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I edited a previous edited that asserted that he was "Afro-Taino and Basque." This claim about Albizu Campos' ancestry was inserted by an anonymous user. It was not cited and is not verifiable, and he is most generally referred to as an Afro-Puerto Rican. It is important to note that although an Afro-Puerto Rican may have a Basque surname like Albizu, this in no way means that he is Basque, and could reflect, as in the majority of the African diaspora, a "slave name."-- Noopinonada ( talk) 04:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that there is no reference to Don Pedro's Taíno and Basque ancestry. I am not sure who originally posted it in the article, but they obviously did not quote a source. However, I have a source speaking about this. It is in a book called Albizu Campos Puerto Rican Revolutionary, by Federico Ribes Tovar. On page 17 it specifically refers to his parents and their ancestry. His father, Alejandro Albizu Romero, known as "El Vizcaíno”, was a Basque merchant living in Ponce. His mother, Julia Campos is described as being of Spanish, Indian (Taíno) and African descent. I am new to the whole editing on Wikipedia, so I am just posting this on the talk page. I hope that this information will be helpful.-- Iraorabo ( talk) 01:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
How Come all Nationalist Member Articles are being written from a Pro-Statehood Party point of view? ( Spacestoned ( talk) 06:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC))
Freemasonry is most definitely *NOT* a religion. If anything, it's a fraternity. Don Pedro was given a scholarship to study by the Aurora Lodge of Ponce, Puerto Rico, but he was NOT a freemason. It's widely known that Albizu was part of the Knights of Colombus, that have always been the Roman Catholic Church's response to and eternal rivals of the freemasons. This should be changed, pending verification by a trusted source, like Miñi Seijo's book.
--Changed I changed the religion to Roman Catholic. This can be confirmed by any biographical source regarding Don Pedro. Besides, Freemasonry is not a religion, it's a fraternal organization. Don Pedro was never a member of the Aurora Lodge #7 of Ponce.
P. Rivera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.46.131 ( talk) 13:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Pages such as this one are self-published conjecture and are not reliable. Andrevan @ 05:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Too much detailed history of Puerto Rico is given for a biography of an individual. More than a quarter century of history (and two sections of the article) does not need coverage before noting Abizu's own participation in the Nationalist Party. Sources have to be better used. Claims are made about his being medically mistreated in prison without saying why and when he was in prison. It is likely also that there are other accounts of this, which need to be included. It is undue weight to give so much space to his accusations against Rhoads. Yes, his comments were reprehensible, but have no basis in fact, as shown by more than one investigation. Parkwells ( talk) 18:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
I understand that Albizu is the paternal names, but what is the custom for using last names? In some places (and articles), he is referred to as Albizu, in others as Albizu Campos. Parkwells ( talk) 22:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Given that this is about Albizu Campos, I think there is too much content about US land grab in other nations. Specifically, I think the following is excess content here:
"Major US companies bought up and otherwise gained control of major portions of land throughout the Caribbean nations during the next decades. In 1912 the Cayumel Banana company, a U.S. corporation, orchestrated the military invasion of Honduras in order to obtain hundreds of thousands of acres of Honduran land. It arranged for tax-free export of its entire banana crop. [1]
By 1928 the United Fruit Company, another U.S. corporation, owned over 200,000 acres of prime Colombian farmland, much devoted to cultivating bananas. When a labor strike erupted against the company in December 6 of that year, company enforcers killed more than 1,000 men, women and children in suppressing the strike. This was known as the Banana Massacre. By 1930 the United Fruit Company owned over one million acres of land in Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Mexico and Cuba. [1] By 1940, in Honduras alone, the United Fruit Company owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country. [1]
By 1942, the United Fruit Company owned 75 percent of all private land in Guatemala - plus most of Guatemala's roads, power stations and phone lines, the only Pacific seaport, and every mile of railroad. [2]
The U.S. government supported these economic exploits. The U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt declared, “It is manifest destiny for a nation to own the islands which border its shores.” [3] He said, if “any South American country misbehaves it should be spanked.” [4]"
I agree that it is provocative, but it belongs better in histories of the countries and region, not this man's biography. It is not directly relevant to events in his life. Parkwells ( talk) 23:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
References
This article is unbalanced, and biased in favor of Don Pedro. His authoritarian streak, his adoption of Fascist symbols, and his correspondence with Francisco Franco were left out. Luis Angel Ferrao's book "Pedro Albizu Campos y el nacionalismo puertorriqueño" should be consulted as a source for these less-than-complementary view of Don Pedro. Furthermore, crediting Don Pedro with "the formal adoption of the Puerto Rican flag as a national emblem by the Puerto Rican government" is an oversimplification. There's more to Don Pedro's use of Puerto Rican national symbols as a source. The author must consult the debate transcripts of Puerto Rico's Constitutional Convention to explore the framers' true mind on the subject. Similarly, crediting Don Pedro with "the improvement of labor conditions for peasants and workers" is another oversimplification, which leaves out the activities of Don Santiago Iglesias Pantín (who was an early Socialist, but not a Nationalist) unmentioned. To end, this article about Don Pedro Albizu Campos needs extensive rewriting in order to restore in it a sense of sober balance. Teófilo de Jesús ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, this article is quite balanced. Rather than employing just one book or one source as the previous editor suggests, the many editors who contributed to this article over the past five years have consulted all of the following books, and cited many of them, in this and other articles concerning Puerto Rican history:
Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 06:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Within the space of two hours, an editor has 1) added 1,158 bytes of text, 2) deleted 821 bytes of text, 3) deleted sourced material, 4) deleted citations, and 5) done all of this, with no accompanying entry on this talk page.
I restored a small portion of this text, restored some citations, and provided a few more. I suggest greater caution and collaboration going forward.
Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 01:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In response to the notice about Massive editing, User:Parkwells has now imported his edit warring from another page onto this page. He imported yet another 1,440 bytes of controversial material from the Cornelius P. Rhoads page onto this page. This material is currently undergoing heavy editing (and reversions, and edit warring) due to User:Parkwells continued unilateral actions (adding and removing massive amounts of sourced material) without discussing it on any talk pages, until after the damage is done.
We strongly advise, User:Parkwells, against your exporting material which is being heavily edited (and reverted, and edit warred) on other pages, until reasonable consensus has been established.
The content in this article has been restored. Please do not engage in further massive reversions, and importation of controversial material from the Cornelius P. Rhoads article, until reasonable consensus has been reached on that article. Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 14:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
This page has been protected due to the edit war. Please, discuss the issues involved here and reach an agreement. Tony the Marine ( talk) 15:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
What is the edit war? I don't see anything too bad. Andrevan @ 17:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected by yours truly; sorry to override you Tony, but I don't think that is really appropriate in this case. Parkwell listed a series of edits which seem valid to me on this page and nobody has responded that they are not. He appears suited to discussion in detail on a variety of issues; we should not accuse him of bad faith. Andrevan @ 23:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
The following short paragraphs and one-sentence paragraphs (about US land grabs in Central America and region) should be combined into one, with repetition of the full title of "United Fruit Company" reduced. This seems basic editing, and not a controversial matter to bring to the Talk page, but someone reverted my edits to try to achieve such concision. Let's talk about how to treat this better. <<In 1912 the Cayumel Banana company, a U.S. corporation, orchestrated the military invasion of Honduras in order to obtain hundreds of thousands of acres of Honduran land, and tax-free export of its entire banana crop.[17]
By 1928 the United Fruit Company, also a US corporation, owned over 200,000 acres of prime Colombian farmland. In December of that year, its officials put down a labor strike in what was called the Banana Massacre, resulting in the deaths of 1,000 persons, including women and children. [18][19]
By 1930, United Fruit owned over one million acres of land in Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Mexico and Cuba.[17] By 1940, in Honduras alone, UFC owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country.[17]
By 1940, in Honduras alone, the United Fruit Company owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country.[17]
By 1942, United Fruit owned 75 percent of all private land in Guatemala - plus most of Guatemala's roads, power stations and phone lines, the only Pacific seaport, and every mile of railroad.The U.S. government supported these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary.[20]>> Please propose a solution if you don't like mine. Parkwells ( talk) 20:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
This section now reads only that the Rockefeller Institute conducted an investigation. Do you intend to leave the impression that only Americans investigated this in 1932? That's not accurate. The Puerto Rican AG led a thorough investigation of more than 250 medical records, not just the 13 patients who had died. I really don't know what your goal is here. Parkwells ( talk) 20:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
"In response to Roosevelt's declaration of U.S. "Manifest Destiny," Nationalist activists started organizing in Puerto Rico." This needs a cite; the assertion is unsourced. It seemes to be a delayed response for a catalyzing event, as Roosevelt ended his term in 1909, and the first date related to the Nationalist Party in this section is 1919. Parkwells ( talk) 21:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Note duplicate sentences: in next to last paragraph is: The U.S. government supported these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary.[20]
In last paragraph is: The U.S. government supported all these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary. Openly and proudly, U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt declared ..." This structure implies that land expansion was done under Roosevelt, but it all happened after he left. What president authorized military "persuasion"? It would be useful to say who carried out Roosevelt's vision, and to tell when the military was used. Parkwells ( talk) 21:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
In this section, there was duplication of content on the two 1930s massacres. Deleted this version in favor of more complete one with citation: "The Nationalist movement was intensified by the Ponce Massacre and the Rio Piedras Massacre, which showed the violence which the United States was prepared to use, in order to maintain its colonial regime in Puerto Rico. The profits generated by this one-sided arrangement were enormous." Parkwells ( talk) 17:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Lederer shows that Rhoads publicly apologized in November for the letter to staff and doctors of the Anemia Commission, where he was working, before returning to NY in Dec., and before Albizu was given and distributed the letter, and the full scandal erupted. I think it's worth adding. "Rhoads had already returned to New York, after publicly apologizing for the letter to the staff and doctors of the Anemia Commission, where he was working." [1] Parkwells ( talk) 17:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
(unindent)
Also, as far as Aponte paying for the records, indeed he did, and the ready availability of those records online is why I didn't. The fact is that Aponte was ostracized by the academic community and now writes historical fiction novellas. His self-published work isn't reliable per our policies. Andrevan @ 17:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
References
There seems to be a great collection of news articles here. I don't speak Spanish. Is there a way to auto-translate a PDF, or would anyone care to help out? Andrevan @ 17:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
The first civilian governor is a topic in numerous articles on Puerto Rico, as well as his own, and was noted as having become president of American Sugar Refining Co. in 1901, has a caption on his photo as "first sugar baron of Puerto Rico", and said to have had outsized influence on the economy. According to the NY Times (which I cited in the article), he did not become pres. until 1913 of American Sugar and only served two years, resigning in June 1915. So I think he can't be said to have owned most of the sugar plantation land in 1930, along with US banks, as is also alleged here. Also, to describe him as the "first sugar baron" seems inaccurate. I'm sure there were big landowners who owned sugar plantations in Puerto Rico while Spain still controlled the island. Corrected for the facts in the NY Times article. Parkwells ( talk) 03:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Truman Clark's 1975 history of Puerto Rico and the US up to 1933 (cited here for full text of Rhoads' letter and for more in Rhoads' article) also makes an interesting point of noting that Albizu Campos linked the Rhoads letter to continuing Nationalist Party concerns about US governors encouraging labor emigration to the US and promoting birth control. As a result of that, Beverley struggled with a much larger political crisis (for him) later in 1932 when he was attacked in Puerto Rico and even moreso by American Catholics for his support of birth control. His provoking this controversy contributed to his being removed from the governor's position. This seems worth adding for showing how Albizu Campos used these issues in his campaign. Parkwells ( talk) 14:34, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
It is not a good policy to unilaterally remove photos, from an article that has been developed by multiple and knowledgeable editors over a long period of time. In the most recent case, the photo of three key Nationalists heading for prison has important historical value.
All three of these men are independently noteworthy. They each have articles here in Wikipedia. All three of them were convicted of conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government and incitement to riot. In Albizu's case, he would serve 25 years in prison (three separate prison terms). This photo represents one of the last moments, when these three historical figures were FREE MEN.
They were also key political leaders, during a very turbulent (and violent) time.
In the case of Albizu, the photo is also significant, because it shows his healthy physical condition before prison. He was severely mistreated in the Atlanta penitentiary - so much so, that he was paroled to a hospital in NYC for nearly a year, when he was released in 1946. This photo shows his condition of health before prison.
I think there was a flaw in the photo caption. It did not properly reflect that these men were under indictment, headed for trial, and years of imprisonment. On that basis (for an editor who doesn't know the history) the photo can be misinterpreted as a "casual" photo. That is not Damiens' fault - he just doesn't know, and that is not his fault. But Damiens, it's better if you do things a little more slowly, and ask a question or two -- then you can hear some of this interesting and important history, and we can all work and grow together.
About three months ago (scroll up to October 2013) I placed a small reading list that might be helpful to editors, with respect to Puerto Rican history. It is a small, basic list - but it can help. Here it is again:
This list is not exhaustive. Several of the above sources were cited in a number of the Puerto Rican history articles. I encourage any editor (not just you Damiens, I'm definitely not singling you out) to consult these sources before imposing major changes on articles that have been written collaboratively, by many other editors, over a period of several years.
After this posting, I'm going to provide a little more detail to the photo under discussion, and then I'm going to restore it. I hope we can all work together here. These articles are important to us (the editors who've built them). We don't always have to go to ANI or noticeboards -- we can learn and appreciate the underlying humanity of the articles, that we work so hard to build ! Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 10:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment. With all respect Damiens, but your failure to see another editor's argument is not a reason to nominate an image for deletion. That would be a reason to ask questions. Perhaps you just weren't patient with Nelson? Or perhaps you did not ask the right questions? Or perhaps you failed to take advantage that I was here and attempting to "translate" between you two? Your submission to FfD on this basis just doesn't seem to add up. Perhaps I am missing something. Mercy11 ( talk) 14:05, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
In the "Legacy" section of this article, an editor recently imported a quotation stating that "His critics say that he failed to attract and offer concrete solutions to the struggling poor and working class people and thus was unable to spread the revolution to the masses." This quote was lifted from an article that was overwhelmingly dedicated to documenting Albizu Campos's dedication, struggle, and effective contribution to the political development and cultural awareness of his countrymen and women. This quote was thus lifted out of context for editorial "balance," but given the 99.9% opposite view of the article from which it was lifted, it seems more like an editorial POV.
It is also factually inept...logic and common sense will indicate that being imprisoned for 25 years - i.e. the majority of one's adult life - and then followed by the FBI all over the island, has a lot more to do with one's inability to lead people, than an alleged personal failure to connect with the masses. Sarason ( talk) 14:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
As I read the reply above I think perhaps I wasn't making myself as clear as I should have. Using the money analogy, I am asking whether or not the $20 bill is real or counterfeit. If it's counterfeit, then we can't use it to do our laundry, buy our mother some flowers, donate $20 to the homeless, or even score some bitchin' ganja.
So... the allegation is that my use of the article in the NY Latino Journal as a reliable source is “willfully improper”. I am curious to know which policy you believe I am breaking. To date I have been called out for violating WP:QUESTIONABLE and WP:Verifiability. Both of these policies deal with whether or not information within an article on the Mighty Wik can be traced back to a reliable source, which in this case would be whether or not the NY Latino Journal is a reliable source. Based on the way the reply above is phrased I am going to infer that the editor accepts the NY Latino Journal is a reliable source, so these two policies aren't the issue. It has also been alleged that the edit I am trying to make violates WP:BALASPS. This however is a misapplication as that policy deals with giving appropriate weight and balance to various aspects of the subject so that you don’t, for example, end up with an entire section on the fact that PAC didn’t brush his teeth before he went to bed at night. So again, which specific policy am I violating that makes my edit “willfully improper”?
As to your response that I “failed” to address "a well-researched and well-documented response":
1) As to the "inadequacy" of sourcing, the information that there are critics who believe that PAC failed to win over the masses is attributable to NY Latino Journal. If that source is reliable then the quote about the critics is reliable.
2) The fact is the “highly detailed program which Albizu and the Nationalists did develop and advocate” failed to win over the masses. This is shown by the drubbing that Albizu and the Nationalists repeatedly experienced at the polls. The best results that I have able to find for them is when they won 2.6% of the vote in 1932. It is further evidenced by the support Albizu received when he ordered the uprisings in 1950 and a grand total of 4.8e-5% of the population rushed to his side, a percentage so small that it is best written in scientific notation.
3) Albizu’s 25 years in jail and the surveillance he suffered absolutely were instrumental in his failure to win over the masses. But this was the result of his poorly thought out strategy to achieve Puerto Rican independence through violent means, means that failed to generate any significant popular support.
With respect to the reading list that you added (for the third time) on this talk page, did you use all of them in your "well-researched and well-documented response"? Just wondering as you only cited one (not that cites are ever required on talk pages)... Hammersbach ( talk) 17:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
There has been a lot of chatter about this issue so far but no clear direction other than objection to the use of the statement "His critics say that he "failed to attract ..." when there is no factual verification who its author is so we can judge his authority as a reliable source. As such, I would like to ask for a show of hands and corresponding conclusion/supporting comments on this one objection: Should the statement "His critics say that he 'failed to attract and offer concrete solutions to the struggling poor and working class people and thus was unable to spread the revolution to the masses' and credited to Juan Antonio Ocasio Rivera in the NY LATINO JOURNAL, be kept or deleted? (note the question is not about whether or not the statement is true, but whther it can be kept in teh context of coming from JAOR as a reliable source). Please sign your name under the appropriate choice below:
Thank you for participating (If anyone has another process than this Consensus process feel free to share it!). Mercy11 ( talk) 19:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
A new editor (or at least a new account) named TheMakerGuy has asserted an unusual point.
As we all know: Pedro Albizu Campos was the president of the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico, the first Puerto Rican to graduate from Harvard and from Harvard Law School, and imprisoned for 25 years for promoting the independence of Puerto Rico. His nationality was listed as Puerto Rican in hundreds of FBI files, some of which are cited in this article. Hundreds more articles, books, monographs and doctoral dissertations state that Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican.
However, TheMakerGuy does not feel that Albizu Campos' nationality was Puerto Rican. He bases this on two subjective points:
I pointed out to TheMakerGuy that the Wiki article Nationality states that, in several areas of the world, the term "nationality" can be based on ethnicity. TheMakerGuy ignored this and reverted me, because "75.8% of Puerto Rico is White."
I'm taking the time to respond in a calm and deliberate manner, because I don't think TheMakerGuy intended this as a racist insult. However TheMakerGuy, please understand that when you equate being "White" with being "American," you are making a deeply offensive statement.
TheMakerGuy, you are also mistakenly conflating ethnicity with race. Those are two different things.
With respect to Puerto Rican nationality - the insular racial composition (White, Black, Taino/Arawak) has no bearing whatsoever on the nationality issue. The political designation ("Commonwealth") is also not dispositive. The Irish people did not stop being Irish, and Indians did not stop being Indian, despite centuries of British domination. The Vietnamese did not stop being Vietnamese during the occupation of French Indochina.
Pedro Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican. His nationality is Puerto Rican. Don't take my word for it: read his birth certificate. Read the hundreds of FBI Files available at the Centro de Estudio Puertorriqueños (119th Street and 3rd Avenue) in NYC. Read the hundreds of articles, books, monographs and doctoral dissertations which state that Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican. Read his own book La Conciencia Nacional Puertorriqueña, (Cerro del Agua, Mexico: Siglo Veintiuno Editores, S.A., 1977). Read his wife's autobiography: Albizu Campos y la Independencia de Puerto Rico, by Laura Albizu Campos Meneses (Puerto Rico: Publicaciones Puertorriqueñas, Inc., 2007). Read his New York Times obituary from April 1965. You can also read any/all of the following:
Sarason ( talk) 05:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Let's not loose sight of a crucial point. Albizu Campos was NOT jailed because he espoused independence for Puerto Rico. He was jailed because he espoused armed, violent insurrection against the government. The nationalists felt that the solution to the independence issue lay in guns, bombs, murder, and violent overthrow of the insular government. Many other people, including the PIP, argued forcefully for Puerto Rican independence, but argued for a LEGAL process through the election of a legislature and governor who could then pressure the American Congress to take up the matter. That's how PR gained autonomy from Spain, and that is the hope even now. Albizu Campos was, I hate to say, a terrorist, despite his breathtaking intelligence and talents; his radicalism robbed Puerto Rico of the benefits of those talents.
The lead paragraph incredibly gives Albizu Campos credit for founding the Knights of Columbus. However, the Wiki article on the K of C gives the founding date as 1882, nine years before he was born. That the K of C was active before he was born is easily verified, as in this volume: Acts of the Connecticut Legislature, 1889 (see page 927), containing amendments to the K of C charter from two years before he was born. The tale that he founded the Knights of Columbus is only slightly more believable than an assertion that he sailed with Columbus in the first place. Plazak ( talk) 15:46, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pedro Albizu Campos article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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I edited a previous edited that asserted that he was "Afro-Taino and Basque." This claim about Albizu Campos' ancestry was inserted by an anonymous user. It was not cited and is not verifiable, and he is most generally referred to as an Afro-Puerto Rican. It is important to note that although an Afro-Puerto Rican may have a Basque surname like Albizu, this in no way means that he is Basque, and could reflect, as in the majority of the African diaspora, a "slave name."-- Noopinonada ( talk) 04:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that there is no reference to Don Pedro's Taíno and Basque ancestry. I am not sure who originally posted it in the article, but they obviously did not quote a source. However, I have a source speaking about this. It is in a book called Albizu Campos Puerto Rican Revolutionary, by Federico Ribes Tovar. On page 17 it specifically refers to his parents and their ancestry. His father, Alejandro Albizu Romero, known as "El Vizcaíno”, was a Basque merchant living in Ponce. His mother, Julia Campos is described as being of Spanish, Indian (Taíno) and African descent. I am new to the whole editing on Wikipedia, so I am just posting this on the talk page. I hope that this information will be helpful.-- Iraorabo ( talk) 01:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
How Come all Nationalist Member Articles are being written from a Pro-Statehood Party point of view? ( Spacestoned ( talk) 06:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC))
Freemasonry is most definitely *NOT* a religion. If anything, it's a fraternity. Don Pedro was given a scholarship to study by the Aurora Lodge of Ponce, Puerto Rico, but he was NOT a freemason. It's widely known that Albizu was part of the Knights of Colombus, that have always been the Roman Catholic Church's response to and eternal rivals of the freemasons. This should be changed, pending verification by a trusted source, like Miñi Seijo's book.
--Changed I changed the religion to Roman Catholic. This can be confirmed by any biographical source regarding Don Pedro. Besides, Freemasonry is not a religion, it's a fraternal organization. Don Pedro was never a member of the Aurora Lodge #7 of Ponce.
P. Rivera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.46.131 ( talk) 13:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Pages such as this one are self-published conjecture and are not reliable. Andrevan @ 05:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Too much detailed history of Puerto Rico is given for a biography of an individual. More than a quarter century of history (and two sections of the article) does not need coverage before noting Abizu's own participation in the Nationalist Party. Sources have to be better used. Claims are made about his being medically mistreated in prison without saying why and when he was in prison. It is likely also that there are other accounts of this, which need to be included. It is undue weight to give so much space to his accusations against Rhoads. Yes, his comments were reprehensible, but have no basis in fact, as shown by more than one investigation. Parkwells ( talk) 18:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
I understand that Albizu is the paternal names, but what is the custom for using last names? In some places (and articles), he is referred to as Albizu, in others as Albizu Campos. Parkwells ( talk) 22:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Given that this is about Albizu Campos, I think there is too much content about US land grab in other nations. Specifically, I think the following is excess content here:
"Major US companies bought up and otherwise gained control of major portions of land throughout the Caribbean nations during the next decades. In 1912 the Cayumel Banana company, a U.S. corporation, orchestrated the military invasion of Honduras in order to obtain hundreds of thousands of acres of Honduran land. It arranged for tax-free export of its entire banana crop. [1]
By 1928 the United Fruit Company, another U.S. corporation, owned over 200,000 acres of prime Colombian farmland, much devoted to cultivating bananas. When a labor strike erupted against the company in December 6 of that year, company enforcers killed more than 1,000 men, women and children in suppressing the strike. This was known as the Banana Massacre. By 1930 the United Fruit Company owned over one million acres of land in Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Mexico and Cuba. [1] By 1940, in Honduras alone, the United Fruit Company owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country. [1]
By 1942, the United Fruit Company owned 75 percent of all private land in Guatemala - plus most of Guatemala's roads, power stations and phone lines, the only Pacific seaport, and every mile of railroad. [2]
The U.S. government supported these economic exploits. The U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt declared, “It is manifest destiny for a nation to own the islands which border its shores.” [3] He said, if “any South American country misbehaves it should be spanked.” [4]"
I agree that it is provocative, but it belongs better in histories of the countries and region, not this man's biography. It is not directly relevant to events in his life. Parkwells ( talk) 23:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
References
This article is unbalanced, and biased in favor of Don Pedro. His authoritarian streak, his adoption of Fascist symbols, and his correspondence with Francisco Franco were left out. Luis Angel Ferrao's book "Pedro Albizu Campos y el nacionalismo puertorriqueño" should be consulted as a source for these less-than-complementary view of Don Pedro. Furthermore, crediting Don Pedro with "the formal adoption of the Puerto Rican flag as a national emblem by the Puerto Rican government" is an oversimplification. There's more to Don Pedro's use of Puerto Rican national symbols as a source. The author must consult the debate transcripts of Puerto Rico's Constitutional Convention to explore the framers' true mind on the subject. Similarly, crediting Don Pedro with "the improvement of labor conditions for peasants and workers" is another oversimplification, which leaves out the activities of Don Santiago Iglesias Pantín (who was an early Socialist, but not a Nationalist) unmentioned. To end, this article about Don Pedro Albizu Campos needs extensive rewriting in order to restore in it a sense of sober balance. Teófilo de Jesús ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, this article is quite balanced. Rather than employing just one book or one source as the previous editor suggests, the many editors who contributed to this article over the past five years have consulted all of the following books, and cited many of them, in this and other articles concerning Puerto Rican history:
Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 06:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Within the space of two hours, an editor has 1) added 1,158 bytes of text, 2) deleted 821 bytes of text, 3) deleted sourced material, 4) deleted citations, and 5) done all of this, with no accompanying entry on this talk page.
I restored a small portion of this text, restored some citations, and provided a few more. I suggest greater caution and collaboration going forward.
Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 01:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
In response to the notice about Massive editing, User:Parkwells has now imported his edit warring from another page onto this page. He imported yet another 1,440 bytes of controversial material from the Cornelius P. Rhoads page onto this page. This material is currently undergoing heavy editing (and reversions, and edit warring) due to User:Parkwells continued unilateral actions (adding and removing massive amounts of sourced material) without discussing it on any talk pages, until after the damage is done.
We strongly advise, User:Parkwells, against your exporting material which is being heavily edited (and reverted, and edit warred) on other pages, until reasonable consensus has been established.
The content in this article has been restored. Please do not engage in further massive reversions, and importation of controversial material from the Cornelius P. Rhoads article, until reasonable consensus has been reached on that article. Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 14:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
This page has been protected due to the edit war. Please, discuss the issues involved here and reach an agreement. Tony the Marine ( talk) 15:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
What is the edit war? I don't see anything too bad. Andrevan @ 17:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected by yours truly; sorry to override you Tony, but I don't think that is really appropriate in this case. Parkwell listed a series of edits which seem valid to me on this page and nobody has responded that they are not. He appears suited to discussion in detail on a variety of issues; we should not accuse him of bad faith. Andrevan @ 23:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
The following short paragraphs and one-sentence paragraphs (about US land grabs in Central America and region) should be combined into one, with repetition of the full title of "United Fruit Company" reduced. This seems basic editing, and not a controversial matter to bring to the Talk page, but someone reverted my edits to try to achieve such concision. Let's talk about how to treat this better. <<In 1912 the Cayumel Banana company, a U.S. corporation, orchestrated the military invasion of Honduras in order to obtain hundreds of thousands of acres of Honduran land, and tax-free export of its entire banana crop.[17]
By 1928 the United Fruit Company, also a US corporation, owned over 200,000 acres of prime Colombian farmland. In December of that year, its officials put down a labor strike in what was called the Banana Massacre, resulting in the deaths of 1,000 persons, including women and children. [18][19]
By 1930, United Fruit owned over one million acres of land in Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Mexico and Cuba.[17] By 1940, in Honduras alone, UFC owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country.[17]
By 1940, in Honduras alone, the United Fruit Company owned 50 percent of all private land in the entire country.[17]
By 1942, United Fruit owned 75 percent of all private land in Guatemala - plus most of Guatemala's roads, power stations and phone lines, the only Pacific seaport, and every mile of railroad.The U.S. government supported these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary.[20]>> Please propose a solution if you don't like mine. Parkwells ( talk) 20:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
This section now reads only that the Rockefeller Institute conducted an investigation. Do you intend to leave the impression that only Americans investigated this in 1932? That's not accurate. The Puerto Rican AG led a thorough investigation of more than 250 medical records, not just the 13 patients who had died. I really don't know what your goal is here. Parkwells ( talk) 20:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
"In response to Roosevelt's declaration of U.S. "Manifest Destiny," Nationalist activists started organizing in Puerto Rico." This needs a cite; the assertion is unsourced. It seemes to be a delayed response for a catalyzing event, as Roosevelt ended his term in 1909, and the first date related to the Nationalist Party in this section is 1919. Parkwells ( talk) 21:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Note duplicate sentences: in next to last paragraph is: The U.S. government supported these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary.[20]
In last paragraph is: The U.S. government supported all these economic exploits, and provided military "persuasion" whenever necessary. Openly and proudly, U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt declared ..." This structure implies that land expansion was done under Roosevelt, but it all happened after he left. What president authorized military "persuasion"? It would be useful to say who carried out Roosevelt's vision, and to tell when the military was used. Parkwells ( talk) 21:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
In this section, there was duplication of content on the two 1930s massacres. Deleted this version in favor of more complete one with citation: "The Nationalist movement was intensified by the Ponce Massacre and the Rio Piedras Massacre, which showed the violence which the United States was prepared to use, in order to maintain its colonial regime in Puerto Rico. The profits generated by this one-sided arrangement were enormous." Parkwells ( talk) 17:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Lederer shows that Rhoads publicly apologized in November for the letter to staff and doctors of the Anemia Commission, where he was working, before returning to NY in Dec., and before Albizu was given and distributed the letter, and the full scandal erupted. I think it's worth adding. "Rhoads had already returned to New York, after publicly apologizing for the letter to the staff and doctors of the Anemia Commission, where he was working." [1] Parkwells ( talk) 17:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
(unindent)
Also, as far as Aponte paying for the records, indeed he did, and the ready availability of those records online is why I didn't. The fact is that Aponte was ostracized by the academic community and now writes historical fiction novellas. His self-published work isn't reliable per our policies. Andrevan @ 17:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
References
There seems to be a great collection of news articles here. I don't speak Spanish. Is there a way to auto-translate a PDF, or would anyone care to help out? Andrevan @ 17:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
The first civilian governor is a topic in numerous articles on Puerto Rico, as well as his own, and was noted as having become president of American Sugar Refining Co. in 1901, has a caption on his photo as "first sugar baron of Puerto Rico", and said to have had outsized influence on the economy. According to the NY Times (which I cited in the article), he did not become pres. until 1913 of American Sugar and only served two years, resigning in June 1915. So I think he can't be said to have owned most of the sugar plantation land in 1930, along with US banks, as is also alleged here. Also, to describe him as the "first sugar baron" seems inaccurate. I'm sure there were big landowners who owned sugar plantations in Puerto Rico while Spain still controlled the island. Corrected for the facts in the NY Times article. Parkwells ( talk) 03:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Truman Clark's 1975 history of Puerto Rico and the US up to 1933 (cited here for full text of Rhoads' letter and for more in Rhoads' article) also makes an interesting point of noting that Albizu Campos linked the Rhoads letter to continuing Nationalist Party concerns about US governors encouraging labor emigration to the US and promoting birth control. As a result of that, Beverley struggled with a much larger political crisis (for him) later in 1932 when he was attacked in Puerto Rico and even moreso by American Catholics for his support of birth control. His provoking this controversy contributed to his being removed from the governor's position. This seems worth adding for showing how Albizu Campos used these issues in his campaign. Parkwells ( talk) 14:34, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
It is not a good policy to unilaterally remove photos, from an article that has been developed by multiple and knowledgeable editors over a long period of time. In the most recent case, the photo of three key Nationalists heading for prison has important historical value.
All three of these men are independently noteworthy. They each have articles here in Wikipedia. All three of them were convicted of conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government and incitement to riot. In Albizu's case, he would serve 25 years in prison (three separate prison terms). This photo represents one of the last moments, when these three historical figures were FREE MEN.
They were also key political leaders, during a very turbulent (and violent) time.
In the case of Albizu, the photo is also significant, because it shows his healthy physical condition before prison. He was severely mistreated in the Atlanta penitentiary - so much so, that he was paroled to a hospital in NYC for nearly a year, when he was released in 1946. This photo shows his condition of health before prison.
I think there was a flaw in the photo caption. It did not properly reflect that these men were under indictment, headed for trial, and years of imprisonment. On that basis (for an editor who doesn't know the history) the photo can be misinterpreted as a "casual" photo. That is not Damiens' fault - he just doesn't know, and that is not his fault. But Damiens, it's better if you do things a little more slowly, and ask a question or two -- then you can hear some of this interesting and important history, and we can all work and grow together.
About three months ago (scroll up to October 2013) I placed a small reading list that might be helpful to editors, with respect to Puerto Rican history. It is a small, basic list - but it can help. Here it is again:
This list is not exhaustive. Several of the above sources were cited in a number of the Puerto Rican history articles. I encourage any editor (not just you Damiens, I'm definitely not singling you out) to consult these sources before imposing major changes on articles that have been written collaboratively, by many other editors, over a period of several years.
After this posting, I'm going to provide a little more detail to the photo under discussion, and then I'm going to restore it. I hope we can all work together here. These articles are important to us (the editors who've built them). We don't always have to go to ANI or noticeboards -- we can learn and appreciate the underlying humanity of the articles, that we work so hard to build ! Nelsondenis248 ( talk) 10:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment. With all respect Damiens, but your failure to see another editor's argument is not a reason to nominate an image for deletion. That would be a reason to ask questions. Perhaps you just weren't patient with Nelson? Or perhaps you did not ask the right questions? Or perhaps you failed to take advantage that I was here and attempting to "translate" between you two? Your submission to FfD on this basis just doesn't seem to add up. Perhaps I am missing something. Mercy11 ( talk) 14:05, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
In the "Legacy" section of this article, an editor recently imported a quotation stating that "His critics say that he failed to attract and offer concrete solutions to the struggling poor and working class people and thus was unable to spread the revolution to the masses." This quote was lifted from an article that was overwhelmingly dedicated to documenting Albizu Campos's dedication, struggle, and effective contribution to the political development and cultural awareness of his countrymen and women. This quote was thus lifted out of context for editorial "balance," but given the 99.9% opposite view of the article from which it was lifted, it seems more like an editorial POV.
It is also factually inept...logic and common sense will indicate that being imprisoned for 25 years - i.e. the majority of one's adult life - and then followed by the FBI all over the island, has a lot more to do with one's inability to lead people, than an alleged personal failure to connect with the masses. Sarason ( talk) 14:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
As I read the reply above I think perhaps I wasn't making myself as clear as I should have. Using the money analogy, I am asking whether or not the $20 bill is real or counterfeit. If it's counterfeit, then we can't use it to do our laundry, buy our mother some flowers, donate $20 to the homeless, or even score some bitchin' ganja.
So... the allegation is that my use of the article in the NY Latino Journal as a reliable source is “willfully improper”. I am curious to know which policy you believe I am breaking. To date I have been called out for violating WP:QUESTIONABLE and WP:Verifiability. Both of these policies deal with whether or not information within an article on the Mighty Wik can be traced back to a reliable source, which in this case would be whether or not the NY Latino Journal is a reliable source. Based on the way the reply above is phrased I am going to infer that the editor accepts the NY Latino Journal is a reliable source, so these two policies aren't the issue. It has also been alleged that the edit I am trying to make violates WP:BALASPS. This however is a misapplication as that policy deals with giving appropriate weight and balance to various aspects of the subject so that you don’t, for example, end up with an entire section on the fact that PAC didn’t brush his teeth before he went to bed at night. So again, which specific policy am I violating that makes my edit “willfully improper”?
As to your response that I “failed” to address "a well-researched and well-documented response":
1) As to the "inadequacy" of sourcing, the information that there are critics who believe that PAC failed to win over the masses is attributable to NY Latino Journal. If that source is reliable then the quote about the critics is reliable.
2) The fact is the “highly detailed program which Albizu and the Nationalists did develop and advocate” failed to win over the masses. This is shown by the drubbing that Albizu and the Nationalists repeatedly experienced at the polls. The best results that I have able to find for them is when they won 2.6% of the vote in 1932. It is further evidenced by the support Albizu received when he ordered the uprisings in 1950 and a grand total of 4.8e-5% of the population rushed to his side, a percentage so small that it is best written in scientific notation.
3) Albizu’s 25 years in jail and the surveillance he suffered absolutely were instrumental in his failure to win over the masses. But this was the result of his poorly thought out strategy to achieve Puerto Rican independence through violent means, means that failed to generate any significant popular support.
With respect to the reading list that you added (for the third time) on this talk page, did you use all of them in your "well-researched and well-documented response"? Just wondering as you only cited one (not that cites are ever required on talk pages)... Hammersbach ( talk) 17:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
There has been a lot of chatter about this issue so far but no clear direction other than objection to the use of the statement "His critics say that he "failed to attract ..." when there is no factual verification who its author is so we can judge his authority as a reliable source. As such, I would like to ask for a show of hands and corresponding conclusion/supporting comments on this one objection: Should the statement "His critics say that he 'failed to attract and offer concrete solutions to the struggling poor and working class people and thus was unable to spread the revolution to the masses' and credited to Juan Antonio Ocasio Rivera in the NY LATINO JOURNAL, be kept or deleted? (note the question is not about whether or not the statement is true, but whther it can be kept in teh context of coming from JAOR as a reliable source). Please sign your name under the appropriate choice below:
Thank you for participating (If anyone has another process than this Consensus process feel free to share it!). Mercy11 ( talk) 19:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
A new editor (or at least a new account) named TheMakerGuy has asserted an unusual point.
As we all know: Pedro Albizu Campos was the president of the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico, the first Puerto Rican to graduate from Harvard and from Harvard Law School, and imprisoned for 25 years for promoting the independence of Puerto Rico. His nationality was listed as Puerto Rican in hundreds of FBI files, some of which are cited in this article. Hundreds more articles, books, monographs and doctoral dissertations state that Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican.
However, TheMakerGuy does not feel that Albizu Campos' nationality was Puerto Rican. He bases this on two subjective points:
I pointed out to TheMakerGuy that the Wiki article Nationality states that, in several areas of the world, the term "nationality" can be based on ethnicity. TheMakerGuy ignored this and reverted me, because "75.8% of Puerto Rico is White."
I'm taking the time to respond in a calm and deliberate manner, because I don't think TheMakerGuy intended this as a racist insult. However TheMakerGuy, please understand that when you equate being "White" with being "American," you are making a deeply offensive statement.
TheMakerGuy, you are also mistakenly conflating ethnicity with race. Those are two different things.
With respect to Puerto Rican nationality - the insular racial composition (White, Black, Taino/Arawak) has no bearing whatsoever on the nationality issue. The political designation ("Commonwealth") is also not dispositive. The Irish people did not stop being Irish, and Indians did not stop being Indian, despite centuries of British domination. The Vietnamese did not stop being Vietnamese during the occupation of French Indochina.
Pedro Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican. His nationality is Puerto Rican. Don't take my word for it: read his birth certificate. Read the hundreds of FBI Files available at the Centro de Estudio Puertorriqueños (119th Street and 3rd Avenue) in NYC. Read the hundreds of articles, books, monographs and doctoral dissertations which state that Albizu Campos was Puerto Rican. Read his own book La Conciencia Nacional Puertorriqueña, (Cerro del Agua, Mexico: Siglo Veintiuno Editores, S.A., 1977). Read his wife's autobiography: Albizu Campos y la Independencia de Puerto Rico, by Laura Albizu Campos Meneses (Puerto Rico: Publicaciones Puertorriqueñas, Inc., 2007). Read his New York Times obituary from April 1965. You can also read any/all of the following:
Sarason ( talk) 05:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Let's not loose sight of a crucial point. Albizu Campos was NOT jailed because he espoused independence for Puerto Rico. He was jailed because he espoused armed, violent insurrection against the government. The nationalists felt that the solution to the independence issue lay in guns, bombs, murder, and violent overthrow of the insular government. Many other people, including the PIP, argued forcefully for Puerto Rican independence, but argued for a LEGAL process through the election of a legislature and governor who could then pressure the American Congress to take up the matter. That's how PR gained autonomy from Spain, and that is the hope even now. Albizu Campos was, I hate to say, a terrorist, despite his breathtaking intelligence and talents; his radicalism robbed Puerto Rico of the benefits of those talents.
The lead paragraph incredibly gives Albizu Campos credit for founding the Knights of Columbus. However, the Wiki article on the K of C gives the founding date as 1882, nine years before he was born. That the K of C was active before he was born is easily verified, as in this volume: Acts of the Connecticut Legislature, 1889 (see page 927), containing amendments to the K of C charter from two years before he was born. The tale that he founded the Knights of Columbus is only slightly more believable than an assertion that he sailed with Columbus in the first place. Plazak ( talk) 15:46, 19 April 2015 (UTC)