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![]() | See #Resolving this dispute |
There are some obvious phrasing errors here which are anti-U.S, anti-Carmona and pro-Chavez. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.224.118 ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 25 August 2005 UTC
I don't detect any anti-US or pro-Chavez POV in the current article, maybe someone changed it. I really see some of the opposite. The dissolving of the Venezuelan General Assembly was obviously unconstitutional. You think the Venezuelan Constitution has a provision for someone to walk in and seize power, fire everybody, and dissolve the congress? That's absurd. Also, the statement that the U.S. was slow to condemn the coup sort of understates the fact that the U.S. never did condemn the coup. I reviewed and searched for news articles that said so, found nothing. I surely don't remember any condemnation. I'm going to fix the article. If someone can cite a reference for any U.S. condemnation of the coup, I welcome the correction to my edit. DanielM 20:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
@DeadSalmon, well the article in its current form doesn't say anything about the constitutionality of Carmona's actions so I don't think this is an issue. I think the tone of the sentence mentioning allegations that the U.S. supported the coup is okay and is factual, not condemnatory. I don't think an "interpretation of Carmona's actions by both sides" needs to be included in this article, but if it were it should probably have its own section. DanielM 09:17, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Another issue here is whether a Coup d'état occured in Venezuela in 2002. Please refer to page 36 of the article in the following link: http://www.law.duke.edu/news/pdf/lawmagfall02.pdf and make your own conclusions. I strongly believe that no coup d'état occured then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.248.230.172 ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 28 August 2006 UTC
As President, Carmona was the Commander of the Armed Force and therefore responsible for military actions during his regime. I Propose to restore this paragraph:
During the short-lived government of Pedro Carmona, military officers held President Chavez for 36 hours against his will and attempted to force his exile. Additionally, security forces conducted raids without warrants and took some Chavez supporters into custody illegally, including National Assembly deputy Tarek William Saab, a member of the Chavez-aligned MVR. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by JRSP ( talk • contribs) 20:18, 2 August 2006 UTC
Please establish some relevance of this statement to Carmona. The military officers are the ones who accepted Chavez's resignation *before* Carmona was sworn-in. What does the military holding Chavez have to do with Carmona?
Sandy 02:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Carmona was never a president, because chavez never resigned his office. I think this article should be revised and corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
Absolutely right, well spotted, I have fixed it, SqueakBox 00:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Really, that is not POV, in the usual sense anyhow, it is a question of the meaning of President and who should be included in the line of Presidents for an historical record. Carmona was installed for two or three days and made some decrees and tried to fire the Congress and so on, but all of that never much had any effect as far as I know because of the short time until Chavez returned to power and then it was null and void in totality. It seems odd to me to include Carmona in the line of Presidents and I think Chavez' tenure should be shown in an unbroken way since the time he was elected, really I think he was still President for those two or three days they confined him. However I would like to hear from a Venzuelan editor on this, have we got any? Leave it to the Venezuelans to tell us if Carmona was really President or not. DanielM 10:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Over 60% of venezuela voted for chavez, i think that is a clear stamp for chavez to uphold his presidency. IF you dont know what happend during those few days when chavez was captured and the us landed a helicopter to kidnap him out of venezuela, i suggest you watch the following movie, and see the truth with your own eyes. Chavez never resigned. I think what happend those days was a disgrace to democracy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
I dont think this is a question of democracy but whether he was President, and certainly IMO he never was and for wikipedia to claim he was grossly violates NPOV as it is politicking, claiming something that never was, SqueakBox 17:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Carmona disbanded the entire democraticly functioning institutions directly after he was "inaugurated". I find that a disgrace to democracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
Anon, please sign your talk page entries with four tildes ( ~~~~ ), and please use edit summaries on your article edits. Sandy 00:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that in the long run Carmona's presidency will be seen like a distant blip only relevant because of the the way it came into being and how it ended. For all practical purposes he was not president because there were no real consequences to his actions as president. However, for a few days (less than 48 hours) most Venezuelans (and also most outside Venezuela) believed that he had in fact become the new head of state. If perception is reality, then he was president. Of course all this was reversed when Chavez was brought back less than 2 days since he ___________ (fill whatever you like: 'resigned' or 'was illegally deposed'). The only reason we discuss this was because of the short time Carmona lasted as president. Had Chavez been away for, say, 5 weeks before being brought back, and had during that time Carmona remained in charge we wouldn't be discussing if he was or if he wasn't. But problem is that 1, 2, or 3 days looks like an extremely short and silly time for one to be listed as president. Anagnorisis 00:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This issue has not been resolved, hence the new pov tag. This is one of the most pov articles I have seen in over 2 years working here, presumably manipulated by anti-Chavez supporters. This shows a grave disrespect to the Venezuealn authorities and the country as a whole. I have tried to balance it a bi, all the refs were anti chavez, for example, SqueakBox 00:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
If I walk to a bank with a gun, take the bank manager a hostage and force him to sign a resignation letter, and then declare myself to be the bank manager, should the history books say I truly was the bank manager, or that I was just a crook? -- 80.222.32.123 15:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Wiki reports according to reliable sources. The idea that Carmona wasn't President of Venezuela — regardless of circumstances — is original research and POV. Multiple reliable sources report that Carmona was interim president. Please do not delete referenced content; inserting original research and POV is against Wiki polices of WP:V and WP:NPOV, and can be considered vandalism. Sandy 21:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
the original research is to claim he was President, your claims are ridiculous, SqueakBox 21:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Not when there is a genuine editorial dispute it isnt vandalism, as I am sure you know well. Making false vandalsim claims or threatening to is not the sign of a serious editor so if you want to negotiate seriously please dont talk rubbish or muddle a seriousd POV dispute with vandalism (policy is very clear on this and you are POV pushing by trying to distort policy), SqueakBox 00:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
What is clear is that some people will see Carmona as having been President and others definitely see him as having not been President (depending on whether one is sympathetic to Chavez or not). POV demands we give both sides of the story, and it equally demands that we dont present one side of the story (the anti Chavez side) as the only truth, that is POV pushing of thw worst kind, SqueakBox 00:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyway where are your references re Carmona as President. Do we have any from the Venezuelan Government? If not we should do or it could be argued as a term used by the critics and enemies of Venezuela and not the country itself. See
this for instance,
SqueakBox
00:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Sandy, please stop confusing a genuine POV conflict with vandalism, which is always in bad faith and is clearly not the case here. If you want to be taken seriously you must stop assuming terrible faith on my part and the part of the anon who also disagrees with you. Clearly we are not alone and your stance seems very POV by the mere fact that you are shouting vandalism at the first sign of opposition in what is clearly anything but a clear cut case, SqueakBox 01:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC) SqueakBox 01:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It's far from clear that "every reliable source says he was President," Sandy. In the references this interviewer Ray Suarez at PBS says "will take over as transitional President." The BBC does say in one of the references that he was "installed by military officers as Venezuela's interim President." Aha, and the US State Department website of all sources says Carmona "proclaimed himself as interim president." Do any of these convey sufficient legitimacy for the historical record? I don't think so. Your accusations of vandalism and lack of good faith are spurious, there is a reasonable debate occurring over this content.
Thinking about it, whether or not he was President depends on whether other governments recognized him and his government. I would give particular weight to whether Venezuela's neighbors recognized him. And then consideration to other countries, and also if other organizations like the UN and OAS recognized him. DanielM 11:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Here, a link to a list of Venezuelan Presidents through 2004 that does not include Carmona: http://www.luz-aldia.com.ve/biblioteca-virtual/public_html/presidentes_venezuela.htm. DanielM 18:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Well Kilo-Lima definitely reverted me due to his persoanl pursuit of me [7] due to some some obscure dislike of me not because of his knowledge of Venezuelan politics (I know this sort of thing shouldn't be happening on wikipedia but it does) so it seems to me there is no consensus that Carmona was president and this incorrect anomaly should be removed, SqueakBox 18:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually Kil-Lima was directed here by Sandy who prefers to use trickery when he sees the debate is not going in his direction, SqueakBox 18:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps that is true that it is pre-1999, but it could also be a 2004 list, which I took it to be. DanielM 19:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Sandy, that's not a self-published website that I can see. It's a "virtual library" at an education-related website of some kind. And please, if you are going to quote rules, don't overlook WP:SELF (avoid self-references) which you evidently weren't aware of when you told us the Wikipedia list of Venezuelan Presidents supported the claim here that Carmona was President. DanielM 19:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
So we now have one source (the BBC) who claim he was President and 2 sources that claim he wasnt. As far as I am aware no government including the US goivernemnt recognised this criminlal when he claimed to be President illegally for 36 hours. For weikipedia to then single handedly claim he was an official President is nothing more than rewriting history, SqueakBox 19:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are 2 BBC articles
[9] and
[10] neither of which claim that Carmona was President, so even the |BBC was only claiming that while he was in power. In these 2 articles it is clear that hje neber was President so perhaps you would like to find ome refs that wetrent the BBC,
SqueakBox
19:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
teleSUR also call his regime al régimen de facto de Pedro Carmona Estanca so doesnt look like they recognise him as President either, SqueakBox 19:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Kilo-Lima/lolakana, were you supposed to remove the "Neutrality Disputed" tag when you locked the article? Seems to me you should have left it to reflect the reasonable disagreement over the article content. DanielM 19:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. As an admin he is not also allowed to be an editor. Reverting to one's own version and then locking is clearly against the rules of how admins should act and should be reported at the incidents page if not as an Rfc for abuse of admin powers, SqueakBox 19:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. As an admin he is not also allowed to be an editor. Reverting to one's own version and then locking is clearly against the rules of how admins should act and should be reported at the incidents page if not as an Rfc for abuse of admin powers, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Admin abuse by Kilo-Limaon Pedro Carmona, SqueakBox 19:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Protection is there for prevention. This is a dipute, and when disputes get out of hand (like now) protection comes in. Don't try and threated me. Iola k ana| T 20:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
No one is threatening you? How so? There is a dispute and you are a part of it. Why not ask another admin to lock the page. Gibven there is a dispute it might be an idea to leave in the dispute tag dont you think? SqueakBox 20:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
So what we have is Carmona's word for it backed up by the BBC at the time and the article locked in case anyone disagrees that he is President, SqueakBox 20:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Chavez never resigned! Whatr false facts? The only false fact I see is the claim that he was President. Of course reputable sources never claimed he wasnt President of Venezuala, no need to state the obvious as such a statement would have played into the hands of Carmona supporters, SqueakBox 20:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Hugo Chávez's article implies he wasnt the former Prersident, neither he or his criminal accomplice who some claim was also President, so wikipedia has been claiming 2 different things for ages. Hadn't you better fix the "vandalism" on that page and send templates to the talk page of the vandal? SqueakBox 21:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I hope that this set of sources clarifies that Carmona was indeed an interim president. Whether he was legally placed there or not, or who and how put him as the head of the government is another issue. What is sure is that he was a president:
I hope this closes the case.-- enano ( Talk) 22:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
All we actually need is to source Chavez has been President since 1999 to prove the Chavez point. This is clearly stated in the info box to Chavez amongst other places, SqueakBox 22:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
If infoboxes on wikipedia arent a reliable source why kick up the fuss about the removal of one as if (incorrectly) vital sources ahd been deleted by so doing. The Chavez box is like it is because people want it that way because they dont believe Carmona was President, as the Venezuelan gov doesn't believe it nor do most people, SqueakBox 23:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, and can we get Thomas Dewey put into the list of American presidents please? [11] DanielM 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
You figured it out. DanielM 22:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I see a number of statements above that don't take into account the problems with counting presidents, presidential terms, and succession order in Venezuelan presidents. Please read the discussion at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela. We need to get this right, rather than willy nilly deleting and changing information that is covered in a number of places. Because of the complexity of its history with respect to presidential succession, the table at Lists presents three different ways of counting presidents in Venezuela. Venezuela does not have clean, well-numbered lines of succession as, for example, the USA does. For example, there is a certain number of people who were President, and another number of presidential terms, as well as a number of "caretaker" "Presidents" in between. The List reflects all of those. SqueakBox should rest assured that Carmona, Cabello, and all of the other "interim" or "caretaker" presidents are not included in the tally of 53, but they are included to show a historical record that "something" happened there. The goal is to inform the Wiki reader via reliable sources. Can we please work together on this, rather than deleting material which was carefully constructed by prior editors? Deletionist editing without reviewing all of the issues and building consensus with all of the editors just creates extra work for everyone and foments discord. There is a long history around these articles and templates: let's figure it out, work together, and make any changes needed only once, after building consensus. Sandy 13:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
A good place to start building consensus would be to unlock the article and restore the NPOV tag, without this I dont see how any consensus can be built as consensus requires good faith on all sides and one side on this argument is not showing it. This is the US version of history and not a credible encyclopedia article, SqueakBox 17:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The article does not currently reflect any POV. It reflects a broad number of reliable sources, which is what Wiki is based on. If you want to balance the article by adding information stating that some say Carmona was never president, you still have not given us a reliable source upon which to base that content addition. If you provide it, it can be added.
There are *numerous* issues to be addressed on all of the articles about Venezuelan presidential info. I don't see any reason to unprotect the article if SqueakBox isn't willing to respect WP:V and WP:RS. It's not just this article that needs to be fixed, and we needn't be destructing carefully constructed tables and templates without broad consensus.
I can suggest, based on the discussions we've had at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela, a number of compromises that might satisfy SqueakBox. However, I'm not going to take the time to type up some ideas for developing a broader consensus including many editors of the Venezuelan articles, unless Squeak shows some interest in working via consensus, and respecting Wiki policies. If there is interest, I will type up some proposals at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela, for how we can handle all of these issues throughout the Venezuelan presidential articles. However, if we do that, I hope we will allow time for a number of editors to register their opinions and build consensus. The trend on the Venezuelan articles of deletionist, obstructionist editing without building consensus is tiring.
(Kllo-Lama, thank you for cleaning up the refs.) Sandy 19:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
One thing I do not understand is how the same people that say Diosdado Cabello was president, say Carmona wasn't. Then how could Diosdado have "replaced" Carmona as "interim President" after Chavez ___________ (fill whatever you like "was overthrown in a coup d'etat" or "resigned"). Anagnorisis 07:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No I think the same rules should apply to both Cabello and Carmona, SqueakBox 22:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Editing an article one has protected is against the rules of how admins should act. Clearly yet another case of a rogue admin, SqueakBox 19:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
What I object to is a user playing both admin and editor at the same time. he could have asked you to put those refs in or he could have asked another admin to lock the article or he could just have unlocked the article, which would have been the best bet. Failure to keep to the rules by admins when acting as admins undermines any structure wikipedia has and makes the non-admin feel something dodgy is going on. I am happy with the text but not the info box for either Cabello or Carmona as I feel it legitimises their claim to have been Presidents, SqueakBox 22:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No I am not interested in making out Carmona to be the bad guy, as I hope you saw with the Ortega article my interest is in NPOV not in slating the opposition to Chavez. I certainly think a full discussion of whther he was or was not President with arguments and refs from both sides is entirely desirable. My own angle is that I dislike Chavez socialism so am not a supporter of that side of his ideology but I love his Latin American integration and patriotism stuff and this includes the right of Venezueala to be an independent soverign nation and state whose POV should absolutely be taken into account, and I am certain that the current gob(ierno) doesnt recognise Carmona as having actually been a President. For a basically US centred encyclopedia (certainly in terms of physical location and who owns it) to be claiming he was President (and the problem with the infobox is it makes that into a black and white statement) seems to me to be POV. If the article were unlocked I would want to put in a POV tag but not remove the infobox again without consensus, and indeed that was how I left it after my last edit before it got locked [12]. I hadn't realised until yesterday that these infoboxes are a potential POV nightmare though I had realised that Venezuelan issues are highly touchy and had kept away from the subject but with the growing importance of Venezuela on the world stage and new TV channels from that country here in Honduras to watch I decided to get involved. And ouch! I have never vandalised an article intentionally in almost 2 years on the project and 20,000 odd edits and did feel narked to be accused of wrongly having done so. So do make some proposals and lets see what we can come up with, really it should be the list article and not this that deserves a POV tag, SqueakBox 00:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Well it certainly wasnt 9 times, 2 or 3, also as far as I am aware I didn't delete the refs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pedro_Carmona&diff=69099105&oldid=69097552], and for me vandalsim is always mal intentioned, ie I dont believe it is possible for a well intentioned user acting in good faith to deliberatley commit vandalism (no accidents here), but cheers for the apology, I will be busy myself this week with a colleague from the UK due tomorrow but will certainly keep engaged on this one and will be relatively free again by Sunday (though this last week has been a holiday), I will also see what I can do about references. I think in terms of uinfo boxes that the Chavez box needs to concur with the Carmona/Cabello ones, SqueakBox 00:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Getting down to resolve this dispute: How can we resolve it? Perhaps Pedro Carmona/temp is what we are looking for. I have removed, on the temp version, things about raided house illegaly because there were no sources cited for them. Obviously, some people ( weasel word) still think that he was not president, but this is not backed up with sources. So, is the temp fine? Or are there still further edits needed to it? Iola k ana• T 14:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Pedro carmona was never a president, because hugo chavez never resigned. Lets delete this article.
Since years this article states that Pedro Carmona was once President of Venezuela. A total ridicoules claim.
If you exclude hereditary or similar transition of power (such as by testament, see Pergamon etc.) there are only two possible ways to get president of a nation, or in other words "head of state". The WP is quite clear on this definitions (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head of state)
The first way is quite common: You win elections according to the laws and traditions of the said country and you get recognized by the political bodies of the state you´re "presiding". This is in every single case accompanied by rituals/inaugurations where the major players in the political game are present. The general acceptance of your status by the society you presiding is the legitimitaion for your title and comes through the law. This is basically the same if you get the presidency by succesion according the constitution because of death or resignation of the previous person in office.
The second way isn´t that usual but there are several quite famous cases: You achieve dictatorial power within a country and after its consolidation you claim yourself President, neglecting the previous legal frameworks and replacing them with new ones. It is actually quite controversial if people of this type are real presidents (or in other words: if dictators can be presidents). Famous "presidents" in this way were or are: Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, Pervez Musharraf, Abdel Nasser, Idi Amin, Francesco Franco, Kim Jong Il (actually he is it still, even he is dead) and others. The only legitimation for your title in this case is the power you have, especially because you can´t use the law you broke to legitimate yourself. This is the reason why most of those "presidents" search possibilities to achieve aswell a societal/law based legitimation by national (manipulated) elections.
So lets face the facts
-> To be called "officially" or in other words by law "President" you need the approval of the major political players. You can´t just proclaim yourself president by decree ignoring the established constitution and then claim that the state you wanted to control call you a former president after you failed to change its laws. This would be ridicoulus.
-> To be called president "by history" you would need the attributes attached to this term. You would need to have been the head of state of a country and fulfill the role of a president to get this label attached.
Carmona for sure fails the first option. There was never a for this entitled political institution inside Venezuela which called him president and there is no one now. Officially, Carmona was never president of Venezuela (Only fools could dispute that). But of course still Carmona could still be called president by the WP if he actually would have been one (But we would never call a demissioned or dead dictator a president after he left office, would we, so Carmona would need to have been a president, not just a representative of a Junta or a dictator). But Carmona never had executive Power inside Venezuela nor the recognition by other countries or international organizations what means executive power outside Venezuela. He only squated the presidential palace and broadcasted some speeches on television, this is no de facto presidency. So, in reality, Carmona was never a head of state and therefore never the president of Venezuela.
That Wikipedia actually tolerates this kindergarden-play to call that guy a "president" and to include him in Lists etc. is a sad thing. Just watch the talk-round broadcasted by pro-Coup-forces after the overtaking of the presidential palace. Carmona and his friends believed, they achieved control, but they never did. 83.180.231.8 03:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) ( - a swiss, on de as Fairfis)
PS: To mix the "Carabello" discussion with this one is actually senseless. The Carabello case is determined if his inauguration was actually according to the constitution (due to the fact that the official president claims he never resigned from its office and therefore couldn´t be replaced, if it was, he gets the legitimation by law, if not (most likely), he´s just a guy which was falsly proclaimed president.
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![]() | See #Resolving this dispute |
There are some obvious phrasing errors here which are anti-U.S, anti-Carmona and pro-Chavez. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.224.118 ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 25 August 2005 UTC
I don't detect any anti-US or pro-Chavez POV in the current article, maybe someone changed it. I really see some of the opposite. The dissolving of the Venezuelan General Assembly was obviously unconstitutional. You think the Venezuelan Constitution has a provision for someone to walk in and seize power, fire everybody, and dissolve the congress? That's absurd. Also, the statement that the U.S. was slow to condemn the coup sort of understates the fact that the U.S. never did condemn the coup. I reviewed and searched for news articles that said so, found nothing. I surely don't remember any condemnation. I'm going to fix the article. If someone can cite a reference for any U.S. condemnation of the coup, I welcome the correction to my edit. DanielM 20:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
@DeadSalmon, well the article in its current form doesn't say anything about the constitutionality of Carmona's actions so I don't think this is an issue. I think the tone of the sentence mentioning allegations that the U.S. supported the coup is okay and is factual, not condemnatory. I don't think an "interpretation of Carmona's actions by both sides" needs to be included in this article, but if it were it should probably have its own section. DanielM 09:17, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Another issue here is whether a Coup d'état occured in Venezuela in 2002. Please refer to page 36 of the article in the following link: http://www.law.duke.edu/news/pdf/lawmagfall02.pdf and make your own conclusions. I strongly believe that no coup d'état occured then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.248.230.172 ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 28 August 2006 UTC
As President, Carmona was the Commander of the Armed Force and therefore responsible for military actions during his regime. I Propose to restore this paragraph:
During the short-lived government of Pedro Carmona, military officers held President Chavez for 36 hours against his will and attempted to force his exile. Additionally, security forces conducted raids without warrants and took some Chavez supporters into custody illegally, including National Assembly deputy Tarek William Saab, a member of the Chavez-aligned MVR. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by JRSP ( talk • contribs) 20:18, 2 August 2006 UTC
Please establish some relevance of this statement to Carmona. The military officers are the ones who accepted Chavez's resignation *before* Carmona was sworn-in. What does the military holding Chavez have to do with Carmona?
Sandy 02:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Carmona was never a president, because chavez never resigned his office. I think this article should be revised and corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
Absolutely right, well spotted, I have fixed it, SqueakBox 00:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Really, that is not POV, in the usual sense anyhow, it is a question of the meaning of President and who should be included in the line of Presidents for an historical record. Carmona was installed for two or three days and made some decrees and tried to fire the Congress and so on, but all of that never much had any effect as far as I know because of the short time until Chavez returned to power and then it was null and void in totality. It seems odd to me to include Carmona in the line of Presidents and I think Chavez' tenure should be shown in an unbroken way since the time he was elected, really I think he was still President for those two or three days they confined him. However I would like to hear from a Venzuelan editor on this, have we got any? Leave it to the Venezuelans to tell us if Carmona was really President or not. DanielM 10:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Over 60% of venezuela voted for chavez, i think that is a clear stamp for chavez to uphold his presidency. IF you dont know what happend during those few days when chavez was captured and the us landed a helicopter to kidnap him out of venezuela, i suggest you watch the following movie, and see the truth with your own eyes. Chavez never resigned. I think what happend those days was a disgrace to democracy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
I dont think this is a question of democracy but whether he was President, and certainly IMO he never was and for wikipedia to claim he was grossly violates NPOV as it is politicking, claiming something that never was, SqueakBox 17:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Carmona disbanded the entire democraticly functioning institutions directly after he was "inaugurated". I find that a disgrace to democracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.155.7 ( talk • contribs)
Anon, please sign your talk page entries with four tildes ( ~~~~ ), and please use edit summaries on your article edits. Sandy 00:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that in the long run Carmona's presidency will be seen like a distant blip only relevant because of the the way it came into being and how it ended. For all practical purposes he was not president because there were no real consequences to his actions as president. However, for a few days (less than 48 hours) most Venezuelans (and also most outside Venezuela) believed that he had in fact become the new head of state. If perception is reality, then he was president. Of course all this was reversed when Chavez was brought back less than 2 days since he ___________ (fill whatever you like: 'resigned' or 'was illegally deposed'). The only reason we discuss this was because of the short time Carmona lasted as president. Had Chavez been away for, say, 5 weeks before being brought back, and had during that time Carmona remained in charge we wouldn't be discussing if he was or if he wasn't. But problem is that 1, 2, or 3 days looks like an extremely short and silly time for one to be listed as president. Anagnorisis 00:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This issue has not been resolved, hence the new pov tag. This is one of the most pov articles I have seen in over 2 years working here, presumably manipulated by anti-Chavez supporters. This shows a grave disrespect to the Venezuealn authorities and the country as a whole. I have tried to balance it a bi, all the refs were anti chavez, for example, SqueakBox 00:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
If I walk to a bank with a gun, take the bank manager a hostage and force him to sign a resignation letter, and then declare myself to be the bank manager, should the history books say I truly was the bank manager, or that I was just a crook? -- 80.222.32.123 15:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Wiki reports according to reliable sources. The idea that Carmona wasn't President of Venezuela — regardless of circumstances — is original research and POV. Multiple reliable sources report that Carmona was interim president. Please do not delete referenced content; inserting original research and POV is against Wiki polices of WP:V and WP:NPOV, and can be considered vandalism. Sandy 21:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
the original research is to claim he was President, your claims are ridiculous, SqueakBox 21:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Not when there is a genuine editorial dispute it isnt vandalism, as I am sure you know well. Making false vandalsim claims or threatening to is not the sign of a serious editor so if you want to negotiate seriously please dont talk rubbish or muddle a seriousd POV dispute with vandalism (policy is very clear on this and you are POV pushing by trying to distort policy), SqueakBox 00:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
What is clear is that some people will see Carmona as having been President and others definitely see him as having not been President (depending on whether one is sympathetic to Chavez or not). POV demands we give both sides of the story, and it equally demands that we dont present one side of the story (the anti Chavez side) as the only truth, that is POV pushing of thw worst kind, SqueakBox 00:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyway where are your references re Carmona as President. Do we have any from the Venezuelan Government? If not we should do or it could be argued as a term used by the critics and enemies of Venezuela and not the country itself. See
this for instance,
SqueakBox
00:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Sandy, please stop confusing a genuine POV conflict with vandalism, which is always in bad faith and is clearly not the case here. If you want to be taken seriously you must stop assuming terrible faith on my part and the part of the anon who also disagrees with you. Clearly we are not alone and your stance seems very POV by the mere fact that you are shouting vandalism at the first sign of opposition in what is clearly anything but a clear cut case, SqueakBox 01:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC) SqueakBox 01:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It's far from clear that "every reliable source says he was President," Sandy. In the references this interviewer Ray Suarez at PBS says "will take over as transitional President." The BBC does say in one of the references that he was "installed by military officers as Venezuela's interim President." Aha, and the US State Department website of all sources says Carmona "proclaimed himself as interim president." Do any of these convey sufficient legitimacy for the historical record? I don't think so. Your accusations of vandalism and lack of good faith are spurious, there is a reasonable debate occurring over this content.
Thinking about it, whether or not he was President depends on whether other governments recognized him and his government. I would give particular weight to whether Venezuela's neighbors recognized him. And then consideration to other countries, and also if other organizations like the UN and OAS recognized him. DanielM 11:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Here, a link to a list of Venezuelan Presidents through 2004 that does not include Carmona: http://www.luz-aldia.com.ve/biblioteca-virtual/public_html/presidentes_venezuela.htm. DanielM 18:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Well Kilo-Lima definitely reverted me due to his persoanl pursuit of me [7] due to some some obscure dislike of me not because of his knowledge of Venezuelan politics (I know this sort of thing shouldn't be happening on wikipedia but it does) so it seems to me there is no consensus that Carmona was president and this incorrect anomaly should be removed, SqueakBox 18:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually Kil-Lima was directed here by Sandy who prefers to use trickery when he sees the debate is not going in his direction, SqueakBox 18:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps that is true that it is pre-1999, but it could also be a 2004 list, which I took it to be. DanielM 19:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Sandy, that's not a self-published website that I can see. It's a "virtual library" at an education-related website of some kind. And please, if you are going to quote rules, don't overlook WP:SELF (avoid self-references) which you evidently weren't aware of when you told us the Wikipedia list of Venezuelan Presidents supported the claim here that Carmona was President. DanielM 19:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
So we now have one source (the BBC) who claim he was President and 2 sources that claim he wasnt. As far as I am aware no government including the US goivernemnt recognised this criminlal when he claimed to be President illegally for 36 hours. For weikipedia to then single handedly claim he was an official President is nothing more than rewriting history, SqueakBox 19:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are 2 BBC articles
[9] and
[10] neither of which claim that Carmona was President, so even the |BBC was only claiming that while he was in power. In these 2 articles it is clear that hje neber was President so perhaps you would like to find ome refs that wetrent the BBC,
SqueakBox
19:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
teleSUR also call his regime al régimen de facto de Pedro Carmona Estanca so doesnt look like they recognise him as President either, SqueakBox 19:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Kilo-Lima/lolakana, were you supposed to remove the "Neutrality Disputed" tag when you locked the article? Seems to me you should have left it to reflect the reasonable disagreement over the article content. DanielM 19:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. As an admin he is not also allowed to be an editor. Reverting to one's own version and then locking is clearly against the rules of how admins should act and should be reported at the incidents page if not as an Rfc for abuse of admin powers, SqueakBox 19:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. As an admin he is not also allowed to be an editor. Reverting to one's own version and then locking is clearly against the rules of how admins should act and should be reported at the incidents page if not as an Rfc for abuse of admin powers, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Admin abuse by Kilo-Limaon Pedro Carmona, SqueakBox 19:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Protection is there for prevention. This is a dipute, and when disputes get out of hand (like now) protection comes in. Don't try and threated me. Iola k ana| T 20:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
No one is threatening you? How so? There is a dispute and you are a part of it. Why not ask another admin to lock the page. Gibven there is a dispute it might be an idea to leave in the dispute tag dont you think? SqueakBox 20:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
So what we have is Carmona's word for it backed up by the BBC at the time and the article locked in case anyone disagrees that he is President, SqueakBox 20:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Chavez never resigned! Whatr false facts? The only false fact I see is the claim that he was President. Of course reputable sources never claimed he wasnt President of Venezuala, no need to state the obvious as such a statement would have played into the hands of Carmona supporters, SqueakBox 20:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Hugo Chávez's article implies he wasnt the former Prersident, neither he or his criminal accomplice who some claim was also President, so wikipedia has been claiming 2 different things for ages. Hadn't you better fix the "vandalism" on that page and send templates to the talk page of the vandal? SqueakBox 21:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I hope that this set of sources clarifies that Carmona was indeed an interim president. Whether he was legally placed there or not, or who and how put him as the head of the government is another issue. What is sure is that he was a president:
I hope this closes the case.-- enano ( Talk) 22:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
All we actually need is to source Chavez has been President since 1999 to prove the Chavez point. This is clearly stated in the info box to Chavez amongst other places, SqueakBox 22:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
If infoboxes on wikipedia arent a reliable source why kick up the fuss about the removal of one as if (incorrectly) vital sources ahd been deleted by so doing. The Chavez box is like it is because people want it that way because they dont believe Carmona was President, as the Venezuelan gov doesn't believe it nor do most people, SqueakBox 23:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, and can we get Thomas Dewey put into the list of American presidents please? [11] DanielM 22:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
You figured it out. DanielM 22:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I see a number of statements above that don't take into account the problems with counting presidents, presidential terms, and succession order in Venezuelan presidents. Please read the discussion at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela. We need to get this right, rather than willy nilly deleting and changing information that is covered in a number of places. Because of the complexity of its history with respect to presidential succession, the table at Lists presents three different ways of counting presidents in Venezuela. Venezuela does not have clean, well-numbered lines of succession as, for example, the USA does. For example, there is a certain number of people who were President, and another number of presidential terms, as well as a number of "caretaker" "Presidents" in between. The List reflects all of those. SqueakBox should rest assured that Carmona, Cabello, and all of the other "interim" or "caretaker" presidents are not included in the tally of 53, but they are included to show a historical record that "something" happened there. The goal is to inform the Wiki reader via reliable sources. Can we please work together on this, rather than deleting material which was carefully constructed by prior editors? Deletionist editing without reviewing all of the issues and building consensus with all of the editors just creates extra work for everyone and foments discord. There is a long history around these articles and templates: let's figure it out, work together, and make any changes needed only once, after building consensus. Sandy 13:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
A good place to start building consensus would be to unlock the article and restore the NPOV tag, without this I dont see how any consensus can be built as consensus requires good faith on all sides and one side on this argument is not showing it. This is the US version of history and not a credible encyclopedia article, SqueakBox 17:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
The article does not currently reflect any POV. It reflects a broad number of reliable sources, which is what Wiki is based on. If you want to balance the article by adding information stating that some say Carmona was never president, you still have not given us a reliable source upon which to base that content addition. If you provide it, it can be added.
There are *numerous* issues to be addressed on all of the articles about Venezuelan presidential info. I don't see any reason to unprotect the article if SqueakBox isn't willing to respect WP:V and WP:RS. It's not just this article that needs to be fixed, and we needn't be destructing carefully constructed tables and templates without broad consensus.
I can suggest, based on the discussions we've had at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela, a number of compromises that might satisfy SqueakBox. However, I'm not going to take the time to type up some ideas for developing a broader consensus including many editors of the Venezuelan articles, unless Squeak shows some interest in working via consensus, and respecting Wiki policies. If there is interest, I will type up some proposals at Talk:List of Presidents of Venezuela, for how we can handle all of these issues throughout the Venezuelan presidential articles. However, if we do that, I hope we will allow time for a number of editors to register their opinions and build consensus. The trend on the Venezuelan articles of deletionist, obstructionist editing without building consensus is tiring.
(Kllo-Lama, thank you for cleaning up the refs.) Sandy 19:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
One thing I do not understand is how the same people that say Diosdado Cabello was president, say Carmona wasn't. Then how could Diosdado have "replaced" Carmona as "interim President" after Chavez ___________ (fill whatever you like "was overthrown in a coup d'etat" or "resigned"). Anagnorisis 07:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No I think the same rules should apply to both Cabello and Carmona, SqueakBox 22:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Editing an article one has protected is against the rules of how admins should act. Clearly yet another case of a rogue admin, SqueakBox 19:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
What I object to is a user playing both admin and editor at the same time. he could have asked you to put those refs in or he could have asked another admin to lock the article or he could just have unlocked the article, which would have been the best bet. Failure to keep to the rules by admins when acting as admins undermines any structure wikipedia has and makes the non-admin feel something dodgy is going on. I am happy with the text but not the info box for either Cabello or Carmona as I feel it legitimises their claim to have been Presidents, SqueakBox 22:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No I am not interested in making out Carmona to be the bad guy, as I hope you saw with the Ortega article my interest is in NPOV not in slating the opposition to Chavez. I certainly think a full discussion of whther he was or was not President with arguments and refs from both sides is entirely desirable. My own angle is that I dislike Chavez socialism so am not a supporter of that side of his ideology but I love his Latin American integration and patriotism stuff and this includes the right of Venezueala to be an independent soverign nation and state whose POV should absolutely be taken into account, and I am certain that the current gob(ierno) doesnt recognise Carmona as having actually been a President. For a basically US centred encyclopedia (certainly in terms of physical location and who owns it) to be claiming he was President (and the problem with the infobox is it makes that into a black and white statement) seems to me to be POV. If the article were unlocked I would want to put in a POV tag but not remove the infobox again without consensus, and indeed that was how I left it after my last edit before it got locked [12]. I hadn't realised until yesterday that these infoboxes are a potential POV nightmare though I had realised that Venezuelan issues are highly touchy and had kept away from the subject but with the growing importance of Venezuela on the world stage and new TV channels from that country here in Honduras to watch I decided to get involved. And ouch! I have never vandalised an article intentionally in almost 2 years on the project and 20,000 odd edits and did feel narked to be accused of wrongly having done so. So do make some proposals and lets see what we can come up with, really it should be the list article and not this that deserves a POV tag, SqueakBox 00:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Well it certainly wasnt 9 times, 2 or 3, also as far as I am aware I didn't delete the refs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Pedro_Carmona&diff=69099105&oldid=69097552], and for me vandalsim is always mal intentioned, ie I dont believe it is possible for a well intentioned user acting in good faith to deliberatley commit vandalism (no accidents here), but cheers for the apology, I will be busy myself this week with a colleague from the UK due tomorrow but will certainly keep engaged on this one and will be relatively free again by Sunday (though this last week has been a holiday), I will also see what I can do about references. I think in terms of uinfo boxes that the Chavez box needs to concur with the Carmona/Cabello ones, SqueakBox 00:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Getting down to resolve this dispute: How can we resolve it? Perhaps Pedro Carmona/temp is what we are looking for. I have removed, on the temp version, things about raided house illegaly because there were no sources cited for them. Obviously, some people ( weasel word) still think that he was not president, but this is not backed up with sources. So, is the temp fine? Or are there still further edits needed to it? Iola k ana• T 14:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Pedro carmona was never a president, because hugo chavez never resigned. Lets delete this article.
Since years this article states that Pedro Carmona was once President of Venezuela. A total ridicoules claim.
If you exclude hereditary or similar transition of power (such as by testament, see Pergamon etc.) there are only two possible ways to get president of a nation, or in other words "head of state". The WP is quite clear on this definitions (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head of state)
The first way is quite common: You win elections according to the laws and traditions of the said country and you get recognized by the political bodies of the state you´re "presiding". This is in every single case accompanied by rituals/inaugurations where the major players in the political game are present. The general acceptance of your status by the society you presiding is the legitimitaion for your title and comes through the law. This is basically the same if you get the presidency by succesion according the constitution because of death or resignation of the previous person in office.
The second way isn´t that usual but there are several quite famous cases: You achieve dictatorial power within a country and after its consolidation you claim yourself President, neglecting the previous legal frameworks and replacing them with new ones. It is actually quite controversial if people of this type are real presidents (or in other words: if dictators can be presidents). Famous "presidents" in this way were or are: Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, Pervez Musharraf, Abdel Nasser, Idi Amin, Francesco Franco, Kim Jong Il (actually he is it still, even he is dead) and others. The only legitimation for your title in this case is the power you have, especially because you can´t use the law you broke to legitimate yourself. This is the reason why most of those "presidents" search possibilities to achieve aswell a societal/law based legitimation by national (manipulated) elections.
So lets face the facts
-> To be called "officially" or in other words by law "President" you need the approval of the major political players. You can´t just proclaim yourself president by decree ignoring the established constitution and then claim that the state you wanted to control call you a former president after you failed to change its laws. This would be ridicoulus.
-> To be called president "by history" you would need the attributes attached to this term. You would need to have been the head of state of a country and fulfill the role of a president to get this label attached.
Carmona for sure fails the first option. There was never a for this entitled political institution inside Venezuela which called him president and there is no one now. Officially, Carmona was never president of Venezuela (Only fools could dispute that). But of course still Carmona could still be called president by the WP if he actually would have been one (But we would never call a demissioned or dead dictator a president after he left office, would we, so Carmona would need to have been a president, not just a representative of a Junta or a dictator). But Carmona never had executive Power inside Venezuela nor the recognition by other countries or international organizations what means executive power outside Venezuela. He only squated the presidential palace and broadcasted some speeches on television, this is no de facto presidency. So, in reality, Carmona was never a head of state and therefore never the president of Venezuela.
That Wikipedia actually tolerates this kindergarden-play to call that guy a "president" and to include him in Lists etc. is a sad thing. Just watch the talk-round broadcasted by pro-Coup-forces after the overtaking of the presidential palace. Carmona and his friends believed, they achieved control, but they never did. 83.180.231.8 03:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) ( - a swiss, on de as Fairfis)
PS: To mix the "Carabello" discussion with this one is actually senseless. The Carabello case is determined if his inauguration was actually according to the constitution (due to the fact that the official president claims he never resigned from its office and therefore couldn´t be replaced, if it was, he gets the legitimation by law, if not (most likely), he´s just a guy which was falsly proclaimed president.
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