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Hello user:Uanfala, I’ve seen you revert the included material in both this article and the one of the Inku language. The source I cited talks about the specific terms used for Gypsy’s in Persia/Greater Iran and lists Jat for “Afghanistan/Khorasan”. I personally speak the Persian language as my native one and have lived for years in Afghanistan, the term Jat refers to Gypsy’s, that’s the case in Afghanistan at least. It isn’t restricted to those Afghan Jats, Gypsy’s in Europe are also called Jats in Dari and Pashto(at least among Pashtuns in Afghanistan, not sure about Pakistan), it really just means Gypsy for people from Afghanistan. The source from Iranica is also stating this too. Something like that is essential and has to be mentioned in the article, hence why there were multiple previous attempts by other users to include it which you’ve reverted. Best regards-- Xerxes931 ( talk) 20:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
We can surely add more context to it too, however it’s urgently necessary to add the Gypsy meaning to the article, because that is the basic and common understanding among the Afghan population and their languages, completely excluding the word Gypsy doesn’t seem right to me. How would you suggest to put it in if not the way I did? Maybe it wasn’t the best way I did it but as I said imo it has to be mentioned in some context in the lead at least, due to the linguistic meaning. Pining some Persian-speakers to add their opinion on this User: شاه عباس User:HistoryofIran user:Cabolitae Xerxes931 ( talk) 23:27, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
The use of Jat within an academic context is not a derogatory term as demonstrated by multiple sources which use the term itself as a title. These are in the article itself. RuudVanClerk ( talk) 12:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Ethnographer Aparna Rao [...] introduced the term “peripatetic” for them. It is now most widely used in academia.This is also the term used in the article's sources (except for the Encyclopedia Iranica entry, but even that it explicit that the term is an ambiguous label and not an ethnonym). I still don't get your point about the non-overlap of the terms "Jat" and "peripatetic of Afghanistan". Which ethnic groups would be included in the article if it used one title but excluded if it used the other? – Uanfala ( talk) 13:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
A few days ago a reference to Pstrusińska's book was slotted into the article's first sentence. The full citation is:
Its insertion was apparently done in an attempt at justifying the use of the term "Jat". This does not need justifying: every single source with more than a paragraph on those peripatetic communities will have some mention of the term. I'm going to remove it as an in-line ref, but I'm not sure if we're going to need it in the bibliography: the relevant parts of the text (say, pp. 103–5) are mostly a literature review that regurgitates the points already made by Aparna Rao. There may be a case for keeping it as a tertiary source, or at least as a "further reading" entry (it's got some nice content about the secret languages spoken by some of the peripatetic groups).
Now about the following sentence:
In neighbouring South Asia, the term Jat refers to a large cluster of agriculture castes, some especially in the Balochistan are connected with camel breeding and herding, and it is possible that the Afghan Jat are descended from peripatetic communities that entered Afghanistan in the company of these nomadic Jats, and acquired the name by association. [1] need quotation to verify [2]
References
- ^ Persian Jats by Percy Sykes in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society 1910 3(4):320
- ^ Rao, Aparna (1982). Les Gorbat d'Afghanistan : aspects economiques d'un groupe itinerant "Jat". Editions Recherche sur les civilisations. p. 83.
The first ref is to a 1910 half-page note by P.M. Sykes. Two observations are made there – that there's a social group of Balochistan called "Jat" which specialises in camel husbandry, and that, unrelated to this fact, in the Persian of Sistan the word jat refers to gypsy-like communities. As far as I'm aware both are completely uncontroversial, but they're not relevant in this article. The core statement made in the Wikipedia article – that the "Jats" of Afghanistan got that name from the camel herders of Balochistan – is not made by that source (and that source wouldn't meet WP:HISTRS anyway), so that's out.
The second reference, which was recently added, is to p. 83 of Aparna Rao's 1982 monograph. I've had a look, and what that page contains is detailed descriptions of the contemporary seasonal migration patterns of some groups among the Ghorbat. It doesn't have anything at all on the origins of the "Jats".
I'm going to revert the recent additions and remove that last sentence as unsourced. I'm planning to expand that section with a bit more content on the nomenclature (I should hopefully find the time in the next couple of days). As for the origin of the name "Jats", the name-by-association hypothesis isn't totally implausible, but we can't keep it unless we've got sources. I don't recall seeing anything definitive about the etymology of the word so far, the only exception being Pstrusińska's suggestion (2013:104) that it derives from jāti, but this leaves a lot unanswered and in this form isn't very credible. Better not to have any content than to have content that's dubious. – Uanfala ( talk) 15:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I am requesting an additional viewpoint in relation to this issue. Both involved parties (including myself) disagree as to the title of the article. While I don’t have the right to discuss the other parties reasons, my own reasoning is that Jat is the common name of the topic of discussion and that peripatetic refers to a number of groups that are not necessarily Jats hence I am of the opinion that the article name should be kept as is. Most sources including the Encyclopaedia Iranica article and Aparana Rao’s seminal work which I have referenced also use the term Jat. RuudVanClerk ( talk) 12:40, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
In India, the caste that makes shoes/juta is called Jatav, so some people say that Jats were Chamars/cobbler of Central Asia. Gaur brahmin ( talk) 13:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
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Hello user:Uanfala, I’ve seen you revert the included material in both this article and the one of the Inku language. The source I cited talks about the specific terms used for Gypsy’s in Persia/Greater Iran and lists Jat for “Afghanistan/Khorasan”. I personally speak the Persian language as my native one and have lived for years in Afghanistan, the term Jat refers to Gypsy’s, that’s the case in Afghanistan at least. It isn’t restricted to those Afghan Jats, Gypsy’s in Europe are also called Jats in Dari and Pashto(at least among Pashtuns in Afghanistan, not sure about Pakistan), it really just means Gypsy for people from Afghanistan. The source from Iranica is also stating this too. Something like that is essential and has to be mentioned in the article, hence why there were multiple previous attempts by other users to include it which you’ve reverted. Best regards-- Xerxes931 ( talk) 20:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
We can surely add more context to it too, however it’s urgently necessary to add the Gypsy meaning to the article, because that is the basic and common understanding among the Afghan population and their languages, completely excluding the word Gypsy doesn’t seem right to me. How would you suggest to put it in if not the way I did? Maybe it wasn’t the best way I did it but as I said imo it has to be mentioned in some context in the lead at least, due to the linguistic meaning. Pining some Persian-speakers to add their opinion on this User: شاه عباس User:HistoryofIran user:Cabolitae Xerxes931 ( talk) 23:27, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
The use of Jat within an academic context is not a derogatory term as demonstrated by multiple sources which use the term itself as a title. These are in the article itself. RuudVanClerk ( talk) 12:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Ethnographer Aparna Rao [...] introduced the term “peripatetic” for them. It is now most widely used in academia.This is also the term used in the article's sources (except for the Encyclopedia Iranica entry, but even that it explicit that the term is an ambiguous label and not an ethnonym). I still don't get your point about the non-overlap of the terms "Jat" and "peripatetic of Afghanistan". Which ethnic groups would be included in the article if it used one title but excluded if it used the other? – Uanfala ( talk) 13:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
A few days ago a reference to Pstrusińska's book was slotted into the article's first sentence. The full citation is:
Its insertion was apparently done in an attempt at justifying the use of the term "Jat". This does not need justifying: every single source with more than a paragraph on those peripatetic communities will have some mention of the term. I'm going to remove it as an in-line ref, but I'm not sure if we're going to need it in the bibliography: the relevant parts of the text (say, pp. 103–5) are mostly a literature review that regurgitates the points already made by Aparna Rao. There may be a case for keeping it as a tertiary source, or at least as a "further reading" entry (it's got some nice content about the secret languages spoken by some of the peripatetic groups).
Now about the following sentence:
In neighbouring South Asia, the term Jat refers to a large cluster of agriculture castes, some especially in the Balochistan are connected with camel breeding and herding, and it is possible that the Afghan Jat are descended from peripatetic communities that entered Afghanistan in the company of these nomadic Jats, and acquired the name by association. [1] need quotation to verify [2]
References
- ^ Persian Jats by Percy Sykes in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society 1910 3(4):320
- ^ Rao, Aparna (1982). Les Gorbat d'Afghanistan : aspects economiques d'un groupe itinerant "Jat". Editions Recherche sur les civilisations. p. 83.
The first ref is to a 1910 half-page note by P.M. Sykes. Two observations are made there – that there's a social group of Balochistan called "Jat" which specialises in camel husbandry, and that, unrelated to this fact, in the Persian of Sistan the word jat refers to gypsy-like communities. As far as I'm aware both are completely uncontroversial, but they're not relevant in this article. The core statement made in the Wikipedia article – that the "Jats" of Afghanistan got that name from the camel herders of Balochistan – is not made by that source (and that source wouldn't meet WP:HISTRS anyway), so that's out.
The second reference, which was recently added, is to p. 83 of Aparna Rao's 1982 monograph. I've had a look, and what that page contains is detailed descriptions of the contemporary seasonal migration patterns of some groups among the Ghorbat. It doesn't have anything at all on the origins of the "Jats".
I'm going to revert the recent additions and remove that last sentence as unsourced. I'm planning to expand that section with a bit more content on the nomenclature (I should hopefully find the time in the next couple of days). As for the origin of the name "Jats", the name-by-association hypothesis isn't totally implausible, but we can't keep it unless we've got sources. I don't recall seeing anything definitive about the etymology of the word so far, the only exception being Pstrusińska's suggestion (2013:104) that it derives from jāti, but this leaves a lot unanswered and in this form isn't very credible. Better not to have any content than to have content that's dubious. – Uanfala ( talk) 15:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I am requesting an additional viewpoint in relation to this issue. Both involved parties (including myself) disagree as to the title of the article. While I don’t have the right to discuss the other parties reasons, my own reasoning is that Jat is the common name of the topic of discussion and that peripatetic refers to a number of groups that are not necessarily Jats hence I am of the opinion that the article name should be kept as is. Most sources including the Encyclopaedia Iranica article and Aparana Rao’s seminal work which I have referenced also use the term Jat. RuudVanClerk ( talk) 12:40, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
In India, the caste that makes shoes/juta is called Jatav, so some people say that Jats were Chamars/cobbler of Central Asia. Gaur brahmin ( talk) 13:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)