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Why I changed this:
It is seen as a very serious crime as it seeks to usurp the authority of the courts, because it can lead to miscarriages of justice.
To this:
In some cases it results in miscarriages of justice.
First, "it is seen as a very serious crime" is just a sneaky way of incorporating someone's POV - it still presents an opinion. Serious compared to murder? Common assault? How can you judge?
Second "it seeks to usurp the authority of the courts." This is also an opinion, since no one knows everyone's reasons for lying. Some may lie because they fear false conviction, or because they mistrust the legal establishment - not necessarily an intent to usurp authority. Besides, just to give my own POV here on the talk page, I think "usurp" is hyperbolic and "authority" is questionable - judges have power, not authority, and only perceive themselves to have any authority due to myths such as "social contract" and "democracy."
So I just left the information: it sometimes results in miscarriages of justice. The seriousness, or what the person is seeking, let readers make their own judgements. 24.64.223.203 00:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking of changing this to "the penalties indicate that it is considered a very serious crime". which would be supported by the next sentence. i'll think about the best way to word it, and add it. -Indalcecio 21:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Martha Stewart was convicted of conspiracy, making false statements, and obstruction of justice, not perjury. Lying to investigators and lying on the stand are two separate offenses.
74.66.227.6 20:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Tonia Samman
Fair point ( http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/05/news/companies/martha_verdict/) - given that this is a law article, it should be accurate, so I'm amending that entry to read "conspiracy to commit". 91.84.120.88 ( talk) 01:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following
"* Vice President of the United States Noah Daniels was forced by President Wayne Palmer to resign from office after his Chief of Staff, Tom Lennox, recorded Daniels conspiring to commit purjury. This occured on the popular television program 24."
I don't think examples from fiction belong here, and if they do they should be in their own section. -- Darksun 01:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
See the answer to your question at Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.75.201.208 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 June 2007
The information posted about Clinton's perjury is incorrect. The Senate did not clear him of perjury charges. They only voted not to remove him from office. Many of the voting Senators made this claim themselves, stating that Clinton would be subject to prosecution for the perjury charge after he left office.
And Clinton was going to be prosecuted for perjury when he left office. That's why he accepted a plea bargain from the federal prosecutor Robert Ray, where he admitted to perjury in exchange for the promise not to be prosecuted.
Since Clinton accepted a plea bargain in the same way as Mark Fuhrman did, they should both be listed as convicted of perjury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdw1958 ( talk • contribs) 01:51, 6 August 2007
Looking at the history, I am having trouble finding when that number came in. It is unsourced. On its face it is unreliable, and should be "undone." The 8-plus million dollars was the amount of the settlement paid to settle the whistleblower protection at case and keep the text messages secret. 7&6=thirteen ( talk) 19:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
The information that perjury is not possible in germany is wrong. A person that commits perjury in germany will go to prison at least for one year and up to 15 years. See [1] (it's in german). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.79.126.18 ( talk) 10:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the Laws of Manu, an ancient Sanskrit text, false evidence is considered a ground for reversing a judgment, and whatever has been done is to be considered as undone. False evidence is seen as arising from possible motives of covetousness, distraction, terror, friendship, lust, wrath, ignorance, and/or childishness. It is not clear whether this list is intended to be exhaustive. Various fines are prescribed if perjury is committed, depending upon what the motive is rather than the effect on the case, as well as banishment, unless the witness is of the highest "Brahmana" caste in which case, no fine is prescribed as a penalty. This is evident from Chapter VIII, verses 117 - 123 of the George Buhler translation in the Sacred Books of the East series edited by Max Muller.
There would be difficulties implementing this in the legal systems of English speaking countries because the criminal law shies away from making findings about motive, perhaps because it is so difficult sometimes to discern, and motives may be mixed. It is also hard in practice sometimes to distinguish giving false evidence from perjury. Moreover, banishment is no longer used as a punishment, and there is no open acknowledgement of different castes in society as there were in ancient India. We are all presumed to be equal before the law, although the credibility of our testimonies might not be considered of equal weight. But the text does enunciate what might be perceived as possible motives for giving false evidence, whether this amounts to perjury or not. Another difficulty might be that what has been done, may not always, necessarily be undone, because the judgment may have already been irreversibly enforced, even if perjury is brought to light beyond reasonable doubt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.189.93.244 ( talk) 20:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
This section of the article is exceedingly difficult to read because it is just a wall of text. I will be marking it as such, but if anyone has good ideas on how we can split this section up a bit, that would be awesome. Right now I'm at work, so I don't have the time to do it myself. Zell Faze ( talk) 17:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Perjury article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
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Why I changed this:
It is seen as a very serious crime as it seeks to usurp the authority of the courts, because it can lead to miscarriages of justice.
To this:
In some cases it results in miscarriages of justice.
First, "it is seen as a very serious crime" is just a sneaky way of incorporating someone's POV - it still presents an opinion. Serious compared to murder? Common assault? How can you judge?
Second "it seeks to usurp the authority of the courts." This is also an opinion, since no one knows everyone's reasons for lying. Some may lie because they fear false conviction, or because they mistrust the legal establishment - not necessarily an intent to usurp authority. Besides, just to give my own POV here on the talk page, I think "usurp" is hyperbolic and "authority" is questionable - judges have power, not authority, and only perceive themselves to have any authority due to myths such as "social contract" and "democracy."
So I just left the information: it sometimes results in miscarriages of justice. The seriousness, or what the person is seeking, let readers make their own judgements. 24.64.223.203 00:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking of changing this to "the penalties indicate that it is considered a very serious crime". which would be supported by the next sentence. i'll think about the best way to word it, and add it. -Indalcecio 21:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Martha Stewart was convicted of conspiracy, making false statements, and obstruction of justice, not perjury. Lying to investigators and lying on the stand are two separate offenses.
74.66.227.6 20:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Tonia Samman
Fair point ( http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/05/news/companies/martha_verdict/) - given that this is a law article, it should be accurate, so I'm amending that entry to read "conspiracy to commit". 91.84.120.88 ( talk) 01:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following
"* Vice President of the United States Noah Daniels was forced by President Wayne Palmer to resign from office after his Chief of Staff, Tom Lennox, recorded Daniels conspiring to commit purjury. This occured on the popular television program 24."
I don't think examples from fiction belong here, and if they do they should be in their own section. -- Darksun 01:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
See the answer to your question at Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.75.201.208 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 June 2007
The information posted about Clinton's perjury is incorrect. The Senate did not clear him of perjury charges. They only voted not to remove him from office. Many of the voting Senators made this claim themselves, stating that Clinton would be subject to prosecution for the perjury charge after he left office.
And Clinton was going to be prosecuted for perjury when he left office. That's why he accepted a plea bargain from the federal prosecutor Robert Ray, where he admitted to perjury in exchange for the promise not to be prosecuted.
Since Clinton accepted a plea bargain in the same way as Mark Fuhrman did, they should both be listed as convicted of perjury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdw1958 ( talk • contribs) 01:51, 6 August 2007
Looking at the history, I am having trouble finding when that number came in. It is unsourced. On its face it is unreliable, and should be "undone." The 8-plus million dollars was the amount of the settlement paid to settle the whistleblower protection at case and keep the text messages secret. 7&6=thirteen ( talk) 19:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
The information that perjury is not possible in germany is wrong. A person that commits perjury in germany will go to prison at least for one year and up to 15 years. See [1] (it's in german). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.79.126.18 ( talk) 10:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the Laws of Manu, an ancient Sanskrit text, false evidence is considered a ground for reversing a judgment, and whatever has been done is to be considered as undone. False evidence is seen as arising from possible motives of covetousness, distraction, terror, friendship, lust, wrath, ignorance, and/or childishness. It is not clear whether this list is intended to be exhaustive. Various fines are prescribed if perjury is committed, depending upon what the motive is rather than the effect on the case, as well as banishment, unless the witness is of the highest "Brahmana" caste in which case, no fine is prescribed as a penalty. This is evident from Chapter VIII, verses 117 - 123 of the George Buhler translation in the Sacred Books of the East series edited by Max Muller.
There would be difficulties implementing this in the legal systems of English speaking countries because the criminal law shies away from making findings about motive, perhaps because it is so difficult sometimes to discern, and motives may be mixed. It is also hard in practice sometimes to distinguish giving false evidence from perjury. Moreover, banishment is no longer used as a punishment, and there is no open acknowledgement of different castes in society as there were in ancient India. We are all presumed to be equal before the law, although the credibility of our testimonies might not be considered of equal weight. But the text does enunciate what might be perceived as possible motives for giving false evidence, whether this amounts to perjury or not. Another difficulty might be that what has been done, may not always, necessarily be undone, because the judgment may have already been irreversibly enforced, even if perjury is brought to light beyond reasonable doubt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.189.93.244 ( talk) 20:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
This section of the article is exceedingly difficult to read because it is just a wall of text. I will be marking it as such, but if anyone has good ideas on how we can split this section up a bit, that would be awesome. Right now I'm at work, so I don't have the time to do it myself. Zell Faze ( talk) 17:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Perjury. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:09, 27 February 2016 (UTC)