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Relative to today's revert war, The Royalty Digest is considered neither obscure nor biased per se, rather it is a generally reputable source. That said, the article used as a citation here clearly takes the side of the Petropolis branch in the dynastic rivalry, which is no doubt why that branch's website has linked to it. Still, the article can include it and remain balanced, by noting the precise words & circumstances of Dom Pedro de Alcantara's renunciation, and of his son's claim: although my recollection is that Dom Pedro Gastao did not claim the throne immediately upon his father's death, but did so only after the legal dispute with the Vassouras branch over the family's vast Petropolis properties in the mid-40s, exacerbated by the rivalry during the referendum on the monarchy in 1992. I'm editing both views in, so that it is clear that even if Dom Pedro did not consider his renunciation legally binding (after all, it was signed post-monarchy), he appears to have considered it morally so, since he did not claim the throne when his mother died, nor openly dispute his nephew's claim, nor assert a claim on behalf of his son. More sources will continue to shed light on the matter and should be added if reputable, but as of now, I see no further grounds for the sides to excise each other's content: the active competition began after Dom Pedro de Alcantara's death and thus doesn't belong in this article. FactStraight ( talk) 04:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says currently:
After the death of the Princess Imperial in 1921, the Monarchist Directory declared that her successor as claimant to the throne should be her eldest son, Dom Pedro de Alcântara, but instead the son of his deceased brother Dom Luiz, Prince Pedro Henrique of Orléans-Braganza assumed that position and was recognized as such by many of Europe's dynasties.
This seems odd and possibly dubious. Prince Pedro Henrique was 11 years old at the time of his grandmother's death. I can't imagine he put forward any kind of claim on his own behalf - he would have likely needed some kind of regent, at the very least (his mother?). There surely must also be evidence as to whether Pedro de Alcântara recognized his nephew as head of the house at that time. I would assume that he did, since he did not put forward his own claim at any point in his life, as I understand it - the claim was advanced by his son at some point after his death in 1940, right? john k ( talk) 14:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"My Lady,
"We had the honor of receiving the letter sent by Your Imperial Majesty, dated november 9, in which it came along the renunciation made by your eldest son, sir D. Pedro, before getting married.
"Obeying your order with the freedom in which you allowed us to, we only published what was essential about the renounce. We did not mention the marriage, as it does not matter, so to hinder others from connecting both facts;
[...]"In the study in which we referred and whatever else that it is related to our moral unity, the discipline and effectiveness of a very combined work, we shall give with much pleasure our experience and action to the active talents of sir D.Luiz, who will act under your autority, and as you´ve told us, did not give up from his rights.
"With reverence we kiss the hand of Your Imperial Majesty as loyal subjects
a) Lafayette Rodrigues Pereira
a) João Alfredo Corrêa de Oliveira
a) Viscount of Ouro Preto
Rio de Janeiro,
December 14, 1908"
Lafayette, João Alfredo and Ouro Preto were the monarchist leaders in Brazil and were also ex-Prime Ministers. - -- Lecen ( talk) 15:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"O duque de Chartres provocava sempre seu primo, o conde d’Eu, e Philippe, duque de Orléans, seu sobrinho, não gostava dele. Todos os primos diziam que ele era crítico e chicanista, que reivindicava sem cessar seus direitos de príncipe francês; indubitavelmente ele não tinha razão porque, fundando um ramo estrangeiro, não podia mais pretender tais direitois
The Duke of Chartres always provoked his cousin, the comte d´Eu, and Philippe, the duke of Orléans, his nephew, did not like him. All his cousins used to tell that he was a critic and "chicanista" (I have no idea what it means), who claimed restless his rights as a French Prince; doubtlessly he had no right because, as he stablished a foreign branch, he could not pretend such rights".
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Relative to today's revert war, The Royalty Digest is considered neither obscure nor biased per se, rather it is a generally reputable source. That said, the article used as a citation here clearly takes the side of the Petropolis branch in the dynastic rivalry, which is no doubt why that branch's website has linked to it. Still, the article can include it and remain balanced, by noting the precise words & circumstances of Dom Pedro de Alcantara's renunciation, and of his son's claim: although my recollection is that Dom Pedro Gastao did not claim the throne immediately upon his father's death, but did so only after the legal dispute with the Vassouras branch over the family's vast Petropolis properties in the mid-40s, exacerbated by the rivalry during the referendum on the monarchy in 1992. I'm editing both views in, so that it is clear that even if Dom Pedro did not consider his renunciation legally binding (after all, it was signed post-monarchy), he appears to have considered it morally so, since he did not claim the throne when his mother died, nor openly dispute his nephew's claim, nor assert a claim on behalf of his son. More sources will continue to shed light on the matter and should be added if reputable, but as of now, I see no further grounds for the sides to excise each other's content: the active competition began after Dom Pedro de Alcantara's death and thus doesn't belong in this article. FactStraight ( talk) 04:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says currently:
After the death of the Princess Imperial in 1921, the Monarchist Directory declared that her successor as claimant to the throne should be her eldest son, Dom Pedro de Alcântara, but instead the son of his deceased brother Dom Luiz, Prince Pedro Henrique of Orléans-Braganza assumed that position and was recognized as such by many of Europe's dynasties.
This seems odd and possibly dubious. Prince Pedro Henrique was 11 years old at the time of his grandmother's death. I can't imagine he put forward any kind of claim on his own behalf - he would have likely needed some kind of regent, at the very least (his mother?). There surely must also be evidence as to whether Pedro de Alcântara recognized his nephew as head of the house at that time. I would assume that he did, since he did not put forward his own claim at any point in his life, as I understand it - the claim was advanced by his son at some point after his death in 1940, right? john k ( talk) 14:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"My Lady,
"We had the honor of receiving the letter sent by Your Imperial Majesty, dated november 9, in which it came along the renunciation made by your eldest son, sir D. Pedro, before getting married.
"Obeying your order with the freedom in which you allowed us to, we only published what was essential about the renounce. We did not mention the marriage, as it does not matter, so to hinder others from connecting both facts;
[...]"In the study in which we referred and whatever else that it is related to our moral unity, the discipline and effectiveness of a very combined work, we shall give with much pleasure our experience and action to the active talents of sir D.Luiz, who will act under your autority, and as you´ve told us, did not give up from his rights.
"With reverence we kiss the hand of Your Imperial Majesty as loyal subjects
a) Lafayette Rodrigues Pereira
a) João Alfredo Corrêa de Oliveira
a) Viscount of Ouro Preto
Rio de Janeiro,
December 14, 1908"
Lafayette, João Alfredo and Ouro Preto were the monarchist leaders in Brazil and were also ex-Prime Ministers. - -- Lecen ( talk) 15:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
"O duque de Chartres provocava sempre seu primo, o conde d’Eu, e Philippe, duque de Orléans, seu sobrinho, não gostava dele. Todos os primos diziam que ele era crítico e chicanista, que reivindicava sem cessar seus direitos de príncipe francês; indubitavelmente ele não tinha razão porque, fundando um ramo estrangeiro, não podia mais pretender tais direitois
The Duke of Chartres always provoked his cousin, the comte d´Eu, and Philippe, the duke of Orléans, his nephew, did not like him. All his cousins used to tell that he was a critic and "chicanista" (I have no idea what it means), who claimed restless his rights as a French Prince; doubtlessly he had no right because, as he stablished a foreign branch, he could not pretend such rights".