" or "Christo-fascist". -KST
Many people would dispute this. Conservative Protestants would argue that Hitler was a Mariolater - ie Roman Catholic. Some Protestants believe that Roman Catholicism is not a Christian religion.
Hitler was certainly a Christian in his own mind. The issue is whether considering yourself something actually means you are. And if not — why should the Muslims, Jews, or others persecuting Christians be considered as such? There certainly exist people who’ll say someone acting in that fashion is not a Muslim, not a Jew, etc.
Hitler not only functioned with the blessing of the Catholic Church, but demonizing Jews was common among Christians in the region at the time. It was that common perception, descended from religious thinkers such as Martin Luther (one of Hitler’s stated inspirations) and his tract The Jews and Their Lies, which inspired the campaigns against Jews in the first place. Hitler gave taxes from Catholics to the Catholic Church. Owing to his involvement with the church, he went after gays, outlawed abortion, and set discipline standards. The Nazis ordered that Christianity be taught in schools. Religious mottos were part of Nazi uniforms. German troops were often required to be blessed by Catholic priests before going out. The SS enforced discipline against heresy against church doctrine.
Not wanting Hitler to call himself Christian is understandable, but it’s too late to change history. He was an avowed Christian, and referenced his beliefs regularly, most notably in Mein Kampf. In the truest sense, it can be said that he isn’t Christian, but that doesn’t erase that he believed he was. -- Skyhawk0 08:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Many Catholic and Protestant leaders and congregants were imprisoned based on their religious beliefs (where those beliefs went against Nazi policy) and many ultimately perished in concentration camps. That Nazis persecuted individuals that qualify historically as Christians is fact, whether or not the Nazis considered themselves Christians. As you will see in articles like the one on the Protestant Reich Church, the Nazis also took positions extremely hostile to mainstream orthodox Christianity (Catholicsm, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism). A debate on who is and who isn't a "Christian" (self definining) isn't totally relevant here. However I do think a distinction should be made between the Christianity professed by the vast majority of professing Christians over 2000 years and Nazis who invented doctrines that nobody professed to believe before 1900. NB, even Lutheran and Catholic anti-Semitism was decidedly non-racial. Official doctrine was that a converted Jew was the same as a converted German, Spaniard, etc. To say that racial differences constitute spiritual differences would be considered a heresy against the stated anthropology of the Church. The disputed tag on this section is completely pointless in my view. I realize objectivity is difficult, but that tag only represents the fact that some extremely muddy thinking has occured on someone's part. If you want to be hostile to Christianity, go ahead, but at least think your position through.
"Catholicism and Nazism have a more complicated relationship than some might think. Hitler both despised and admired various aspects of the Roman Catholic Church. Though the Nazi movement was superficially areligious, even anti-religious, the Nazi's greatest piece of propaganda and self-aggrandizement, Leni Riefenstahl's 1934 film about the Nuremberg Party Rally, Triumph of the Will, is in many ways profoundly religious. The film both makes use of Catholic religious imagery and draws on the Catholic sacramental tradition to give dignity and legitimacy to its construction of Adolf Hitler as the "god" of the Nazi movement... Since the beginning, Catholicism and Nazism had an uncomfortable coexistence. They jarred long before Riefenstahl began filming Hitler's rally in the summer of 1934... The Concordat, along with many other more famous agreements and treaties signed by the Fuehrer, was quickly violated, and the Church was ineffective in protecting Catholics from all manner of religious and cultural harassment. Alfred Rosenberg, the closest Nazism as an ideology ever came to having a philosopher, was consistently and virulently anti-Catholic... Hitler himself was not purely or simply anti-Catholic or anti-Church, and certainly not so before his rise to power. He was a baptized Catholic, as was his propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, and a number of other prominent members of his administration. Interestingly, though both men rejected their Catholic faith and recognized that they had excommunicated themselves, neither ever formally left the Church and dutifully continued to pay church taxes until their respective deaths. Hitler's own mother, to whom he was very close, was a devoted Catholic, and Hitler received Catholic schooling during his childhood in Austria... In his extensive, often contradictory writings and "table-talk," Hitler reveals an ambivalent attitude toward the Catholic Church. As an institution on German soil, he is very much opposed to it, and he ridicules the teachings of Church fathers and the practice of the Catholic faith... he detested the doctrines, of the Roman Church... Institutionalized religion, in Hitler's view, was a waning phenomenon... " Extracted from Hitler & Triumph of the Will: A Nazi Religion in the Catholic Style by Jadwiga Biskupska (Cornell University). 11:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
In addition to cutting the meaningless paragraph discussed above, I also deleted a paragraph suggesting reasons for why Saul of Tarsus persecuted Christians. The reaons I did this is that none of the suggestions had any citations, and thus seemed to me to be original research. I know of only one explanation for the persecution. I added it, and provided the proper source. It would not surprise me at all that there be other suggestions as to why Saul persecuted Christians and I do hope that other editors will add them to that section -- along with citations. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting the Nazi section. It's pertinent. At best, your claim is controversial, so include a paragraph about why some would think Nazism counts as a Christian sect. [edit: Sorry about the multiple entries. Had a lag problem.]-- DNicholls 05:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The section is about persecution BY Christians. Ritchy’s comment about secular reasons is turning a blind eye to the direct involvement with the Catholic Church. If it has to be proven what someone believes (with their own words discounted) before they can be considered to persecute in the name of religion, then absolutely nothing belongs on this page.-- Skyhawk0 08:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support:
Support:
Consider the text already present in the "persecution of Christians by Christians" section. It begins by relating how the Roman Empire, after adopting Christianity as its state religion, proceeded to eliminate Christian groups with different theological dogmas from itself. It then describes later events in history, when the Roman Catholic Church authorized crusades against Christian groups who did not follow the same dogma, such as the Albigensian and the Orthodox.
These events have two things in common: They were acts of persecution authorized by a Christian group (the Christian Roman Empire in the first case, the Catholic Church in the second) and were done to impose a specific Christian dogma against all others. Those two conditions are necessary to an event to qualify it as persecution of Christians by Christians.
Now consider the text being debated. It related how the Nazi and Mussolini regimes persecuted Christianity. Before deciding if it should be moved to "persecution by Christianity", one must ask two questions. First, were these Christian regimes? No, they were not. The Nazi regime, most notably, tried to create its own Nazi mysticism to replace Christianity, which the party leaders viewed as a corrupting force and a threat. One might argue that these parties were only in power because a majority of the population of the nations allowed them, and that since these populations were Christian this makes them by extension Christian governments. But by this definition, every nation with a Christian majority has a Christian government by default; this means that every Western state in existence today is not led by a secular government but by a Christian one. This is a clearly false assessment. The second question we must ask is, was this persecution done for Christianity? No, it was not. This was persecution done to safeguard the interests of the party in power, and eliminate a possible threat to this power. This was not persecution done over differing interpretations of dogma, this was done purely for political gain.
The inescapable conclusion is that Nazi persecution of Christianity was not done by Christians, and was not done for Christian reasons. It was done by an anti-Christian group, for a secular reason: political power. Therefore does not belong in the "persecution by Christianity" section.
-- Ritchy 24 July 2005
Ritchy is completely off. The Nazis didn’t just happen to be Christian — they required the teaching of Christianity, celebrated it actively in their daily routine, pursued agendas based on it, and donated tax money directly to the Catholic Church. Under what Western governments does this scenario exist? No one put forward the majority religion of the electorate, and that strawman argument has no place here. The Nazis were emphatically not ‘anti-Christian’, rather incorporating and celebrating their Christianity widely.
It should be noted that the persecution specifically driven by Christianity is hard to separate from the very real power agenda that existed. Certainly the gays who died in concentration camps, were imprisoned, sent to work camps, castrated, and/or institutionalized were the result of a very specific Christian-inspired agenda — done under the auspices of the Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion.
Anyone in a power position could be said to be performing the acts they do in the name of power. Slrubenstein makes a great case. There are numerous grey shades to be navigated, and an article entitled “The Persecution of Christians by Other Christians Acting Specifically in the Name of Christianity With No Power Agenda” would be significantly sparser. As would ones about any other religion. The idea of applying a different standard to the article about Christianity than to those about other faiths is untenable, and it should be noted that those disagreeing with the standard applied in considering the Nazis Christian seem to have no issue with that same standard being applied to other religions.-- Skyhawk0 09:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
In regards to Skyhawk0's comments, the Nazi form of "Christianity" varies so greatly from Christianity it could hardly be considered Christian. All fundemental elements of Christianity; it purposes, ethics, values are completely subverted to a nationalistic, vanity driven pursuit of power and an ideal. The Nazi regime failed to bring the fruits of love, joy, peace, goodwill, long-suffering, etc but succeeded in bringing death, murder, slaughter, chaos, anger, rage, self-love, pride, deceit, rape, love of the motherland, etc. It is true that some Christians may have been duped by a fastitic conception of perfection. However, it is not true that the asserted ideas of Nazi Germany are consistent in anyway with Christianity. Perverting the ideas of a religion into a tool and a gimic intended to control people is what we refer to as a cult. The Nazi movement if it is to be viewed in a religious fashion should be viewed as a cult. We could go into all of the changes to Christianity made by the Nazi movement, but it can be left at the heart of Christianity was removed and whatever Nazi "Christianity" celebrated was something else.
By the way Skyhawk0, you are far from neutral on this issue. Combatting homosexuality and abortion doesn't mean the government was religious. Homosexuality and abortion can impact population growth. Nazi Germany did not want fewer Germans for their conquest efforts. More strength for this argument can be drawn from the fact that Nazi Germany euthanized disabled and mentally handicapped people. Religious beliefs that value life apart from stage of development and quality of life were obviously not responsible for the "pro-life" stance you say the Nazi's took. I think it is helpful to not just recite propoganda in the form of reasoned debate. -- DBdowner 10:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
There is quite a few sections under dispute and have been there for a long time so this is my attempt to discuss and solve the disputes if they still exist. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
The current title is 1 of two neutral statements that I believed could be used. The second would be the "Jewish persecution of the developing religion known as "The Way"(could be better worded) . The section should describe Jewish persection of "The Way". Keep in mind not all memembers were Jewish many were Protestant and by the time of the Roman persecution I believe the numbers show most were Gentile. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Protestantism did not exist until the 15th and 16th Century...The term the Bible uses throughout is Christian. (Anon. 63.19.101.39)
"Persecution may refer to unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, or execution. It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property, or incitement to hate Christians." Ecto 10:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit lost as why this is disputed. Islamic persecution undoubtly existed just like Christian persecution of Muslims also exists. The biggest problem with the section is that it is way too modern. What about the Arabian empires persecution of Christians.
This article only plays into the sentiments of modern Muslims. This is a blind predisposition, clearly non-NPOV, to think Christians are the persecutors and Islam has just in recent times reacted in a natural "eye for and eye" form of justice. The article totally negates how Islam terrorized Christians since the early 7th century. This persecution was through war and forced conversions throughout North Africa and into Europe did not end until Charles de Martel defeated the Islamic Army at the Battle of Tours in 732 ad. I believe this era is referred to by Muslims as the 1st Islamic Caliph. I believe they call their current efforts the 3rd! 209.91.13.188 13:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I copied a few sentences from the Historical persecution by Muslims page, which has a lot more information than this section. I got rid of the claim that the standard of living was "fairly reasonable" and that "officially they weren't persecuted", since that is made ludicrous by the subsequent statement that Christian children were regularly taken away and made soldier-slaves for the Sultan! The other page's description of the Ottaman empire as having limited tolerance punctuated by bloody repression is much more accurate. Stdarg 20:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This exists no doubt. In Bahrain also citizens are required to be Muslims despite a .1% or something like that Christian population. Saudi Arabia's Chrisitan church is largely underground and Christians are not allowed to step foot in the holiest parts of the country. In most Islamic countries prostalization is illegal, which is discrimination of all religions but the second largest group is Christianity in most of the countries making it relevant. In Egypt some Christians have been targeted in news reports but should not be considered a common occurence in the section. The exile of Pope Shenouda III is notable, relevant and neutral. The biggest problem however is repetition.(mentioning the same type of discrmination in seperate sentences for all the countries. Easier and more NPOV to mention it once as an overview.) The Phillipene incident without more evidence is not worth keeping. The Palestine one is a difficult and controversial issue and should be dealt with more care. In the simplest terms to get rid of the tag is the following. 1. Rename it to Discrimination and persection of Christians in Middle Eastern and South East Asian countries. 2. Avoid repetition 3. Word in a more NPOV manner providing the reasoning of the case followed by what happened.
Sounds like your suggesting it be edited more "Politically Correct". If they are stated facts then they are stated facts. This is being slowly turned into a religeous debate. SIte the facts and you will see that facts are neutral..we may not like them but they are what they are. Finding more careful language is a subtle distortion of facts is it not?
I'm surprised this is mentioned. There are far more notable events than this event nonetheless it did happen to Muslims and Christians. The Kosovo War was IMHO a war of ethnicity, religion, and separationism. I'm not sure what is disputed about it, however it might be a bit more NPOV to mention the Muslim persecution as well.
This section, before my changes, was making unclear statements about the occupation of Kosovo (and the Balkan Peninsula) by the Ottoman Empire and the modern conflict in the region. It was suggesting that at the time of the Ottoman invasion that the population was over 90% Albanian. This is false. See " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo". Serbians were in the overwhelming majority.
This isn't under NPOV but this section is way too short. Persecution of Christians in China has existed for probably a century and 1/2 at one point even eliminating Christianitys existence in Eastern China. It needs to be expanded.(The house churches could use a bit more info too)
I erased even more of this section, since it was written in a blatantly subjective manner. Better to put nothing at all than something like "The Chinese did it because they were mean."
I understand why this is disputed because of little documentation coming from these countries on this type of info. Christian persecution is known to exist, in North Korea, Cambodia, Laos, Lebanon, and discrimination in the Maldives.(not sure about persecution). Vietnam is likely. Now I'm not familiar with Sri Lanka, Bhutan, or Afghanistan but Nepal should be mentioned as it is likely far more notable than these three. I believe North Korea, Nepal, and Lebanon all merit there own sections (possibly Cambodia). The others probably don't need to be mentioned. If the others are kept to keep NPOV it should be mentioned that some believe persecution has taken place in the following countries. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
People should remember that christians cause ruin for themselves by intentionally targetting the poor and the vunerable. Many missionaries flocked to tsunami-hit areas and converted many poor people to christianity in return for aid. Also these groups are keen that damaged churches are re-built more quickly than other buildings. I have seen all these events taking place. Christians therefore should know that such activity angers many people including buddhists and hindus who are peace-loving (as shown by their good behaviour in the West). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.63.5 ( talk • contribs) 23:31, 7 September 2005
I don't understand how killing missionairies is persecution of Christians. If someone goes to another country to try and convert them, surely they are bound to receive friction. I think the sections where that is the only "persecution" should be removed. It's not so much persecution as failed missions. Flangazor 06:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with some of the above opinions. Killing missionaries is murder, it is not persectuion. Persecution, at least in this context, is done by one GROUP to another GROUP. My 2 cents is that the article should focus on persecution of Christians who live in predominantly non-Christian countries. See the wholesale massacres and suppressions of the Kirishitan groups for an example of persecution. -- circuitloss 20:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I've taken out the word "murder and enslavement" and replaced them with "persecution" because I think they are too emotional. I also added some of the context of the Darfur conflict so that points out some of the other deaths and possible causes. I think that the article has to be neutral if it's goin' to be taken seriously and at the moment it isn't very neutral.
I also added "alleged Islamists", because the government of Sudan is officially secular and portraying the army as "Islamists" presents a very simplified view of the conflict, which deniers of the genocide in Sudan could use to discredit opposing views. I've also made a few changes to the other sections including changing the titles from "murder and enslavement", because once again I think it's too emotional.
I didn't really look at the "persecution in Indonesia" section and it seems to me someone needs to take a look at that, too.
XYaAsehShalomX 13:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I understand that, at least in the early days of Christianity, it was legitimately persecuted. But the modern day examples are simply random incidents of hate crimes, i.e. one missionary getting killed by "Hindu nationalists". Yeah, whatever. I don't see how that makes it notable. By this reasoning you could make an article on "Persecution of X", where X is any group whose members have been treated differently because of some characteristic of X. For instance, you could write an article on "Persecution of Redskins fans" because wearing a Redskins jersey at a Cowboys game can get you beaten up. -- Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Great point!
I found the following at the end of this little peice of info:
" [5] I love you."
I simply erased it because it had no pertinence to the subject.-- Brandeis 21:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following was found directly in the text of the article after the statement that in WWII prodistants were persectuted becuase of percieved ties to the west: "That's not really true - my grandfather was an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army in the 30s and 40s and had no problems." This kind of material belongs on the Talk page, and has since been removed from the text of the article itself. Thanatosimii 03:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The use of the word "effected" in "Persecution of Christians in Sudan" (at the end) is incorrect.
There has been some serious vandalism by Maintenance who has deleted the content of the Historical persecution by Christians article and replaced it with content from this article, then renamed it as persecution of Christians - leading to the absurd merger suggestion between articles that are supposed to refer to opposed concepts/events (though of course there always was some overlap because much persecution of Christians has been by other Christians). Ideally we should have identical titles for these articles - both "Historial Persecution...", or both just "Persecution...". I have tried to reverse things, but have, sadly created a bit of a mess myself by cutting-and-pasting, leading to some pretty chaotic redirects and loss of edit histories. Paul B 14:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
"Modern Anti-Christian activity by the Jews Jewish filmmakers have been responsible for producing films attacking the core beliefs of Christianity such as " The Last Temptation of Christ" and " The Pope Must Die" by the Weinstein Brothers.These clear attacks on Christianity and on Catholicism have been criticized by '''Chrisitian''' activists. Some '''prominant''' '''Rabbi's''' have claimed that the New Testament is Anti-Semitic which is a ridiculous charge.
The machinegunning of the Church of the Church of the Nativity by Israeli soldiers when Palestianians were seeking refuge inside has been criticized by Christians as a purposeful symbolic attack on Christandom.The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem is one of the holiest sites in Christianity.
Christian Palestinians have been heavily persecuted by the '''Israeli's''' eventhough they have never participated in a single suicide bombing or assasination of any Israeli.
- 26k - 39k [http:// www.commondreams.org/views/120300-102.htm - 16k ]"
Other points of interest are that the Weinstein brothers aren't Jewish except under the standards of the Nuremburg laws and Christian Palestinians aren't persecuted by anyone except their Islamic brethren.
I'm deleting this, if someone literate wants to add something similar go ahead.
I deleted this:
"...one of the biggest in terms of number of victims, and was a direct inspiration for Hitler's Final Solution. However, it was often ignored or given little significance by many Western governments for most of the 20th Century, due to political pressure from Turkey, one of the West's few allies in the Middle-East. And although Western governments have begun recognising the genocide in the past few years, Turkey still officially denies that it took place. However, Turkey has begun to debate the genocide in public as a result of pressure from the EU, recently (September 2005) holding a conference to discuss it."
First off, this is a history of the debate about Christian persecution in the Ottoman Empire, not a history of the persecution itself. It's irrelevant. Second, the Ottomans' massacres of the Armenians and other groups during the Great War and War of Independence were not a direct inspiration for Hitler's final solution. To say that is to absolutely misunderstand Hitler's character and the nature of European anti-Semitism, and it's insulting. There is one quotation attributed to Hitler talking about the Armenians--that's hardly proof of a direct inspiration. Europeans had been killing Jews for years, and it's simply atrocious to make this claim.
If anyone wants to discuss what the Ottomans and Turks did to Christians, fine, but if we can keep the issue focused and historical, that would be best. Hashshashin 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
how does this qualify for persecution. nids 07:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Besides the recurring issues of POV and factual accuracy, this article has begun to suffer from many, many edits that result in a poor layout and choppy flow. I propose reorgainizing it so that it flows better and presents the subject in a more logical progression. I'm posting this as a heads up that I intend to start working on this in a few days, and want to make sure that my edits don't offend anyone. At this point, I don't intend any major content edits, but just a reorganization. That said, I will try to add sources where I can, and relate the references directly to the statements being made (this is what everyone involved with this article needs to consider doing...there's a huge "references" section, but it's not footnoted to specific statements in the text, and for a subject this sensitive, such direct referencing is really essential).
As I reorganize, though, I will be looking at individual sections that are tagged as POV or neutrality problems, or are otherwise disputed, to try and see how this can be resolved. My goal here is to produce a high-quality article. Whether individual readers dispute the reality or not of persecution is not a subject for the article itself, but for this talk page. Persecution of Christians is a documented problem in this world, just as much as persecution of other ethnic and religious groups. Therefore, in the interest of studying the problem and its causes and ramifications, a high-quality, NPOV article is essential for the integrity of the Wikipedia project.
Lastly, about tags: several sections are tagged with dispute or neutality tags. Each tag, ideally, should have a corresponding discussion - or at least a statement by the tagging editor - on this talk page as to why that tag is there, what the specific problem is, and a proposed (if possible) solution. Tags without corresponding talk page entries are essentially vandalism, because they denegrate the section without being justified. Consequently I will be removing them. If you've added a tag, please add a section to this talk page.
Oh, one more thing...once this talk page gets to 30 subjects, I'll be archiving it, as well. Thanks, and please let me know any suggestions you may have. Akradecki 15:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the edits by an anonymous user. If you wish, we can discuss the changes here, but I saw them as POV. LawrenceTrevallion 13:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me add, I do not wish to seem imperialistic or rude, but I do not think the edits were appropriate. If you wish, we can discuss it, but I would like some citations for your sources. LawrenceTrevallion 13:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, sorry guys for all of my mess here. I went back to the edits by the anonymous user, as I do not want to be rude. However, I would like to discuss these changes as I do not agree with them. For instance, what "Christian Zealots" are being referred to in the Jewish Persecution section? Also, I think the part about medieval persecutions being inspired by these needs some citation. LawrenceTrevallion 13:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a question about the use of the New Testament as evidence of Judeo-Christian persecution; is it entirely plausible to use a single document, particularly one as controversial as the Bible, as the basis for such an article? It seems particularly ironic that the use of the New Testament is unquestioned, whilst the general Wikipedian consensus is that if you haven't acquired a suitable, recognizable, and above all demonstrable source, your additions are stricken and you are lampooned by the rest of the community.
The only way to resolve this inconsistency appears to be to remove the Biblican evidence of the persecution of Christians, and instead rely upon the latest historiographical evidence and theories. -- Australia, 22 October, 2006
The Bible is a well established historical document, even if you disregard the theological aspects of the material. The Bible has been used as a historical record by untold numbers of historians and therefore quotes from it are as valid as any other historical record. Jtpaladin 17:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
If Wikipedia can cite Diodorus, Curtius and Tacitus, then there's absolutely no reason not to cite the Bible. If you have a view about the Bible's reliability, you will be able to find an appropriate forum air your views. As matters stand it is a source. The referenced "consensus among the community" does not exist, except by redefining the community to "those that agree with my point of view". Sittingduck123 18:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Note: This is not to be anti-Semitic, but to in the end understand why the conflict other agressions between Christians and Jews arose
I have not read numerous martyrdom accounts from the time of the early Christians, but in the martyrdom account of St. Polycarp circa 160, there is a line (13:1) in which it mentions that the Jews also participated in gathering wood for the fire. I thought a mentioning of such would show the continuity the Jewish persecution of Christians after St. Paul and the book of Acts. I took a college course of the Early Western Civilization, which in it we were told that there were not very many direct persecutions of the Christians, i.e, Roman soldiers going out and looking for Christians, but citizens (and not infrequently Jews) reported them to officials to have them tried. I don't know if this is the most correct, but if it is, I believe there should be a mentioning of how it was not uncommon (nor unreasonable) for Jews to help in the persecution of Christians. I say not unreasonable, because from their perspective we can assume it was like Sauls, viewing Christianity as a heretical offshoot. Please tell me what you think, about adding this in under "Jewish persecution of Christians." Also I don't fully think it describes the motives of the Jews, to say they only persecuted the Christians becuase it was "seditious" from Rome. It really was a differing view between two different groups, each considering the other incorrect or inferior.-- Francis419jn655 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thats stupid. Persecution means "persistent mistreatment of an individual or group by another group". "Other christians" are obviously not candidates for christian persecution... Fresheneesz 06:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
May I point out that while NPOV forks are not allowed, content forks are? May I also point out that at 61 kb this article is already long, getting to be too long? Then I propose a solution: have one article on persecution of Christians by non-Christians, and another article on conflicts of oppression or whatever you want to call it by one group of Christians against another? Both of these are important topics in "the history of Christianity" and I would suggest viewing them as just that - a series of articles on important aspects of Christian history, separate but linked. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>I noticed this oversight as well. Christians are the biggest source of Christian persecution (and not the ACLU). Ask any Mormon. Ask any Branch Davidian. Ask any of the Watchtower folks. For that matter ask an Irishman about Christian persecution by fellow Christians. Or simple read your history book.
As far as modern/current histroy goes, Evengelical (and other) churches publish an enormous amount of literature and dedicated web space portraying the Mormon church is a cult, the Catholic church is a fraud, the Pope is Satan (in dashing garb), and every body in between is evil as well. Of course, the rule is that a Christian religion with LOTS of members is a mainstream religion, those with smaller numbers are cults. The guys with the big numbers get to make the rules. Anyhow, this article (and our readers) would benefit from a section on Sectarian Persecution. Christianity has a long and rich history of eating it's own, why not add that to the article? Mr Christopher 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I took a round and tagged a few of the places where no source is given. I also noticed that many of the sources given seem a bit unreliable, but that's another issue. // Liftarn
I am somewhat amused to find that "Christian Whining" redirects to "Persecution of Christians". While it doesn't bother me much, I figured I should bring it to someone's attention in case it was something that needed to be removed.-- Raguleader 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The article will benefit from basic copy editing and fact checking. I have started to do so and could use assistance. Majoreditor 22:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Echoing Majoreditor's comments above, there are three possibly-non-neutral tags left on this page. Non-neutral tags are not here just to highlight controversial areas, nor to show that a particular pov would wish that section to read differently. These tags have been here practically since time eternal, and we really need a census of them, so to speak, to see if still valid. If offending pov sentances cannot be produced, they sould be removed within a certain timeframe. Thanatosimii 18:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There's an edit war going on over the content of the India section. Will the involved parties please attempt to resolve issues through discussion on this talk page? Thanks, 23:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Every body should chill a little bit especially with regard to the anti-conversion laws in India paragraph. Remember the three revert rule. I think it is time to discuss whether that paragraph should be in or not. -- Selket Talk 13:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
All the Reversions dealing with the India section are a waste of Wikipedia resources and for that reason I would have no problem with locking the Article - MINUS the India section of course. People donate funds to operate Wikipedia, not for authors to have Reversion wars. Chrisbak 05:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "Persecution of early Christians by Romans", "Persecutions narrated in the New Testament", there is a reference to John the apostle as the "writer of the Book of Revelation" which should be deleted. The author of Revelation could one of several people as that article says. If there is no objection that phrase will be deleted. Chrisbak 05:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of locking articles, but the current edit war makes me think otherwise. The parties involved have made no effort to discuss their differences on this talk page. If you lay out your issues on the talk page you can engage other editors who can help you reach a consensus. Majoreditor 13:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you know of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution? That is the way we resolve disputes in Wikipedia. It's far more effective than editwarring. Place request for comments, ask for third opinions, request informal mediation, etc. Majoreditor 17:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
How about persecution by secularists, e.g. persecution against Rocco Buttiglione and Ruth Kelly? Hammer1000 09:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Also at the end of the section Persecution by Christians these 3 sentences describe political opposition and I vote for deleting them from the article: "At the end ofFrom the 1990's on, fundamentalist sects in the US have claimed a growing hostility towards Christianity, based on enforcement of the principle of separation of church and state. A so-called war on Christmas is often cited as an example, along with frequent disputes concerning religious displays on government property. Arguments on both sides are difficult to document and may be frequently exaggerated." Chrisbak 06:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest to exclude Japan from this article as it is covered in History of Persecution of Christians article Sarcelles 17:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Persecution of Christians/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Mormonism
Hi Olaf, I am the author of the material you have removed twice. The material you describe as being irrelevant is very much relevant due to it describing the reason for Mormon persecution, which is the purpose and scope of the article section. The section was not only corrected to remove some minor historical errors, but also expanded to adequately provide and properly articulate a full contect for understanding. There is a trememndous amount of misinformation about the Mormon religion that prevails on the internet. There is great interest to ensure that Wikipedia articles are informative in proper context and clarity. The sections that you have removed were not only very relevant, but critical in pointing out the very reasons that mainstream Christian persecution agaisnt Mormons exists.. - Highwinder |
Last edited at 16:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 21:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
People, please keep your personal opinions to yourself and post only verifiable facts. Not skewed facts from religious literature but scholarly materials please. You peoples personal bias be gettin in the way. This site's purpose should be to educate the youth who will undoubtably be using it for research as it is among the first websites to come up when searching for facts on Google. Please keep your religious problems to your organized religion's blogs and such. 203.129.99.203 14:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Big C
I have added material about the persecution of Christians by Jews, and I've noticed that this subject ties in with that of Christian antisemitism, but I'm having trouble thinking of how to word the link. One question is to what extent was the persecution of Christians by Jews exagerrated to justify Christian antisemitism? Many of the passages people have attacked in the NT as being antisemtic recount persecution of Christians by Jews. Also, the ancient accounts of persecution of Christians by Jews obviously laid the groundwork in some ways for the blood libel -- in fact people such as Julian of Norwich and Anderl von Rinn, supposed medieveal victims of Jews, were celebrated as Christian martyrs, in the same way as Stephen, Peter and Paul.
Also, I think for balance, we should include some sort of link or section (or maybe even a whole new article) on persecution of others by Christians, and persecution by Christians of each other. We could link in there such things as the persecution of Greek philosophers by Christian Roman Emperors, expulsion and forced conversion of Jews and Muslims from Spain, the Crusades, the persecution of the Albigensians and Waldenses, and the wars of religion around and after the Reformation... -- SJK
In the Roman section, how about information on throwing Christians to the lions (in the coliseum) - did that happen?
Please, please, move the external links to the end of the article. Wikipedia is not a web directory, nor is it an attempt to organize other content (though one must admit that would be a worthy project, it's not our project). -- LMS
In the article,
for Christian missionaries to use synagogue pulpits to preach the claim that he would soon return, leading the armies of Heaven, to establish his kingdom, would have made the Jewish community vulnerable to accusations of treason, and thus to Roman punishment. Jewish leaders would have to supress any apparent insurrection, or risk Roman wrath.
seems unlikely since Jews were already known to the Romans as suicidal nutballs whose terrorist activities were extremely annoying. -- Ark
Actually, RK is referring to a couple of long and vicious arguments we've had about Israel and anti-Semitism. More than enough to form an opinion. (Whether it's a rational, justified or even sane opinion is a different matter entirely.)
I'm more concerned with possibly having made a mistake. Now that I think about it, IIRC, the articles I read said it's the Brits who thought the Jews were lunatics and couldn't wash their hands of the Middle East fast enough. But I also read that the Jews were as masochistic two millenia ago as the early Christians, so it looks like I lucked out anyways. :) -- Ark
I removed the following text as unattributed speculation:
The "Some" who have "speculated" needs to be identified if it is anyone besides the person who typed in the text. It is also somewhat off-topic, and might possibly belong in the Christian anti-semitism article instead. Wesley
I think the text should be restored - but as you point out, it doesn't really belong here. In my reading I have seen that this claim is a fairly mainstream view among a number of historians and/or Bible scholars, both gentile and Jewish. I am not saying that it is necessarilly the majority view; just a common one that is widely accepted as reasonable. I don't have a ready citation at hand, but I will keep my out for citations on this topic. It also is the view that I happen to find extremely likely. There is no more reasonable way to explain how the Roman persecution of Jews (including the crucifixtion of thousands of them), somehow got rewritten as a pro-Roman, render unto-Caesar what is Caesar's, non-Jewish (and sometimes anti-Jewish) book. (It makes sense considering the time and place that it was written.) Perhaps we should have a discussion of this idea in Christian anti-Semitism article, as you suggest. RK
Wesley writes that "intolerance, exclusivity and schism are not the same as persecution".
I disagree. In fact, these terms are a very good definition of persecution. I think you are reading "persecution" as "physically assaulting", but that is not what is stated or intended. Assault is only the last type of persecution. Many other forms of persecution exist! Even so, Christian intolerance towards other Christians, exclusivity and schism often do lead to bloodshed, assaults and all out wars. To mention just the most famous example, a large part of the terrorism in Ireland is part of religious conflict between Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians. The nation of England also has a long history of warfare between one Christian group and another, and the violence was long preceded by intolerance, exclusivity and schism. RK
Conflicts within mainline Protestant denominations Forces of Schism within Christianity
This comes from Talk:Christian persecution
-A friendly amendment - this should branch off of (but not be a subpage - horrors, no!) and refer back to another entry on 'religious persecution'. I think it should probably be a headered section on religious persecution. I'm the last person to suggest that the persecution of Christians doesn't happen (I read a lot of memoirs and history from the Soviet era), but we've got to set it up so everyone can get in their persecutions. --MichaelTinkler, who suggests something like:
20th century religious persecution:
Augustine's writings have always been viewed with skepticism by Eastern Christianity, and Tertullian ended his life formally denounced as a heretic, an adherent of Montanism.
These arguments are special pleading. Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded. What they say on this issue has not been condemned by the church in any segment of it, as far as I know. I removed them.
It seems a shame for Augustine to suffer disrepute just because a boneheaded "scholar" misunderstands his quote. Tertullian wasn't _the_ leader of the church at any time, and it's silly that he would be credited with inciting a mass-suicide movement among the Christians. Mkmcconn
"However, Pilate's wife, through occult practices, had warned Pilate that he should not have any dealing with Jesus..." -- we need some documentation on this. The locus appears to be Matthew 27, but it is much sketchier than this.
From what i read, the first paragraphs of this article (jews and romans) are largely based on the New Testament. I don't believe that is a NPOV source. I think the article can be improved by the adition of historical accounts. Like the descriptions of Nero persecutions after the Rome fire, for instance. Muriel Gottrop 14:54, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I removed this new paragraph: It should be noted that almost none of these events involve the native "Malankara" Orthodox Christians of India but are instead directed at Roman Catholics or Protestants. Thus, this persecution could very well be as much a matter of political opposition to what is perceived as extension of old colonialist attitudes from foreigners as it is a matter of religion.
This is a hateful and unjustifibale excuse to justify attacks on, and murder of, Christians. People in a mob screaming to hurt or kill Christians are not voicing political differences about colonialism versus nationalism; they are simply hurting or killing Christians. (The same is true when people unjustifiably try to justify suicide bombings against Jews.) There is a big difference between voicing political differences, and murdering people of other religions. RK 21:31, Dec 9, 2003 (UTC)
If no one can supply substantial and UNBIASED evidence that the "Discrimination in the West Bank & Gaza / Palestinian territory"-section is not WIDELY blown out of proportions (note the biased sources) within a reasonable time period, say a few days, I'm going to remove it in its entirety as pro-Israeli propaganda. The existence of Palestian Christians has always disturbed Zionists for several obvious reasons, so to put this down as a propaganda attempt makes sense. Note that I'm not saying that there aren't any real incidents, but this section is called Persecution of Christians, so their scale and severeness must differ substantially from that of other multi-cultural societies which are not mentioned here, before a case can be made for their inclusion in this article. -- 213.73.231.245 01:45, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
That section is indeed very problematic. We must remember that the Israeli government has extremely clear reasons for wanting to talk up the problems of Palestinian Christians. The main reason, in a nutshell: the USA is predominantly Christian. What better way to promote anti-Palestinian sentiment in America than to teach Americans that the Palestinians persecute Christians? All claims about this that come via the Israeli government (directly or indirectly) need independent verification.
--
That said, some of the events described probably did occur. However, a second problem with the section is that it makes no distinction between local and official events. Violent behaviour from a few neighborhood hotheads does not qualify as "persecution" unless it is systemic and has official sanction. There is no evidence for this that I have seen. Yes, many in the Muslim population don't care for Christians and especially not for proselytizing Christians. Same in Israel.
--
A third omission is the fact that Christian organizations have many times denied the claims that they are persecuted (while not claiming to be free of problems). Examples on the internet include
http://www.eohsjatlantic.com/Nazareth.htm and
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9266/pauhrv.htm ("The LATIN PATRIARCHATE OF JERUSALEM assured me that all is untrue and all is lies"). A denial by the Palestinian Human Rights Organization is
here. Also see
http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/0persecution.htm for a list of related articles.
--
Another problem, though not conclusive on its own, is that Christians have always played a major role in the Palestinian nationalist organizations. The PLC has 6 Christians (last I heard), and there are many senior Christians in the PLO. Arafat's wife is Christian. Of course there aren't too many Christians in the Islamic organizations like Hamas. --
Zero 12:02, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think the last part of the article (actually from "Islamic Persecutions of Christians" till the very end) is not encyclopedic. Even though the facts may be (or are) true, they ought to be summarized. Moreover, even though the facts be real, I guess the term "persecution" has to be used with utmost care lest we (the wikipedia) should be making unfair generalizations. Remember that the WP is not a manual of History (least of Contemporary History).
I do not know who inserted those lists of facts, but I would delete them as they are from the page, because WP is not either a collection of events.
Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me. Obviously the above does not refer to the Romans or "disappeared cultures", which may not get hurt. You can check my contributions elsewhere to check my POV here (which is not "persecution denial" or "anti-christian"). Hope this helps. Pfortuny 16:42, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Pfortuny writes "Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me."
I have moved these two paragraphs from the article to here for discussion.
Um, I am not aware of any time or period in history where scientists have persecuted the Chrisitan community! Even more odd, this paragraph gives no examples. It seems incoherent. RK
These two sentences are too vague to have any meaning. RK 21:53, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)
You can't simply delete all these sources, quotes and websites, call them a "pack of lies", and claim that we must look at less biased sources. On what grounds are you accusing every one of these deleted sources of being lies and fabrications? It is well known that Christians are persecuted in Egypt and Malaysia. Please back up your claims, or the material will have to be restored. RK 22:41, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
Did you even check the "sources" I deleted? Does this site (the only source given for all the persecution allegations) look like an objective source to you (let alone one of a quality worthy of being quoted here?) Conversely, does this site, which I linked to a copy of at atheism.about.com, strike you as reasonably reliable? Well, the latter confirms that the only "severe punishment" imposed by the government on converts to Christianity in Egypt is a refusal to recognize this as changing their legal status, and reveals no evidence at all of persecution of Christians in Malaysia. As to the interview, claiming that people not of your own religion are infidels is scarcely persecution, or all countries adhering to major Abrahamic faiths would be hotbeds of persecution. - Mustafaa 22:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. These links are much more helpful than the ones previously in the article. I'll see if I can put together something on the topic, if you don't beat me to it. - Mustafaa 06:03, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"F. Conybeare's translation of Monk Stratego's account of the Persian Empire's sack of Jerusalem (614) claims the Jews took the opportunity to persecute the Christians." now that User:Amys has suppressed the entire quote, this looks like an unsupported assertion. Even the author's name is untraceable. Was that the intention? Wetman 03:02, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
"Christians and in particular Christianity have also been persecuted with the arrival of Western Science. Many prominent men have persecuted it, and in return were persecuted by them/it. One prominent example or artifacts are the Inquisition, which the most gruesome torture is to be seen, and Gallieo, who was threatened to withdraw his theory that earth is not the center of the universe or face excommunication, and also Bertrand Russell, who has wrote "Why I am not a Christian" and has been put in jail several times in his life, mainly for reasons unrelated to Christianity." How is the practice of science related to this material, already covered elsewhere? Wetman 20:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
lol, isnt the Galileo thing about Christians persecuting Scientists instead of the other way round-Anon
Except Galileo was himself a member of the church who persecuted him, so it could really go either way.
"In March 2004, many largely Muslim Albanians attacked over thirty Christian churches and monasteries in Kosovo, killed at least thirty Christians, and burned hundreds of Christians' homes, over the course of about five days. One NATO commander said it verged on ethnic cleansing of Serbians. Others compared it to Kristallnacht. Over 150 Christian churches and monasteries were destroyed in the five years prior to this incident. See Unrest in Kosovo, and http://www.kosovo.net." I dispute that this is persecution of Christian, as Christians, at all: rather, it's old-fashioned ethnic violence by a group (Albanians) with a Muslim majority and large Catholic minority against another group (Serbs) which is characterized by adherence to Orthodoxy. - Mustafaa 20:40, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Fair argument, but I haven't heard of any attacks on Catholic churches or monasteries in Kosovo, and while I can't find the statistics for Kosovo itself, I know a large proportion of Albanians are Catholics. To my mind, that aspect of it suggests an ethnic rather than religious conflict. - Mustafaa 19:45, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This quote, for instance, suggests a Serb-specific attack, though the article tries to minimize that angle:
According to the numbers in that article, there are 65,000 Catholics, 130,000 remaining Orthodox Christians, and another 250,000 Orthodox Christians who only recently fled and have been unable to return. I suspect that there simply aren't that many specifically Catholic churches and monasteries to attack; perhaps the Catholics and Orthodox are arguing about proper possession of the same churches.
The same article revives a topic from our earlier discussion of Egypt: apparently former Muslims are being beaten in Kosovo simply because they converted to Christianity. Perhaps this should be added to the article as well? And isn't this more evidence of an active anti-Christian hostility rather than just an anti-Serb hostility? Wesley 03:06, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Persecution of converts I would accept as clearly belonging here, though I'd like to see more verification first. However, I'm not so sure about burning of Orthodox churches; the other aspect of this is that the Catholics are Albanian, while the Orthodox are conspicuously not. - Mustafaa 06:44, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The whole section on persecution in the Soviet Union needs severe editing. The promotion by the state of anti-Christian propaganda in schools does not constitute "persecution" any more than the teaching of religion in schools "persecutes" atheists or those of other faiths. Both arguably are a perversion of schools' duty to educate but should be discussed under "religious/anti-religous propaganda". The failure of the Orthodox Church to revive after the fall of Communism is attributed to successful persecution. This is just speculation. It COULD be due to successful propaganda - but decades of pro-Communist propaganda had little lasting effect after the fall of the USSR.
This section should discuss alleged cases of people being executed, exiled, imprisoned, thrown out of work, being socially ostracised, etc for their religious beliefs. Exile 11:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No response. Does anyone agree with me? disagree?
Exile 22:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The statement that Kosovar Albanian Muslims are abandoning the Muslim faith is refuted in the article cited which documents inter-faith dialogue in Kosovo http://www.essex.ac.uk/armedcon/story_id/000164.html. This is irrelevant to an article aboout the persecution of Christians in any case. The added statement that Kosovar Albanians converted to Islam in the 17th and 18th century isn't cited in the article either and is irrelevant to this article on the persecution of Christians as well. For this reason I am deleting it, please stick to the topic. Moah 11:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I just updated the URL for the quote "Jesus, too, says John, really committed suicide, ...". However, this seems a very whacky source for several reasons:
I have made some extensive editions under 'non-biblical sources' for persecutions in the Roman Empire. I changed the heading title to 'Rise of Persecution in the Roman Empire,' because I feel that this title expressed more effectively what the author had been attempting to communicate in the underlying paragraphs (i.e. that persecution became widespread in the Roman Empire through imperial influences, hostility by the Roman public, etc.) I hope this was okay. Also, I deleted a paragraph under this heading because it was composed of a statement by Tacitus which was misquoted. I elaborated on the nature of persecution under Nero from A.D. 64-68, beginning with the great Fire at Rome. I would like to suggest that persecution in the Roman Empire be broken down into the reign(s) of various emperors, simply because imperial edicts and influences bore so much weight on the nature of persecution at this time. What do you think? I hope I didn't take too many liberties with my deletions. Sarah20 17:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, I deleted the following paragraph:
Some comminators believe that it is unlikely that such hatred of an obscure sect could have developed so rapidly, especially since this obscure sect did not have a distinctive name for itself and was considered by outsiders to be part of a much larger sect, Judaism. Although Church Father's emphatically try to make the case for widespread persecution of Christians at their present time and in the past, no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century, when it is quoted by the apologist Sulpicius Severus in a work replete with anachronisms and fanciful miracles. Indeed, some "Christians", if one could call the sect in its early stages of development that, may indeed have been persecuted for their religious ideals, though it would have been mere venting of Roman anti-Semitism at the obscure "Jewish" sect after the costly and foolhardy revolts in Judea, and not particular hatred of these people for worshipping "Christus."
The author of this passage is trying to say too many things at once, and most of his/her statements are speculative at best. First of all, to call into question the reality of persecution under Nero is to deny the validity of all of the writings of Tacitus on this subject; Philostratus mentions it as well. The statement that "no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century" is utterly false. sarah 18:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
In the section about persecution in the Roman Empire in the second century, the statement is made that: It should be noted that today massive numbers of martyrs claimed by the early Church during these persecutions are not generally accepted by scholars. I would like this to be cited, because I am not sure if "massive numbers" are claimed in the primary sources. If I do not hear back on this point, I will make the necessary corrections. -- LawrenceTrevallion 01:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I am revising the paragraph on the desire of some Christians to be martyred. I disagree with the provided analysis, which is: But the Christians, following Tertullian's dicta that "martyrdom is required by God," forced their own martyrdom so they could die in an ecstatic trance: "Although their tortures were gruesome, the martyrs did not suffer, enjoying their analgesic state." For one thing, Tertullian is not arguing for a death in an "ecstatic trance," but attempting to prove that martyrdom is good (Ad Scorpiace, Chp. 5). Besides, to only cite Tertullian here is to misrepresent Christianity's view of martyrdom since Tertullian was an extremist. Also, to say that the Christian martyrs were seeking an "analgesic state" seems insulting to the martyrs. At the very least, if the claim is going to be made, it should be supported with evidence and counter-arguments provided. I will add some material later, but I will delete this for now. -- LawrenceTrevallion 01:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph:
Further state persecutions were desultory until the persecution under Diocletian and more so Galerius that began in 303 AD. The persecution under Decius from the winter of 250 to the following spring of 251 martyred Pope Fabian, Bishop of Rome, involved Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, in controversy, and figures large in the founding myths of the seven bishops sent to Christianize Gaul, but finds no confirmation outside the vita of Cyprian composed by Pontius the deacon and writings in the hagiographic tradition.
The first sentence is inaccurate. I do not think Decius' persecution can be labeled as "desultory" since it was Empire-wide. Also, the second sentence I found confusing. I did leave the quotation from Gregory, but I find it odd to be using a description from someone writing in the fifth century. I will leave it for now, but unless there is serious objection, I will delete it. (Maybe it could be replaced with Eusebius?) -- LawrenceTrevallion 03:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather broad statement, but the section on Russia today seems rather non-NPOV (it says that Russians today don't take their religion "seriously").
The article should aslo expain why Christianity was attacked. For example the Tsars controlled the Church and claimed God wanted them to be slaves. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"The Church was falsely portrayed as obscurantist and opposed to the findings of science."
Is it quite neutral to include _falsely_? Hegel and Heidegger are still debated. There is a long Christian tradition of "faith as the substance of things not seen" and finding blessed those who "believe without having seen." Referring to "the Church" could be interpreted as the Rus. Orth. Ch. or the body of Christians in general. There are many groups of Christians who have been inarguably obscurantist and anti-scientific. This statement should be clarified.
"Much has been made of alleged Christian belief in the literal Creation account in the book of Genesis which the pro-Darwinian textbooks ridiculed."
Cite? The Soviet Union only reluctantly accepted the neo-Darwinian synthesis, because it went against the Marxist doctrine of the malleability of people depending on their environment. Depending on what time period is mentioned, it would be more likely that the textbooks would have criticized Darwinian evolution as Western propaganda and supported Lysenkoism instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Why alleged? There were plenty of Christians who believed in a literalist creationist account.
The reader of Wikipedia should note that this subsection has been deleted from the article, as it did not suit local POV. -- Wetman 04:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Needs to be re-added. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what the section was about, but this article personally seems to be lacking persecution between Christian denominations, anything I've found so far has been far too narrow, and I hasn't had info on what I'm looking for. Thanks, Silles Sellis 15:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
something about the persecution of non-Orthodox by the Orthodox during the Byzantine Empire and in Russia (and elsewhere) might balance it out further. 140.184.192.117 16:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
okay. the only problem I have had with this article is that they classify MORMONS as CHRISTIANS. NOT TRUE if you bother to read about the two completely DIFFERENT religions, you would see that they are similar, but THEY ARE NOT THE SAME—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.102.250.136 ( talk • contribs)
I'm not sure how relevant this is. But it is worth noting that wikipedia and this article in particular was cited in the UK Houses of Parliament by Anne McKintosh (Con: Vale of York).
Nothern Ireland is also rife with instances of Christian on Christian sectarian violence.
I dispute including this:
as an example of Jews persecuting Christians, because at that time no Jew thought that Jesus or Judas or Peter or anyone was not Jewish. It is certainly true that by the time of Paul (i.e. not much later) Christianity had emerged as a Jewish sect that Pharisees did persecute. Good scholarship means avoiding anachronisms: we have to distinguish between Jews whom Christians came to identify with the origins of their religion; Jewish Christians at a time of sectarian conflic among Jews; and Christians, a new religion clearly separate from Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I am glad you agree. For the record, though, I do not see this as the idiotic act of anti-semetic Christians. I see it instead as representing the fact that most people, at least most Christians, are actually pretty ignorant of the history of their own religion (I've certainly seen the same with Jews). Wikipedia is open to everyone, including dilettantes, which means that we will always have to clean up stuff like this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
What is your source? I ask because this is the opposite of what historians I have read argue. Romans almost never did anything for fear of Jewish revolt, and I know of no evidence of their killing dissident Jews because they feared if they did not other Jews would revolt. On the contrary, Romans killed Jews who they saw as threatening Roman rule, and Jews for the most part were terrified of doing anything that would incur Roman wrath - there is plenty of historical evidence for this and none that I know of for the view you espouse. Fredrickesn argues that Jews prosecuted Christians because Christians were preaching sedition against the Romans and if the Romans found out (or felt Jews were sanctioning this) it would lead to more violent Roman response - as hadhappened many times in the past. Jtpaladin seems to be relying on the old anti-Semetic canard that blames the Jews and sees the Romans as blameless. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
My point is that the Romans never coddled the ews out of fear. Moreover, they always prosecuted sedition. Roman oppression of Christians did not begin with Nero, they began with Jesus, a Jew executed for sedition. Jesus's followers who believed that Jesus' kingdom was at hand were preaching sedition and were likewise prosecuted by Romans. As long as Rome ruled Judea indirectly (through the High Priest) it expected the High priest to turn over anyone suspected of sedition or threatening the civil order - this would include all Jews suspected of such crimes, including early Christians (who were Jews themselves). The claim that "Jesus had been found innocent by the Roman governor and the Romans did not consider the Christians any sort of threat until prodded by Pharisee Jews into action" is not accepted by historians (see Sanders, Vermes, Fredricksen, Crossan), it is a claim Christains made only when they broke with Judaism and began seeking converts among Romans - obviously, it was counterproductive to identify themselves with seditious Jews, or to criticize roman authorities. After the Bar Kochba revolt Christians would have found it very hard to get converts from among the Romans if they identified with Jewish sedition and blamed Romans for Jesus' death - so they reversed it, exculpating the Romans and blaming the Jews. This not only made it easier to attract Roman converts, it transformed Romes political anti-Judeanism into early religious anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no single word in the following sentence, "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work," that invokes Christianity, or identifies Hitler as a Christian. This particular sentence proves nothing pertinant to this article. As DNicholls suggests, I think we need to distinguish between an act that comes from one's beliefs as a Christian, versus acts which, whatever their motivation, are justified in various ways (nationalism, Christianity, something else). If, after taking these two points into account, one can still argue that Hitler was a Christianity and that Christianity led to his anti-Semetic acts (and by the way, virtually all of the literature on anti-Semitism and the Holocauset argues against this view) then we need to do two things (1) cite the appropriate source -- what researcher has published this interpretation/calim, and in what publication; (2) we had better start making more nuanced distinctions among Christians. Look, many Christians used Christianity to justify slavery in the antebellum US. But one cannot, from that fact, infer that "Christianity is responsible for slaver." Many if not most abolitionists were Christians too. The only logical interpretation of this analogous case, it seems to me, is that people had their own reasons for supporting or opposing slavery that had nothing to do with religion, but they all felt that they had to justify (dare I say rationalize) their positions through Christian rhetoric. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I think it's amusing, really. Everyone agrees that Hitler was a madman, and no one would take his speeches on German/Arian superiority, or Jewish inferiority, or anything else, seriously. But when it comes to Hitler's religion, Atheists automatically claim that a handful of sentences spoken by Hitler himself in political speeches and rallies are all the proof we need. I guess no theory is too far-fetched when you need a reason to smear Christianity, right guys? Ritchy 23 July 2005
Restored Hitler section. Even if Revolucion proves correct in claiming that Hitler was Christian (an extremely dubious idea), that's not a reason to delete it: it would belong under "Persecution of Christians by Christians". - Mustafaa 22:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Hitler made many religious references in his speeches, but this should in no way shape or form be used to suggest that he was actually a Christian himself. I've always considered Hitler a puppet master who played on other's religious faiths to make them tools of his agenda. I know of several personal quotes by various nazis showing that they held a very warped, twisted, and ethnocentric form of christianity, but as for Hitler himself, his personal notes always seem to convey that he knew how to use religion to manipulate people, not that he was religious. -- Lucavix 23:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Hitler was a Christian fanatic, as shown by his constant references to his religious beliefs, as were most Nazis."
I don't agree at all. As has been said before, Hitler despised religion, and used it to establish HIS philosophy, which may have been inspired by some aspects of Christianity (like the idea of a Creator, or the idea that God has a plan for humankind), but certainly not from Christianity's core message, which is a message of reconciliation, mercy, and love. Hitler called the Bible "the Jews' Book of lies" whereas most Christians value the Bible and consider it contains truth.
Nazis held, amongst others, a belief in "race cleansing", so to speak, as they murdered numerous disabled people for the sake of keeping the German race "pure". Such a notion - killing the weakest - is not only alien to Christianity, it's opposed to its teachings.
Most Nazis might well have come from a Christian background, but their beliefs and values certainly didn't reflect the Christian message. littl'un-- 217.136.222.210 13:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Is the issue whether the individual or group identified themselves as Christian, and persecuted people from that place, or whether they were actually Christians? If we are going to pick and choose based upon whether their actions "Reflected" the Christian message, we might as well stop attempting any unbiased inquiry here, because I seriously doubt we could even come up with an agreeable, unbiased definition of "the Christian message". Maybe we can call him a "Christian Extremist" or "Christo-fascist". -KST
Many people would dispute this. Conservative Protestants would argue that Hitler was a Mariolater - ie Roman Catholic. Some Protestants believe that Roman Catholicism is not a Christian religion.
Hitler was certainly a Christian in his own mind. The issue is whether considering yourself something actually means you are. And if not — why should the Muslims, Jews, or others persecuting Christians be considered as such? There certainly exist people who’ll say someone acting in that fashion is not a Muslim, not a Jew, etc.
Hitler not only functioned with the blessing of the Catholic Church, but demonizing Jews was common among Christians in the region at the time. It was that common perception, descended from religious thinkers such as Martin Luther (one of Hitler’s stated inspirations) and his tract The Jews and Their Lies, which inspired the campaigns against Jews in the first place. Hitler gave taxes from Catholics to the Catholic Church. Owing to his involvement with the church, he went after gays, outlawed abortion, and set discipline standards. The Nazis ordered that Christianity be taught in schools. Religious mottos were part of Nazi uniforms. German troops were often required to be blessed by Catholic priests before going out. The SS enforced discipline against heresy against church doctrine.
Not wanting Hitler to call himself Christian is understandable, but it’s too late to change history. He was an avowed Christian, and referenced his beliefs regularly, most notably in Mein Kampf. In the truest sense, it can be said that he isn’t Christian, but that doesn’t erase that he believed he was. -- Skyhawk0 08:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Many Catholic and Protestant leaders and congregants were imprisoned based on their religious beliefs (where those beliefs went against Nazi policy) and many ultimately perished in concentration camps. That Nazis persecuted individuals that qualify historically as Christians is fact, whether or not the Nazis considered themselves Christians. As you will see in articles like the one on the Protestant Reich Church, the Nazis also took positions extremely hostile to mainstream orthodox Christianity (Catholicsm, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism). A debate on who is and who isn't a "Christian" (self definining) isn't totally relevant here. However I do think a distinction should be made between the Christianity professed by the vast majority of professing Christians over 2000 years and Nazis who invented doctrines that nobody professed to believe before 1900. NB, even Lutheran and Catholic anti-Semitism was decidedly non-racial. Official doctrine was that a converted Jew was the same as a converted German, Spaniard, etc. To say that racial differences constitute spiritual differences would be considered a heresy against the stated anthropology of the Church. The disputed tag on this section is completely pointless in my view. I realize objectivity is difficult, but that tag only represents the fact that some extremely muddy thinking has occured on someone's part. If you want to be hostile to Christianity, go ahead, but at least think your position through.
"Catholicism and Nazism have a more complicated relationship than some might think. Hitler both despised and admired various aspects of the Roman Catholic Church. Though the Nazi movement was superficially areligious, even anti-religious, the Nazi's greatest piece of propaganda and self-aggrandizement, Leni Riefenstahl's 1934 film about the Nuremberg Party Rally, Triumph of the Will, is in many ways profoundly religious. The film both makes use of Catholic religious imagery and draws on the Catholic sacramental tradition to give dignity and legitimacy to its construction of Adolf Hitler as the "god" of the Nazi movement... Since the beginning, Catholicism and Nazism had an uncomfortable coexistence. They jarred long before Riefenstahl began filming Hitler's rally in the summer of 1934... The Concordat, along with many other more famous agreements and treaties signed by the Fuehrer, was quickly violated, and the Church was ineffective in protecting Catholics from all manner of religious and cultural harassment. Alfred Rosenberg, the closest Nazism as an ideology ever came to having a philosopher, was consistently and virulently anti-Catholic... Hitler himself was not purely or simply anti-Catholic or anti-Church, and certainly not so before his rise to power. He was a baptized Catholic, as was his propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, and a number of other prominent members of his administration. Interestingly, though both men rejected their Catholic faith and recognized that they had excommunicated themselves, neither ever formally left the Church and dutifully continued to pay church taxes until their respective deaths. Hitler's own mother, to whom he was very close, was a devoted Catholic, and Hitler received Catholic schooling during his childhood in Austria... In his extensive, often contradictory writings and "table-talk," Hitler reveals an ambivalent attitude toward the Catholic Church. As an institution on German soil, he is very much opposed to it, and he ridicules the teachings of Church fathers and the practice of the Catholic faith... he detested the doctrines, of the Roman Church... Institutionalized religion, in Hitler's view, was a waning phenomenon... " Extracted from Hitler & Triumph of the Will: A Nazi Religion in the Catholic Style by Jadwiga Biskupska (Cornell University). 11:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
In addition to cutting the meaningless paragraph discussed above, I also deleted a paragraph suggesting reasons for why Saul of Tarsus persecuted Christians. The reaons I did this is that none of the suggestions had any citations, and thus seemed to me to be original research. I know of only one explanation for the persecution. I added it, and provided the proper source. It would not surprise me at all that there be other suggestions as to why Saul persecuted Christians and I do hope that other editors will add them to that section -- along with citations. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting the Nazi section. It's pertinent. At best, your claim is controversial, so include a paragraph about why some would think Nazism counts as a Christian sect. [edit: Sorry about the multiple entries. Had a lag problem.]-- DNicholls 05:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The section is about persecution BY Christians. Ritchy’s comment about secular reasons is turning a blind eye to the direct involvement with the Catholic Church. If it has to be proven what someone believes (with their own words discounted) before they can be considered to persecute in the name of religion, then absolutely nothing belongs on this page.-- Skyhawk0 08:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Support:
Support:
Consider the text already present in the "persecution of Christians by Christians" section. It begins by relating how the Roman Empire, after adopting Christianity as its state religion, proceeded to eliminate Christian groups with different theological dogmas from itself. It then describes later events in history, when the Roman Catholic Church authorized crusades against Christian groups who did not follow the same dogma, such as the Albigensian and the Orthodox.
These events have two things in common: They were acts of persecution authorized by a Christian group (the Christian Roman Empire in the first case, the Catholic Church in the second) and were done to impose a specific Christian dogma against all others. Those two conditions are necessary to an event to qualify it as persecution of Christians by Christians.
Now consider the text being debated. It related how the Nazi and Mussolini regimes persecuted Christianity. Before deciding if it should be moved to "persecution by Christianity", one must ask two questions. First, were these Christian regimes? No, they were not. The Nazi regime, most notably, tried to create its own Nazi mysticism to replace Christianity, which the party leaders viewed as a corrupting force and a threat. One might argue that these parties were only in power because a majority of the population of the nations allowed them, and that since these populations were Christian this makes them by extension Christian governments. But by this definition, every nation with a Christian majority has a Christian government by default; this means that every Western state in existence today is not led by a secular government but by a Christian one. This is a clearly false assessment. The second question we must ask is, was this persecution done for Christianity? No, it was not. This was persecution done to safeguard the interests of the party in power, and eliminate a possible threat to this power. This was not persecution done over differing interpretations of dogma, this was done purely for political gain.
The inescapable conclusion is that Nazi persecution of Christianity was not done by Christians, and was not done for Christian reasons. It was done by an anti-Christian group, for a secular reason: political power. Therefore does not belong in the "persecution by Christianity" section.
-- Ritchy 24 July 2005
Ritchy is completely off. The Nazis didn’t just happen to be Christian — they required the teaching of Christianity, celebrated it actively in their daily routine, pursued agendas based on it, and donated tax money directly to the Catholic Church. Under what Western governments does this scenario exist? No one put forward the majority religion of the electorate, and that strawman argument has no place here. The Nazis were emphatically not ‘anti-Christian’, rather incorporating and celebrating their Christianity widely.
It should be noted that the persecution specifically driven by Christianity is hard to separate from the very real power agenda that existed. Certainly the gays who died in concentration camps, were imprisoned, sent to work camps, castrated, and/or institutionalized were the result of a very specific Christian-inspired agenda — done under the auspices of the Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion.
Anyone in a power position could be said to be performing the acts they do in the name of power. Slrubenstein makes a great case. There are numerous grey shades to be navigated, and an article entitled “The Persecution of Christians by Other Christians Acting Specifically in the Name of Christianity With No Power Agenda” would be significantly sparser. As would ones about any other religion. The idea of applying a different standard to the article about Christianity than to those about other faiths is untenable, and it should be noted that those disagreeing with the standard applied in considering the Nazis Christian seem to have no issue with that same standard being applied to other religions.-- Skyhawk0 09:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
In regards to Skyhawk0's comments, the Nazi form of "Christianity" varies so greatly from Christianity it could hardly be considered Christian. All fundemental elements of Christianity; it purposes, ethics, values are completely subverted to a nationalistic, vanity driven pursuit of power and an ideal. The Nazi regime failed to bring the fruits of love, joy, peace, goodwill, long-suffering, etc but succeeded in bringing death, murder, slaughter, chaos, anger, rage, self-love, pride, deceit, rape, love of the motherland, etc. It is true that some Christians may have been duped by a fastitic conception of perfection. However, it is not true that the asserted ideas of Nazi Germany are consistent in anyway with Christianity. Perverting the ideas of a religion into a tool and a gimic intended to control people is what we refer to as a cult. The Nazi movement if it is to be viewed in a religious fashion should be viewed as a cult. We could go into all of the changes to Christianity made by the Nazi movement, but it can be left at the heart of Christianity was removed and whatever Nazi "Christianity" celebrated was something else.
By the way Skyhawk0, you are far from neutral on this issue. Combatting homosexuality and abortion doesn't mean the government was religious. Homosexuality and abortion can impact population growth. Nazi Germany did not want fewer Germans for their conquest efforts. More strength for this argument can be drawn from the fact that Nazi Germany euthanized disabled and mentally handicapped people. Religious beliefs that value life apart from stage of development and quality of life were obviously not responsible for the "pro-life" stance you say the Nazi's took. I think it is helpful to not just recite propoganda in the form of reasoned debate. -- DBdowner 10:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
There is quite a few sections under dispute and have been there for a long time so this is my attempt to discuss and solve the disputes if they still exist. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
The current title is 1 of two neutral statements that I believed could be used. The second would be the "Jewish persecution of the developing religion known as "The Way"(could be better worded) . The section should describe Jewish persection of "The Way". Keep in mind not all memembers were Jewish many were Protestant and by the time of the Roman persecution I believe the numbers show most were Gentile. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Protestantism did not exist until the 15th and 16th Century...The term the Bible uses throughout is Christian. (Anon. 63.19.101.39)
"Persecution may refer to unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, or execution. It also may refer to the confiscation or destruction of property, or incitement to hate Christians." Ecto 10:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit lost as why this is disputed. Islamic persecution undoubtly existed just like Christian persecution of Muslims also exists. The biggest problem with the section is that it is way too modern. What about the Arabian empires persecution of Christians.
This article only plays into the sentiments of modern Muslims. This is a blind predisposition, clearly non-NPOV, to think Christians are the persecutors and Islam has just in recent times reacted in a natural "eye for and eye" form of justice. The article totally negates how Islam terrorized Christians since the early 7th century. This persecution was through war and forced conversions throughout North Africa and into Europe did not end until Charles de Martel defeated the Islamic Army at the Battle of Tours in 732 ad. I believe this era is referred to by Muslims as the 1st Islamic Caliph. I believe they call their current efforts the 3rd! 209.91.13.188 13:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I copied a few sentences from the Historical persecution by Muslims page, which has a lot more information than this section. I got rid of the claim that the standard of living was "fairly reasonable" and that "officially they weren't persecuted", since that is made ludicrous by the subsequent statement that Christian children were regularly taken away and made soldier-slaves for the Sultan! The other page's description of the Ottaman empire as having limited tolerance punctuated by bloody repression is much more accurate. Stdarg 20:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This exists no doubt. In Bahrain also citizens are required to be Muslims despite a .1% or something like that Christian population. Saudi Arabia's Chrisitan church is largely underground and Christians are not allowed to step foot in the holiest parts of the country. In most Islamic countries prostalization is illegal, which is discrimination of all religions but the second largest group is Christianity in most of the countries making it relevant. In Egypt some Christians have been targeted in news reports but should not be considered a common occurence in the section. The exile of Pope Shenouda III is notable, relevant and neutral. The biggest problem however is repetition.(mentioning the same type of discrmination in seperate sentences for all the countries. Easier and more NPOV to mention it once as an overview.) The Phillipene incident without more evidence is not worth keeping. The Palestine one is a difficult and controversial issue and should be dealt with more care. In the simplest terms to get rid of the tag is the following. 1. Rename it to Discrimination and persection of Christians in Middle Eastern and South East Asian countries. 2. Avoid repetition 3. Word in a more NPOV manner providing the reasoning of the case followed by what happened.
Sounds like your suggesting it be edited more "Politically Correct". If they are stated facts then they are stated facts. This is being slowly turned into a religeous debate. SIte the facts and you will see that facts are neutral..we may not like them but they are what they are. Finding more careful language is a subtle distortion of facts is it not?
I'm surprised this is mentioned. There are far more notable events than this event nonetheless it did happen to Muslims and Christians. The Kosovo War was IMHO a war of ethnicity, religion, and separationism. I'm not sure what is disputed about it, however it might be a bit more NPOV to mention the Muslim persecution as well.
This section, before my changes, was making unclear statements about the occupation of Kosovo (and the Balkan Peninsula) by the Ottoman Empire and the modern conflict in the region. It was suggesting that at the time of the Ottoman invasion that the population was over 90% Albanian. This is false. See " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo". Serbians were in the overwhelming majority.
This isn't under NPOV but this section is way too short. Persecution of Christians in China has existed for probably a century and 1/2 at one point even eliminating Christianitys existence in Eastern China. It needs to be expanded.(The house churches could use a bit more info too)
I erased even more of this section, since it was written in a blatantly subjective manner. Better to put nothing at all than something like "The Chinese did it because they were mean."
I understand why this is disputed because of little documentation coming from these countries on this type of info. Christian persecution is known to exist, in North Korea, Cambodia, Laos, Lebanon, and discrimination in the Maldives.(not sure about persecution). Vietnam is likely. Now I'm not familiar with Sri Lanka, Bhutan, or Afghanistan but Nepal should be mentioned as it is likely far more notable than these three. I believe North Korea, Nepal, and Lebanon all merit there own sections (possibly Cambodia). The others probably don't need to be mentioned. If the others are kept to keep NPOV it should be mentioned that some believe persecution has taken place in the following countries. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
People should remember that christians cause ruin for themselves by intentionally targetting the poor and the vunerable. Many missionaries flocked to tsunami-hit areas and converted many poor people to christianity in return for aid. Also these groups are keen that damaged churches are re-built more quickly than other buildings. I have seen all these events taking place. Christians therefore should know that such activity angers many people including buddhists and hindus who are peace-loving (as shown by their good behaviour in the West). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.63.5 ( talk • contribs) 23:31, 7 September 2005
I don't understand how killing missionairies is persecution of Christians. If someone goes to another country to try and convert them, surely they are bound to receive friction. I think the sections where that is the only "persecution" should be removed. It's not so much persecution as failed missions. Flangazor 06:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with some of the above opinions. Killing missionaries is murder, it is not persectuion. Persecution, at least in this context, is done by one GROUP to another GROUP. My 2 cents is that the article should focus on persecution of Christians who live in predominantly non-Christian countries. See the wholesale massacres and suppressions of the Kirishitan groups for an example of persecution. -- circuitloss 20:33, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I've taken out the word "murder and enslavement" and replaced them with "persecution" because I think they are too emotional. I also added some of the context of the Darfur conflict so that points out some of the other deaths and possible causes. I think that the article has to be neutral if it's goin' to be taken seriously and at the moment it isn't very neutral.
I also added "alleged Islamists", because the government of Sudan is officially secular and portraying the army as "Islamists" presents a very simplified view of the conflict, which deniers of the genocide in Sudan could use to discredit opposing views. I've also made a few changes to the other sections including changing the titles from "murder and enslavement", because once again I think it's too emotional.
I didn't really look at the "persecution in Indonesia" section and it seems to me someone needs to take a look at that, too.
XYaAsehShalomX 13:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I understand that, at least in the early days of Christianity, it was legitimately persecuted. But the modern day examples are simply random incidents of hate crimes, i.e. one missionary getting killed by "Hindu nationalists". Yeah, whatever. I don't see how that makes it notable. By this reasoning you could make an article on "Persecution of X", where X is any group whose members have been treated differently because of some characteristic of X. For instance, you could write an article on "Persecution of Redskins fans" because wearing a Redskins jersey at a Cowboys game can get you beaten up. -- Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Great point!
I found the following at the end of this little peice of info:
" [5] I love you."
I simply erased it because it had no pertinence to the subject.-- Brandeis 21:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following was found directly in the text of the article after the statement that in WWII prodistants were persectuted becuase of percieved ties to the west: "That's not really true - my grandfather was an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army in the 30s and 40s and had no problems." This kind of material belongs on the Talk page, and has since been removed from the text of the article itself. Thanatosimii 03:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The use of the word "effected" in "Persecution of Christians in Sudan" (at the end) is incorrect.
There has been some serious vandalism by Maintenance who has deleted the content of the Historical persecution by Christians article and replaced it with content from this article, then renamed it as persecution of Christians - leading to the absurd merger suggestion between articles that are supposed to refer to opposed concepts/events (though of course there always was some overlap because much persecution of Christians has been by other Christians). Ideally we should have identical titles for these articles - both "Historial Persecution...", or both just "Persecution...". I have tried to reverse things, but have, sadly created a bit of a mess myself by cutting-and-pasting, leading to some pretty chaotic redirects and loss of edit histories. Paul B 14:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
"Modern Anti-Christian activity by the Jews Jewish filmmakers have been responsible for producing films attacking the core beliefs of Christianity such as " The Last Temptation of Christ" and " The Pope Must Die" by the Weinstein Brothers.These clear attacks on Christianity and on Catholicism have been criticized by '''Chrisitian''' activists. Some '''prominant''' '''Rabbi's''' have claimed that the New Testament is Anti-Semitic which is a ridiculous charge.
The machinegunning of the Church of the Church of the Nativity by Israeli soldiers when Palestianians were seeking refuge inside has been criticized by Christians as a purposeful symbolic attack on Christandom.The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem is one of the holiest sites in Christianity.
Christian Palestinians have been heavily persecuted by the '''Israeli's''' eventhough they have never participated in a single suicide bombing or assasination of any Israeli.
- 26k - 39k [http:// www.commondreams.org/views/120300-102.htm - 16k ]"
Other points of interest are that the Weinstein brothers aren't Jewish except under the standards of the Nuremburg laws and Christian Palestinians aren't persecuted by anyone except their Islamic brethren.
I'm deleting this, if someone literate wants to add something similar go ahead.
I deleted this:
"...one of the biggest in terms of number of victims, and was a direct inspiration for Hitler's Final Solution. However, it was often ignored or given little significance by many Western governments for most of the 20th Century, due to political pressure from Turkey, one of the West's few allies in the Middle-East. And although Western governments have begun recognising the genocide in the past few years, Turkey still officially denies that it took place. However, Turkey has begun to debate the genocide in public as a result of pressure from the EU, recently (September 2005) holding a conference to discuss it."
First off, this is a history of the debate about Christian persecution in the Ottoman Empire, not a history of the persecution itself. It's irrelevant. Second, the Ottomans' massacres of the Armenians and other groups during the Great War and War of Independence were not a direct inspiration for Hitler's final solution. To say that is to absolutely misunderstand Hitler's character and the nature of European anti-Semitism, and it's insulting. There is one quotation attributed to Hitler talking about the Armenians--that's hardly proof of a direct inspiration. Europeans had been killing Jews for years, and it's simply atrocious to make this claim.
If anyone wants to discuss what the Ottomans and Turks did to Christians, fine, but if we can keep the issue focused and historical, that would be best. Hashshashin 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
how does this qualify for persecution. nids 07:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Besides the recurring issues of POV and factual accuracy, this article has begun to suffer from many, many edits that result in a poor layout and choppy flow. I propose reorgainizing it so that it flows better and presents the subject in a more logical progression. I'm posting this as a heads up that I intend to start working on this in a few days, and want to make sure that my edits don't offend anyone. At this point, I don't intend any major content edits, but just a reorganization. That said, I will try to add sources where I can, and relate the references directly to the statements being made (this is what everyone involved with this article needs to consider doing...there's a huge "references" section, but it's not footnoted to specific statements in the text, and for a subject this sensitive, such direct referencing is really essential).
As I reorganize, though, I will be looking at individual sections that are tagged as POV or neutrality problems, or are otherwise disputed, to try and see how this can be resolved. My goal here is to produce a high-quality article. Whether individual readers dispute the reality or not of persecution is not a subject for the article itself, but for this talk page. Persecution of Christians is a documented problem in this world, just as much as persecution of other ethnic and religious groups. Therefore, in the interest of studying the problem and its causes and ramifications, a high-quality, NPOV article is essential for the integrity of the Wikipedia project.
Lastly, about tags: several sections are tagged with dispute or neutality tags. Each tag, ideally, should have a corresponding discussion - or at least a statement by the tagging editor - on this talk page as to why that tag is there, what the specific problem is, and a proposed (if possible) solution. Tags without corresponding talk page entries are essentially vandalism, because they denegrate the section without being justified. Consequently I will be removing them. If you've added a tag, please add a section to this talk page.
Oh, one more thing...once this talk page gets to 30 subjects, I'll be archiving it, as well. Thanks, and please let me know any suggestions you may have. Akradecki 15:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the edits by an anonymous user. If you wish, we can discuss the changes here, but I saw them as POV. LawrenceTrevallion 13:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me add, I do not wish to seem imperialistic or rude, but I do not think the edits were appropriate. If you wish, we can discuss it, but I would like some citations for your sources. LawrenceTrevallion 13:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, sorry guys for all of my mess here. I went back to the edits by the anonymous user, as I do not want to be rude. However, I would like to discuss these changes as I do not agree with them. For instance, what "Christian Zealots" are being referred to in the Jewish Persecution section? Also, I think the part about medieval persecutions being inspired by these needs some citation. LawrenceTrevallion 13:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a question about the use of the New Testament as evidence of Judeo-Christian persecution; is it entirely plausible to use a single document, particularly one as controversial as the Bible, as the basis for such an article? It seems particularly ironic that the use of the New Testament is unquestioned, whilst the general Wikipedian consensus is that if you haven't acquired a suitable, recognizable, and above all demonstrable source, your additions are stricken and you are lampooned by the rest of the community.
The only way to resolve this inconsistency appears to be to remove the Biblican evidence of the persecution of Christians, and instead rely upon the latest historiographical evidence and theories. -- Australia, 22 October, 2006
The Bible is a well established historical document, even if you disregard the theological aspects of the material. The Bible has been used as a historical record by untold numbers of historians and therefore quotes from it are as valid as any other historical record. Jtpaladin 17:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
If Wikipedia can cite Diodorus, Curtius and Tacitus, then there's absolutely no reason not to cite the Bible. If you have a view about the Bible's reliability, you will be able to find an appropriate forum air your views. As matters stand it is a source. The referenced "consensus among the community" does not exist, except by redefining the community to "those that agree with my point of view". Sittingduck123 18:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Note: This is not to be anti-Semitic, but to in the end understand why the conflict other agressions between Christians and Jews arose
I have not read numerous martyrdom accounts from the time of the early Christians, but in the martyrdom account of St. Polycarp circa 160, there is a line (13:1) in which it mentions that the Jews also participated in gathering wood for the fire. I thought a mentioning of such would show the continuity the Jewish persecution of Christians after St. Paul and the book of Acts. I took a college course of the Early Western Civilization, which in it we were told that there were not very many direct persecutions of the Christians, i.e, Roman soldiers going out and looking for Christians, but citizens (and not infrequently Jews) reported them to officials to have them tried. I don't know if this is the most correct, but if it is, I believe there should be a mentioning of how it was not uncommon (nor unreasonable) for Jews to help in the persecution of Christians. I say not unreasonable, because from their perspective we can assume it was like Sauls, viewing Christianity as a heretical offshoot. Please tell me what you think, about adding this in under "Jewish persecution of Christians." Also I don't fully think it describes the motives of the Jews, to say they only persecuted the Christians becuase it was "seditious" from Rome. It really was a differing view between two different groups, each considering the other incorrect or inferior.-- Francis419jn655 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thats stupid. Persecution means "persistent mistreatment of an individual or group by another group". "Other christians" are obviously not candidates for christian persecution... Fresheneesz 06:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
May I point out that while NPOV forks are not allowed, content forks are? May I also point out that at 61 kb this article is already long, getting to be too long? Then I propose a solution: have one article on persecution of Christians by non-Christians, and another article on conflicts of oppression or whatever you want to call it by one group of Christians against another? Both of these are important topics in "the history of Christianity" and I would suggest viewing them as just that - a series of articles on important aspects of Christian history, separate but linked. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent>I noticed this oversight as well. Christians are the biggest source of Christian persecution (and not the ACLU). Ask any Mormon. Ask any Branch Davidian. Ask any of the Watchtower folks. For that matter ask an Irishman about Christian persecution by fellow Christians. Or simple read your history book.
As far as modern/current histroy goes, Evengelical (and other) churches publish an enormous amount of literature and dedicated web space portraying the Mormon church is a cult, the Catholic church is a fraud, the Pope is Satan (in dashing garb), and every body in between is evil as well. Of course, the rule is that a Christian religion with LOTS of members is a mainstream religion, those with smaller numbers are cults. The guys with the big numbers get to make the rules. Anyhow, this article (and our readers) would benefit from a section on Sectarian Persecution. Christianity has a long and rich history of eating it's own, why not add that to the article? Mr Christopher 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I took a round and tagged a few of the places where no source is given. I also noticed that many of the sources given seem a bit unreliable, but that's another issue. // Liftarn
I am somewhat amused to find that "Christian Whining" redirects to "Persecution of Christians". While it doesn't bother me much, I figured I should bring it to someone's attention in case it was something that needed to be removed.-- Raguleader 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
The article will benefit from basic copy editing and fact checking. I have started to do so and could use assistance. Majoreditor 22:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Echoing Majoreditor's comments above, there are three possibly-non-neutral tags left on this page. Non-neutral tags are not here just to highlight controversial areas, nor to show that a particular pov would wish that section to read differently. These tags have been here practically since time eternal, and we really need a census of them, so to speak, to see if still valid. If offending pov sentances cannot be produced, they sould be removed within a certain timeframe. Thanatosimii 18:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There's an edit war going on over the content of the India section. Will the involved parties please attempt to resolve issues through discussion on this talk page? Thanks, 23:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Every body should chill a little bit especially with regard to the anti-conversion laws in India paragraph. Remember the three revert rule. I think it is time to discuss whether that paragraph should be in or not. -- Selket Talk 13:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
All the Reversions dealing with the India section are a waste of Wikipedia resources and for that reason I would have no problem with locking the Article - MINUS the India section of course. People donate funds to operate Wikipedia, not for authors to have Reversion wars. Chrisbak 05:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Under "Persecution of early Christians by Romans", "Persecutions narrated in the New Testament", there is a reference to John the apostle as the "writer of the Book of Revelation" which should be deleted. The author of Revelation could one of several people as that article says. If there is no objection that phrase will be deleted. Chrisbak 05:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of locking articles, but the current edit war makes me think otherwise. The parties involved have made no effort to discuss their differences on this talk page. If you lay out your issues on the talk page you can engage other editors who can help you reach a consensus. Majoreditor 13:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you know of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution? That is the way we resolve disputes in Wikipedia. It's far more effective than editwarring. Place request for comments, ask for third opinions, request informal mediation, etc. Majoreditor 17:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
How about persecution by secularists, e.g. persecution against Rocco Buttiglione and Ruth Kelly? Hammer1000 09:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Also at the end of the section Persecution by Christians these 3 sentences describe political opposition and I vote for deleting them from the article: "At the end ofFrom the 1990's on, fundamentalist sects in the US have claimed a growing hostility towards Christianity, based on enforcement of the principle of separation of church and state. A so-called war on Christmas is often cited as an example, along with frequent disputes concerning religious displays on government property. Arguments on both sides are difficult to document and may be frequently exaggerated." Chrisbak 06:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest to exclude Japan from this article as it is covered in History of Persecution of Christians article Sarcelles 17:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Persecution of Christians/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Mormonism
Hi Olaf, I am the author of the material you have removed twice. The material you describe as being irrelevant is very much relevant due to it describing the reason for Mormon persecution, which is the purpose and scope of the article section. The section was not only corrected to remove some minor historical errors, but also expanded to adequately provide and properly articulate a full contect for understanding. There is a trememndous amount of misinformation about the Mormon religion that prevails on the internet. There is great interest to ensure that Wikipedia articles are informative in proper context and clarity. The sections that you have removed were not only very relevant, but critical in pointing out the very reasons that mainstream Christian persecution agaisnt Mormons exists.. - Highwinder |
Last edited at 16:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 21:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)