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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus to move in the very messy discussion below. There is a rough consensus to split and move some content to Massacres of Amharas. Since "split" is not one of the WP:THREEOUTCOMES, I am not sure what weight my assessment carries. In any case, I'd encourage editors to be WP:BOLD and go ahead with the split. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 19:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Amhara genocide →
Massacres of Amharas – This article does not show well-sourced legal or
academic consensus classifying these massacres and
intent together as
genocide (e.g. per the
Rome statute; without
genocidal intent there is no genocide). In the
current version: the best source for the genocide claim appears to be
Tesfaw, Muluken (19 April 2022). The Amhara Holocaust: Accounts of the Hidden Genocide of the Amhara People in Ethiopia: 1991- 2015. Talem Publishers. ASIN B09YCBX9W3, an offline source by a currently non-yet-Wikipedia-notable
journalist, which appears currently in multi-reference [6]; the source from a not-yet-notable institute
Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention (also in [6]) says that
TPLF (1991–2018)
human rights violations could amount to the crime of genocide
. That there have been several long-term patterns of massacres of Amharas, as for other patterns of massacres in Ethiopia, and as in the multiple
pogroms of the Hazaras (see also
Category:Massacres) is well-supported by the sources, so Massacres of Amharas should be uncontroversial to satisfy the
WP:TITLE criteria.
Boud (
talk)
22:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
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intention ... is a deliberate & organized intention to minimize and downgrade the genocide of Amharas, and insult .... This is a personal attack that is not acceptable, because it distracts from the arguments and is unpleasant for the person attacked. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
vehemently object[ing], it would be more convincing if you could provide a small number of high quality sources that directly state that the massacres constitute a genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
that directly state that the massacres constitute a genocide, without needing original research. Boud ( talk) 21:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose.
The article has enough evidence for a genocide that occured against Amhara people starting from Welkayit in early 1900s. The person proposing the name change is doing so as part of a coordinated effort to deny the fact that a genocide that fulfills all the stages has occurred this is part of the genocide denial. To change the title into massacre instead of genocide is simply incorrect considering all the evidences for genocide taking place against amhara people in this article. Menotmebaloni ( talk) 02:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
The person proposing the name change is doing so as part of a coordinated effort to deny the fact. Please do not engage in personal attacks. If you present some good sources, then you will have a fair chance of convincing other editors who participate in this discussion and the uninvolved closing person (and myself – see where I wrote
I would of course change to 'oppose' if that seemed justified). Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
The Amhara Genocide is clearly supported by the below articles.
The Lemkin Institute stated that " the Amharas have been persecuted for several decades”. Mass crimes against the Amhara people began in the 1990s, (e.g. per the Lemkin Institute Statement on the Ongoing Violence Against the Amhara People). Lemkin reaffirmed that persecution of Amharas have been going on for several decades, and that it has been amplified in recent times. This statement is further supported by European Times on 21 June 2021, (e.g. per the Ethiopia:In the shadow of the elections,Amharas are massacred in silence). The article stated that in early November 2020, at least 100 people from the Amhara ethnic group were killed in an attack by suspected members of the Oromo Liberation Front (OLF) group. These frequent and amplified killings clearly indicate the "intent to kill".
Scholars from the "Amhara Association of America" ,”Human Rights Watch" and "Amnesty International" have also shown patterns of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Amhara people in Ethiopia. The attackers/killers use the code word "Nefetegna", meaning gun-bearer, "Sefari" meaning settler/ non-indigenous to dehumanize and leave these Amhara civilians vulnerable to an attack. As the Late former-secretary general of United Nations - Kofi Annan Stated "a genocide begins with the killing of one man - not for what he has done, but because of who he is." Amharas are also being killed not because of what they've done, but because of who they are ethnically. It's also important to note that in the intent of massacring Amharas, genocidal acts are performed. The sources that are provided in the article clearly indicate that Amharas have been systematically cleansed on ethnic lines and genocide has been committed with the intent to kill .
The intention of altering the title from "Amhara Genocide" to “Massacres of Amharas" is a deliberate & organized intent to minimize, downgrade the genocide of Amharas, and insult the innocent Amhara women and children who were/are victims of genocide in various parts of Ethiopia. Instead of acknowledging and showing contrition for the thousand innocent Amhara civilians that are being persecuted in Ethiopia; altering the Phrase Amhara Genocide to Amhara Massacre downgrades/minimizes the suffering of the innocent . Therefore, I completely oppose the changing of this article title from Amhara Genocide to Massacres of Amharas. The title of the article "Amhara Genocide" should remain as is. Lakomelza Bete-Amhara ( talk) 03:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
users such as Boud are more interested in altering phrases to downgrade and minimize AmharaGenocide. This is called a personal attack and is unacceptable on Wikipedia. It is a logical fallacy, not an argument. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
BiniamAmbachew (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC) Lakomelza Bete-Amhara 03:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC), which was confusing; your second edit removed the BiniamAmbachew (blocked for 48 hours in March 2021) signature; and your third edit softened the personal attack, changing to
users are trying to alter the Phrase Amhara Genocide to Amhara Massacre to downgrade/minimize the suffering of the innocent; this is no longer a personal attack on a specific person, but it's still a general attack on editors instead of an argument. Boud ( talk) 10:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
the baseless and fabricated reports of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, he does claim that there is an ongoing Amhara genocide. Source four by Al Jazeera English is mostly a summary of an Ethiopian Human Rights Commission report, and both AJE and EHRC qualify as WP:RS; it says that about 750 civilians in Amhara (not necessarily ethnic Amharas) were killed or executed in 2021; it does not claim genocide. Source five is by Gregory Stanton#Genocide Watch, which is a WP:RS; its summary statement is
Genocide Watch is issuing a Genocide Warning for Ethiopia due to the government’s inaction to stop ethnically motivated violence between Oromo, Amhara, Tigrayan and Gedeo peoples, which is not a claim of a current status of genocide against any of the four groups.Your strongest source is the opinion of Girma Berhanu, who is currently un-notable, writes in a currently un-notable source, but does appear to be a faculty member of a well-known university. I don't see properly sourced support for Amhara genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
* Comment: Concerns on bias and behavior of Tendentious editing WP:TE. It is important to capture the issue of bias reflected toward the Amhara content consistently. On the other hand, I couldn’t help noticing that the move requester is an avid editor of the Tigray materials with WP:POVPUSH even in remotely related articles. Please note that there is ongoing conflict between Tigray and Amhara. Such contentious move requests can only give meaning with unbiased and expertise-based editing more importantly on this specific topic. Please see the talk in Talk:Predictions of a genocide in Ethiopia § Requested move 29 November 2021 for previous instance in which the same editor participated in a discussion about another article and the push for the title to be named “Tigray genocide”, even if the content wasn’t solely on Tigray. Another editor had to justify for correcting the poor suggestion. In addition, instead of help improving this article, the requester has been demanding Tendentious editing with numerous unjustified tags while giving no response for the explanations provided. Here is an example Talk:Amhara genocide § Dubious Petra0922 ( talk) 05:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose: The article support the classification of the "Amhara Genocide". The ongoing persecution and genocide of the Amhara people have continued unabated since the 1990s in Ethiopia. According to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II states that " Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: a) killing members of the group; b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." This classification of genocide clearly shows that the purpose of killing the Amharas is an act of genocide and is supported by the article. Amharas are being killed because of their ethnicity. In addition, genocide is being committed with the intention of killing Amharas, and all the sources presented in the article indicate that they killed Amharas only because of their ethnicity and committed genocide. Changing the title of "Amhara Genocide" to "Massacre of the Amharas" is a deliberate denial of the Amhara genocide. Therefore, I strongly object to changing the title of this article from Amhara Genocide to "Massacres of Amharas". The title of the article should remain "Amhara Genocide". NigistA ( talk) 08:04, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
deliberate denial of the Amhara genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I am not going to weigh in, but I can provide some relevant journal articles that should probably be included in the article.
the principal question is not “is it genocide?” but, “how can solutions be found to the crises of war, state collapse, starvation and mass atrocity?”
researchers have uncovered the existence of acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Amharas in BGRS.
questions around what is genocide are recognized by all parties to a conflict as a key arena of the larger contention...The Ethiopian government would have experienced significant hurdles in its efforts to retain strong relations with global partners if the international community had determined that it was engaging in genocide(suggesting perhaps that the international community did not come to this consensus?)
Larataguera ( talk) 13:38, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
... Amharas are claiming on how they have repeatedly killed ...); a publisher normally pays language editors/proofreaders to propose language fixes to a research article after peer reviewers have accepted the article. This is not the fault of the authors - non-native English speakers are not going to write perfect English - it's the publisher's fault. A key quote from reference 4 is
The process through which Darfur was labelled as genocide was deeply contentious and raised deep issues about how the world should position itself with regard to violence, particularly in Africa and the Islamic world. As Irvin-Erickson argued, 'genocide discourses' are a type of strategic narrative that shapes the way that individuals and groups position themselves.This strengthens the motivation for the discussion of this RM to be based on good quality sources, keeping in mind the geographical bias in Wikipedia that will tend to undervalue African sources, and to avoid the risk of advocating in one direction or the other. Boud ( talk) 15:17, 15 January 2023 (UTC) In reference 4, more specific to this current discussion is the paragraph on p18 starting
The Amhara diaspora in particular followed the Ogadeni diaspora in its use of the genocide frame.Whether the Amhara diaspora are right or wrong is a matter for WP:RS to say - preferably peer-reviewed sources, and ideally, proofread peer-reviewed sources where the reader doesn't have to guess the intended meaning, but that's up to a matter of judgment for people participating in this discussion and the eventual uninvolved closer. Boud ( talk) 15:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
mass atrocities including systemic genocide and ethnic cleansing on Amharas in Wolqait, Tegede, and Telemt areasLarataguera ( talk) 11:23, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose the original article is very high-quality and provides extensive reference material to support the "Amhara Genocide" designation with diverse sources from human rights organizations, mainstream media outlets, independent organizations and academics. In fact, the references are some of the most extensive I have seen and go far beyond citations used for other, similar articles. The Amhara Genocide is partly unique because there have been multiple perpetrators over an extended period of time. With this being said, it is possible it could grow even larger with more time. In my experience, the term "genocide" is not controversial among mainstream sources but rather among reviewers who have been unfamiliar with the body of evidence. It would be a gross misrepresentation of the evidence to move this article under the "massacres" title. I recommend the reviewers reexamine all of the evidence closely. TheGerazmach ( talk) 02:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose There is in my opinion enough sources that support the current name as WP:COMMONNAME. Dawit S Gondaria ( talk) 18:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Split Since the nominator has changed his position to 'unclear' I propose that information and sources that don't explicitly describe the situation as genocide be moved to Ethnic violence in Ethiopia (preferred) or to Massacres of Amharas. Then when the sheer number of sources in this article is reduced, we can determine if there's enough left to keep the article and what the appropriate title would be. Hopefully in that process, the article can be reworked with a sound basis on best sources available. Larataguera ( talk) 14:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Summarizing per Boud's suggestion: for those who wish to weigh on !vote or change it after holding/reviewing the RM discussion here, I like to share a list of sources that support the current Amhara genocide title. Overall, the discussion seems to focus toward establishing WP:COMMONNAME, through sources that name the Amhara topic as genocide, and the list below is made to support that (ideally to provide information for whomever is closing the RM).
For more examples:
Petra0922 ( talk) 18:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Gondar University has designated a team of 21 scholars and carried out the apocalyptic genocide against the people of Amharaliterally says that Gondar University carried out a genocide against Amharas. Boud ( talk) 23:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
acts of genocide in the provinces of ... genocidal activity that was perpetrated singularly on the Amhara peoplesince the TPLF 1991 takeover of Ethiopia; the AAPO considers the TPLF to have carried out acts of genocide against Amharas while it ruled Ethiopia;(2) Hearing: Democracy ... - this source itself does not directly establish "Amhara genocide", but instead lists multiple testimonies; choosing the one most likely to be favourable to Amharas, Mr. Tewodrose Tirfe, Co-Founder, Amhara Association of America, first witness statement, refers to
ethnic cleansing and genocidal acts againstAmharas and lists 8 events that would be the "event" part of genocide;(3) Ethnic Politics ... (Getasew Endalew+2022, International Journal on Minority and Group Rights) –
genocide against Amharas is executed in BGRS, referring to internal ref 26 = The Amhara Genocide Ignored by the World: A study of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Amhara ethnic group from 1991 – 2015 (Moresh Wogene Amhara Organization, 2015);(4) ... Silent genocide: A Quest ... (Achamyeleh Tamiru 2016, Ethio Forum) - the title+author+publisher+year stated by Google Scholar are not usable as a source; but the actual source is archived here – p26:
... silent genocide on Amhara people in general and Wolkait in particular ..., p32:
TPLF was not alone when it was conducting the genocide on the Wolkait-Tegede Amhara. ... to the genocide on the Wolkait-Tsege Amharas. ... ideological underpinning to the genocide on the Wolkait-Tegede Amharas ... genocide of Wolkait-Tsege Amharas that has been happening on a daily basis for the last 36 years ... all the genocides committed on their Amhara brothers; Ethio Forum is well-known, probably ethnically biased (I don't remember; in any case, there seem to be very few non-ethnically biased Ethiopian sources), not yet WP-notable; the author clearly would support the name Amhara genocide;(5) It only reopens old wounds: ... Amhara genocide survivors ... (Adugna Abebe Bihonegn+2022, Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Social Services) – abstract:
... Amhara survivors of the Maikadra massacre; while attribution of "who started" the 9–10 Mar 2020 Mai Kadra Massacre remains contested, with massacres of both Amharas and Tigrayans, the massacre of Amharas is uncontested, and the authors here consider the phrase Amhara genocide to be accurate.It's not clear to me that these establish WP:COMMONNAME, but these five sources do show some usage of terms close enough to Amhara genocide. Whether this is a term widely recognised by scholars independent of Amhara groups is not clear, but research is not currently well-sourced in the more specific Wikipedia articles on the individual massacres; most of the sources are for the past few years, not the 30 years of TPLF federal-level rule. Boud ( talk) 09:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
most of the sources" in the "
more specific Wikipedia articles on the individual massacres"; (1), (2), (3), (4) all cover the TPLF period of rule. Boud ( talk) 16:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
To help differentiate the long list of massacres committed against the ethnically targeted Amhara, i thought it will be helpful to refer to the go-to and reliable source per WP:FACTS, the UN Genocide Convention and its definition: “targeted actions aimed at the destruction of particular groups of people.” [52] Massacres can be categorized into two. The first type is “Intended mass killings of people regardless of any religion on ethnic group,” and the second one gives the equivalent definition of Genocide, which “involves the targeted mass killing of people of a specific race or ethnic group.” [53] “Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
With WP:FACTS, for the above definitions, and also with the verifiable specific sources that state the crimes of genocide, the Amhara genocide article listed various types of genocidal massacres/ethnic-based and massacres involving intent- and this differs from the first type of massacre or killings of people regardless of ethnicity. For the latter, some of the examples are: the massacre of Amhara in the 2005 Addis Ababa mass killings by Federal forces, and other massacres such as historical massacres of the Amhara due to conflict within its group …..or massacres against a whole lot of people in Ethiopia but the Amhara are also killed in mass among other people. Since the early 1990s however, genocidal massacres occurred, per the above definition, and sources show that genocide occurred to this group as the Amhara have been separated based on their ethnic identity and killed in mass. That is why I present this argument to justify the current title is within its scope. However per Larataguera's suggestion other types of non-genocidal violence against the Amhara and the other ethnic groups warrant an independent article, and I see Ethnic violence in Ethiopia fits best since there is already an article exists with, List of massacres in_Ethiopia, with some list for the Amhara and thought redundancy can be avoided. With the Split, I can see that the violations listed under the Crimes against humanity and War Crime sections, the violations against the Afar people and various ethnic groups in the Southern and Eastern regions, including other sections that provide general background could move into the Ethnic violence in Ethiopia. I see the proposed title, massacres of Amhara by Boud could work with some modification, if the title specifies its scope to the non-genocidal Amhara massacres- examples are listed above. Perhaps, the alternative titles to the massacres of Amhara could be Non-genocidal massacres of the Amhara, or Massacres of the Amhara pre-ethnic conflict, or Pre-ethnic conflict massacres of Amhara...and so on. Petra0922 ( talk) 21:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate (while being aware that close paraphrasing can still violate copyright). Then submitted the draft to AfC and it was accepted as Class B. Another editor found issues in Citation style but re-rated it to "B" after satisfying the CS requirements. I bring this up to explain the process, the approach to paraphrasing, and how that seems to lead to WP:OR, based on the recent Tag. This is where I found
content be written in Wikipedia editors' own wordsversus the WP:OR Tag, contradicting. I also like to add, the WP:OR § What is not original research and how the article was using this logic throughout when written:
A, and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article.In this article the sources followed this principle: “A” & “B” provide the same context/argument and are captured as, therefore “C”. Could you please help me understand this? I found this to be pretty conflicting. Thank you. Petra0922 ( talk) 18:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus to move in the very messy discussion below. There is a rough consensus to split and move some content to Massacres of Amharas. Since "split" is not one of the WP:THREEOUTCOMES, I am not sure what weight my assessment carries. In any case, I'd encourage editors to be WP:BOLD and go ahead with the split. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 19:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Amhara genocide →
Massacres of Amharas – This article does not show well-sourced legal or
academic consensus classifying these massacres and
intent together as
genocide (e.g. per the
Rome statute; without
genocidal intent there is no genocide). In the
current version: the best source for the genocide claim appears to be
Tesfaw, Muluken (19 April 2022). The Amhara Holocaust: Accounts of the Hidden Genocide of the Amhara People in Ethiopia: 1991- 2015. Talem Publishers. ASIN B09YCBX9W3, an offline source by a currently non-yet-Wikipedia-notable
journalist, which appears currently in multi-reference [6]; the source from a not-yet-notable institute
Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention (also in [6]) says that
TPLF (1991–2018)
human rights violations could amount to the crime of genocide
. That there have been several long-term patterns of massacres of Amharas, as for other patterns of massacres in Ethiopia, and as in the multiple
pogroms of the Hazaras (see also
Category:Massacres) is well-supported by the sources, so Massacres of Amharas should be uncontroversial to satisfy the
WP:TITLE criteria.
Boud (
talk)
22:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
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consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
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intention ... is a deliberate & organized intention to minimize and downgrade the genocide of Amharas, and insult .... This is a personal attack that is not acceptable, because it distracts from the arguments and is unpleasant for the person attacked. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
vehemently object[ing], it would be more convincing if you could provide a small number of high quality sources that directly state that the massacres constitute a genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
that directly state that the massacres constitute a genocide, without needing original research. Boud ( talk) 21:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose.
The article has enough evidence for a genocide that occured against Amhara people starting from Welkayit in early 1900s. The person proposing the name change is doing so as part of a coordinated effort to deny the fact that a genocide that fulfills all the stages has occurred this is part of the genocide denial. To change the title into massacre instead of genocide is simply incorrect considering all the evidences for genocide taking place against amhara people in this article. Menotmebaloni ( talk) 02:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
The person proposing the name change is doing so as part of a coordinated effort to deny the fact. Please do not engage in personal attacks. If you present some good sources, then you will have a fair chance of convincing other editors who participate in this discussion and the uninvolved closing person (and myself – see where I wrote
I would of course change to 'oppose' if that seemed justified). Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
The Amhara Genocide is clearly supported by the below articles.
The Lemkin Institute stated that " the Amharas have been persecuted for several decades”. Mass crimes against the Amhara people began in the 1990s, (e.g. per the Lemkin Institute Statement on the Ongoing Violence Against the Amhara People). Lemkin reaffirmed that persecution of Amharas have been going on for several decades, and that it has been amplified in recent times. This statement is further supported by European Times on 21 June 2021, (e.g. per the Ethiopia:In the shadow of the elections,Amharas are massacred in silence). The article stated that in early November 2020, at least 100 people from the Amhara ethnic group were killed in an attack by suspected members of the Oromo Liberation Front (OLF) group. These frequent and amplified killings clearly indicate the "intent to kill".
Scholars from the "Amhara Association of America" ,”Human Rights Watch" and "Amnesty International" have also shown patterns of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Amhara people in Ethiopia. The attackers/killers use the code word "Nefetegna", meaning gun-bearer, "Sefari" meaning settler/ non-indigenous to dehumanize and leave these Amhara civilians vulnerable to an attack. As the Late former-secretary general of United Nations - Kofi Annan Stated "a genocide begins with the killing of one man - not for what he has done, but because of who he is." Amharas are also being killed not because of what they've done, but because of who they are ethnically. It's also important to note that in the intent of massacring Amharas, genocidal acts are performed. The sources that are provided in the article clearly indicate that Amharas have been systematically cleansed on ethnic lines and genocide has been committed with the intent to kill .
The intention of altering the title from "Amhara Genocide" to “Massacres of Amharas" is a deliberate & organized intent to minimize, downgrade the genocide of Amharas, and insult the innocent Amhara women and children who were/are victims of genocide in various parts of Ethiopia. Instead of acknowledging and showing contrition for the thousand innocent Amhara civilians that are being persecuted in Ethiopia; altering the Phrase Amhara Genocide to Amhara Massacre downgrades/minimizes the suffering of the innocent . Therefore, I completely oppose the changing of this article title from Amhara Genocide to Massacres of Amharas. The title of the article "Amhara Genocide" should remain as is. Lakomelza Bete-Amhara ( talk) 03:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
users such as Boud are more interested in altering phrases to downgrade and minimize AmharaGenocide. This is called a personal attack and is unacceptable on Wikipedia. It is a logical fallacy, not an argument. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
BiniamAmbachew (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC) Lakomelza Bete-Amhara 03:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC), which was confusing; your second edit removed the BiniamAmbachew (blocked for 48 hours in March 2021) signature; and your third edit softened the personal attack, changing to
users are trying to alter the Phrase Amhara Genocide to Amhara Massacre to downgrade/minimize the suffering of the innocent; this is no longer a personal attack on a specific person, but it's still a general attack on editors instead of an argument. Boud ( talk) 10:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
the baseless and fabricated reports of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, he does claim that there is an ongoing Amhara genocide. Source four by Al Jazeera English is mostly a summary of an Ethiopian Human Rights Commission report, and both AJE and EHRC qualify as WP:RS; it says that about 750 civilians in Amhara (not necessarily ethnic Amharas) were killed or executed in 2021; it does not claim genocide. Source five is by Gregory Stanton#Genocide Watch, which is a WP:RS; its summary statement is
Genocide Watch is issuing a Genocide Warning for Ethiopia due to the government’s inaction to stop ethnically motivated violence between Oromo, Amhara, Tigrayan and Gedeo peoples, which is not a claim of a current status of genocide against any of the four groups.Your strongest source is the opinion of Girma Berhanu, who is currently un-notable, writes in a currently un-notable source, but does appear to be a faculty member of a well-known university. I don't see properly sourced support for Amhara genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
* Comment: Concerns on bias and behavior of Tendentious editing WP:TE. It is important to capture the issue of bias reflected toward the Amhara content consistently. On the other hand, I couldn’t help noticing that the move requester is an avid editor of the Tigray materials with WP:POVPUSH even in remotely related articles. Please note that there is ongoing conflict between Tigray and Amhara. Such contentious move requests can only give meaning with unbiased and expertise-based editing more importantly on this specific topic. Please see the talk in Talk:Predictions of a genocide in Ethiopia § Requested move 29 November 2021 for previous instance in which the same editor participated in a discussion about another article and the push for the title to be named “Tigray genocide”, even if the content wasn’t solely on Tigray. Another editor had to justify for correcting the poor suggestion. In addition, instead of help improving this article, the requester has been demanding Tendentious editing with numerous unjustified tags while giving no response for the explanations provided. Here is an example Talk:Amhara genocide § Dubious Petra0922 ( talk) 05:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose: The article support the classification of the "Amhara Genocide". The ongoing persecution and genocide of the Amhara people have continued unabated since the 1990s in Ethiopia. According to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II states that " Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: a) killing members of the group; b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." This classification of genocide clearly shows that the purpose of killing the Amharas is an act of genocide and is supported by the article. Amharas are being killed because of their ethnicity. In addition, genocide is being committed with the intention of killing Amharas, and all the sources presented in the article indicate that they killed Amharas only because of their ethnicity and committed genocide. Changing the title of "Amhara Genocide" to "Massacre of the Amharas" is a deliberate denial of the Amhara genocide. Therefore, I strongly object to changing the title of this article from Amhara Genocide to "Massacres of Amharas". The title of the article should remain "Amhara Genocide". NigistA ( talk) 08:04, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
deliberate denial of the Amhara genocide. Boud ( talk) 10:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I am not going to weigh in, but I can provide some relevant journal articles that should probably be included in the article.
the principal question is not “is it genocide?” but, “how can solutions be found to the crises of war, state collapse, starvation and mass atrocity?”
researchers have uncovered the existence of acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Amharas in BGRS.
questions around what is genocide are recognized by all parties to a conflict as a key arena of the larger contention...The Ethiopian government would have experienced significant hurdles in its efforts to retain strong relations with global partners if the international community had determined that it was engaging in genocide(suggesting perhaps that the international community did not come to this consensus?)
Larataguera ( talk) 13:38, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
... Amharas are claiming on how they have repeatedly killed ...); a publisher normally pays language editors/proofreaders to propose language fixes to a research article after peer reviewers have accepted the article. This is not the fault of the authors - non-native English speakers are not going to write perfect English - it's the publisher's fault. A key quote from reference 4 is
The process through which Darfur was labelled as genocide was deeply contentious and raised deep issues about how the world should position itself with regard to violence, particularly in Africa and the Islamic world. As Irvin-Erickson argued, 'genocide discourses' are a type of strategic narrative that shapes the way that individuals and groups position themselves.This strengthens the motivation for the discussion of this RM to be based on good quality sources, keeping in mind the geographical bias in Wikipedia that will tend to undervalue African sources, and to avoid the risk of advocating in one direction or the other. Boud ( talk) 15:17, 15 January 2023 (UTC) In reference 4, more specific to this current discussion is the paragraph on p18 starting
The Amhara diaspora in particular followed the Ogadeni diaspora in its use of the genocide frame.Whether the Amhara diaspora are right or wrong is a matter for WP:RS to say - preferably peer-reviewed sources, and ideally, proofread peer-reviewed sources where the reader doesn't have to guess the intended meaning, but that's up to a matter of judgment for people participating in this discussion and the eventual uninvolved closer. Boud ( talk) 15:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
mass atrocities including systemic genocide and ethnic cleansing on Amharas in Wolqait, Tegede, and Telemt areasLarataguera ( talk) 11:23, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose the original article is very high-quality and provides extensive reference material to support the "Amhara Genocide" designation with diverse sources from human rights organizations, mainstream media outlets, independent organizations and academics. In fact, the references are some of the most extensive I have seen and go far beyond citations used for other, similar articles. The Amhara Genocide is partly unique because there have been multiple perpetrators over an extended period of time. With this being said, it is possible it could grow even larger with more time. In my experience, the term "genocide" is not controversial among mainstream sources but rather among reviewers who have been unfamiliar with the body of evidence. It would be a gross misrepresentation of the evidence to move this article under the "massacres" title. I recommend the reviewers reexamine all of the evidence closely. TheGerazmach ( talk) 02:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Oppose There is in my opinion enough sources that support the current name as WP:COMMONNAME. Dawit S Gondaria ( talk) 18:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Split Since the nominator has changed his position to 'unclear' I propose that information and sources that don't explicitly describe the situation as genocide be moved to Ethnic violence in Ethiopia (preferred) or to Massacres of Amharas. Then when the sheer number of sources in this article is reduced, we can determine if there's enough left to keep the article and what the appropriate title would be. Hopefully in that process, the article can be reworked with a sound basis on best sources available. Larataguera ( talk) 14:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Summarizing per Boud's suggestion: for those who wish to weigh on !vote or change it after holding/reviewing the RM discussion here, I like to share a list of sources that support the current Amhara genocide title. Overall, the discussion seems to focus toward establishing WP:COMMONNAME, through sources that name the Amhara topic as genocide, and the list below is made to support that (ideally to provide information for whomever is closing the RM).
For more examples:
Petra0922 ( talk) 18:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Gondar University has designated a team of 21 scholars and carried out the apocalyptic genocide against the people of Amharaliterally says that Gondar University carried out a genocide against Amharas. Boud ( talk) 23:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
acts of genocide in the provinces of ... genocidal activity that was perpetrated singularly on the Amhara peoplesince the TPLF 1991 takeover of Ethiopia; the AAPO considers the TPLF to have carried out acts of genocide against Amharas while it ruled Ethiopia;(2) Hearing: Democracy ... - this source itself does not directly establish "Amhara genocide", but instead lists multiple testimonies; choosing the one most likely to be favourable to Amharas, Mr. Tewodrose Tirfe, Co-Founder, Amhara Association of America, first witness statement, refers to
ethnic cleansing and genocidal acts againstAmharas and lists 8 events that would be the "event" part of genocide;(3) Ethnic Politics ... (Getasew Endalew+2022, International Journal on Minority and Group Rights) –
genocide against Amharas is executed in BGRS, referring to internal ref 26 = The Amhara Genocide Ignored by the World: A study of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Amhara ethnic group from 1991 – 2015 (Moresh Wogene Amhara Organization, 2015);(4) ... Silent genocide: A Quest ... (Achamyeleh Tamiru 2016, Ethio Forum) - the title+author+publisher+year stated by Google Scholar are not usable as a source; but the actual source is archived here – p26:
... silent genocide on Amhara people in general and Wolkait in particular ..., p32:
TPLF was not alone when it was conducting the genocide on the Wolkait-Tegede Amhara. ... to the genocide on the Wolkait-Tsege Amharas. ... ideological underpinning to the genocide on the Wolkait-Tegede Amharas ... genocide of Wolkait-Tsege Amharas that has been happening on a daily basis for the last 36 years ... all the genocides committed on their Amhara brothers; Ethio Forum is well-known, probably ethnically biased (I don't remember; in any case, there seem to be very few non-ethnically biased Ethiopian sources), not yet WP-notable; the author clearly would support the name Amhara genocide;(5) It only reopens old wounds: ... Amhara genocide survivors ... (Adugna Abebe Bihonegn+2022, Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Social Services) – abstract:
... Amhara survivors of the Maikadra massacre; while attribution of "who started" the 9–10 Mar 2020 Mai Kadra Massacre remains contested, with massacres of both Amharas and Tigrayans, the massacre of Amharas is uncontested, and the authors here consider the phrase Amhara genocide to be accurate.It's not clear to me that these establish WP:COMMONNAME, but these five sources do show some usage of terms close enough to Amhara genocide. Whether this is a term widely recognised by scholars independent of Amhara groups is not clear, but research is not currently well-sourced in the more specific Wikipedia articles on the individual massacres; most of the sources are for the past few years, not the 30 years of TPLF federal-level rule. Boud ( talk) 09:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
most of the sources" in the "
more specific Wikipedia articles on the individual massacres"; (1), (2), (3), (4) all cover the TPLF period of rule. Boud ( talk) 16:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
To help differentiate the long list of massacres committed against the ethnically targeted Amhara, i thought it will be helpful to refer to the go-to and reliable source per WP:FACTS, the UN Genocide Convention and its definition: “targeted actions aimed at the destruction of particular groups of people.” [52] Massacres can be categorized into two. The first type is “Intended mass killings of people regardless of any religion on ethnic group,” and the second one gives the equivalent definition of Genocide, which “involves the targeted mass killing of people of a specific race or ethnic group.” [53] “Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
With WP:FACTS, for the above definitions, and also with the verifiable specific sources that state the crimes of genocide, the Amhara genocide article listed various types of genocidal massacres/ethnic-based and massacres involving intent- and this differs from the first type of massacre or killings of people regardless of ethnicity. For the latter, some of the examples are: the massacre of Amhara in the 2005 Addis Ababa mass killings by Federal forces, and other massacres such as historical massacres of the Amhara due to conflict within its group …..or massacres against a whole lot of people in Ethiopia but the Amhara are also killed in mass among other people. Since the early 1990s however, genocidal massacres occurred, per the above definition, and sources show that genocide occurred to this group as the Amhara have been separated based on their ethnic identity and killed in mass. That is why I present this argument to justify the current title is within its scope. However per Larataguera's suggestion other types of non-genocidal violence against the Amhara and the other ethnic groups warrant an independent article, and I see Ethnic violence in Ethiopia fits best since there is already an article exists with, List of massacres in_Ethiopia, with some list for the Amhara and thought redundancy can be avoided. With the Split, I can see that the violations listed under the Crimes against humanity and War Crime sections, the violations against the Afar people and various ethnic groups in the Southern and Eastern regions, including other sections that provide general background could move into the Ethnic violence in Ethiopia. I see the proposed title, massacres of Amhara by Boud could work with some modification, if the title specifies its scope to the non-genocidal Amhara massacres- examples are listed above. Perhaps, the alternative titles to the massacres of Amhara could be Non-genocidal massacres of the Amhara, or Massacres of the Amhara pre-ethnic conflict, or Pre-ethnic conflict massacres of Amhara...and so on. Petra0922 ( talk) 21:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate (while being aware that close paraphrasing can still violate copyright). Then submitted the draft to AfC and it was accepted as Class B. Another editor found issues in Citation style but re-rated it to "B" after satisfying the CS requirements. I bring this up to explain the process, the approach to paraphrasing, and how that seems to lead to WP:OR, based on the recent Tag. This is where I found
content be written in Wikipedia editors' own wordsversus the WP:OR Tag, contradicting. I also like to add, the WP:OR § What is not original research and how the article was using this logic throughout when written:
A, and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article.In this article the sources followed this principle: “A” & “B” provide the same context/argument and are captured as, therefore “C”. Could you please help me understand this? I found this to be pretty conflicting. Thank you. Petra0922 ( talk) 18:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)