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The problem is theological when trying to set dates according to the Nicene tradition rather than the ancient Jewish practice. The Scriptures are clear. Pentecost is calculated beginning the first sabbath after Passover not Easter. Passover is the prior authority not the Nicene Easter. The first sabbath after Passover begins the week of weeks or seven weeks of days = 49 days. The day after the seventh sabbath is the day of Pentecost. It always falls on a Sunday and never any other day of the week. Now if you choose to follow the Nicene Easter as the time to set Pentecost, you shift from the day of the crucifixion (Passover) to the resurrection (Sunday) as the time to count 50 days. This creates confusion because many will observe Pentecost on a Sunday when their calculations demand Monday. This is another example where it appears the Christian faith in being anti-semitic will not count from the sabbath after the Passover as the Scriptures demands, but makes up a man made day. Often, the day of Pentecost by Jewish and Nicene calculations falls on the same Sunday. Many times it does not. I believe we should stick to the Jewish and Scriptural calculation and reject the Nicene alteration. Acts0412 ( talk) 15:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC) ___________________________________________
This article says Pentecost is the same as Whitsun and that it is 50 days after Easter. 50 days after Easter is necessarily a Monday, but Whitsun is a Sunday, 49 days after Easter. What's going on? 218.138.251.110 12:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Andrew
u should b stupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.34.243 ( talk) 19:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Whitsun is the seventh day after 'Easter' or 50th day inclusive. Pentecost, however, is the day after the seventh weekly sabbath after or coinciding with the Passover, and so is always on a Sunday. (Although in any article, one would have to include the controversy about calculating it's date, as by the Talmud system it can be other days of the week and is a bit more varied.)
The Apostles kept Pentecost several times - chances are they would have been counting by the jewish system. (It would be wierd, after all, for the Jews to be counting to Pentecost, and the disciples to be counting to Whitsun, and so to be gathering on completely different days!) Jesus was not ressurected on the first day of Passover, so invariably Easter cannot be the same start date to calculate Pentecost.
Neither, however, is Passover unrelated. Orthodox Easter is much closer than the celebration of Easter in the West, as far as it's relation to Passover - but neither is going to give an exact date of 'Pentecost' every year.
(And which system is used when picking the day for Whitsun, Orthodox Easter or Western Easter?)
The articles should not be combined, as they are celebrated on different days - even if the articles may mention each other and Whitsun may be referred to as Pentecost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.204.79 ( talk) 10:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
There was some very immature vandalism on the page, where someone had added the (misspelt) phrase "Jeasus was the first hippy". I have deleted it. Go and play childish jokes elsewhere. Pftaylor 10:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to 'The Day of the Pentergram'. Firstly, I don't think that 'pentergram' is a word. It is not in the Oxford or Merriam-Webster dictionaries and it does not appear on Wikipedia. The only occurrence of it in conection with the Pentecost that shows up on Google is on this page. I suspect that what was meant here was 'pentagram', but I can see no other reference to 'the day of the pentagram' or any reliable connection between the Pentecost and the pentagram.
If anyone wants to put it back, please provide some evidence of the connection. Seth ze 00:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Yikes. This little article needs a lot of work. Mkmcconn 06:26 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I believe that this article may be sufficiently cleaned up now that we can remove the clean-up tag. If a few others could read over it and make sure that you're happy with it too, then that would be great. -- Jarich 10:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't read the entire article; however, I came here to comment on how clear it is. I've been surfing Christian terminology (like ecclesiology, catholicism, orthodoxy, etc.) and most of the articles are so complicated that they left me more confused than when I began. I still don't have a basic understanding of most of what I read. This article alone clarified this term to the point where I believe I have a basic understanding now, finally, of Pentecost and Pentecostal. If it needs cleaning up, that would be for technicalities only, as the article is already very clear and helpful. Please spay/neuter; it saves lives! 06:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Where was the Pentecost service that traditionally had a (paper? white silk?) dove descend on a ring sliding down a long slanting wire? Wetman 20:58, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:23, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In terms of actual Christian theology this is weak. I teach a second grade class that already knows the ideas here. Is this written for adult Christians? Show me the words of Jesus or the apostles about this. This is the second most important event in Christianity after the advent of Jesus. Is this actually all you can say about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Engr.student ( talk • contribs) 11:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sam, just wondering what the point was in trying to disambiguate Passover from Pentecost. Passover or Pesach is the Jewish holiday, and Shavuot occurs 7 weeks later. Pentecost is the Christian holiday that occurs seven weeks after Easter. I'm sure you know all this, so I'm simply curious what your intentions were. JFW | T@lk 17:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pentecost is a Christian Holiday that occurs the morning after seven sabbaths after Passover. (It is also a Jewish holiday.) It is true many Christians have 'altered the date' to make the counting start from Easter - which frankly is a lot easier than counting as God commanded in Leviticus. But that does not change that the calculation of Pentecost, as the Apostles kept it, is in regards to Passover, not 'Easter'. Whitsun, I believe, is 'Pentecost' altered to be calculated from Easter, according to the traditions of man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.204.79 ( talk) 10:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing the redirect. It obviates the need for disambiguation at the top of Passover. JFW | T@lk 17:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the reader should be able to "find what they are looking for", but the previous version was misleading and incorrect.
Old version:
My version:
There is only one small difference between these disambiguation lines, namely the mention of Passover. The article itself makes it abundantly clear that Pentecost is a Christian holiday, and as I stated quite clearly in my edit summary, the term "pentecost" only bears distant causal relationship and should certainly not be disambiguated at the top of the article. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to resolve, Jack. JFW | T@lk 21:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, the pentacost redirect was erroneous, and we should not be promulgating that error. This page is about Ford, the American car manufacturer. See also Mitsubishi. Can we please just leave this alone now? JFW | T@lk 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are contradictory statements about the origins of the term "whitsunday" in the introduction and body of this article. I am not sufficiently learned in the subject to judge which is correct, but it is a rather glaring error.
I'm just wondering if use of the NIV would be better than the version used for the scripture verses here. The NIV, in my opinion, is alot more "readable" and easier to understand. So I'd like to change the verses to NIV for clarity purposes. Are there any objections? ( Cabin Tom 19:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC))
The NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) is the standard text of scholars these days (or at least it appears to be in academic journals) on both sides of the Atlantic. It's generally seen as the most faithful to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but without losing clarity of style. Emilymadcat ( talk) 14:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I've just removed a link to Chode since it was, ahem, rather inappropriate. I can't find any mention of this term in a theological context so maybe someone would like to create an article for it, or just remove the reference (just "50 days after Easter" is fine surely?). Hairy Dude 13:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
49 days after Easter. (7 weeks). It's the 50th day (that means Pentecost in Greek), if Easter is the 1st. And the 8th Sunday (if Easter is the first). -- Lagarto 15:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It is still contradictory as to whether Whitsun is white or not. And I think the bold Whitsun should be mentioned in the first paragraph. -- Henrygb 22:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Most sources (including Meriam Webster) give white. -- Beardo 07:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
As noted first sentance in :
"The name "Whit" does not come from use of white robes/garments worn at baptism. This tradition of wearing white started after Pentecost was called Whit Sunday. The word "whit" comes from the word "wisdom", one of the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Hence the varying names for Pentecost in other countries, individually signifying various gifts, attributes and signs of the Holy Spirit. ( F Noy -Dorchester)"
conflicts with other parts of this page.
The second sentance - what names in other languages. Anyone have examples.
And this "F Noy - Dorchester" - is that a reference. The only F Noy I could find in a google search linked to Dorchester is a firm of car repairers.
-- Beardo 14:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Brewer has:
Whitsunday.
White Sunday. The seventh Sunday after Easter, to commemorate the “Descent of the Holy Ghost” on the day of Pentecost. In the Primitive Church the newly-baptised wore white from Easter to Pentecost, and were called alba’ti (white-robed). The last of the Sundays, which was also the chief festival, was called emphatically Domin’ica in Albis (Sunday in White). 1
Another etymology is Wit or Wisdom Sunday, the day when the Apostles were filled with wisdom by the Holy Ghost. 2
This day Wit-sonday is cald. For wisdom and wit serene fald, Was zonen to the Apostles as this day. Cambr. Univer. MSS., Dd. i. 1, p. 234. (Compare Witten-agemote.) 3
We ought to kepe this our Witsonday bicause the law of God was then of the Holy Wyght or Ghost deliured gostly vnto vs.—Taverner (1540).
This day is called Wytsonday because the Holy Ghost brought wytte and wysdom into Christis disciples … and filled them full of ghostly wytte.—In die Pentecostis (printed by Wynken de Worde).
http://www.bartleby.com/81/17457.html
-- Beardo 14:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there have been some edits that removed all references to Whitsunday until you get to the middle of the article: "...elsewhere in Italy Whitsunday is called Pascha rosatum." I can only surmise that Whitsunday is the same as Pentecost because a search on Whitsunday redirected me to the this article, but there needs to be some language explaining it. Rmesler 21:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Now included a mention in the first paragraph. -- Beardo 01:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia section "When is Pentecost?" begins: "According to Church tradition... "
However, would that one prefer to eschew mere Church tradition and adhere, instead, to an authentic Biblical date for Pentecost:
There is only one (1) genuinely authentic Pentecost, annually!
There is not a separate "Christian" Pentecost on a different date than the Biblical date God has established for the Hebrew High Holy Day of Pentecost (Shavu'ot).
On the first "Christian" Pentecost, the correct date was determined using the Hebrew calendar, it was neither calculated from nor associated with pagan Easter, for the correct annual date of Pentecost is not connected to the date of Easter.
All of the events surrounding the Pentecost of the New Testament (Acts Of The Apostles, Chapter 2) occurred on a major Hebrew High Holy Day, an Annual High Sabbath Day, which is a "Pilgrimage" Sabbath. (About which, see: Ex. 23:14-17; Lev. Chapter 23; Deu. 16:16)
In the Wikipedia > Pentecost section "When is Pentecost?"...
[2]
Pentecost was on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.
Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 8, 2008 - Not on May 11, as stated in Wikipedia.
Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 11, 2016 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.
Remember, there is not a traditional "Christian" Pentecost on some different date, there is only a "False" Pentecost on some different date.
Pentecost always occurs on a Sunday, 50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits. (Not 50 days from Easter!)
The Roman Catholics established the "50 days from Easter" date 300 years after Christ Jesus, around the 4th century, CE; while God established the "50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits" date around the 15th century, BCE.
Whom should one believe to accurately determine the date for Pentecost? God, maybe?
The Feast of First Fruits is always on the Sunday following The Passover.
And, the Sunday following The Passover is when Christ Jesus was resurrected.
And, The Passover is when Christ Jesus was crucified.
But, occasionally (i.e. 2005, 2008, 2016, et. al.), Easter is capricious and falls a month before The Passover. About which, see:
During any given century, a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover about 20% of the time. And, Easter was capricious before there was a Christ, or Christians. Easter has been capricious since its institution over 5,000 years ago.
When a Christian counts 50 days from Easter in hope of determining the date for Pentecost, in those years when a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover (2008), a false date for Pentecost will occur about a month before the authentic Biblical Pentecost. A month before the God-ordained, God-established Pentecost (Shavu'ot) on the Hebrew calendar.
In 2008, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, and most all other Christian denominations that focus so strongly (and wrongly!) on Easter will be falsely and meaninglessly celebrating the Christian Pentecost on May 11, 2008, while the genuinely authentic, God-ordained, God-established Pentecost is 28 days later, on June 8, 2008.
With this information, why would anyone care to celebrate the Christian Pentecost, in 2008, on a false and meaningless date?
And, you might wish to ask yourself: "How could Christ Jesus be resurrected from the dead on any Easter (2008) that occurs a month before the day of His crucifixion, death and burial on The Passover?" To be resurrected before having died would be one of the greatest miracles, ever! -- Hankdm 08:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Gos also said not to use grace as an excuse to sin, or to exchange truth for a lie. Actually claiming one of his Holy days is on a different date would classify as lying. (Choosing to celebrate it then may be a different topic.) He also said not to inquire after pagans and their customs and to copycat. Also, the passage about feast, new moons, and sabbath days was in regards to the -particulars- of those days. Not to judge people over whether or not they light fires on the Sabbath, or wash their hands ten times, etc! He never claimed the days changed. Note, also, that those same Holy days will be celebrated in the Millenial Kingdom by Israel, and all nations will go up to Jerusalem to participate with them. Yes, we are under grace and not the law - a very wondrous thing. But God's truth is not dictated by the whims and traditions of man.
How does one undo the vandalism? Dawn22 16:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It starts with discernment: reading the word and recognizing what God says vs. what became a later tradition or what was based off earlier tradition. Simply being able to recognize truth from lies, rather than acceptiong every tradition at face value, is the first step. Second - do not spread the lie, and defend the truth. As to the celebrations - it becomes a matter of the heart. What is God convicting you to do? Certainly we cannot lie to our fellow man or children or mix the gospel with lies, even for the sake of goodwill or seemingly good reasons. But if there is nothing in the Word to say we are wrong, and we are not causing our fellow man to stumble, then it is up to our own hearts and between us and God. The vandalism will not be easily undone - but the more Christians who take a step back to evaluate where their extra-Biblical practices came from, and whther they are of profit, or misleadind, then perhaps like yeast it will cause a reverse effect and begin to heal the damage.
The following text was added by User:Hankdm in January to the Etymology section.
I've removed it. Please feel free to integrate the information contained here into the article.
Jarich 05:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This article does need a thorough revision. Pentecost is definiticely NOT one of the three major Mosaic feasts. This is a misleading statement. It is a Christian Holiday devoted to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which is also understood as foundation of the Christian Church (by the vast majority of Christian tradition). Its date is always the 50th day after Christian Easter in any count.
- By 'any' count? By the majority of Christians celebrating 'traditional' Chrisitian holidays, yes - however there are a number of Christian groups who celebrate Pentecost as the 50th day after the first weekly sabbath after or coinciding with passover (or some similar calculation, I believe that was it), as it fits the Biblical calculation system and would have been how the early apostles calculated it.
The event remembered in the New Testament (St. Luke`s Acts chapter 2) is linked to the Jewish holiday celebrated now as Shavuot which may be called one of the Mosaic feasts. Luke`s dating thus refers to a meeting of the disciples of Christ on that Jewish holiday. It is called the "50th" day by Luke in accordance with Lev. 23,16. Since the Christian Easter count departed from the Jewish calendar the Christian holiday of Pentecost is no more related to Shavuot - thus at least for the last 16 centuries. To the best of my knowledge the topics of shavuot have never played a role in Christian Pentecoste liturgy. It may well be that in the days of Luke "Pentekoste" was an expression among Greek speaking Jews for the Jewish holiday of Shavuot - I am not aware of a historical source for that outside the Christian Tradition.
Thus also the reference to the Strongs Concordance in the first sentence -by itself absolutely correct- is strongly misleading. This is an exegetical explanation for Luke's usage of the term - not a reference to the actual Christian holiday.
I have no time for an edit war that's why I am not changing the text right away - the article has been edited around the present mixup for too long by too many people to expect them to accept a straight rewrite. Besides my English is not too sure. But as a reference for information the article is of little value as it stands because there is too much mixup in it. -- Kipala 19:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
First, the fact of the holy day presupposes nothing about the literal accuracy of the text; those who celebrate may (though frequently don't) hold such beliefs, but that should have no effect on the article. Secondly, as it's impossible to interpret the text literally, because it contains clear contradictions, and as no reputable scholar accepts a literal interpretation, concentrating on non-literal interpretations is the NPoV approach (though I should point out that I didn't in fact suggest anything like this in what I said, so it's something of a straw man). -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 12:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the tags from the article. I think they produced good results, but are no longer needed. Radu Comanescu 13:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mel Etitis, I'm sorry that you are now an atheist. An atheist will always remove PoV from any text that does not harm Jesus, so I see no issue here. As for the so-called contradiction from John 20:22, the Greek words are Λάβετε πνευμα ‘άγιον, Labete pneuma hagion, Receive the Holy Spirit. And, do you see, that is exactly what happened at the Pentecost: the Apostles were able to receive the Holy Spirit. Best regards. Radu Comanescu 23:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course John 20:22 speaks about a consecration based upon a charism (which is a supernatural gift granted by the Holy Spirit, hence the naming of the Holy Spirit by Jesus), but it is a preparation, too, for the theophany of the Pentecost. As in the days of Moses, near Mount Sinai, special preparation was required for humans that were to experience a theophany associated to a new level of the Revelation. On Mount Sinai, God revealed Himself as Yahweh, ruling - through Tôrâ - over the second level of the Revelation (during the first level, God had revealed Himself as El, Eloah, Elohim). At Pentecost, God reveals Himself as Abba, Father, highlighting - through the Holy Spirit - the role played by the Son in the great scenario of salvation. The level of Abba is the third level, preached and announced by Jesus, established by the Holy Spirit in the act of founding the visible Church. The Church is, in fact, in a certain way, the Tôrâ of the third level. Best regards (and I mean it).
Radu Comanescu 12:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
REVIVED THREAD
This entire article is a disaster. It's biased, factually incorrect, reads like a bad novel at times and in some places is just not finished (see the final paragraph of 'Location of the first Pentecost'). Official plea for someone to begin rewrites of a higher standard - I suggest it is added back to 'clean-up'. Guest user WITAN, 23:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.239.90 ( talk)
I removed the {{note|fn_1}} tag under Etymology. It doesn't point to anything, and I don't know what it is supposed to mean. If anyone knows (and can get it to do anything) they can restore it MishaPan 18:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
In Name and origin:
Q: how is Shavuot spelled in Hebrew? Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 07:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It is spelled shin-bet-ain-vav-tav. In nikkud writing, these letters have some dots and dashes, indicating that the word must be spelled shabuot with vowels. During history, bet acquired the ability to express a "v", too; so now it needs a dagesh (a dot in its center) in order to indicate that it will be read "b". There is no dagesh in bet here, so we read the word shavuot. Radu Comanescu 08:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I've just added the 2008 date for Pentecost to the top of the page, which should be helpful to the people (such as myself) who came to the page to see roughly when Pentecost is this year.
I am aware that the page duplicates this information in a table somewhat further down the page, but given the significance (Pentecost is a day, and therefore has a date, and is therefore rather central to Pentecost) I have added it as a mini-section at the top of the page.
I anticipate that as the years grow older that someone will post when the 2009, 2010 etc dates are.
87.194.49.123 ( talk) 01:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The Whitsun article does not present sufficient information on its own. More information about Whitsun is presented on the Pentecost article than on its proper article. Whitsun should be merged into Pentecost. Neelix ( talk) 20:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC) jesus was part of pentecost —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.154.234 ( talk) 16:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The first letter (η with an accent over it) shows up as a ? on my browser. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 12:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed the refrence to "Thioiie author of the book of acts" and replaced with "The author of the book of acts"
The main reson is that the Author leaves this information out in the text itsself. Although tradition and early church citations indicate that Luke the Physician (Puals Companion) was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.59.225 ( talk) 19:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There should perhaps be discussion within the article about the debated notion that the Second Vatican Council was a New Pentecost. [3] ADM ( talk) 02:01, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Removed "Many Danes, especially youths, do not know the meaning of Pentecost." because there was no source provided to back up this generalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.116.33 ( talk) 17:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The CEV is a very poor translation of the Greek. I suggest someone seek out a more accurate translation.
35.8.219.44 ( talk) 14:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed a translation error in the part about the public holidays. In this part it says that:
"In Sweden it is not a public holiday, since Pentecost Monday (Annandag Påsk) through a government decision 15 December 2004 was abolished as a public holiday..."
the wrong translation is the part I have put in italic. "Annandag Påsk" do not mean Pentecost Monday but "Easter Monday. The correct Translation is "Annandag Pingst"; http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annandag_Pingst
//Theblacksmith99 ( talk) 18:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't think this text regarding Sweden belongs in the article, so I am going to remove it.
"This made the average work-year 2 hours 17 minutes longer, since Pentecost Monday was always on a Monday, while June 6 moves, so it can occur on a Saturday or Sunday. The unions were not happy, and union-talks 2007 led to guarantees that employees would be compensated for the extra hours."
Sandeylife ( talk) 20:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Pentecost Monday does not seem to be a public holiday in Portugal, that statement appears to be incorrect. See also this: http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/44809/is-pentecost-observed-in-lisbon Can anybody confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:62:4225:6BC2:450C:FE9F:FC6F:652A ( talk) 09:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the reversion of "Glenfarclas" who claims Pentecost is a non-Jewish feast. It is this kind of antisemitism that needs to be addressed in Christian theology. While my intro about Pentecost may need better wording, the real meaning should be straigtway made known. This is not an attempt to hijack this subject but rather bring information to the seeker of truth that is accurate. It is wrong and false to claim Pentecost is Christian in origin and deny its original Jewish beginning. I will not fight this issue with those who are illerate in Biblical understanding. Let me just say my intent was honest and for the purpose of accurate information. I was not attempting to de-Christianize any New Testament meaning or use of Pentecost.
Here is what I added: "Pentecost Means 50th. The Jews count seven sabbaths and the day following the last sabbath which is a Sunday is Pentecost. The count begins the first sabbath after Passover[1]." Would someone tell me what is false about this? Acts0412 ( talk) 01:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Glenfarclas, your response to me is pure antisemitism. You claim Pentecost does not mean 50th is false. Strong's Greek #4004-4005 clearly says it means 50th. This is in direct reference to the seven weeks of sabbaths + one day as observed by the Jews. The word Pentecost is found three times in the New Testament and each time in reference to the Jewish holiday religious feast. This was before there was any attempt by Christians to grab it and make it into something totally different than the Jewish historic day. The day of Pentecost in Acts 2 is the Christian connection to this day. All these other traditions are man-made perversions. Yes, I consider your comments as Jew hating. Your condescending attitude tells me you do not want the Jewish history before the man-made Christian one. What is wrongm with the correct order? Put the man-made stuff after the original order. As far as people not interested in how to calculate the 50 days not being important, that is false. Just look at all the mess of different ones trying to figure it out. Since you are usurping control over this entry and others not allowed to edit it for fact and order, I am going to let this be my last remark about this. You need to consider how offensive you are to people who are Jewish like I am. Trying to make Pentecost into a Gentile holiday when it was not so for the first 300 years of the Church is unacceptable. Acts0412 ( talk) 04:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
The article contained: "Consider Richard Wagner's Das Liebesmahl Der Apostel (The Love Feast of the Apostles) 1841 [cantata for male voices and orchestra.]". I would like to consider that. Wagner, to my knowledge, didn't compose any church music, also "Liebesmahl" would point me to Maundy Thursday (Mahl means Supper), not Pentecost. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
The icon used to illustrate this article shows twelve robed saints (identifiable as such by the iconographic convention of haloes) receiving the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus had twelve Apostles and one of them turned out rotten (to wit: Judas Iscariot), leaving eleven, is this image really appropriate here? Writtenright ( talk) 01:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)writtenright
We really need to reference which version of the Bible we are quoting. Assuming it's a free version, it's not a copyright violation, but it still is technically plagiarism. Unless someone translated it themselves, in which case it is original research. — trlkly 06:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
World Ist Directory & Web Portal for Pentecostals Internationally Recognized and Leading Pentecost Directory Service Provider. website http://www.pentecostdirectory.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentecostdirectory ( talk • contribs) 07:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
There was a statement at the end of the section "Liturgical celebration: Eastern churches" that the NT event occurred at the ninth hour (3 PM) -- presumably to explain the time of day for the Coptic kneeling rite on Pentecost Sunday afternoon. However, Acts 2:15 states that it occurred at the third hour (about 9 AM). Consequently I deleted the aforementioned sentence and added an indication of the time to the section "New Testament" itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horatio325 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
The section called "The Book of Mormon" seems irrelevant to the subject of Pentecost. Can someone tell me what the purpose of this section is? Punk4orchrist ( talk) 15:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)punk4orchrist
Pentecost falls on the tenth day after Ascension Thursday (40 days after Easter).
The sentence above is formally confusing , on its face . This sentence is the last line of the introductory paragraph . I could delve into the formal reasons for this structure/meaning confusion ,but the obviousness of the problem , would argue against any such tiresome chore . The , all too apparent , shoddy syntax , could be easily remedied by the deletion of the parentheses and the addition of 2 words to render the phrase therein , as a clausal construct . Well , " eezy-peezy " you might think - if your inner dialogue included late 90's idiom - but , as it turns out , not so . The last time I engaged in this sort of ad-hoc syntactical smoothing for the purpose of clarifying , not changing , a writer's meaning - I believe it was as basic as, noun-verb number agreement - my virtual knuckles were smartly rapped with a threat to report and then brand me with some odious Acronym . Needless to say , I refrained from reverting , nor did I engage in disputation , for a number of reasons . At this point , I could go on , concerning the distinction between proof-reading and editorial concerns , but I won't - and I won't alter the confused and confusing sentence that occasioned this overly prolix diatribe . Bjhodge8 ( talk) 05:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
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23:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)I realize it's been discussed variously on this page, with different points being made, and in the past. The Jewish Encyclopedia article says the Greek word "Pentecost" was used by some Greek-speaking Jews; appears in the Septuagint. Can we take the sentence "The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name for the Jewish feast" and change it to "The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name, used by some Greek-speaking Jews, for the Jewish feast"? I think it is important for the sake of the article that there be some acknowledgment that it was not simply a juxtaposition of things, which the Christians quite independently decided to call "50 days".
I wonder why the etymology section mentioned above was removed. It seems significant enough to me for this article that the word is used in the Septuagint for the Jewish holiday. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 22:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
As every Sunday and feast in Orthodoxy is preceded with an "all-night vigil", why mention it here? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 22:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I suppose Whit Tuesday should be mentioned. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:32, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Can someone tell me what source they are using for the Septuagint? I started with Exodus 34:22, which our article highlights, and which is translated as "Festival of Weeks" in the New Translation of the Septuagint - the language in the Septuagint is ἀρχὴν θερισμοῦ πυρῶν - this is "beginning of the harvest of wheat" - therismos means harvest ... what is the connection of ἡμέρα to Pentecost? ἡμέρα is used in entirely unrelated passages like Ex. 7:25 (BDAG) but I have not been able to find a direct connection to Pentecost. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Fifty days is sourced in the body, it does not have to be sourced in the lead. It is sourced to BDAG and UBS. Seraphim System ( talk) 21:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
in Jewish culture then, part of a day counts as a whole day, so 50 comes from seven weeks plus and extra day- since you have said this three times, I don't think English is your native language (I'm not saying this to put you down, but we have several editors for whom English is not a native language) - "in Jewish culture then" is a very awkward phrase. This explanation is not necessary for this article because it is not called "The Feast of Seven Weeks" - it is called Pentecost. We do not need to explain that it is seven weeks starting from the Sabbath, plus one day, based on Leviticus 23:16 - because it is not an issue for Pentecost which is not called "Seven Weeks" but is already called the "Fiftieth Day" Seraphim System ( talk) 05:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Jytdog Why do you think restoring unsourced material would satisfy me? Seraphim System ( talk) 08:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
“ | Pentecost is always seven weeks after Easter Day: that is to say, 50 days after Easter (inclusive of Easter Day). | ” |
The first things we get to know today:
If I didn't know I wanted first to know what it is about (Holy Spirit), not how the name was derived. Feast of the Weeks is not a synonym, afaik, but the English phrase of the Hebrew feast that was celebrated already much sooner than Christianity. Better drop that whole thing from the lead, - it's in detail - and then correct - there in the body. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:13, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
To say "In the Septuagint x, and in the apocrypha y", as though the former did not include the latter shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Septuagint is. It is like saying "In the United States x, and in the States of Kansas and Missouri y", as though the latter were not part of the former. If something is in Maccabees and in Tobit then it is in the Septuagint. Any source that says otherwise is misleading, but to be frank I do not believe Seraphim System has correctly understood the source cited. If she or he can provide a quotation from the source that says "Feast of Weeks in the Septuagint, and Feast of 50 Days in the deuterocanonical or apocryphal books", as though the latter were not part of the former, then I will revise my opinion of their competence, and transfer it to the author of their source. The issue of which books of the Septuagint will also be found in a Jewish or Protestant bible is in any case quite irrelevant, as the texts are being cited here as texts in ancient Greek that mention the feast, regardless of their canonical status. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
No, I am saying your comment about Acts is a complete non-sequitur. The word Pentecost is not used in the Septuagint as a translation for Festival of Weeks. That is what this page asserted when I began editing it, and that is what I have corrected. Obscuring the issue to distort what the WP:RS say about this would not be preferable. Please keep in mind this section is only about etymology. I have limited the section to what can be sourced to very strong and widely accepted academic sources, and avoided inserting my own opinions and interpretations. It would be nice if you could do the same. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:42, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
EDNT says the same thing - it distinguishes Tobit and 2 Maccabees from the OT. I am not sure why you feel this merits accusations of Nazism, as I'm fairly confident it is non-controversial. When I started editing this page, it did not even mention that Pentecost was the birth of the Church. You didn't just remove the statement from Kittel, you changed "Feast of Pentecost" to "the Jewish holiday Festival of Weeks" - what's that about? The topic here is not "the use of the word pentecost for a Jewish feast" - this page is not about a Jewish feast, it is about a biblical event that Christians commemorate as the birth of the Church. The first 300 years were the best, or so the story goes. This one statement about etymology is not critical, I didn't even restore it. Seraphim System ( talk) 14:48, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish Festival of Weeks which can be found in the Hebrew Bible. It is called by that name in Exodus 34:22 and Deuteronomy 16:10- That is what the article said, it did not describe how or why the name Pentecost was derived, as you claim, it was just flat out wrong - I am the person who added the corrected sourced version. Seraphim System ( talk) 06:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
I have requested at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Pentecost that uninvolved editors consider what has been happening here. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 00:11, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Rather than insults and edit-warring, might it be a thought to take a deep breath, read WP:5, perhaps WP:CO too, and start trying to reach agreeement? "We're using this", "We're not using that" – shall we perhaps decide together what we are doing? -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 14:43, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
You've made several comments describing this as being about "jewish culture" or a "jewish harvest festival." The diffs are all there for the future. You have said things that are false such as Kittel was the only source I used. I can't really say whether you believe these things are true, but there are diffs that will prove they are not true. Maybe your intentions are good, but how much that matters in the face of evidence is debatable. If you are not willing to listen to feedback about how your comments are coming across, and instead think all the fault lies with another editor, then WP:BRD is not going to be effective, and we will need moderated discussion. Other editors that you pinged for input told you on the noticeboard that they did not see an NPOV problem in the section. You still revised the section, and restored your own personal exegesis of the Septuagint claiming that there were two secondary source references for it — you would not like it if other editors did this. It is your edit that is problematic, and it is your edits that show WP:ADVOCACY and disregard for policy. Especially, pushing it unilaterally after opening a discussion on the NPOV noticeboard certainly does not look good. Even if you did not intend it that way, I am bringing it to your attention. That is how this works. If other editors agree with me in the future, you will not be able to say "But I didn't know, no one told me." Seraphim System ( talk) 10:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
When advocacy is not disclosed, it often manifests through behaviors such as tendentious editing, stonewalling, argumentum ad nauseam or ignoring the opinions of others. When such behavior occurs over a length of time, advocacy is often the cause.Seraphim System ( talk) 13:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The more I think about, the more concerned I am that it is extremely unusual for a book to mention Amos and also mention the Feast of Weeks. The Feast of Weeks is really only discussed in the Pentateuch, with a minor mention in 2 Chronicles. The source that I added for Tobit is a translator's guide — it does say that this should be translated as "Festival of Weeks" but it doesn't offer any insight into interpretation. I'm iffy on including it at all, and I certainly don't think you should push your interpretation of Tobit without a stronger source. You think the relative clause "clarifies further" — I disagree, especially when you consider the verse as a whole, and how loaded the use of the word agia is in this context. "A good dinner was prepared for me .... bring whatever poor person you may find...and he shall eat together with me...one of our own people has been murdered...then I remembered the prophecy of Amos...and I wept." It seems extremely unlikely that the meaning of this passage is the same as Leviticus or Deuteronomy. You say "Jewish Festival of Weeks" like that is a simple non-controversial matter. In this verse interpreting "sacred festival of weeks" is not obvious. Even the NRSV study notes indicates significant disagreement about this amongst scholars. If there is a secondary source for this, I will defer to that source, but it does need a source. Preferably a stronger source then a translation handbook (which is currently the only source provided.) Seraphim System ( talk) 18:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am not sure if we should use this term. I can't find any secondary sources that use it — all I can find are 13th-19th century texts, which use the term to discuss dating of holidays in complex discussions about the liturgical calendar and the correct color of priestly vestments. I know that it's meaning seems fairly obvious, but I'm not sure it's significant enough to risk confusing casual readers, which is the audience we are supposed to be writing for. It's not only "Easter inclusive" it's also "Pentecost inclusive" — it seems it was once widely in use, but only primary sources are available for it and it is not commonly used in English today. Are we going to rename the page "Pentecost inclusive"? — I think we should follow Britannica and the majority of modern sources, which all say "Pentecost is the fiftieth day after Easter." Seraphim System ( talk) 18:38, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
vocabulary changed, and is part of our WP:RS policy. There have been a lot of advances in Biblical scholarship since the 19th century, and as far as Catholicism is concerned, major doctrinal changes. 18th century Catholic sources are only good for historical value—but the entire catechism has been rewritten since then, and they are working from updated translations. We simply have more information then we have in the past (like the Dead Sea Scrolls) — for some reason Biblia Hebraica is still used a lot, but what can you do? The entire NIV translation is based on it, so who am I to argue. If it continues to be a problem, I will repost it to RS/n. Seraphim System ( talk) 23:46, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
1) The unsourced exegesis currently in the article either has to be removed, or sourced (and if a source is added for it, please include a quote for verification). 2) Why should we use KJV when at least two updated translations do not include seven? Only because it includes "seven" and Jpbrenna prefers to use the one English translation that has the word he wants? This seems like more continuation of the extended POV issues on this article. Seraphim System ( talk) 02:58, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion here between 50 days and 50th day... Pentecost as you say stands for fiftieth not 50. 50th day (which is different from 50 days) is equal to 49 days. When you say the first day if the day didn't end you can't claim this = 1 day. The same way you can't claim a baby is one year old until the full year passed. My comment left above still stand true, but I doubt the Church compute to such degree of details as counting mornings to nights... So there really isn't any contradictions because claiming 50th or 49 days... they're synonymous. You guys are fighting when you are saying the same thing in different languages. Yaḥyā ( talk) 06:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi Seraphim, I have found another confusing sentence in the article:
The term Pentecost comes from the Greek Πεντηκοστή (Pentēkostē) meaning "fiftieth". It refers to the festival celebrated on the fiftieth day after Passover, also known as the "Feast of Weeks" in the Septuagint[ii] and the "Feast of 50 days" in rabbinic tradition.[5]
But see what is in the intro:
In Eastern Christianity, Pentecost can also refer to the entire fifty days of Easter through Pentecost inclusive;
If Pentecost can mean those two different things and that if we assume that the Eastern Church is closer to Rabbinistic traditions than Western, than
Feast of 50 days might actually mean the whole festivities including Easter (definition 2), if we take definition 2: it makes 50 days (because they're all inclusive).
Could we assume Feast of Weeks rather refers to definition 1... in which case it would be 7 weeks after Easter... which would be the 50th... it makes 49 days (after Easter).
So here might lie the confusion and the reason behind the conflict in the talkpage. Yaḥyā ( talk) 22:22, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The problem is theological when trying to set dates according to the Nicene tradition rather than the ancient Jewish practice. The Scriptures are clear. Pentecost is calculated beginning the first sabbath after Passover not Easter. Passover is the prior authority not the Nicene Easter. The first sabbath after Passover begins the week of weeks or seven weeks of days = 49 days. The day after the seventh sabbath is the day of Pentecost. It always falls on a Sunday and never any other day of the week. Now if you choose to follow the Nicene Easter as the time to set Pentecost, you shift from the day of the crucifixion (Passover) to the resurrection (Sunday) as the time to count 50 days. This creates confusion because many will observe Pentecost on a Sunday when their calculations demand Monday. This is another example where it appears the Christian faith in being anti-semitic will not count from the sabbath after the Passover as the Scriptures demands, but makes up a man made day. Often, the day of Pentecost by Jewish and Nicene calculations falls on the same Sunday. Many times it does not. I believe we should stick to the Jewish and Scriptural calculation and reject the Nicene alteration. Acts0412 ( talk) 15:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC) ___________________________________________
This article says Pentecost is the same as Whitsun and that it is 50 days after Easter. 50 days after Easter is necessarily a Monday, but Whitsun is a Sunday, 49 days after Easter. What's going on? 218.138.251.110 12:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Andrew
u should b stupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.34.243 ( talk) 19:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Whitsun is the seventh day after 'Easter' or 50th day inclusive. Pentecost, however, is the day after the seventh weekly sabbath after or coinciding with the Passover, and so is always on a Sunday. (Although in any article, one would have to include the controversy about calculating it's date, as by the Talmud system it can be other days of the week and is a bit more varied.)
The Apostles kept Pentecost several times - chances are they would have been counting by the jewish system. (It would be wierd, after all, for the Jews to be counting to Pentecost, and the disciples to be counting to Whitsun, and so to be gathering on completely different days!) Jesus was not ressurected on the first day of Passover, so invariably Easter cannot be the same start date to calculate Pentecost.
Neither, however, is Passover unrelated. Orthodox Easter is much closer than the celebration of Easter in the West, as far as it's relation to Passover - but neither is going to give an exact date of 'Pentecost' every year.
(And which system is used when picking the day for Whitsun, Orthodox Easter or Western Easter?)
The articles should not be combined, as they are celebrated on different days - even if the articles may mention each other and Whitsun may be referred to as Pentecost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.204.79 ( talk) 10:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
There was some very immature vandalism on the page, where someone had added the (misspelt) phrase "Jeasus was the first hippy". I have deleted it. Go and play childish jokes elsewhere. Pftaylor 10:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to 'The Day of the Pentergram'. Firstly, I don't think that 'pentergram' is a word. It is not in the Oxford or Merriam-Webster dictionaries and it does not appear on Wikipedia. The only occurrence of it in conection with the Pentecost that shows up on Google is on this page. I suspect that what was meant here was 'pentagram', but I can see no other reference to 'the day of the pentagram' or any reliable connection between the Pentecost and the pentagram.
If anyone wants to put it back, please provide some evidence of the connection. Seth ze 00:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Yikes. This little article needs a lot of work. Mkmcconn 06:26 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I believe that this article may be sufficiently cleaned up now that we can remove the clean-up tag. If a few others could read over it and make sure that you're happy with it too, then that would be great. -- Jarich 10:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't read the entire article; however, I came here to comment on how clear it is. I've been surfing Christian terminology (like ecclesiology, catholicism, orthodoxy, etc.) and most of the articles are so complicated that they left me more confused than when I began. I still don't have a basic understanding of most of what I read. This article alone clarified this term to the point where I believe I have a basic understanding now, finally, of Pentecost and Pentecostal. If it needs cleaning up, that would be for technicalities only, as the article is already very clear and helpful. Please spay/neuter; it saves lives! 06:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Where was the Pentecost service that traditionally had a (paper? white silk?) dove descend on a ring sliding down a long slanting wire? Wetman 20:58, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:23, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In terms of actual Christian theology this is weak. I teach a second grade class that already knows the ideas here. Is this written for adult Christians? Show me the words of Jesus or the apostles about this. This is the second most important event in Christianity after the advent of Jesus. Is this actually all you can say about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Engr.student ( talk • contribs) 11:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sam, just wondering what the point was in trying to disambiguate Passover from Pentecost. Passover or Pesach is the Jewish holiday, and Shavuot occurs 7 weeks later. Pentecost is the Christian holiday that occurs seven weeks after Easter. I'm sure you know all this, so I'm simply curious what your intentions were. JFW | T@lk 17:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pentecost is a Christian Holiday that occurs the morning after seven sabbaths after Passover. (It is also a Jewish holiday.) It is true many Christians have 'altered the date' to make the counting start from Easter - which frankly is a lot easier than counting as God commanded in Leviticus. But that does not change that the calculation of Pentecost, as the Apostles kept it, is in regards to Passover, not 'Easter'. Whitsun, I believe, is 'Pentecost' altered to be calculated from Easter, according to the traditions of man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.204.79 ( talk) 10:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing the redirect. It obviates the need for disambiguation at the top of Passover. JFW | T@lk 17:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the reader should be able to "find what they are looking for", but the previous version was misleading and incorrect.
Old version:
My version:
There is only one small difference between these disambiguation lines, namely the mention of Passover. The article itself makes it abundantly clear that Pentecost is a Christian holiday, and as I stated quite clearly in my edit summary, the term "pentecost" only bears distant causal relationship and should certainly not be disambiguated at the top of the article. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to resolve, Jack. JFW | T@lk 21:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, the pentacost redirect was erroneous, and we should not be promulgating that error. This page is about Ford, the American car manufacturer. See also Mitsubishi. Can we please just leave this alone now? JFW | T@lk 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are contradictory statements about the origins of the term "whitsunday" in the introduction and body of this article. I am not sufficiently learned in the subject to judge which is correct, but it is a rather glaring error.
I'm just wondering if use of the NIV would be better than the version used for the scripture verses here. The NIV, in my opinion, is alot more "readable" and easier to understand. So I'd like to change the verses to NIV for clarity purposes. Are there any objections? ( Cabin Tom 19:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC))
The NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) is the standard text of scholars these days (or at least it appears to be in academic journals) on both sides of the Atlantic. It's generally seen as the most faithful to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but without losing clarity of style. Emilymadcat ( talk) 14:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I've just removed a link to Chode since it was, ahem, rather inappropriate. I can't find any mention of this term in a theological context so maybe someone would like to create an article for it, or just remove the reference (just "50 days after Easter" is fine surely?). Hairy Dude 13:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
49 days after Easter. (7 weeks). It's the 50th day (that means Pentecost in Greek), if Easter is the 1st. And the 8th Sunday (if Easter is the first). -- Lagarto 15:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It is still contradictory as to whether Whitsun is white or not. And I think the bold Whitsun should be mentioned in the first paragraph. -- Henrygb 22:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Most sources (including Meriam Webster) give white. -- Beardo 07:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
As noted first sentance in :
"The name "Whit" does not come from use of white robes/garments worn at baptism. This tradition of wearing white started after Pentecost was called Whit Sunday. The word "whit" comes from the word "wisdom", one of the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Hence the varying names for Pentecost in other countries, individually signifying various gifts, attributes and signs of the Holy Spirit. ( F Noy -Dorchester)"
conflicts with other parts of this page.
The second sentance - what names in other languages. Anyone have examples.
And this "F Noy - Dorchester" - is that a reference. The only F Noy I could find in a google search linked to Dorchester is a firm of car repairers.
-- Beardo 14:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Brewer has:
Whitsunday.
White Sunday. The seventh Sunday after Easter, to commemorate the “Descent of the Holy Ghost” on the day of Pentecost. In the Primitive Church the newly-baptised wore white from Easter to Pentecost, and were called alba’ti (white-robed). The last of the Sundays, which was also the chief festival, was called emphatically Domin’ica in Albis (Sunday in White). 1
Another etymology is Wit or Wisdom Sunday, the day when the Apostles were filled with wisdom by the Holy Ghost. 2
This day Wit-sonday is cald. For wisdom and wit serene fald, Was zonen to the Apostles as this day. Cambr. Univer. MSS., Dd. i. 1, p. 234. (Compare Witten-agemote.) 3
We ought to kepe this our Witsonday bicause the law of God was then of the Holy Wyght or Ghost deliured gostly vnto vs.—Taverner (1540).
This day is called Wytsonday because the Holy Ghost brought wytte and wysdom into Christis disciples … and filled them full of ghostly wytte.—In die Pentecostis (printed by Wynken de Worde).
http://www.bartleby.com/81/17457.html
-- Beardo 14:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears that there have been some edits that removed all references to Whitsunday until you get to the middle of the article: "...elsewhere in Italy Whitsunday is called Pascha rosatum." I can only surmise that Whitsunday is the same as Pentecost because a search on Whitsunday redirected me to the this article, but there needs to be some language explaining it. Rmesler 21:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Now included a mention in the first paragraph. -- Beardo 01:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia section "When is Pentecost?" begins: "According to Church tradition... "
However, would that one prefer to eschew mere Church tradition and adhere, instead, to an authentic Biblical date for Pentecost:
There is only one (1) genuinely authentic Pentecost, annually!
There is not a separate "Christian" Pentecost on a different date than the Biblical date God has established for the Hebrew High Holy Day of Pentecost (Shavu'ot).
On the first "Christian" Pentecost, the correct date was determined using the Hebrew calendar, it was neither calculated from nor associated with pagan Easter, for the correct annual date of Pentecost is not connected to the date of Easter.
All of the events surrounding the Pentecost of the New Testament (Acts Of The Apostles, Chapter 2) occurred on a major Hebrew High Holy Day, an Annual High Sabbath Day, which is a "Pilgrimage" Sabbath. (About which, see: Ex. 23:14-17; Lev. Chapter 23; Deu. 16:16)
In the Wikipedia > Pentecost section "When is Pentecost?"...
[2]
Pentecost was on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.
Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 8, 2008 - Not on May 11, as stated in Wikipedia.
Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 11, 2016 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.
Remember, there is not a traditional "Christian" Pentecost on some different date, there is only a "False" Pentecost on some different date.
Pentecost always occurs on a Sunday, 50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits. (Not 50 days from Easter!)
The Roman Catholics established the "50 days from Easter" date 300 years after Christ Jesus, around the 4th century, CE; while God established the "50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits" date around the 15th century, BCE.
Whom should one believe to accurately determine the date for Pentecost? God, maybe?
The Feast of First Fruits is always on the Sunday following The Passover.
And, the Sunday following The Passover is when Christ Jesus was resurrected.
And, The Passover is when Christ Jesus was crucified.
But, occasionally (i.e. 2005, 2008, 2016, et. al.), Easter is capricious and falls a month before The Passover. About which, see:
During any given century, a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover about 20% of the time. And, Easter was capricious before there was a Christ, or Christians. Easter has been capricious since its institution over 5,000 years ago.
When a Christian counts 50 days from Easter in hope of determining the date for Pentecost, in those years when a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover (2008), a false date for Pentecost will occur about a month before the authentic Biblical Pentecost. A month before the God-ordained, God-established Pentecost (Shavu'ot) on the Hebrew calendar.
In 2008, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, and most all other Christian denominations that focus so strongly (and wrongly!) on Easter will be falsely and meaninglessly celebrating the Christian Pentecost on May 11, 2008, while the genuinely authentic, God-ordained, God-established Pentecost is 28 days later, on June 8, 2008.
With this information, why would anyone care to celebrate the Christian Pentecost, in 2008, on a false and meaningless date?
And, you might wish to ask yourself: "How could Christ Jesus be resurrected from the dead on any Easter (2008) that occurs a month before the day of His crucifixion, death and burial on The Passover?" To be resurrected before having died would be one of the greatest miracles, ever! -- Hankdm 08:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Gos also said not to use grace as an excuse to sin, or to exchange truth for a lie. Actually claiming one of his Holy days is on a different date would classify as lying. (Choosing to celebrate it then may be a different topic.) He also said not to inquire after pagans and their customs and to copycat. Also, the passage about feast, new moons, and sabbath days was in regards to the -particulars- of those days. Not to judge people over whether or not they light fires on the Sabbath, or wash their hands ten times, etc! He never claimed the days changed. Note, also, that those same Holy days will be celebrated in the Millenial Kingdom by Israel, and all nations will go up to Jerusalem to participate with them. Yes, we are under grace and not the law - a very wondrous thing. But God's truth is not dictated by the whims and traditions of man.
How does one undo the vandalism? Dawn22 16:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It starts with discernment: reading the word and recognizing what God says vs. what became a later tradition or what was based off earlier tradition. Simply being able to recognize truth from lies, rather than acceptiong every tradition at face value, is the first step. Second - do not spread the lie, and defend the truth. As to the celebrations - it becomes a matter of the heart. What is God convicting you to do? Certainly we cannot lie to our fellow man or children or mix the gospel with lies, even for the sake of goodwill or seemingly good reasons. But if there is nothing in the Word to say we are wrong, and we are not causing our fellow man to stumble, then it is up to our own hearts and between us and God. The vandalism will not be easily undone - but the more Christians who take a step back to evaluate where their extra-Biblical practices came from, and whther they are of profit, or misleadind, then perhaps like yeast it will cause a reverse effect and begin to heal the damage.
The following text was added by User:Hankdm in January to the Etymology section.
I've removed it. Please feel free to integrate the information contained here into the article.
Jarich 05:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This article does need a thorough revision. Pentecost is definiticely NOT one of the three major Mosaic feasts. This is a misleading statement. It is a Christian Holiday devoted to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which is also understood as foundation of the Christian Church (by the vast majority of Christian tradition). Its date is always the 50th day after Christian Easter in any count.
- By 'any' count? By the majority of Christians celebrating 'traditional' Chrisitian holidays, yes - however there are a number of Christian groups who celebrate Pentecost as the 50th day after the first weekly sabbath after or coinciding with passover (or some similar calculation, I believe that was it), as it fits the Biblical calculation system and would have been how the early apostles calculated it.
The event remembered in the New Testament (St. Luke`s Acts chapter 2) is linked to the Jewish holiday celebrated now as Shavuot which may be called one of the Mosaic feasts. Luke`s dating thus refers to a meeting of the disciples of Christ on that Jewish holiday. It is called the "50th" day by Luke in accordance with Lev. 23,16. Since the Christian Easter count departed from the Jewish calendar the Christian holiday of Pentecost is no more related to Shavuot - thus at least for the last 16 centuries. To the best of my knowledge the topics of shavuot have never played a role in Christian Pentecoste liturgy. It may well be that in the days of Luke "Pentekoste" was an expression among Greek speaking Jews for the Jewish holiday of Shavuot - I am not aware of a historical source for that outside the Christian Tradition.
Thus also the reference to the Strongs Concordance in the first sentence -by itself absolutely correct- is strongly misleading. This is an exegetical explanation for Luke's usage of the term - not a reference to the actual Christian holiday.
I have no time for an edit war that's why I am not changing the text right away - the article has been edited around the present mixup for too long by too many people to expect them to accept a straight rewrite. Besides my English is not too sure. But as a reference for information the article is of little value as it stands because there is too much mixup in it. -- Kipala 19:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
First, the fact of the holy day presupposes nothing about the literal accuracy of the text; those who celebrate may (though frequently don't) hold such beliefs, but that should have no effect on the article. Secondly, as it's impossible to interpret the text literally, because it contains clear contradictions, and as no reputable scholar accepts a literal interpretation, concentrating on non-literal interpretations is the NPoV approach (though I should point out that I didn't in fact suggest anything like this in what I said, so it's something of a straw man). -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 12:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the tags from the article. I think they produced good results, but are no longer needed. Radu Comanescu 13:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mel Etitis, I'm sorry that you are now an atheist. An atheist will always remove PoV from any text that does not harm Jesus, so I see no issue here. As for the so-called contradiction from John 20:22, the Greek words are Λάβετε πνευμα ‘άγιον, Labete pneuma hagion, Receive the Holy Spirit. And, do you see, that is exactly what happened at the Pentecost: the Apostles were able to receive the Holy Spirit. Best regards. Radu Comanescu 23:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course John 20:22 speaks about a consecration based upon a charism (which is a supernatural gift granted by the Holy Spirit, hence the naming of the Holy Spirit by Jesus), but it is a preparation, too, for the theophany of the Pentecost. As in the days of Moses, near Mount Sinai, special preparation was required for humans that were to experience a theophany associated to a new level of the Revelation. On Mount Sinai, God revealed Himself as Yahweh, ruling - through Tôrâ - over the second level of the Revelation (during the first level, God had revealed Himself as El, Eloah, Elohim). At Pentecost, God reveals Himself as Abba, Father, highlighting - through the Holy Spirit - the role played by the Son in the great scenario of salvation. The level of Abba is the third level, preached and announced by Jesus, established by the Holy Spirit in the act of founding the visible Church. The Church is, in fact, in a certain way, the Tôrâ of the third level. Best regards (and I mean it).
Radu Comanescu 12:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
REVIVED THREAD
This entire article is a disaster. It's biased, factually incorrect, reads like a bad novel at times and in some places is just not finished (see the final paragraph of 'Location of the first Pentecost'). Official plea for someone to begin rewrites of a higher standard - I suggest it is added back to 'clean-up'. Guest user WITAN, 23:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.239.90 ( talk)
I removed the {{note|fn_1}} tag under Etymology. It doesn't point to anything, and I don't know what it is supposed to mean. If anyone knows (and can get it to do anything) they can restore it MishaPan 18:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
In Name and origin:
Q: how is Shavuot spelled in Hebrew? Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 07:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It is spelled shin-bet-ain-vav-tav. In nikkud writing, these letters have some dots and dashes, indicating that the word must be spelled shabuot with vowels. During history, bet acquired the ability to express a "v", too; so now it needs a dagesh (a dot in its center) in order to indicate that it will be read "b". There is no dagesh in bet here, so we read the word shavuot. Radu Comanescu 08:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I've just added the 2008 date for Pentecost to the top of the page, which should be helpful to the people (such as myself) who came to the page to see roughly when Pentecost is this year.
I am aware that the page duplicates this information in a table somewhat further down the page, but given the significance (Pentecost is a day, and therefore has a date, and is therefore rather central to Pentecost) I have added it as a mini-section at the top of the page.
I anticipate that as the years grow older that someone will post when the 2009, 2010 etc dates are.
87.194.49.123 ( talk) 01:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The Whitsun article does not present sufficient information on its own. More information about Whitsun is presented on the Pentecost article than on its proper article. Whitsun should be merged into Pentecost. Neelix ( talk) 20:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC) jesus was part of pentecost —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.154.234 ( talk) 16:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The first letter (η with an accent over it) shows up as a ? on my browser. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 12:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed the refrence to "Thioiie author of the book of acts" and replaced with "The author of the book of acts"
The main reson is that the Author leaves this information out in the text itsself. Although tradition and early church citations indicate that Luke the Physician (Puals Companion) was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.59.225 ( talk) 19:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There should perhaps be discussion within the article about the debated notion that the Second Vatican Council was a New Pentecost. [3] ADM ( talk) 02:01, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Removed "Many Danes, especially youths, do not know the meaning of Pentecost." because there was no source provided to back up this generalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.116.33 ( talk) 17:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The CEV is a very poor translation of the Greek. I suggest someone seek out a more accurate translation.
35.8.219.44 ( talk) 14:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed a translation error in the part about the public holidays. In this part it says that:
"In Sweden it is not a public holiday, since Pentecost Monday (Annandag Påsk) through a government decision 15 December 2004 was abolished as a public holiday..."
the wrong translation is the part I have put in italic. "Annandag Påsk" do not mean Pentecost Monday but "Easter Monday. The correct Translation is "Annandag Pingst"; http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annandag_Pingst
//Theblacksmith99 ( talk) 18:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't think this text regarding Sweden belongs in the article, so I am going to remove it.
"This made the average work-year 2 hours 17 minutes longer, since Pentecost Monday was always on a Monday, while June 6 moves, so it can occur on a Saturday or Sunday. The unions were not happy, and union-talks 2007 led to guarantees that employees would be compensated for the extra hours."
Sandeylife ( talk) 20:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Pentecost Monday does not seem to be a public holiday in Portugal, that statement appears to be incorrect. See also this: http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/44809/is-pentecost-observed-in-lisbon Can anybody confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:62:4225:6BC2:450C:FE9F:FC6F:652A ( talk) 09:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the reversion of "Glenfarclas" who claims Pentecost is a non-Jewish feast. It is this kind of antisemitism that needs to be addressed in Christian theology. While my intro about Pentecost may need better wording, the real meaning should be straigtway made known. This is not an attempt to hijack this subject but rather bring information to the seeker of truth that is accurate. It is wrong and false to claim Pentecost is Christian in origin and deny its original Jewish beginning. I will not fight this issue with those who are illerate in Biblical understanding. Let me just say my intent was honest and for the purpose of accurate information. I was not attempting to de-Christianize any New Testament meaning or use of Pentecost.
Here is what I added: "Pentecost Means 50th. The Jews count seven sabbaths and the day following the last sabbath which is a Sunday is Pentecost. The count begins the first sabbath after Passover[1]." Would someone tell me what is false about this? Acts0412 ( talk) 01:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Glenfarclas, your response to me is pure antisemitism. You claim Pentecost does not mean 50th is false. Strong's Greek #4004-4005 clearly says it means 50th. This is in direct reference to the seven weeks of sabbaths + one day as observed by the Jews. The word Pentecost is found three times in the New Testament and each time in reference to the Jewish holiday religious feast. This was before there was any attempt by Christians to grab it and make it into something totally different than the Jewish historic day. The day of Pentecost in Acts 2 is the Christian connection to this day. All these other traditions are man-made perversions. Yes, I consider your comments as Jew hating. Your condescending attitude tells me you do not want the Jewish history before the man-made Christian one. What is wrongm with the correct order? Put the man-made stuff after the original order. As far as people not interested in how to calculate the 50 days not being important, that is false. Just look at all the mess of different ones trying to figure it out. Since you are usurping control over this entry and others not allowed to edit it for fact and order, I am going to let this be my last remark about this. You need to consider how offensive you are to people who are Jewish like I am. Trying to make Pentecost into a Gentile holiday when it was not so for the first 300 years of the Church is unacceptable. Acts0412 ( talk) 04:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
The article contained: "Consider Richard Wagner's Das Liebesmahl Der Apostel (The Love Feast of the Apostles) 1841 [cantata for male voices and orchestra.]". I would like to consider that. Wagner, to my knowledge, didn't compose any church music, also "Liebesmahl" would point me to Maundy Thursday (Mahl means Supper), not Pentecost. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
The icon used to illustrate this article shows twelve robed saints (identifiable as such by the iconographic convention of haloes) receiving the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus had twelve Apostles and one of them turned out rotten (to wit: Judas Iscariot), leaving eleven, is this image really appropriate here? Writtenright ( talk) 01:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)writtenright
We really need to reference which version of the Bible we are quoting. Assuming it's a free version, it's not a copyright violation, but it still is technically plagiarism. Unless someone translated it themselves, in which case it is original research. — trlkly 06:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
World Ist Directory & Web Portal for Pentecostals Internationally Recognized and Leading Pentecost Directory Service Provider. website http://www.pentecostdirectory.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pentecostdirectory ( talk • contribs) 07:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
There was a statement at the end of the section "Liturgical celebration: Eastern churches" that the NT event occurred at the ninth hour (3 PM) -- presumably to explain the time of day for the Coptic kneeling rite on Pentecost Sunday afternoon. However, Acts 2:15 states that it occurred at the third hour (about 9 AM). Consequently I deleted the aforementioned sentence and added an indication of the time to the section "New Testament" itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horatio325 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
The section called "The Book of Mormon" seems irrelevant to the subject of Pentecost. Can someone tell me what the purpose of this section is? Punk4orchrist ( talk) 15:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)punk4orchrist
Pentecost falls on the tenth day after Ascension Thursday (40 days after Easter).
The sentence above is formally confusing , on its face . This sentence is the last line of the introductory paragraph . I could delve into the formal reasons for this structure/meaning confusion ,but the obviousness of the problem , would argue against any such tiresome chore . The , all too apparent , shoddy syntax , could be easily remedied by the deletion of the parentheses and the addition of 2 words to render the phrase therein , as a clausal construct . Well , " eezy-peezy " you might think - if your inner dialogue included late 90's idiom - but , as it turns out , not so . The last time I engaged in this sort of ad-hoc syntactical smoothing for the purpose of clarifying , not changing , a writer's meaning - I believe it was as basic as, noun-verb number agreement - my virtual knuckles were smartly rapped with a threat to report and then brand me with some odious Acronym . Needless to say , I refrained from reverting , nor did I engage in disputation , for a number of reasons . At this point , I could go on , concerning the distinction between proof-reading and editorial concerns , but I won't - and I won't alter the confused and confusing sentence that occasioned this overly prolix diatribe . Bjhodge8 ( talk) 05:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
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Talk}
23:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)I realize it's been discussed variously on this page, with different points being made, and in the past. The Jewish Encyclopedia article says the Greek word "Pentecost" was used by some Greek-speaking Jews; appears in the Septuagint. Can we take the sentence "The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name for the Jewish feast" and change it to "The word Pentecost derives from the ancient Greek name, used by some Greek-speaking Jews, for the Jewish feast"? I think it is important for the sake of the article that there be some acknowledgment that it was not simply a juxtaposition of things, which the Christians quite independently decided to call "50 days".
I wonder why the etymology section mentioned above was removed. It seems significant enough to me for this article that the word is used in the Septuagint for the Jewish holiday. -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 22:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
As every Sunday and feast in Orthodoxy is preceded with an "all-night vigil", why mention it here? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 22:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I suppose Whit Tuesday should be mentioned. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:32, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Can someone tell me what source they are using for the Septuagint? I started with Exodus 34:22, which our article highlights, and which is translated as "Festival of Weeks" in the New Translation of the Septuagint - the language in the Septuagint is ἀρχὴν θερισμοῦ πυρῶν - this is "beginning of the harvest of wheat" - therismos means harvest ... what is the connection of ἡμέρα to Pentecost? ἡμέρα is used in entirely unrelated passages like Ex. 7:25 (BDAG) but I have not been able to find a direct connection to Pentecost. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Fifty days is sourced in the body, it does not have to be sourced in the lead. It is sourced to BDAG and UBS. Seraphim System ( talk) 21:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
in Jewish culture then, part of a day counts as a whole day, so 50 comes from seven weeks plus and extra day- since you have said this three times, I don't think English is your native language (I'm not saying this to put you down, but we have several editors for whom English is not a native language) - "in Jewish culture then" is a very awkward phrase. This explanation is not necessary for this article because it is not called "The Feast of Seven Weeks" - it is called Pentecost. We do not need to explain that it is seven weeks starting from the Sabbath, plus one day, based on Leviticus 23:16 - because it is not an issue for Pentecost which is not called "Seven Weeks" but is already called the "Fiftieth Day" Seraphim System ( talk) 05:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Jytdog Why do you think restoring unsourced material would satisfy me? Seraphim System ( talk) 08:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
“ | Pentecost is always seven weeks after Easter Day: that is to say, 50 days after Easter (inclusive of Easter Day). | ” |
The first things we get to know today:
If I didn't know I wanted first to know what it is about (Holy Spirit), not how the name was derived. Feast of the Weeks is not a synonym, afaik, but the English phrase of the Hebrew feast that was celebrated already much sooner than Christianity. Better drop that whole thing from the lead, - it's in detail - and then correct - there in the body. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:13, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
To say "In the Septuagint x, and in the apocrypha y", as though the former did not include the latter shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Septuagint is. It is like saying "In the United States x, and in the States of Kansas and Missouri y", as though the latter were not part of the former. If something is in Maccabees and in Tobit then it is in the Septuagint. Any source that says otherwise is misleading, but to be frank I do not believe Seraphim System has correctly understood the source cited. If she or he can provide a quotation from the source that says "Feast of Weeks in the Septuagint, and Feast of 50 Days in the deuterocanonical or apocryphal books", as though the latter were not part of the former, then I will revise my opinion of their competence, and transfer it to the author of their source. The issue of which books of the Septuagint will also be found in a Jewish or Protestant bible is in any case quite irrelevant, as the texts are being cited here as texts in ancient Greek that mention the feast, regardless of their canonical status. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 10:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
No, I am saying your comment about Acts is a complete non-sequitur. The word Pentecost is not used in the Septuagint as a translation for Festival of Weeks. That is what this page asserted when I began editing it, and that is what I have corrected. Obscuring the issue to distort what the WP:RS say about this would not be preferable. Please keep in mind this section is only about etymology. I have limited the section to what can be sourced to very strong and widely accepted academic sources, and avoided inserting my own opinions and interpretations. It would be nice if you could do the same. Seraphim System ( talk) 11:42, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
EDNT says the same thing - it distinguishes Tobit and 2 Maccabees from the OT. I am not sure why you feel this merits accusations of Nazism, as I'm fairly confident it is non-controversial. When I started editing this page, it did not even mention that Pentecost was the birth of the Church. You didn't just remove the statement from Kittel, you changed "Feast of Pentecost" to "the Jewish holiday Festival of Weeks" - what's that about? The topic here is not "the use of the word pentecost for a Jewish feast" - this page is not about a Jewish feast, it is about a biblical event that Christians commemorate as the birth of the Church. The first 300 years were the best, or so the story goes. This one statement about etymology is not critical, I didn't even restore it. Seraphim System ( talk) 14:48, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish Festival of Weeks which can be found in the Hebrew Bible. It is called by that name in Exodus 34:22 and Deuteronomy 16:10- That is what the article said, it did not describe how or why the name Pentecost was derived, as you claim, it was just flat out wrong - I am the person who added the corrected sourced version. Seraphim System ( talk) 06:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
I have requested at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Pentecost that uninvolved editors consider what has been happening here. -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 00:11, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Rather than insults and edit-warring, might it be a thought to take a deep breath, read WP:5, perhaps WP:CO too, and start trying to reach agreeement? "We're using this", "We're not using that" – shall we perhaps decide together what we are doing? -- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 14:43, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
You've made several comments describing this as being about "jewish culture" or a "jewish harvest festival." The diffs are all there for the future. You have said things that are false such as Kittel was the only source I used. I can't really say whether you believe these things are true, but there are diffs that will prove they are not true. Maybe your intentions are good, but how much that matters in the face of evidence is debatable. If you are not willing to listen to feedback about how your comments are coming across, and instead think all the fault lies with another editor, then WP:BRD is not going to be effective, and we will need moderated discussion. Other editors that you pinged for input told you on the noticeboard that they did not see an NPOV problem in the section. You still revised the section, and restored your own personal exegesis of the Septuagint claiming that there were two secondary source references for it — you would not like it if other editors did this. It is your edit that is problematic, and it is your edits that show WP:ADVOCACY and disregard for policy. Especially, pushing it unilaterally after opening a discussion on the NPOV noticeboard certainly does not look good. Even if you did not intend it that way, I am bringing it to your attention. That is how this works. If other editors agree with me in the future, you will not be able to say "But I didn't know, no one told me." Seraphim System ( talk) 10:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
When advocacy is not disclosed, it often manifests through behaviors such as tendentious editing, stonewalling, argumentum ad nauseam or ignoring the opinions of others. When such behavior occurs over a length of time, advocacy is often the cause.Seraphim System ( talk) 13:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The more I think about, the more concerned I am that it is extremely unusual for a book to mention Amos and also mention the Feast of Weeks. The Feast of Weeks is really only discussed in the Pentateuch, with a minor mention in 2 Chronicles. The source that I added for Tobit is a translator's guide — it does say that this should be translated as "Festival of Weeks" but it doesn't offer any insight into interpretation. I'm iffy on including it at all, and I certainly don't think you should push your interpretation of Tobit without a stronger source. You think the relative clause "clarifies further" — I disagree, especially when you consider the verse as a whole, and how loaded the use of the word agia is in this context. "A good dinner was prepared for me .... bring whatever poor person you may find...and he shall eat together with me...one of our own people has been murdered...then I remembered the prophecy of Amos...and I wept." It seems extremely unlikely that the meaning of this passage is the same as Leviticus or Deuteronomy. You say "Jewish Festival of Weeks" like that is a simple non-controversial matter. In this verse interpreting "sacred festival of weeks" is not obvious. Even the NRSV study notes indicates significant disagreement about this amongst scholars. If there is a secondary source for this, I will defer to that source, but it does need a source. Preferably a stronger source then a translation handbook (which is currently the only source provided.) Seraphim System ( talk) 18:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am not sure if we should use this term. I can't find any secondary sources that use it — all I can find are 13th-19th century texts, which use the term to discuss dating of holidays in complex discussions about the liturgical calendar and the correct color of priestly vestments. I know that it's meaning seems fairly obvious, but I'm not sure it's significant enough to risk confusing casual readers, which is the audience we are supposed to be writing for. It's not only "Easter inclusive" it's also "Pentecost inclusive" — it seems it was once widely in use, but only primary sources are available for it and it is not commonly used in English today. Are we going to rename the page "Pentecost inclusive"? — I think we should follow Britannica and the majority of modern sources, which all say "Pentecost is the fiftieth day after Easter." Seraphim System ( talk) 18:38, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
vocabulary changed, and is part of our WP:RS policy. There have been a lot of advances in Biblical scholarship since the 19th century, and as far as Catholicism is concerned, major doctrinal changes. 18th century Catholic sources are only good for historical value—but the entire catechism has been rewritten since then, and they are working from updated translations. We simply have more information then we have in the past (like the Dead Sea Scrolls) — for some reason Biblia Hebraica is still used a lot, but what can you do? The entire NIV translation is based on it, so who am I to argue. If it continues to be a problem, I will repost it to RS/n. Seraphim System ( talk) 23:46, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
1) The unsourced exegesis currently in the article either has to be removed, or sourced (and if a source is added for it, please include a quote for verification). 2) Why should we use KJV when at least two updated translations do not include seven? Only because it includes "seven" and Jpbrenna prefers to use the one English translation that has the word he wants? This seems like more continuation of the extended POV issues on this article. Seraphim System ( talk) 02:58, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion here between 50 days and 50th day... Pentecost as you say stands for fiftieth not 50. 50th day (which is different from 50 days) is equal to 49 days. When you say the first day if the day didn't end you can't claim this = 1 day. The same way you can't claim a baby is one year old until the full year passed. My comment left above still stand true, but I doubt the Church compute to such degree of details as counting mornings to nights... So there really isn't any contradictions because claiming 50th or 49 days... they're synonymous. You guys are fighting when you are saying the same thing in different languages. Yaḥyā ( talk) 06:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi Seraphim, I have found another confusing sentence in the article:
The term Pentecost comes from the Greek Πεντηκοστή (Pentēkostē) meaning "fiftieth". It refers to the festival celebrated on the fiftieth day after Passover, also known as the "Feast of Weeks" in the Septuagint[ii] and the "Feast of 50 days" in rabbinic tradition.[5]
But see what is in the intro:
In Eastern Christianity, Pentecost can also refer to the entire fifty days of Easter through Pentecost inclusive;
If Pentecost can mean those two different things and that if we assume that the Eastern Church is closer to Rabbinistic traditions than Western, than
Feast of 50 days might actually mean the whole festivities including Easter (definition 2), if we take definition 2: it makes 50 days (because they're all inclusive).
Could we assume Feast of Weeks rather refers to definition 1... in which case it would be 7 weeks after Easter... which would be the 50th... it makes 49 days (after Easter).
So here might lie the confusion and the reason behind the conflict in the talkpage. Yaḥyā ( talk) 22:22, 10 July 2017 (UTC)