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I changed canon 28 of disputed validity -Constantinople is the new Rome- from the council of Constantinople (381) to the council of Chalcedon. I don't know much about this, but it is listed on the Wikipedia page for Council of Chalcedon, and the council of 381 only has seven canons.
Dear Fastifex &c., thank you for your enthusiasm. Unfortunately your preferred edit completely messes up and unbalances the first paragraph, and destroys the flow of the definition of the early Christian ecclesiastical pentarchy. Furthermore, this article simply DOESN'T need a long history of the Moscow Patriarchate, expressed in quaint 1911 language. The Moscow patriarchy is only relevant insofar as it impinges on differing definitions of "Pentarchy". And this article is primarily about the ecclesiastical meaning; if you want to give the non-ecclesiastical due importance, then please create another article. AnonMoos 17:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is some of the wording in your preferred version of the article stupid beyond belief ("The grand old Patriarchates"?!?!? -- gag me with a spoon), you have now violated the WP:3RR in your efforts to impose it against the best judgements of people who seem to know more about the subject than you do... AnonMoos 17:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am now operating under the assumption that Arcarius is a sock-puppet for Fastifex. AnonMoos 21:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I am putting them in alphabetacal order to avoid discussion over which is highest ranking Patriarch. Don't change it back unless you have a reason (Rome doesn't rank highest in the eyes of others). 207.6.229.114 01:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
IT ISN'T universally recognized. I'm Coptic Orthodox & we rejected Chalcedon (which is where the tradition "started"). Thus, alphabetical order is just fine for those who view the patriarchates as equal. We don't acknowledge Rome's "power". And there is no proof that it is "universally" recognized -- if it was, then I myself would have recognized these false claims. Just my opinion. So, I will put it back in alphabetacal order unless you have proof that it is universally reecognized -- then I will change it back to your view. ~ Troy 18:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, not everyone agrees ( User:Lanternix reverted it back also). Secondly there is even a cached page showing it in alpha. order (just to make it easier for you to spot) [1]. It is not a "clear consensus" if there are any disagreements at all. It is ridiculous that I have to show you somewhere that has it in alphabetical order. Also, there is no universal tradition if Alexandria (the Coptic Church specifically) split before this "tradition" started. You should know that Alexandria (and antioch) are both one of the five, and that the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs of these cities split before this "order" came about. Lastly, Wikipedia is neutral -- so this order, as said above, doesn't in any way look against that. Your "tradition" (IMHO) doesn't seem to be neutral in this manner. ~ Troy 00:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to other views being given in the article, provided sources other than the editor's opinion, are indicated. But the view expressed in the Encyclopaedia Britannica has every right to be given, attributed expressly to the Encyclopaedia Britannica and not presented as undisputed fact. According to this view, the special prerogatives and authority held by some sees with regard to other sees were a fact that preceded the fourth-century First Council of Nicaea, but the theory (call it a doctrine, if you wish) that five sees formed an exclusive pentarchy was formulated only in the sixth century.
How can it be claimed that "In the 4th century (that is, in the era when Christianity was first beginning to gain political support from the Roman state) these constituted the four most important cities of the Roman Empire, plus Jerusalem"? Constantinople was not yet founded when the First Council of Nicaea was held, and by then Christianity had already gained political support from the Roman state. Lima ( talk) 06:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of politics around the old city of jerusalem nowdays. Israel claims the entire city as its capital and has altered boundaries of the District of jerusalem encompassing the entire old city within its borders. Palestanian authority from the other hand raise claims on Jerusalem concidering that the entire old city must become the capital of the new palestinian state when and if this is created. All discussions between the two parties elegantly avoid this issue stating that after all being solved they will discuss for the status of the old city. Nonetheless and because we are not here to express any political vues (like the one implying a co dominance of Israel and West Bank an idea which is not heard by any of the two parties) I would suggest that the completely neutral generic term " Holy Land" covers elegantly the issue, unless if you want the absolutely non pc fire starter expression " now de facto Israel" which I consider inappropriate as this is a historical non political religious site but even that is by far more accurate from the entry "now Israel and the West Bank" which simply doesn t have any accuracy or any kind of meaning Melathron ( talk) 17:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the point with justinian raise a very interesting issue that is not very clae in the text. After the Chalcedonian shism and the ex communication of the oriental churches by the one catholic apostolic church, the pentarh right passed and remained in the hands of to the greek orthodox patrarchs of the east. This patriarchs along with the Pope of Rome and not the the oriental claimants sat in the next 3 ecumenical councils summoned by the roman emperor. Further points for that is that the patriarchs of the eastern churches in full communion with Rome rank below the cardinals and if they receive cardinal concecration although created straight in the class of cardinal bishops they still rank below the incumbents of the six suburbicarian dioceses of rome. Further the same title is shared by different patriarchs who lead different eastern sects for instance : HB the patriarch of Antioch for the syriacs and the patriarch of Antioch for the maronites etc. The pentarch seats of honour even today are reserved in the vatican for the greek orthodox holders and no one else. So although it is correct to say that there are many claimants for the apostolic sees of both Alxandria and Antioch it is further totally accurate to say that there exist but only one claimant as pentarch and this is the greek orthodox incumbent. I think this should be demonstrated in the text. I will make some neutral changes and please have a say weither you agree or disagree. Melathron ( talk) 10:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
During the funeral of Pope Joannes Paulus II the ecumenical patriarch was offered the first seat of honour among all bishops present ie catholic cardinals , orthodox patriarchs , oriental orthodox patriarchs etc. according to what was confirmed by Justinian and confirmed during Ferrara Florence council. Equally the greek orthodox patriarchs of the east are granted the positions of honour as per the Justinian rules. The coptic pope and the syriac patriarch of Antioch are recognised as heads of their perspective churches but not as sucessors t the ancient pentarchs as Rome is bound by the decisions of the ecumenical councils that holds oriental churches to be heretics ( as per the earlier views tha led to the excommunication of those churches). Roem never consider the eastern orthodoxy as heretics but as schismatics and it was separated by them trhough two mutual anathemas issued at 1054. Nonetheless the positions of the eastern patriarchs was never challenged and now restored after the lift of the anathemas at 1963. However the oriental churches are still seen as monophysites and their canonical heads are recognised as heads of those churches they are nor recognised as sucessors to the ancient pentarchs of which the greek orthodox clergy is concedered as such. Please bear in mind that this is about the relations between the east and west and not about the claimants of the titles. There are numerous claimants but only the greek orthodox are concidered by Rome the rightful incumbents of the Pentarchy. As such I would think it would worth to have some kind of reference to this as it is very interesting how his ancient order still defines the intercommunal relations between the East and West as it demonstrates the strenth of those arrangements up to day. Strictly speaking the ancient patriarchal churches referred here for the vatican are none but the greek orthodox ones as the oriental churches were condemned and ex communicated by both east and west 600 years before the great schism. And do not forget both churches recognises all decisions taken prior to the greta schism as valid. Melathron ( talk) 12:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Classifying Orthodox by Robert L. Stern
Quote :
"The ancient Eastern patriarchates. Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem are “autocephalous” or independent churches, each headed by a patriarch. "
"Oriental churches. At the 451 Council of Chalcedon, three churches separated from communion with the others while retaining it themselves. They and their descendants constitute the Oriental Orthodox churches.
Ancient Armenia was a nation situated on the fringe of the Roman Empire. Its autonomous church was until Chalcedon in communion with the others.
The Coptic (Egyptian) church gradually departed from the usages of ancient Alexandria finally becoming autonomous under its own patriarch. A similar process was repeated in modern times when the Ethiopian church separated the Coptic and, in turn, the Eritrean from the Ethiopian.
The Syriac church similarly separated from the Antiochene and, in turn, part of the Malankara (Indian) from the Syriac."
Unquote
As you can see in this well eastablish papal agency there is a very enlighting article about orthodoxy. As you read the oriental churches are only concidered sister churches of Alexandria and Antioch with the mentioning of the four greek orthodox patriarchates as the original four ancient eastern patriarchates. The oriental ones are not recognised not even as claimants of the tradition and this is because they were excommunicated far before the great schism. Melathron ( talk) 21:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Also Funeral of Pope John Paul II : "Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I attended the funeral from the honorary first seat". Melathron ( talk) 21:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
As such I think we are not very accurate if we do not clearly mention that even the honour and order of the pentarchy are still reserved from the Hole see for the greek orthodox patriarchs who are the solely recognised by vativan to be till today the pentarchs. Equally eastern orthodoxy attribute to Rome the honours of the first of the pentarchs. I think it is important to include such information. Melathron ( talk) 22:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I stll think that it is quite crystal clear that eastern orthodox patriarchs are the one recognised by Rome as the continuation of the pentarchs and it is even more clear that the oriental churches are concidered sister churches of Alexandria and Antioch and thus the two phrases "The Coptic (Egyptian) church gradually departed from the usages of ancient Alexandria " and "The Syriac church similarly separated from the Antiochene". It is very clear here that are not concidered part of the churches of Antioch and Alexandria, so I think we should have an entry to demostrate that. Further although for the sovereigns indeed it was an alphabetical order applied, for the church dignitaries it was not and the ecumenical patrarch held the first seat of honour not because e was on the top of the list but as the second of the pentarchs who in the absence of the soveregn pontiff was given the proper precedence as per the ecumenical councils. Melathron ( talk) 10:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I can see your point. We leave the article as is then. Thanks Melathron ( talk) 19:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The observations about the importance of Jerusalem in the earliest stage of Christianity, while true, are off-topic. At that time there was no theory of an organization of the Church under five sees. The ecclesiastical/ecclesiological part of article is about the Pentarchy theory. This theory gave Jerusalem not first place, but last. Statements such as "According to Eastern ecclesiology, the established order of these sees was as follows: Jerusalem, followed by Rome, followed by Alexandria, followed by Antioch" are false and - something that in Wikipedia is, in a way, even more essential - unsourced. Lima ( talk) 16:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I must remove Ad.minister's "strange changes", and ask Ad.minster to justify them before attempting to put them in again.
These should be enough as examples (not a full list) of the strange statements in the text that Ad.minster prefers, and that need to be justified before being restored. Lima ( talk) 13:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) I, for one, would like Ad.Minster to address Lima's questions/concerns shown above. That will help to work through issues. Majoreditor ( talk) 00:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I prefer not to continue this discussion in which, for instance, Ad.Minster makes no attempt to explain how he can say that the Church in Rome was founded by Paul (or his ghost?) in 67, the year of his death, not during his two-year house arrest (61-63), nor in any of the other years before 67. I thought it was accepted that there was already a Christian Church in Rome in 64, the year of the great fire of Nero.
Nor has Ad.Minster responded to Majoreditor's request that he explain his implicit aspersion about him and me.
So I prefer to propose to the Wikipedia community a complete rewriting of the article, which I will indicate below. If they accept it as a better basis to work on, I will be pleased. If they prefer Ad.Minister's text, that too is completely acceptable to me: I will then rest, having done my best to help with regard to this article.
Since Ad.Minster has removed from the article all examples of pentarchies other than the pentarchy of Christian ecclesiology, I also hold that the article must be moved to Pentarchy (Christianity). I have likewise removed from my draft revision the interwiki links to articles in the Italian and Dutch Wikipedias, which deal with "pentarchy" only in a non-ecclesiological sense. Lima ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I propose as a replacement for the present text of this article the text that is found here. It does not claim to be at all perfect. But it does have the advantage of indicating sources for its statements. Is this a better working text than what is now in the article? Or should it be discarded?
What think you? Lima ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Such as the Patriarch (Latter Day Saints) & Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church (not to be confused with the common Russian Old-Orthodox Church)? Any instances of communication or published extant instances or examples of theories to incorporation or relation to these later groups in with a unified annotation by a singular priesthood had been brought up or mentioned? 71.34.67.135 ( talk) 06:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
In line with WP:BRD, I have reverted Cuchullain's edits, so that various points can be discussed first. Can we advance paragraph by paragraph instead of doing all together?
I wonder if "The importance of these sees dates to the early history of the Church" is correct. By early Christianity is usually meant Christianity before the 421 Council of Nicaea. The importance of Constantinople arose somewhat later. And Jerusalem, though having an importance in honour, had none in jurisdiction over other sees. I also wonder if "broader, ' catholic', dominion over all others" is the best description of Justinian's idea that each was to have dominion only over those in its own area and have nothing to do with those in the other areas. Or am I wrong? Can you please indicate where I can find the full text of that Novella 131. The first two short chapters are easy to find, but in them I see no indication of the idea of even joint dominion of the five sees over others. I suppose the idea must be in later chapters. All I can find are statements like "He ruled the Church with an iron hand. But the force of tradition and his zeal for unity of doctrine throughout the Empire constrained him to secure endorsement for his theological decrees from the ecclesiastical authorities. Special value was attached to papal assent in such matters, and Justinian declared it indispensable. Nevertheless, in 545, in the very Novel in which he proclaimed the pope of Rome to be the "head of all priests" (primum esse omnium sacerdotum), he gave the canons of the Oecumenical Councils of 381 (the First of Constantinople) and 451 (Chalcedon) the force of law, and thus (by virtue of the third canon of Constantinople and the twenty-eighth of Chalcedon) invested the patriarchal throne of Constantinople with authority which, as we have seen, could scarcely be distinguished from that of Rome (Novel 131.l-2)." If we cannot see what exactly Justinian decreed, should we not stick to what the Encyclopaedia Britannica says? I certainly don't think that "it received official recognition at the Quinisext Council" is an improvement on Encyclopaedia Britannica's mention of "ecclesiastical sanction": what could be more "official" than Justinian's own law?
I fully recognize the value of much that has been added. Esoglou ( talk) 23:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I was hoping that Cúchulainn would revise the first section and that he or someone else would attend to the changes make by the editor who seems more accustomed to editing in Spanish than in English, but I find I must do it myself - subject to corrections and improvements by others. I have kept as much as I could of the latter editor's text, but could not preserve what is falsely attributed to the sources, such as that the 60 bishops who participated in the synod that Pope Cornelius convened in Italy were African and eastern, that Ignatius of Antioch reported that Rome "presides over the Church" (I have put what he really wrote), etc. Esoglou ( talk) 17:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Guilherme's edit seems due to a misunderstanding of the sources he cited (or perhaps rather of the references to those sources in the sources, perhaps in Portuguese, that he is directly using), as shown especially by the phrase "love chair". This term, I take it, corresponds in a distorted way to "presides over love" in the English translation of Ignatius's Letter to the Romans that you will find here. The source that Guilherme gives] says nothing explicitly about that phrase, and so is invalid as a citation.
If Guilherme would kindly make his proposals here, even in Portuguese, I, com muito prazer, and no doubt others too, will willingly help him clarify what he wishes to put in the article.
If Guilherme will read what Ignatius wrote, he will see that "the Church" that presides, the Church Ignatius is addressing, is the Church of Rome, not the Church in general.
I apologize to Guilherme for having wrongly presumed that "citar", when it was used in an anonymous edit, was Spanish, instead of Portuguese. Esoglou ( talk) 18:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
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The Patriarchate of Jerusalem is of a more contentious status due to historical reasons in equivalence with that of Alexandra. The Constantinople claims are not disputed comparingly. Consequently, Jerusalem should be dealt with in the same fashion as Alexandra: as minimally as possible, meaning if there is an opportunity for Wikipedia not to pick a position by means of pipelinking, then that opportunity should be taken. And that choice revolves around, in equivalence with Alexandra, to Patriarch of Jerusalem and to the Church of Jerusalem. Am I mistaken? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 19:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Should the word Pentarchy be capitalized or not? It appears both ways in this article. Editor2020 ( talk) 00:27, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
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I changed canon 28 of disputed validity -Constantinople is the new Rome- from the council of Constantinople (381) to the council of Chalcedon. I don't know much about this, but it is listed on the Wikipedia page for Council of Chalcedon, and the council of 381 only has seven canons.
Dear Fastifex &c., thank you for your enthusiasm. Unfortunately your preferred edit completely messes up and unbalances the first paragraph, and destroys the flow of the definition of the early Christian ecclesiastical pentarchy. Furthermore, this article simply DOESN'T need a long history of the Moscow Patriarchate, expressed in quaint 1911 language. The Moscow patriarchy is only relevant insofar as it impinges on differing definitions of "Pentarchy". And this article is primarily about the ecclesiastical meaning; if you want to give the non-ecclesiastical due importance, then please create another article. AnonMoos 17:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is some of the wording in your preferred version of the article stupid beyond belief ("The grand old Patriarchates"?!?!? -- gag me with a spoon), you have now violated the WP:3RR in your efforts to impose it against the best judgements of people who seem to know more about the subject than you do... AnonMoos 17:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am now operating under the assumption that Arcarius is a sock-puppet for Fastifex. AnonMoos 21:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I am putting them in alphabetacal order to avoid discussion over which is highest ranking Patriarch. Don't change it back unless you have a reason (Rome doesn't rank highest in the eyes of others). 207.6.229.114 01:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
IT ISN'T universally recognized. I'm Coptic Orthodox & we rejected Chalcedon (which is where the tradition "started"). Thus, alphabetical order is just fine for those who view the patriarchates as equal. We don't acknowledge Rome's "power". And there is no proof that it is "universally" recognized -- if it was, then I myself would have recognized these false claims. Just my opinion. So, I will put it back in alphabetacal order unless you have proof that it is universally reecognized -- then I will change it back to your view. ~ Troy 18:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, not everyone agrees ( User:Lanternix reverted it back also). Secondly there is even a cached page showing it in alpha. order (just to make it easier for you to spot) [1]. It is not a "clear consensus" if there are any disagreements at all. It is ridiculous that I have to show you somewhere that has it in alphabetical order. Also, there is no universal tradition if Alexandria (the Coptic Church specifically) split before this "tradition" started. You should know that Alexandria (and antioch) are both one of the five, and that the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs of these cities split before this "order" came about. Lastly, Wikipedia is neutral -- so this order, as said above, doesn't in any way look against that. Your "tradition" (IMHO) doesn't seem to be neutral in this manner. ~ Troy 00:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to other views being given in the article, provided sources other than the editor's opinion, are indicated. But the view expressed in the Encyclopaedia Britannica has every right to be given, attributed expressly to the Encyclopaedia Britannica and not presented as undisputed fact. According to this view, the special prerogatives and authority held by some sees with regard to other sees were a fact that preceded the fourth-century First Council of Nicaea, but the theory (call it a doctrine, if you wish) that five sees formed an exclusive pentarchy was formulated only in the sixth century.
How can it be claimed that "In the 4th century (that is, in the era when Christianity was first beginning to gain political support from the Roman state) these constituted the four most important cities of the Roman Empire, plus Jerusalem"? Constantinople was not yet founded when the First Council of Nicaea was held, and by then Christianity had already gained political support from the Roman state. Lima ( talk) 06:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
There is quite a lot of politics around the old city of jerusalem nowdays. Israel claims the entire city as its capital and has altered boundaries of the District of jerusalem encompassing the entire old city within its borders. Palestanian authority from the other hand raise claims on Jerusalem concidering that the entire old city must become the capital of the new palestinian state when and if this is created. All discussions between the two parties elegantly avoid this issue stating that after all being solved they will discuss for the status of the old city. Nonetheless and because we are not here to express any political vues (like the one implying a co dominance of Israel and West Bank an idea which is not heard by any of the two parties) I would suggest that the completely neutral generic term " Holy Land" covers elegantly the issue, unless if you want the absolutely non pc fire starter expression " now de facto Israel" which I consider inappropriate as this is a historical non political religious site but even that is by far more accurate from the entry "now Israel and the West Bank" which simply doesn t have any accuracy or any kind of meaning Melathron ( talk) 17:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the point with justinian raise a very interesting issue that is not very clae in the text. After the Chalcedonian shism and the ex communication of the oriental churches by the one catholic apostolic church, the pentarh right passed and remained in the hands of to the greek orthodox patrarchs of the east. This patriarchs along with the Pope of Rome and not the the oriental claimants sat in the next 3 ecumenical councils summoned by the roman emperor. Further points for that is that the patriarchs of the eastern churches in full communion with Rome rank below the cardinals and if they receive cardinal concecration although created straight in the class of cardinal bishops they still rank below the incumbents of the six suburbicarian dioceses of rome. Further the same title is shared by different patriarchs who lead different eastern sects for instance : HB the patriarch of Antioch for the syriacs and the patriarch of Antioch for the maronites etc. The pentarch seats of honour even today are reserved in the vatican for the greek orthodox holders and no one else. So although it is correct to say that there are many claimants for the apostolic sees of both Alxandria and Antioch it is further totally accurate to say that there exist but only one claimant as pentarch and this is the greek orthodox incumbent. I think this should be demonstrated in the text. I will make some neutral changes and please have a say weither you agree or disagree. Melathron ( talk) 10:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
During the funeral of Pope Joannes Paulus II the ecumenical patriarch was offered the first seat of honour among all bishops present ie catholic cardinals , orthodox patriarchs , oriental orthodox patriarchs etc. according to what was confirmed by Justinian and confirmed during Ferrara Florence council. Equally the greek orthodox patriarchs of the east are granted the positions of honour as per the Justinian rules. The coptic pope and the syriac patriarch of Antioch are recognised as heads of their perspective churches but not as sucessors t the ancient pentarchs as Rome is bound by the decisions of the ecumenical councils that holds oriental churches to be heretics ( as per the earlier views tha led to the excommunication of those churches). Roem never consider the eastern orthodoxy as heretics but as schismatics and it was separated by them trhough two mutual anathemas issued at 1054. Nonetheless the positions of the eastern patriarchs was never challenged and now restored after the lift of the anathemas at 1963. However the oriental churches are still seen as monophysites and their canonical heads are recognised as heads of those churches they are nor recognised as sucessors to the ancient pentarchs of which the greek orthodox clergy is concedered as such. Please bear in mind that this is about the relations between the east and west and not about the claimants of the titles. There are numerous claimants but only the greek orthodox are concidered by Rome the rightful incumbents of the Pentarchy. As such I would think it would worth to have some kind of reference to this as it is very interesting how his ancient order still defines the intercommunal relations between the East and West as it demonstrates the strenth of those arrangements up to day. Strictly speaking the ancient patriarchal churches referred here for the vatican are none but the greek orthodox ones as the oriental churches were condemned and ex communicated by both east and west 600 years before the great schism. And do not forget both churches recognises all decisions taken prior to the greta schism as valid. Melathron ( talk) 12:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Classifying Orthodox by Robert L. Stern
Quote :
"The ancient Eastern patriarchates. Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem are “autocephalous” or independent churches, each headed by a patriarch. "
"Oriental churches. At the 451 Council of Chalcedon, three churches separated from communion with the others while retaining it themselves. They and their descendants constitute the Oriental Orthodox churches.
Ancient Armenia was a nation situated on the fringe of the Roman Empire. Its autonomous church was until Chalcedon in communion with the others.
The Coptic (Egyptian) church gradually departed from the usages of ancient Alexandria finally becoming autonomous under its own patriarch. A similar process was repeated in modern times when the Ethiopian church separated the Coptic and, in turn, the Eritrean from the Ethiopian.
The Syriac church similarly separated from the Antiochene and, in turn, part of the Malankara (Indian) from the Syriac."
Unquote
As you can see in this well eastablish papal agency there is a very enlighting article about orthodoxy. As you read the oriental churches are only concidered sister churches of Alexandria and Antioch with the mentioning of the four greek orthodox patriarchates as the original four ancient eastern patriarchates. The oriental ones are not recognised not even as claimants of the tradition and this is because they were excommunicated far before the great schism. Melathron ( talk) 21:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Also Funeral of Pope John Paul II : "Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I attended the funeral from the honorary first seat". Melathron ( talk) 21:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
As such I think we are not very accurate if we do not clearly mention that even the honour and order of the pentarchy are still reserved from the Hole see for the greek orthodox patriarchs who are the solely recognised by vativan to be till today the pentarchs. Equally eastern orthodoxy attribute to Rome the honours of the first of the pentarchs. I think it is important to include such information. Melathron ( talk) 22:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I stll think that it is quite crystal clear that eastern orthodox patriarchs are the one recognised by Rome as the continuation of the pentarchs and it is even more clear that the oriental churches are concidered sister churches of Alexandria and Antioch and thus the two phrases "The Coptic (Egyptian) church gradually departed from the usages of ancient Alexandria " and "The Syriac church similarly separated from the Antiochene". It is very clear here that are not concidered part of the churches of Antioch and Alexandria, so I think we should have an entry to demostrate that. Further although for the sovereigns indeed it was an alphabetical order applied, for the church dignitaries it was not and the ecumenical patrarch held the first seat of honour not because e was on the top of the list but as the second of the pentarchs who in the absence of the soveregn pontiff was given the proper precedence as per the ecumenical councils. Melathron ( talk) 10:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I can see your point. We leave the article as is then. Thanks Melathron ( talk) 19:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The observations about the importance of Jerusalem in the earliest stage of Christianity, while true, are off-topic. At that time there was no theory of an organization of the Church under five sees. The ecclesiastical/ecclesiological part of article is about the Pentarchy theory. This theory gave Jerusalem not first place, but last. Statements such as "According to Eastern ecclesiology, the established order of these sees was as follows: Jerusalem, followed by Rome, followed by Alexandria, followed by Antioch" are false and - something that in Wikipedia is, in a way, even more essential - unsourced. Lima ( talk) 16:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I must remove Ad.minister's "strange changes", and ask Ad.minster to justify them before attempting to put them in again.
These should be enough as examples (not a full list) of the strange statements in the text that Ad.minster prefers, and that need to be justified before being restored. Lima ( talk) 13:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
(<-) I, for one, would like Ad.Minster to address Lima's questions/concerns shown above. That will help to work through issues. Majoreditor ( talk) 00:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I prefer not to continue this discussion in which, for instance, Ad.Minster makes no attempt to explain how he can say that the Church in Rome was founded by Paul (or his ghost?) in 67, the year of his death, not during his two-year house arrest (61-63), nor in any of the other years before 67. I thought it was accepted that there was already a Christian Church in Rome in 64, the year of the great fire of Nero.
Nor has Ad.Minster responded to Majoreditor's request that he explain his implicit aspersion about him and me.
So I prefer to propose to the Wikipedia community a complete rewriting of the article, which I will indicate below. If they accept it as a better basis to work on, I will be pleased. If they prefer Ad.Minister's text, that too is completely acceptable to me: I will then rest, having done my best to help with regard to this article.
Since Ad.Minster has removed from the article all examples of pentarchies other than the pentarchy of Christian ecclesiology, I also hold that the article must be moved to Pentarchy (Christianity). I have likewise removed from my draft revision the interwiki links to articles in the Italian and Dutch Wikipedias, which deal with "pentarchy" only in a non-ecclesiological sense. Lima ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I propose as a replacement for the present text of this article the text that is found here. It does not claim to be at all perfect. But it does have the advantage of indicating sources for its statements. Is this a better working text than what is now in the article? Or should it be discarded?
What think you? Lima ( talk) 16:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Such as the Patriarch (Latter Day Saints) & Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church (not to be confused with the common Russian Old-Orthodox Church)? Any instances of communication or published extant instances or examples of theories to incorporation or relation to these later groups in with a unified annotation by a singular priesthood had been brought up or mentioned? 71.34.67.135 ( talk) 06:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
In line with WP:BRD, I have reverted Cuchullain's edits, so that various points can be discussed first. Can we advance paragraph by paragraph instead of doing all together?
I wonder if "The importance of these sees dates to the early history of the Church" is correct. By early Christianity is usually meant Christianity before the 421 Council of Nicaea. The importance of Constantinople arose somewhat later. And Jerusalem, though having an importance in honour, had none in jurisdiction over other sees. I also wonder if "broader, ' catholic', dominion over all others" is the best description of Justinian's idea that each was to have dominion only over those in its own area and have nothing to do with those in the other areas. Or am I wrong? Can you please indicate where I can find the full text of that Novella 131. The first two short chapters are easy to find, but in them I see no indication of the idea of even joint dominion of the five sees over others. I suppose the idea must be in later chapters. All I can find are statements like "He ruled the Church with an iron hand. But the force of tradition and his zeal for unity of doctrine throughout the Empire constrained him to secure endorsement for his theological decrees from the ecclesiastical authorities. Special value was attached to papal assent in such matters, and Justinian declared it indispensable. Nevertheless, in 545, in the very Novel in which he proclaimed the pope of Rome to be the "head of all priests" (primum esse omnium sacerdotum), he gave the canons of the Oecumenical Councils of 381 (the First of Constantinople) and 451 (Chalcedon) the force of law, and thus (by virtue of the third canon of Constantinople and the twenty-eighth of Chalcedon) invested the patriarchal throne of Constantinople with authority which, as we have seen, could scarcely be distinguished from that of Rome (Novel 131.l-2)." If we cannot see what exactly Justinian decreed, should we not stick to what the Encyclopaedia Britannica says? I certainly don't think that "it received official recognition at the Quinisext Council" is an improvement on Encyclopaedia Britannica's mention of "ecclesiastical sanction": what could be more "official" than Justinian's own law?
I fully recognize the value of much that has been added. Esoglou ( talk) 23:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I was hoping that Cúchulainn would revise the first section and that he or someone else would attend to the changes make by the editor who seems more accustomed to editing in Spanish than in English, but I find I must do it myself - subject to corrections and improvements by others. I have kept as much as I could of the latter editor's text, but could not preserve what is falsely attributed to the sources, such as that the 60 bishops who participated in the synod that Pope Cornelius convened in Italy were African and eastern, that Ignatius of Antioch reported that Rome "presides over the Church" (I have put what he really wrote), etc. Esoglou ( talk) 17:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Guilherme's edit seems due to a misunderstanding of the sources he cited (or perhaps rather of the references to those sources in the sources, perhaps in Portuguese, that he is directly using), as shown especially by the phrase "love chair". This term, I take it, corresponds in a distorted way to "presides over love" in the English translation of Ignatius's Letter to the Romans that you will find here. The source that Guilherme gives] says nothing explicitly about that phrase, and so is invalid as a citation.
If Guilherme would kindly make his proposals here, even in Portuguese, I, com muito prazer, and no doubt others too, will willingly help him clarify what he wishes to put in the article.
If Guilherme will read what Ignatius wrote, he will see that "the Church" that presides, the Church Ignatius is addressing, is the Church of Rome, not the Church in general.
I apologize to Guilherme for having wrongly presumed that "citar", when it was used in an anonymous edit, was Spanish, instead of Portuguese. Esoglou ( talk) 18:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
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The Patriarchate of Jerusalem is of a more contentious status due to historical reasons in equivalence with that of Alexandra. The Constantinople claims are not disputed comparingly. Consequently, Jerusalem should be dealt with in the same fashion as Alexandra: as minimally as possible, meaning if there is an opportunity for Wikipedia not to pick a position by means of pipelinking, then that opportunity should be taken. And that choice revolves around, in equivalence with Alexandra, to Patriarch of Jerusalem and to the Church of Jerusalem. Am I mistaken? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 19:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Should the word Pentarchy be capitalized or not? It appears both ways in this article. Editor2020 ( talk) 00:27, 4 December 2021 (UTC)