This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Penalty (Mormonism) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
An anonymous editor is deleting the sentence which states there is no record of anyone in the LDS Church killing anyone else or committing suicide as a result of the blood oaths in the Endowment. The anonymous editor has referenced the "Lafferty brothers" in the edit summary to justify this deletion. As far as I can find out, this is a reference to some members of a Mormon fundamentalist group who committed some killings, and these are discussed in Under the Banner of Heaven, J. Krakauer's book. However, these brothers were Mormon fundamentalists, not members of the LDS Church, when the killings were committed. For this reason, the killings—even if they were committed b/c the victims violated their Endowment oaths, which I doubt—are not really relevant at all to the statement that is being deleted. Snocrates 09:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I just found this page and reading the article I got a question: Where is there a verifiable source that these oaths were called "Blood Oaths" by the participants? If they were not called by that name it is an NPOV violation for wikipedia to do so. -- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(I think the Tanners are self published and so, like a blog, they violate WP:RS).-- Blue Tie ( talk) 12:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(1) If you're looking for an "official" term, I frankly don't think one existed, because these were simply part of the larger Endowment ceremony and were scattered throughout. They did not constitute a cohesive ceremony in their own right that were performed all together. The ceremony referred to them simply as "penalties", I believe.
(2) You won't find information on this in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. As a quasi-official source, it didn't address a number of "controversial" topics, this being one of them.
(3) I'll get back to you on this. I'll have to find my book.
(4) The edition of the Tanners I have is published by Moody, an evangelical Christian publisher. ULHM probably also published an edition, as evidenced by the editor who included that edition here. The neutrality of the authors may be questioned; most of the info in it I have found to be accurate as cross-evaluated with other sources.
Snocrates 12:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that this information is covered elsewhere, and a little research will bear that out. The information in this article is not covered in Mormonism and violence. It is mentioned in two sentences in Endowment (Latter Day Saints) — nothing like the detailed treatment here. It's mentioned in passing (and again not in detail), in Oath of vengeance. Articles exist because the information is not covered adequately elsewhere; this seems to be no exception. There's also likely room for expansion to the topic regarding how the oaths have been treated in a Mormon fundamentalist context; see the confusion over the Lafferty brothers edits in the section above on this talk page. Whether it was a "major tenant [sic]" of the religion is subjective — it was in the Endowment for well over 100 years and the oaths were made by thousands (millions?) of Mormons on their own behalf and on behalf of millions of proxy Endowments for the dead. To me, that's fairly significant, even if it's not talked about outside the temple. Snocrates 14:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
There are quotes for the only part of this article that is not covered in other articles. I will mark them, but if they can not be referenced by a reputable source let's at least take off the quote marks. -- Storm Rider (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This material is actually part of Masonic tradition... not Mormon. *rolls eyes* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.145.64 ( talk) 01:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This material is a minor part of topics already covered. It should be merged and deleted. Bytebear ( talk) 04:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Penalty (Mormonism) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
An anonymous editor is deleting the sentence which states there is no record of anyone in the LDS Church killing anyone else or committing suicide as a result of the blood oaths in the Endowment. The anonymous editor has referenced the "Lafferty brothers" in the edit summary to justify this deletion. As far as I can find out, this is a reference to some members of a Mormon fundamentalist group who committed some killings, and these are discussed in Under the Banner of Heaven, J. Krakauer's book. However, these brothers were Mormon fundamentalists, not members of the LDS Church, when the killings were committed. For this reason, the killings—even if they were committed b/c the victims violated their Endowment oaths, which I doubt—are not really relevant at all to the statement that is being deleted. Snocrates 09:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I just found this page and reading the article I got a question: Where is there a verifiable source that these oaths were called "Blood Oaths" by the participants? If they were not called by that name it is an NPOV violation for wikipedia to do so. -- Blue Tie ( talk) 11:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(I think the Tanners are self published and so, like a blog, they violate WP:RS).-- Blue Tie ( talk) 12:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(1) If you're looking for an "official" term, I frankly don't think one existed, because these were simply part of the larger Endowment ceremony and were scattered throughout. They did not constitute a cohesive ceremony in their own right that were performed all together. The ceremony referred to them simply as "penalties", I believe.
(2) You won't find information on this in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. As a quasi-official source, it didn't address a number of "controversial" topics, this being one of them.
(3) I'll get back to you on this. I'll have to find my book.
(4) The edition of the Tanners I have is published by Moody, an evangelical Christian publisher. ULHM probably also published an edition, as evidenced by the editor who included that edition here. The neutrality of the authors may be questioned; most of the info in it I have found to be accurate as cross-evaluated with other sources.
Snocrates 12:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that this information is covered elsewhere, and a little research will bear that out. The information in this article is not covered in Mormonism and violence. It is mentioned in two sentences in Endowment (Latter Day Saints) — nothing like the detailed treatment here. It's mentioned in passing (and again not in detail), in Oath of vengeance. Articles exist because the information is not covered adequately elsewhere; this seems to be no exception. There's also likely room for expansion to the topic regarding how the oaths have been treated in a Mormon fundamentalist context; see the confusion over the Lafferty brothers edits in the section above on this talk page. Whether it was a "major tenant [sic]" of the religion is subjective — it was in the Endowment for well over 100 years and the oaths were made by thousands (millions?) of Mormons on their own behalf and on behalf of millions of proxy Endowments for the dead. To me, that's fairly significant, even if it's not talked about outside the temple. Snocrates 14:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
There are quotes for the only part of this article that is not covered in other articles. I will mark them, but if they can not be referenced by a reputable source let's at least take off the quote marks. -- Storm Rider (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This material is actually part of Masonic tradition... not Mormon. *rolls eyes* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.145.64 ( talk) 01:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This material is a minor part of topics already covered. It should be merged and deleted. Bytebear ( talk) 04:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)