This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 19 |
When reading this article, I noticed there was a bit about the activists' questioning of psychological harm, but I saw very little info on any actual scientifice research on the topic (I think the only evidence was described as "anecdotal"). Anyone know of any info on this? I don't happen to be a psychologist/victim of pedophilia myself, but I would be rather surprised if there was much data lying around saying it produced no effects.
This page needs a lot of work to get it up to scratch re our POV policies. Merging into anti-pedophile activism would be a start, SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC) SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have asked why the template was placed, what the problems are and what needs to be done to rectify the problems. Squeakbox has become rude (above) and Dpeterson reverted without comment. I don't see what can be done at this point. Joie de Vivre 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys, guys, guys!! Joie de Vivre is not one of the heads of the hydra come back again. The template is still there, but there's no evidence of the POV pushers around. Talk is all archived, so there's nothing to see (except 12 pages of archives -- which indicates there's been a lot of fighting). Joie, the editors at this and other pedophilia related pages can get testy sometimes because of the endless trolling that's gone on here and on other pages for a long time. SqueakBox and DPeterson talk can both be argumentative, which has been an asset under the prior circumstances, and will be again next time another troll comes along. I think you know that several relentless POV pushing editors have been banned indefinitely, as well as sockpuppets of those users who've been back to deliberately cause trouble. People are taking a deep breath, but there's still a lot of history to overcome, and a defensive stance is sometimes hard to let go. There are a lot of issues that were challenged left on the page. The existence of the page itself was roundly contested. There are other pages that need work too. It's hard to get to every problem, everywhere at once. I do not blame them for not wanting to outline all the POV issues that remain right now--bleah--but I also don't think it's wrong of you to ask why the template is still there but nothing is going on with the page. Now I hope I haven't pissed off both sides by getting in the middle here, but we all need each other and it would be nice not to fight for a change and finally get these articles cleaned up. - Jmh123 03:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Come on! What good logical reason is there to merge this with the anti article? We're talking different movements, here. It's already big enough with the (disputed) merge with the history article, and the anti page is barely a stub, with lots of work to do, IMO. (f a b i a n) 15:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion about the TotallyDisputed tag. Having read the discussion, it sounds like the problem is resolved; i.e. this article still contains a history of issues that had been challenged in previous archived discussions and those issues haven't been addressed. If that is the case, then the TotallyDisputed tag should stay. Perhaps someone could go through the archives (ugh, what a lot of work that looks like) and list the remaining issues that had been challenged, so that they might be addressed. - Amatulic 20:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
**Please revert your 3RR violation. Personal discussion does not belong on this page**
A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus. (f a b i a n) 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Fabian is another SPA with contribs dating back to Junne 5, SqueakBox 16:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus.
Personally, I believe that the articles should be kept apart, as per the same reasons suggested in the last discussion I found on this issue. (f a b i a n) 10:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. -- Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of bickering and infighting going on here; which is not productive. I think it would be better if we all were to focus our energy on fixing the article instead.
Part of the problem is that what needs to happen is not clear. I think a good first step would be to identify the problems that need to be fixed. Joie de Vivre 20:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
There were a number of individuals who were listed as being supporters of pedophilia, without supporting references. Unsourced assertions of this nature should not be allowed to remain for one moment, regardless of whether they are true. I am investigating the truthfulness of these claims and will add them back if sources are found. Joie de Vivre 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
We have 101 and only 96 are turning up. Can someone better at these things than me please fix it? SqueakBox 21:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Why should we do this in the opening couple of paragraphs? The DSM bears little relation to activism, and it just seems like we're listing "negative things" against pedophile activism, because we foolishly think that it "balances" the article (when it actually introduces subjectivity galore) 153.19.178.28 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Is DP willing to discuss why exactly my edits are inferior? 153.19.178.28 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, all. So, it looks like we actually got somewhere in the section titled #Let's fix the article as far as determining what to do; we had several editors in agreement that bringing this article to NPOV was a good first step. The momentum was lost before any changes were made, so let's get it going again. Currently the {{totally disputed}} tag is still up, but we haven't identified what content should be changed in order to bring this article to NPOV. I actually don't see much that is explicitly POV; the material is presented in terms of what the activists do, say, and believe, i.e. "this is what they do", "this is what they believe". It is not used as a platform for espousing or legitimizing personal views as far as I see. However, Squeakbox had advocated for including the template, so I thought that perhaps he could outline the things that need changing most. It's not good to leave an article hanging around in a state of dispute, so let's fix it. Joie de Vivre 13:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
"David.L "Dave" Riegel is mentioned - but his home page ( http://www.shfri.net/dlr/) is not linked to his name. Should it be? If so, could someone who knows how do so? 24.229.103.183 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think this article puts too much emphasis on Non-Abstinent Childlove and it's opponents. Non-Abstinent Childlove advocates "consensual" sexual relationships between adults and children. However, the article largely ignores Abstinent Childlove, which opposes child pornography and sexual relationships between adults and children. Instead, Abstinent Childlovers work towards social tolerance and repealing laws against fantasy-oriented activities, such as lolicon. There should also be mention of Anti-Childlove, which opposes social tolerance and fantasy-oriented activities. They usually express the opinion that all Childlovers pose a danger to children, regardless of their "stated" views on abstinence. These topics may be difficult to research, as different groups use different terms.{{subst:unsigned|68.1.124.88
Please comment here on this subject.
So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. -- Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC) (copied from above by DPeterson talk 22:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC))
The result was no consensus to merge Pro- and Anti-pedophile activism. -- Jmh123
No consensus was achieved on this discussion. One can find a new vote for merging the two articles into Pedophilia below
Well, as to this article containing material on anti-pedophile activism (enough to justify not having an a-p article), thats your fringe point of view. As far as I can tell, the article was started and consensually maintained with the aim of documenting one movement, not two.
May I ask why you think it is "POV" in one direction, to have an article which documents a notable movement that opposes the said direction? Samantha Pignez 22:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
If I counted correctly, this is how the final vote count looks (each side could have one extra tally, depending on Will Beback's vote):
4 (or 5) Yes vs. 6 (or 7) No
Homologeo 09:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment - It's a bold and interesting proposal. Procedure requires that before a proper discussion and "vote" can take place, the appropriate tags should be placed on the appropriate articles. An archive of the discussion will remain on the talk page which is designated for that discussion. Unless you're just getting opinions before starting that discussion. My opinion is that it is definitely worth considering. - Jmh123 16:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment. The combined article would be quite long. A good first step, which may be helpful regardless of the outcome of the merger decision, would be to trim down excess material from both articles. There's plenty of unsourced material, and even some sourced material may need to be removed to ensure balance. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
'COMMENT'I am in agreement with Jmh123. I think we should proceed with this NEW proposal in a formal manner and see what develops. OK? Next question, is how to do that? If someone knows and can start the ball rolling, that would be great. DPeterson talk 22:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, ball is rolling. - Jmh123 22:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus, but the merger was carried out nonetheless. - Jmh123 17:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Bringing XavierVE's proposal to this new discussion:
This topic is not analogous to topics of racism or abortion and the individual making that comparison is not doing a valid audit of how controversial topics are handled on Wikipedia. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking - There is not the "anti-smoking article" and the "pro-smoking article", there is an article about smoking, period, with both viewpoints contained therein. Why, why on any earth that there is even a pedophile activism article or a pro-pedophile activism or an anti-pedophile activism... when it should simply be a sub-category under the pedophilia article (which, btw, is a shorter article than the pro-pedophile activism article... by far) is beyond the pale. The vast majority of the information in both the pro- and anti- articles is mostly trivial, unworthy of inclusion into Wikipedia in general. Both pro- and anti- should be merged into the main pedophilia article with most of the non-notability of these articles (vastly contributed by now banned members who are pedophile activists themselves) excised from the project. XavierVE 11:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
'Agree' The three articles cover the same topics...see discussion above for me details. DPeterson talk 22:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, merge. This entry states that this is a "homosexual issue," and I've also seen the argument repeatedly in various articles to wit, "homosexuality was once a DSM category but now it isn't; pedophilia is next." The first statement appears to ignore the fact that some pedophiles seek sexual contact with adolescent children of the opposite sex, and others with very young pre-adolescent children, even toddlers. The article puts a lot of emphasis on homosexual attraction between adults and same-sex teenagers, particularly men and boys. The title "Pro-pedophile activism" implies support of all forms and types of pedophilia, and this entry could be construed as presenting a distorted notion of what pedophilia is by couching it in such limited terms and framing it as a homosexual issue. Isn't most of this article really about activism in support of legalizing a very specific form of pedophilic attraction, as opposed to some kind of Pro-pedophile activist movement in general? The Pro-pedophile activism entry should be pruned considerably prior to merging, and clarified when merged. - Jmh123 23:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - Xavier's example is insignificant. We have articles on pro and anti smoking campaigns and legislation. Whilst these are equivalent to activism, smoking is equivalent to pedophilia. This pattern is replicated throughout wikipedia, in that we have an article documenting a highly prevalent subject such as pedophilia, and articles that describe for and against positions, based on their notability. Whilst the pro article is just about the right size for its notability, the anti article needs massive expansion.
May I also add that we should not be aiming to "downsize the target", as DPeterson seems to be attempting at his own exhaustion. However unsettling we find a subject, we must afford it an article who's size equates to its notability. For pro pedophile activism, this has been achieved (as our many sources show). For anti pedophile activism, this is not the case.
And lastly, I will reply to Xavier's argument that "pedophile activists" have infiltrated wikipedia. Look, Xavier. As a wikipedia editor ans supporter of NPOV enforcement, it is not my concern who is editing, and what their personal opinions are. I am concerned with what has been produced, and from the look of it, our current article is fair and balanced - if anything slightly biased towards your lobby. I am all for specialist information being integrated into this article, and I look forward to working with people who know what they're talking about. Samantha Pignez 23:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Jmh123 suggested I elaborate my reasons here and not refer to previous comments. OK.
Your interpretation of the pedophilia definition in the DSM is terribly inadequate, as it doesn't imply activity. Using this as a reason to merge articles is dishonest and irrelevant. The DSM is controversial, for the right reasons. Consider the claims made against transgender people. Barry Jameson 23:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - First of all, when there is a proposal such as this, the discussion is supposed to take place on the talk page for the article that the others are being merged into. That the discussion is taking place on the talk page for "pro-pedophile activism" suggests that the supporters of this proposal are more interested in dealing with this article, which they apparently have a problem with, rather than making any constructive changes to the article on pedophilia.
Xavier's opinion that the information in the pro-pedophile activism article is "non-notable" or "trivial" is irrelevant, as is the relevancy of the article to the general public, to an extent. The very purpose of the Wikipedia project is to provide a scope of information that would not be possible in traditional sources, such as print encyclopedias. Much of the information documented in the pro-pedophile activism article HAS, in fact, been reported in the media at various points. Finally, it is unlikely that this article would've been the topic of such extensive discussion on its talk page were this subject simply "non-notable." If Wikipedia can have a page dedicated to every known fictional character in the Star Wars universe, for instance, it can certainly have a page dedicated to this documented series of people, groups, and events in the real world.
Xavier has made his intentions for this proposal clear; there's not even the pretense that the merging of these articles would in any way provide a more clear or extensive overview of the topics at hand. The intention is to have the content of the pro-pedophile activism article "trimmed to... ten percent of [its] current size." Whichever side of any hypothetical issue you are on, the fact that the intention here is to outright censor such a large amount of valuable, hard to come by information currently available on Wikipedia should be unacceptable to everyone.
Finally--and this should not be interpreted as a personal attack on Von Erck--this move is consistent with the efforts of his group to censor information related to pedophile activism on the web. Von Erck no doubt sees this article as the next target on his list of blogs, websites, and other resources which through sheer intimidation he has attempted to have removed. That there is an actual debate on this topic suggested here and demonstrated by the documentation of groups involved in a "movement"--regardless of its alleged "notability"--must irk him to no end (pun INTENDED =) ). I am not saying that Von Erck cannot contribute and offer his own two cents on this topic, as all Wikipedians with their own diverse points of view can. But the idea that he doesn't have a thinly-veiled agenda here is ridiculous. Additionally, the fact that he sees fit to criticize an article he alleges was created by biased "infiltrators," when his own strongly-biased viewpoint is no secret, is equally ridiculous. Apparently he sees himself as being the only person with a biased point of view that should be allowed to edit regarding this topic. And his point of view is decidedly different from the unfavorable view surrounding this topic held by the general public. He is essentially actively involved in undermining the activities of the subjects discussed in this article. He is more biased regarding this topic than your average person and certainly just as biased as any activist “infiltrator” who has contributed. So the obvious conclusion here is that the intention is to censor information he wishes were not available rather than make constructive changes to Wikipedia regarding this topic.
Also, regarding DPeterson's claims: the "DSM-IV diagnosis" is irrelevant in this particular debate. The article on "pedophilia" discusses the medical concept of the condition, whereas this article documents people and groups that claim to be part of a movement. The concepts described in these articles are distinctly different in scope, and trying to merge them would create a mess. Ultimately, most non medical-related information would be removed from the pedophilia article (as it should be) and we would be left with all information on activism being lost (no doubt the goal of the supporters of this proposal).
If you take a look at the article for Deafness, for instance, you will find that all of the medical-related information on the condition is in the "Deafness" article, while most of the socially-relevant information is in the "Deaf culture" article. As should be obvious, the scope of information related to the medical definition of deafness and the sociology associated with the condition are vastly different, thus separate articles are necessary. The same concept can also be observed with the separate articles for "Autism" and the "Autistic rights movement," and the same would logically apply with pedophilia. Your view of the "notability" or legitimacy of the movement is irrelevant toward deciding whether a separate article on it should exist or not. The movement exists, thus the article on it exists. The information is out there, therefore Wikipedia, in its mission to make available the "sum of all human knowledge," has an interest in documenting it.
Mike D78 05:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
'Oppose' - My thoughts on this involve the length the "pedophilia" article will reach if merged with these other sections. As the "pedophilia" article continues to evolve, we will find the article needing to be subdivided, etc., and the material of the "Pro-pedophile activism" and "Anti-pedophile activism" will seem prime candidates for being segmented off into articles of their own. If for no other reason, this seems sufficient to keep this material autonomous. Welland R 10:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose both types of mergers proposed, for right now anyways. The reasoning for not merging the pro- and anti- articles into a single article dealing with "Pedophile activism" or "Pedophilia-related activism" is explained in a section above. As for the newly proposed merger with the general topic of Pedophilia, this would not be a smart move for Wikipedia, as both kinds of pedophile activism are related to yet still notably different from pedophila itself. The article on pedophilia deals with the actual phenomenon, and largely focuses on the mainstream medical definition and study of pedophilia. The pro- and anti- articles, on the other hand, focus on the efforts and arguments various activists put forth in order to promote a specific set of values, whatever that may be. These movements deserve seperate articles, just like any other kind of activism. Besides, it's pointless to argue that pedophile activism is not notable enough for Wikipedia, as this movement has been around for decades now, and has a substantial amount of legitimate exposure and litterature behind it. Whether people agree or disagree with particular viewpoints expressed by pro- and anti- pedophile activists, those ideas should be discussed (in a clear, concise, and NPOV manner) on Wikipedia, as long as they're legit and prominent enough. Finally, merging the two activism articles into the "Pedophilia" article would indeed make the resulting article too large and confusing. The focus should right now be on bringing each of the two articles in question to Wikipedia standards, and not on mergers that would create more problems for readers and editors alike. Homologeo 11:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose as before, and for similar reasons to Homologeo. -- Coroebus 12:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
After five days, the votes have been cast at no consensus, with very little chance of the proposal going through. Personally, I think a couple more days will do it. 86.131.41.244 00:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In response to Dybryd: The point of merging the articles is to eliminate the duplication. Keeping the articles separate requires marked duplication of material to keep each article NPOV. DPeterson talk 00:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
He was arguing against the grubby tabloid efforts of wiki admins in blocking users simply for what they are or what they believe in. I don't think that he was arguing that the policies do not exist. Samantha Pignez 22:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Samantha! Like her, I see absolutely no reason to be suspicious of new accounts that only post on one contentious topic! In order to assume good faith, we must systematically overlook obvious bias! Femaleperson Notapedo 03:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
As can be seen from previous edits to the article, an editor is attempting to insert the unsupported, unsourced claim that the DSM implies pedophilia in almost every child molester. This claim has been inserted in different places, removed and then reinstated without any other justification but "deleted in error". Whats more, the DSM is adequately (and accurately) covered in the criticism section, yet the section which is being targeted concerns the claims of pedophile activists. This kind of annoys me - the creeping, malignant implantation of unsourced, subjective opinions, supposedly to prove ad nauseum that "we don't agree with them, REALLY". Very poor article construction. 213.239.218.176 01:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
'Keep For the reasons I've stated above. DPeterson talk 01:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete from the pro claims section, as per my justification. I modified the vote, since I do not oppose the DSM's mention in criticism 213.239.218.176 01:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep as per DPeterson, SqueakBox 03:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep as per DPeterson. If random IP's are going to vote, I might as well too. XavierVE 07:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete this reference; it is unsourced and inaccurate. The facts simply do not prove that "nearly all child molestors" are motivated by pedophilia in the strict DSM definition of the term. The reference is also slopily written, as well; an exact figure would be much more preferable, but this sentence probably doesn't belong in the various places that one user has been attempting to insert it, anyway. Mike D78 04:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep per XavierVE. This IP and Mike D78 is obviously a sock puppet. These editors have been here for some time, from their contribs. Its silly of Wikipedia policies to entertain sock puppets. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete - misinformative and out of context! Samantha Pignez 23:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The Pedophilia article contains far, far too much information that belongs on this page. I've proposed that the relevant sections be merged here. Exploding Boy 06:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Information removed from the main article can be found here
I've proposed that this page be renamed Pedophilia activism, to encompass both pro- and anti- views, as one would expect. Exploding Boy 06:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
You mean you're going to list the Pro-pedophile activism page for deletion? This is becoming confusing; can we do one thing at a time? Exploding Boy 17:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe there is a reason, which is why I advise SqueakBox not to do it. Exploding Boy 17:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
No, a dispute is not valid reason to delete an article. You may want to read the deletion policy. Exploding Boy 18:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is for discussing the proposed merging of the pro and anti articles into a single article about activism. I would encourage users who seem obsessed with the idea of deleting/merging this article into the pedophilia article to drop the issue. The idea has been discussed to death, rejected, and even carried out in defiance of typical protocol, and the result was judged by an admin to be unacceptable. So please, let's move on.
As for merging the pro and anti articles, I think that is unnecessary at this time, as the anti article was still farily new and had plenty of room for expansion. Theoretically, an anti-pedophile activism article could include the history of anti-pedophile sentiment, such as the 80s daycare satanic abuse scandals, laws that have been passed and organizations that have been formed in response to high profile events, etc. Again, the anti-pedophile activism article was created fairly recently, and it was created for a purpose, so we should give interested users time to work on it before we scrap it.
Thoughts? Mike D78 23:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, would you care to discuss what exactly it is you disagree with concerning what I have written? Also, I have restored the anti-pedophilia activism page to its former version, as there was no consensus to redirect it. I would encourage users to focus on how we can improve the anti-pedophilia activism article to make it just as long as this one. Again, it was created only recently, and to delete it now would be silly. I think it's a relevant article that deserves some work. Mike D78 00:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
This is currently listed at WP:RM, but there appears to be no poll as yet, and no prospect of consensus if one were to be taken. Feel free to set one up, but it's a waste of time IMO, especially in view of the failed proposal to merge with Anti-pedophile activism (currently a redirect, see Talk:Anti-pedophile activism#What happened to the article? and elsewhere in that talk page). Interesting discussion, and I commend the restraint of some editors! Hang in there. Andrewa 00:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
All editors: please use article talk pages for discussion of the relevant article(s) only. Take other discussion to user talk pages or email. Thank you. Exploding Boy 23:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This article fails on notability grounds. While individuals such as Lindsay Ashford have shown notability on the project, and while certain groups also demonstarte notability (like NAMBLA) the concept of a Pro-pedophile activist movement does not, IMO, meet our notability guidelines (whereas the anti-pedophile activism movement actually does so much more) and what notabilty it has can easily be included in a short section in pedophile (as the movement does have enough notability to warrant mention there), SqueakBox 00:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. Let's develop a new strategy. Ignore these multiple proposals (bar the vote) and concentrate on building this article. Hopefully at least 50% of the editors will have some semblence of neutrality. Samantha Pignez 23:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
If one would note, a few of the sources for this "article" have been removed from the internet period, notably the "debate guide" blog (And everyone knows blogs don't meet Sourcing standards here) and a few of the other weird blogs that banned SPA's put into this article. But more importantly... about 60% of this article is sourced to one source... IPCE.info. Each IPCE reference was also implanted into this article by banned SPA accounts as well. If you don't believe me, check the edit history.
Please do explain how IPCE.info is a valid source by Wikipedian standards. It's a poorly coded website whose content is propagated by one person. Even the articles IPCE hosts that they claim come from specific newsletters, there's no actual evidence that these newsletters A. Existed and B. contained the content claimed. Should this article survive the pending AfD, I would think Wikipedian editors should examine the material laid down by now-banned SPA's and especially anything sourced to IPCE... or any of the sources in general, a few of them don't even exist anymore. XavierVE 01:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A previous discussion only half a month ago concerning the merging of the pro and anti pedophile activism articles resulted in no consensus, with the majority of users disaproving of the idea. Rather than putting our efforts into further debate over this proposal so soon, why not discuss how we can improve the anti-pedophile activism article so that it can become just as comprehensive as this one? I have proposed some ideas at the talk page for that article concerning how we can do just that.
It seems to me that activism regarding these topics represents two different subjects that deserve their own articles. We need criticism and controversy regarding pro-pedophile activism to be kept in this article, but anti-pedophile activism consists of more than simply criticism of pro-pedophile activism. Anti-pedophile sentiment is not generally in response to pro-pedophile activism, but is often in response to high-profile events that provoke public reaction and new laws. The anti-pedophile activism article should document the history of anti-pedophile sentiment, just as this article documents the history of its topic.
The fact is, organisations like PJ were not formed in response to NAMBLA, etc. Anti-pedophile activism has its own, generally unrelated history which should be kept seperate from this article and documented in its own entry. Mike D78 10:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
You certainly made a lot of little changes to this article, including the removal of an entire section. Why don't we discuss things things first; particularly, if you felt that paragraph needs to be integrated elsewhere, let's figure out how to do that before deleting the information. Mike D78 21:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Some of the edits were clearly problematic, especially the removal of a section that dares to admit that some official research supports some activist positions. As for Peterson, he has to learn that we discuss before reverting to a new version that someone is contesting on a talk page. That is the done thing here. Samantha Pignez 23:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)Today I have edited through to the end of the "decline" section. I have been careful to change no meaning, and removed only a few words that I considered to be POV, and one unsourced statement that seemed to me to be of no vital importance. My main concern was to correct the formatting, and to improve the style of writing, which was, though well done, apparently not the work of a native speaker of English. I'd appreciate it if this work was not reverted wholesale, as it was tedious and detailed work. In my mind, this is the heart of the article, and is a NPOV history of the movement. The remainder of the article is more problematic, but I'm not going there today. - Jmh123 19:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Jmh recently deleted a section listing individuals that supported and opposed pedophile activism. This was probably a good move; I would imagine these individuals probably have nuanced views and might not wish to be identified in this particular way. However, I think some of this information could be integrated elsewhere within the article. Individuals who explicitly identify themselves as opponents or supporters, such as Ashford, should certainly be mentioned, and I think we can find places for some of the quotes of people like Califia, Green, Levine, Paglia, Schlessinger, Echols, etc. Directly quoting individuals would eliminate most of the problem of alledgedly POV wording, as long as the quotes are placed in the proper context. Mike D78 06:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
These two paragraphs are not sourced and do not appear to be related to the notion of decline. They appear to me to be somewhat random insertions made after the main section was written. May I delete them? I have no objection to a subsequent restatement or a new section including this information, if sourced. - Jmh123 18:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Pedophile advocacy turned in the mid-90s to the Internet. In 1995, BoyChat, a message board for "boylovers", was established. In 1997, participants on BoyChat and other online resources formed Free Spirits, an umbrella organization with the mission of raising money and providing secure Internet hosting services. The Montreal Ganymede Collective was formed in Montreal by Free Spirits members in 1998 as a forum for "boylovers" to meet in the real world. In early 2001, the first "boylove" broadcast media source, Sure Quality Internet Radio, was founded by Jeffrey Gold in Florida, USA. citation needed
In Germany, the Krumme 13 organization, founded in 1993 and dissolved in 2003, stirred up massive and mostly negative press coverage in the years 2001 through 2005. In 2005, krumme13.org won a penal court case that a textual depiction of a love relationship between an eleven-year-old boy and a thirty-year-old man in the Pedosexual Resources Directory was not child pornography. citation needed
Is totally POV as it describes sonme very POV beliefs with none of the opposition to contrast. We need more criticism of pro pedophile activist beliefs if this article is to become NPOV and this is a classic example of it not beiong here. lets make an effort to source those who debunk the unusual claims of the pro ped activists, SqueakBox 19:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this section as it appeared to me to be overkill. There are already lists of organizations, external links, references, and footnotes. These were simply links to more articles about the subject, none particularly definitive or making points that were different from the main article as far as I could tell. They appeared to me to be lazy additions rather than thoughtful incorporations. If they contain information not otherwise present, they can be worked into the text and footnoted. - Jmh123 20:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to respond to each of these seperately:
Mike D78 03:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
"The complete removal of information regarding the goals of pedophile activists in the introduction" was done because the info was unsourced. "We need to leave in the part about the distinction between pedophiles and child molesters" shouldnt be here but in pedophilia, IMO. Lots of refs is no bad thing, SqueakBox 20:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What about something along these lines (assuming the "jump to" links in the main article work correctly with a scroll box):
Mike D78 22:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits to and other statements in the "questioning science" sections refer to studies that activists "may cite," but provide no reference. "May cite" is...not encyclopedic. Beyond the pages of Wikipedia, where are these arguments/citations made? - Jmh123 21:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
"To counter developmental arguments that children cannot give informed consent, for example, David L. Riegel (2000) stated in his book Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers, 'Anyone who holds to the idea that a young boy cannot give or withhold informed consent has never taken such a boy shopping for new sneakers' (p. 38)." How does this illustrate informed consent? Because they are eager to spend your money to get something they want, and have a preference as to the brand? I don't get it. It's a loooooong way from choosing sneakers to choosing sex. Proferring gifts is a known method of obtaining consent, but I don't think that's the intended meaning here. - Jmh123 21:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. It is enshrined in our legal system that young children cannot give consent; period. Wanting sneakers has nothing to do with informed consent. A want is not consent. DPeterson talk 22:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
That quote does come off as a little confusing, but it's valuable because of the fact that it's from a published book on the subject. So I dunno, it would be a lot easier if someone owned the book and could maybe provide a better, more self-explanatory quote. Or maybe we just need to find another quote from another source altogether to illustrate this idea? Mike D78 22:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I rearranged the sections in order to put the perspectives and scientific claims sections together, as I believe they are related. I also think there's a lot of duplication between the two, and it's easier to see when arranged this way. Although they are themed differently, which makes doing this more difficult, I think the article as a piece of writing and as an encyclopedia article would be much stronger if these two sections were shorter and more compact, with repetition of points/studies eliminated.
I deleted the short section on "the movement's use of scientific papers" as the entire section is about scientific claims, and this paragraph simply states what the entire section demonstrates. The Fagan et. al. study is cited earlier.
I have reduced the "Questioning assumptions" to actual examples of scientific studies. Whereas the insertion of reference to Ashford articles was well-meaning, in response to a criticism, the citations do not meet the criticism, as stated above.
I integrated the articles listed under "media and academic articles" into the reference list, except for one dead link. - Jmh123 02:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks--I just made a couple of changes in the lead to tighten it up. Naming a couple of internet groups as examples wouldn't hurt. I just thought the Ipce sentence didn't flow right with the rest. - Jmh123 03:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Because of the sensitivity regarding editing this entry, I don't want to get into those two sections I mentioned with a heavy hand, but I wish you would look it over, Mike D78, and see if you can see any way to consolidate or shorten these sections. I realize that each is different, and each has a different theme, but there is a lot of similarity and repetition nonetheless, especially when some of the points are also made in other parts of the article. Thanks. - Jmh123 03:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here are some thoughts I have regarding the improvement of this article. My apologies again for not being able to devote time to the agreed upon changes to this article recently. l haven't begun implementing any of the following ideas in earnest yet, but I'll create a temp page demonstrating any major edits I consider so others can provide input.
I'll see about getting some of these things started in the next few days. Mike D78 08:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I take issue with the inclusion of anti-gay groups such as NARTH and CWA among the opponents of pedophile activism. In fact, such groups do not at all direct their energies or their rhetoric toward opposing the legislative or social goals of pedophile activists (you don't hear a peep out of them about the age of consent or what-have-you -- on the contrary many religious conservatives support early marriage for girls).
They simply use the spectre of pedophilia as a rhetorical weapon against gay-rights groups. In fact, in one sense their goals and NAMBLA's are exactly the same: they falsely portray pedophile activism as part of the gay-rights movement in order to further an unrelated agenda.
So, cutting them from the list.
DanB†DanD 18:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Without commenting on this history, which is obviously a sore point, conflating these two movements is problematic. The article at the time I first got involved seemed at times to be reducing pedophilia to a homosexual issue. It's one thing to discuss connections between the movements; another entirely to appear to be obscuring the scope of pedophilia by reducing it to an issue of consensual relations between same sex partners, one of whom is just a little below the age of consent. Some pedophiles are interested in children of the opposite sex. Some pedophiles are interested in very young children. The article needs to reflect that, as I believe it is now well on the way to doing. If pro-pedophile activism does not encompass all types of pedophilia, then the article needs to make that clear, and the title should be changed accordingly. - Jmh123 15:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is disgusting and needs to be deleted, this should not be given the time of day on wikipedia. It is just plain wrong and the sources are bottom of the barrel rubbish. 89.240.154.160 19:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
So now they have "pro-pedophile activism"? What's next, pro-ruining-some-poor-little-kids-whole-life-for-the-sake-of-my-perverted-sexual-desires-activism? Sick. This sort of crap shouldn't be on the internet. 63.245.145.113 10:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, "no consensus" is the standard declaration for procedural votes that don't pass in a supportive manner. A 6-19 vote against deleting this article is about as much of a statement against an idea as you are going to encounter on Wikipedia. Mike D78 01:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
We've told people that their rights are held high, that they can do what they want to do. In fact, the whole idea of free sexuality is ruining the world. Pro-abortion is ending a child's life, well before the child has a voice. Silencing a voice. Pro-pedophile activism is just as horrifying. - Yancyfry 04:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody removed the tag. Okayty, I've reduced excess content and its now the same length as anti pedophile activism. Please dont revert without readding the tag, ideally dont revert anyway as what is here now is sufficent, SqueakBox 00:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Well at least you readded the tag but why revert my good edits. All this stuff is unnecessary and this article shopuld be shorter than the anti for notability reasons. Please give an explanmation for your revert here, SqueakBox 01:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, the fact that you are encouraging me to have this kind of a discussion with you yet again is disruptive, and I clearly have better things I could be doing right now in relation to Wikipedia. Furthermore, the fact that you never even address 99% of the points I make in general makes me question the point of discussing anything with you. I guess others will see how unreasonable you're being, though. But really, you make snide comments toward me like "if that is the ebst you cvan come up with" as if you see this as some kind of a competition to be won or something. The evident emotion you bring to this discussion almost prevents you from typing a coherent sentence in response to me.
I'm not here to constantly engage in pointless arguments, Squeak, especially if you are not even going to consider and address most of the concerns I bring up. The reverting of significant deletions of information, like you are doing, without any kind of justification beforehand, only serves to provoke these kind of arguments. You insist that I should give an explanation for reverting this article back to its previous version, but you yourself failed to provide a legitimate reason or have any kind of a discussion before your massive edit. The fact that I'm the one that's being put on the defensive here, that I'm the one that is told to justify maintaining the previously agreed upon version of this article, is ludicrous. You are the one that needs significant support before you delete 99% of an article.
This isn't about preserving some "precious corner of wikipedia," it's about maintaining encyclopedic information, and if you have any delusions about making this into some kind of personal battleground for you against others then you seriously need to reconsider what Wikipedia is about.
There was indeed consensus to keep this article, Squeak; the official declaration of "no consensus" is in reference to the proposal to delete the article. I don't know how much more simply I can explain this to you, Squeak. There was no consensus to delete. So stop making edits that are essentially tantamount to the deletion of this article. If you do so again, I will have no choice but to consider admin action. Mike D78 03:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The article really does not need all that extra material. Let's just focus on content and not persons. NPOV requires balance. The article in its "slim" version does just that quite well. Other material can be found in other articles. Furthermore, I don't see consensus regarding the longer version. I do see disagreement. DPeterson talk 00:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As much as I don't want to be a part of this pointless confrontation that is being reignited yet again, I want to remind all editors participating in the editing of this article that drastic changes to an article usually need to be discussed on the Talk Page first. Considering that pro-pedophile activism has proved to be such a controversial topic on Wikipedia, discussion is definitely needed in order to reach consensus and avoid redundant edit warring. Deletion of almost everything but the intro can by no means be considered a "bold" or a "good" edit. It is tantamount to the deletion of the article itself. Although some might think that is indeed what should happen, Wikipedia prides itself on the collaborative effort that goes into making this such a successful and reliable project. Thus, because no consensus was reached on whether the majority of the text of the article should be completely deleted, I have reverted the last edit that did this. Please do not delete so much information without first providing sufficient reason for such an action and reaching consensus.
If the edit war does not cease, admin action will be called for, and this article may end up under full protection yet again. This is definitely not what most editors would probably want, for full protection often hinders constructive contribution to Wikipedia. At this point, I implore all participating editors to leave emotions and biases at the door, and to indulge in some good old-fashion quality editing. If something is not the way you think it should be, please feel free to contribute. If the change you would like to see happen is quite drastic, please discuss it on this Talk Page. However, please also remember that numerous proposals regarding this article have already been discussed before, some even a number of times. If strong consensus has already been reached on an issue, and no new arguments are presented, it might be best to review what responses and reasoning were given for the ending action in previous discussions.
I also want to emphasize that the Talk Page should focus on the topic of the article, and not be about personal disputes between editors. If someone feels that another editor really needs constructive criticism, please utilize the User Talk Pages that each and every registered Wikipedian has. My last point should go without saying – please always be civil. ~ Homologeo 04:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Paedophiles are banned from wikipedia so I donty what you are doing here but I am sure you shouldnt be here. I think deleting the whole article would be constructive, you sickies shouldnt be allowed near the internet and my guess is you are breaking your parole violations by being here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdhrfr ( talk • contribs) 04:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Sdhrfr, please be civil and do not throw around groundless accusations. If you do not cease such disruptive behavior immediately, you will be promptly reported to an admin and will likely be blocked from editing. Also, you have yet to provide sufficient reasoning for the drastic change you would like to see happen to this particular article. Saying that you don't like and disapprove of a topic does not make it less Wikipedia-worthy. The proposal to delete the entire article has already been presented to the Wikipedia community, and the vote was to keep the article. Once again, you are encouraged to provide constructive edits and to propose controversial changes on the Talk Page. Who knows, some kind of consensus might be reached that incorporates a compromise between participating editors. Deleting so much information cannot be considered to be a help to Wikipedia. This is why I am reverting your previous edit. Please keep in mind Wikipedia’s Three Revert Rule. ~ Homologeo 04:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Here you go... a username for 86.131... if that makes you happy. Farenhorst 13:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
But, but... you openly disagree with SqueakBox, you must be a sockpuppet! =D Mike D78 20:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 19 |
When reading this article, I noticed there was a bit about the activists' questioning of psychological harm, but I saw very little info on any actual scientifice research on the topic (I think the only evidence was described as "anecdotal"). Anyone know of any info on this? I don't happen to be a psychologist/victim of pedophilia myself, but I would be rather surprised if there was much data lying around saying it produced no effects.
This page needs a lot of work to get it up to scratch re our POV policies. Merging into anti-pedophile activism would be a start, SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC) SqueakBox 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I have asked why the template was placed, what the problems are and what needs to be done to rectify the problems. Squeakbox has become rude (above) and Dpeterson reverted without comment. I don't see what can be done at this point. Joie de Vivre 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys, guys, guys!! Joie de Vivre is not one of the heads of the hydra come back again. The template is still there, but there's no evidence of the POV pushers around. Talk is all archived, so there's nothing to see (except 12 pages of archives -- which indicates there's been a lot of fighting). Joie, the editors at this and other pedophilia related pages can get testy sometimes because of the endless trolling that's gone on here and on other pages for a long time. SqueakBox and DPeterson talk can both be argumentative, which has been an asset under the prior circumstances, and will be again next time another troll comes along. I think you know that several relentless POV pushing editors have been banned indefinitely, as well as sockpuppets of those users who've been back to deliberately cause trouble. People are taking a deep breath, but there's still a lot of history to overcome, and a defensive stance is sometimes hard to let go. There are a lot of issues that were challenged left on the page. The existence of the page itself was roundly contested. There are other pages that need work too. It's hard to get to every problem, everywhere at once. I do not blame them for not wanting to outline all the POV issues that remain right now--bleah--but I also don't think it's wrong of you to ask why the template is still there but nothing is going on with the page. Now I hope I haven't pissed off both sides by getting in the middle here, but we all need each other and it would be nice not to fight for a change and finally get these articles cleaned up. - Jmh123 03:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Come on! What good logical reason is there to merge this with the anti article? We're talking different movements, here. It's already big enough with the (disputed) merge with the history article, and the anti page is barely a stub, with lots of work to do, IMO. (f a b i a n) 15:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone posted a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion about the TotallyDisputed tag. Having read the discussion, it sounds like the problem is resolved; i.e. this article still contains a history of issues that had been challenged in previous archived discussions and those issues haven't been addressed. If that is the case, then the TotallyDisputed tag should stay. Perhaps someone could go through the archives (ugh, what a lot of work that looks like) and list the remaining issues that had been challenged, so that they might be addressed. - Amatulic 20:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
**Please revert your 3RR violation. Personal discussion does not belong on this page**
A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus. (f a b i a n) 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Fabian is another SPA with contribs dating back to Junne 5, SqueakBox 16:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago, this article was merged with the history article. Although the user who merged it claimed that the (weak) consensus in favour of keeping the articles apart had changed, I found no discussion indicative of such a consensus.
Personally, I believe that the articles should be kept apart, as per the same reasons suggested in the last discussion I found on this issue. (f a b i a n) 10:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. -- Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of bickering and infighting going on here; which is not productive. I think it would be better if we all were to focus our energy on fixing the article instead.
Part of the problem is that what needs to happen is not clear. I think a good first step would be to identify the problems that need to be fixed. Joie de Vivre 20:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
There were a number of individuals who were listed as being supporters of pedophilia, without supporting references. Unsourced assertions of this nature should not be allowed to remain for one moment, regardless of whether they are true. I am investigating the truthfulness of these claims and will add them back if sources are found. Joie de Vivre 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
We have 101 and only 96 are turning up. Can someone better at these things than me please fix it? SqueakBox 21:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Why should we do this in the opening couple of paragraphs? The DSM bears little relation to activism, and it just seems like we're listing "negative things" against pedophile activism, because we foolishly think that it "balances" the article (when it actually introduces subjectivity galore) 153.19.178.28 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Is DP willing to discuss why exactly my edits are inferior? 153.19.178.28 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, all. So, it looks like we actually got somewhere in the section titled #Let's fix the article as far as determining what to do; we had several editors in agreement that bringing this article to NPOV was a good first step. The momentum was lost before any changes were made, so let's get it going again. Currently the {{totally disputed}} tag is still up, but we haven't identified what content should be changed in order to bring this article to NPOV. I actually don't see much that is explicitly POV; the material is presented in terms of what the activists do, say, and believe, i.e. "this is what they do", "this is what they believe". It is not used as a platform for espousing or legitimizing personal views as far as I see. However, Squeakbox had advocated for including the template, so I thought that perhaps he could outline the things that need changing most. It's not good to leave an article hanging around in a state of dispute, so let's fix it. Joie de Vivre 13:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
"David.L "Dave" Riegel is mentioned - but his home page ( http://www.shfri.net/dlr/) is not linked to his name. Should it be? If so, could someone who knows how do so? 24.229.103.183 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think this article puts too much emphasis on Non-Abstinent Childlove and it's opponents. Non-Abstinent Childlove advocates "consensual" sexual relationships between adults and children. However, the article largely ignores Abstinent Childlove, which opposes child pornography and sexual relationships between adults and children. Instead, Abstinent Childlovers work towards social tolerance and repealing laws against fantasy-oriented activities, such as lolicon. There should also be mention of Anti-Childlove, which opposes social tolerance and fantasy-oriented activities. They usually express the opinion that all Childlovers pose a danger to children, regardless of their "stated" views on abstinence. These topics may be difficult to research, as different groups use different terms.{{subst:unsigned|68.1.124.88
Please comment here on this subject.
So let's have this discussion, now that the merge tag in on Anti-pedophile activism. The proposal is, in effect, to move some of the content of Pro-pedophile activism into the anti article, and then redirecting pro to anti. I would have two comments: 1) it seems the resulting article should be called "Pedophile activism", since it presumably would be about both directions, 2) why merge, when the resulting article is likely to be quite large? Discuss. -- Askild 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC) (copied from above by DPeterson talk 22:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC))
The result was no consensus to merge Pro- and Anti-pedophile activism. -- Jmh123
No consensus was achieved on this discussion. One can find a new vote for merging the two articles into Pedophilia below
Well, as to this article containing material on anti-pedophile activism (enough to justify not having an a-p article), thats your fringe point of view. As far as I can tell, the article was started and consensually maintained with the aim of documenting one movement, not two.
May I ask why you think it is "POV" in one direction, to have an article which documents a notable movement that opposes the said direction? Samantha Pignez 22:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
If I counted correctly, this is how the final vote count looks (each side could have one extra tally, depending on Will Beback's vote):
4 (or 5) Yes vs. 6 (or 7) No
Homologeo 09:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment - It's a bold and interesting proposal. Procedure requires that before a proper discussion and "vote" can take place, the appropriate tags should be placed on the appropriate articles. An archive of the discussion will remain on the talk page which is designated for that discussion. Unless you're just getting opinions before starting that discussion. My opinion is that it is definitely worth considering. - Jmh123 16:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment. The combined article would be quite long. A good first step, which may be helpful regardless of the outcome of the merger decision, would be to trim down excess material from both articles. There's plenty of unsourced material, and even some sourced material may need to be removed to ensure balance. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
'COMMENT'I am in agreement with Jmh123. I think we should proceed with this NEW proposal in a formal manner and see what develops. OK? Next question, is how to do that? If someone knows and can start the ball rolling, that would be great. DPeterson talk 22:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, ball is rolling. - Jmh123 22:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus, but the merger was carried out nonetheless. - Jmh123 17:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Bringing XavierVE's proposal to this new discussion:
This topic is not analogous to topics of racism or abortion and the individual making that comparison is not doing a valid audit of how controversial topics are handled on Wikipedia. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking - There is not the "anti-smoking article" and the "pro-smoking article", there is an article about smoking, period, with both viewpoints contained therein. Why, why on any earth that there is even a pedophile activism article or a pro-pedophile activism or an anti-pedophile activism... when it should simply be a sub-category under the pedophilia article (which, btw, is a shorter article than the pro-pedophile activism article... by far) is beyond the pale. The vast majority of the information in both the pro- and anti- articles is mostly trivial, unworthy of inclusion into Wikipedia in general. Both pro- and anti- should be merged into the main pedophilia article with most of the non-notability of these articles (vastly contributed by now banned members who are pedophile activists themselves) excised from the project. XavierVE 11:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
'Agree' The three articles cover the same topics...see discussion above for me details. DPeterson talk 22:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, merge. This entry states that this is a "homosexual issue," and I've also seen the argument repeatedly in various articles to wit, "homosexuality was once a DSM category but now it isn't; pedophilia is next." The first statement appears to ignore the fact that some pedophiles seek sexual contact with adolescent children of the opposite sex, and others with very young pre-adolescent children, even toddlers. The article puts a lot of emphasis on homosexual attraction between adults and same-sex teenagers, particularly men and boys. The title "Pro-pedophile activism" implies support of all forms and types of pedophilia, and this entry could be construed as presenting a distorted notion of what pedophilia is by couching it in such limited terms and framing it as a homosexual issue. Isn't most of this article really about activism in support of legalizing a very specific form of pedophilic attraction, as opposed to some kind of Pro-pedophile activist movement in general? The Pro-pedophile activism entry should be pruned considerably prior to merging, and clarified when merged. - Jmh123 23:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - Xavier's example is insignificant. We have articles on pro and anti smoking campaigns and legislation. Whilst these are equivalent to activism, smoking is equivalent to pedophilia. This pattern is replicated throughout wikipedia, in that we have an article documenting a highly prevalent subject such as pedophilia, and articles that describe for and against positions, based on their notability. Whilst the pro article is just about the right size for its notability, the anti article needs massive expansion.
May I also add that we should not be aiming to "downsize the target", as DPeterson seems to be attempting at his own exhaustion. However unsettling we find a subject, we must afford it an article who's size equates to its notability. For pro pedophile activism, this has been achieved (as our many sources show). For anti pedophile activism, this is not the case.
And lastly, I will reply to Xavier's argument that "pedophile activists" have infiltrated wikipedia. Look, Xavier. As a wikipedia editor ans supporter of NPOV enforcement, it is not my concern who is editing, and what their personal opinions are. I am concerned with what has been produced, and from the look of it, our current article is fair and balanced - if anything slightly biased towards your lobby. I am all for specialist information being integrated into this article, and I look forward to working with people who know what they're talking about. Samantha Pignez 23:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Jmh123 suggested I elaborate my reasons here and not refer to previous comments. OK.
Your interpretation of the pedophilia definition in the DSM is terribly inadequate, as it doesn't imply activity. Using this as a reason to merge articles is dishonest and irrelevant. The DSM is controversial, for the right reasons. Consider the claims made against transgender people. Barry Jameson 23:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - First of all, when there is a proposal such as this, the discussion is supposed to take place on the talk page for the article that the others are being merged into. That the discussion is taking place on the talk page for "pro-pedophile activism" suggests that the supporters of this proposal are more interested in dealing with this article, which they apparently have a problem with, rather than making any constructive changes to the article on pedophilia.
Xavier's opinion that the information in the pro-pedophile activism article is "non-notable" or "trivial" is irrelevant, as is the relevancy of the article to the general public, to an extent. The very purpose of the Wikipedia project is to provide a scope of information that would not be possible in traditional sources, such as print encyclopedias. Much of the information documented in the pro-pedophile activism article HAS, in fact, been reported in the media at various points. Finally, it is unlikely that this article would've been the topic of such extensive discussion on its talk page were this subject simply "non-notable." If Wikipedia can have a page dedicated to every known fictional character in the Star Wars universe, for instance, it can certainly have a page dedicated to this documented series of people, groups, and events in the real world.
Xavier has made his intentions for this proposal clear; there's not even the pretense that the merging of these articles would in any way provide a more clear or extensive overview of the topics at hand. The intention is to have the content of the pro-pedophile activism article "trimmed to... ten percent of [its] current size." Whichever side of any hypothetical issue you are on, the fact that the intention here is to outright censor such a large amount of valuable, hard to come by information currently available on Wikipedia should be unacceptable to everyone.
Finally--and this should not be interpreted as a personal attack on Von Erck--this move is consistent with the efforts of his group to censor information related to pedophile activism on the web. Von Erck no doubt sees this article as the next target on his list of blogs, websites, and other resources which through sheer intimidation he has attempted to have removed. That there is an actual debate on this topic suggested here and demonstrated by the documentation of groups involved in a "movement"--regardless of its alleged "notability"--must irk him to no end (pun INTENDED =) ). I am not saying that Von Erck cannot contribute and offer his own two cents on this topic, as all Wikipedians with their own diverse points of view can. But the idea that he doesn't have a thinly-veiled agenda here is ridiculous. Additionally, the fact that he sees fit to criticize an article he alleges was created by biased "infiltrators," when his own strongly-biased viewpoint is no secret, is equally ridiculous. Apparently he sees himself as being the only person with a biased point of view that should be allowed to edit regarding this topic. And his point of view is decidedly different from the unfavorable view surrounding this topic held by the general public. He is essentially actively involved in undermining the activities of the subjects discussed in this article. He is more biased regarding this topic than your average person and certainly just as biased as any activist “infiltrator” who has contributed. So the obvious conclusion here is that the intention is to censor information he wishes were not available rather than make constructive changes to Wikipedia regarding this topic.
Also, regarding DPeterson's claims: the "DSM-IV diagnosis" is irrelevant in this particular debate. The article on "pedophilia" discusses the medical concept of the condition, whereas this article documents people and groups that claim to be part of a movement. The concepts described in these articles are distinctly different in scope, and trying to merge them would create a mess. Ultimately, most non medical-related information would be removed from the pedophilia article (as it should be) and we would be left with all information on activism being lost (no doubt the goal of the supporters of this proposal).
If you take a look at the article for Deafness, for instance, you will find that all of the medical-related information on the condition is in the "Deafness" article, while most of the socially-relevant information is in the "Deaf culture" article. As should be obvious, the scope of information related to the medical definition of deafness and the sociology associated with the condition are vastly different, thus separate articles are necessary. The same concept can also be observed with the separate articles for "Autism" and the "Autistic rights movement," and the same would logically apply with pedophilia. Your view of the "notability" or legitimacy of the movement is irrelevant toward deciding whether a separate article on it should exist or not. The movement exists, thus the article on it exists. The information is out there, therefore Wikipedia, in its mission to make available the "sum of all human knowledge," has an interest in documenting it.
Mike D78 05:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
'Oppose' - My thoughts on this involve the length the "pedophilia" article will reach if merged with these other sections. As the "pedophilia" article continues to evolve, we will find the article needing to be subdivided, etc., and the material of the "Pro-pedophile activism" and "Anti-pedophile activism" will seem prime candidates for being segmented off into articles of their own. If for no other reason, this seems sufficient to keep this material autonomous. Welland R 10:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose both types of mergers proposed, for right now anyways. The reasoning for not merging the pro- and anti- articles into a single article dealing with "Pedophile activism" or "Pedophilia-related activism" is explained in a section above. As for the newly proposed merger with the general topic of Pedophilia, this would not be a smart move for Wikipedia, as both kinds of pedophile activism are related to yet still notably different from pedophila itself. The article on pedophilia deals with the actual phenomenon, and largely focuses on the mainstream medical definition and study of pedophilia. The pro- and anti- articles, on the other hand, focus on the efforts and arguments various activists put forth in order to promote a specific set of values, whatever that may be. These movements deserve seperate articles, just like any other kind of activism. Besides, it's pointless to argue that pedophile activism is not notable enough for Wikipedia, as this movement has been around for decades now, and has a substantial amount of legitimate exposure and litterature behind it. Whether people agree or disagree with particular viewpoints expressed by pro- and anti- pedophile activists, those ideas should be discussed (in a clear, concise, and NPOV manner) on Wikipedia, as long as they're legit and prominent enough. Finally, merging the two activism articles into the "Pedophilia" article would indeed make the resulting article too large and confusing. The focus should right now be on bringing each of the two articles in question to Wikipedia standards, and not on mergers that would create more problems for readers and editors alike. Homologeo 11:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Oppose as before, and for similar reasons to Homologeo. -- Coroebus 12:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
After five days, the votes have been cast at no consensus, with very little chance of the proposal going through. Personally, I think a couple more days will do it. 86.131.41.244 00:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In response to Dybryd: The point of merging the articles is to eliminate the duplication. Keeping the articles separate requires marked duplication of material to keep each article NPOV. DPeterson talk 00:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
He was arguing against the grubby tabloid efforts of wiki admins in blocking users simply for what they are or what they believe in. I don't think that he was arguing that the policies do not exist. Samantha Pignez 22:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Samantha! Like her, I see absolutely no reason to be suspicious of new accounts that only post on one contentious topic! In order to assume good faith, we must systematically overlook obvious bias! Femaleperson Notapedo 03:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
As can be seen from previous edits to the article, an editor is attempting to insert the unsupported, unsourced claim that the DSM implies pedophilia in almost every child molester. This claim has been inserted in different places, removed and then reinstated without any other justification but "deleted in error". Whats more, the DSM is adequately (and accurately) covered in the criticism section, yet the section which is being targeted concerns the claims of pedophile activists. This kind of annoys me - the creeping, malignant implantation of unsourced, subjective opinions, supposedly to prove ad nauseum that "we don't agree with them, REALLY". Very poor article construction. 213.239.218.176 01:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
'Keep For the reasons I've stated above. DPeterson talk 01:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete from the pro claims section, as per my justification. I modified the vote, since I do not oppose the DSM's mention in criticism 213.239.218.176 01:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep as per DPeterson, SqueakBox 03:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep as per DPeterson. If random IP's are going to vote, I might as well too. XavierVE 07:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete this reference; it is unsourced and inaccurate. The facts simply do not prove that "nearly all child molestors" are motivated by pedophilia in the strict DSM definition of the term. The reference is also slopily written, as well; an exact figure would be much more preferable, but this sentence probably doesn't belong in the various places that one user has been attempting to insert it, anyway. Mike D78 04:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep per XavierVE. This IP and Mike D78 is obviously a sock puppet. These editors have been here for some time, from their contribs. Its silly of Wikipedia policies to entertain sock puppets. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 14:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Delete - misinformative and out of context! Samantha Pignez 23:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The Pedophilia article contains far, far too much information that belongs on this page. I've proposed that the relevant sections be merged here. Exploding Boy 06:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Information removed from the main article can be found here
I've proposed that this page be renamed Pedophilia activism, to encompass both pro- and anti- views, as one would expect. Exploding Boy 06:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
You mean you're going to list the Pro-pedophile activism page for deletion? This is becoming confusing; can we do one thing at a time? Exploding Boy 17:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe there is a reason, which is why I advise SqueakBox not to do it. Exploding Boy 17:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
No, a dispute is not valid reason to delete an article. You may want to read the deletion policy. Exploding Boy 18:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is for discussing the proposed merging of the pro and anti articles into a single article about activism. I would encourage users who seem obsessed with the idea of deleting/merging this article into the pedophilia article to drop the issue. The idea has been discussed to death, rejected, and even carried out in defiance of typical protocol, and the result was judged by an admin to be unacceptable. So please, let's move on.
As for merging the pro and anti articles, I think that is unnecessary at this time, as the anti article was still farily new and had plenty of room for expansion. Theoretically, an anti-pedophile activism article could include the history of anti-pedophile sentiment, such as the 80s daycare satanic abuse scandals, laws that have been passed and organizations that have been formed in response to high profile events, etc. Again, the anti-pedophile activism article was created fairly recently, and it was created for a purpose, so we should give interested users time to work on it before we scrap it.
Thoughts? Mike D78 23:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, would you care to discuss what exactly it is you disagree with concerning what I have written? Also, I have restored the anti-pedophilia activism page to its former version, as there was no consensus to redirect it. I would encourage users to focus on how we can improve the anti-pedophilia activism article to make it just as long as this one. Again, it was created only recently, and to delete it now would be silly. I think it's a relevant article that deserves some work. Mike D78 00:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
This is currently listed at WP:RM, but there appears to be no poll as yet, and no prospect of consensus if one were to be taken. Feel free to set one up, but it's a waste of time IMO, especially in view of the failed proposal to merge with Anti-pedophile activism (currently a redirect, see Talk:Anti-pedophile activism#What happened to the article? and elsewhere in that talk page). Interesting discussion, and I commend the restraint of some editors! Hang in there. Andrewa 00:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
All editors: please use article talk pages for discussion of the relevant article(s) only. Take other discussion to user talk pages or email. Thank you. Exploding Boy 23:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This article fails on notability grounds. While individuals such as Lindsay Ashford have shown notability on the project, and while certain groups also demonstarte notability (like NAMBLA) the concept of a Pro-pedophile activist movement does not, IMO, meet our notability guidelines (whereas the anti-pedophile activism movement actually does so much more) and what notabilty it has can easily be included in a short section in pedophile (as the movement does have enough notability to warrant mention there), SqueakBox 00:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. Let's develop a new strategy. Ignore these multiple proposals (bar the vote) and concentrate on building this article. Hopefully at least 50% of the editors will have some semblence of neutrality. Samantha Pignez 23:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
If one would note, a few of the sources for this "article" have been removed from the internet period, notably the "debate guide" blog (And everyone knows blogs don't meet Sourcing standards here) and a few of the other weird blogs that banned SPA's put into this article. But more importantly... about 60% of this article is sourced to one source... IPCE.info. Each IPCE reference was also implanted into this article by banned SPA accounts as well. If you don't believe me, check the edit history.
Please do explain how IPCE.info is a valid source by Wikipedian standards. It's a poorly coded website whose content is propagated by one person. Even the articles IPCE hosts that they claim come from specific newsletters, there's no actual evidence that these newsletters A. Existed and B. contained the content claimed. Should this article survive the pending AfD, I would think Wikipedian editors should examine the material laid down by now-banned SPA's and especially anything sourced to IPCE... or any of the sources in general, a few of them don't even exist anymore. XavierVE 01:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A previous discussion only half a month ago concerning the merging of the pro and anti pedophile activism articles resulted in no consensus, with the majority of users disaproving of the idea. Rather than putting our efforts into further debate over this proposal so soon, why not discuss how we can improve the anti-pedophile activism article so that it can become just as comprehensive as this one? I have proposed some ideas at the talk page for that article concerning how we can do just that.
It seems to me that activism regarding these topics represents two different subjects that deserve their own articles. We need criticism and controversy regarding pro-pedophile activism to be kept in this article, but anti-pedophile activism consists of more than simply criticism of pro-pedophile activism. Anti-pedophile sentiment is not generally in response to pro-pedophile activism, but is often in response to high-profile events that provoke public reaction and new laws. The anti-pedophile activism article should document the history of anti-pedophile sentiment, just as this article documents the history of its topic.
The fact is, organisations like PJ were not formed in response to NAMBLA, etc. Anti-pedophile activism has its own, generally unrelated history which should be kept seperate from this article and documented in its own entry. Mike D78 10:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
You certainly made a lot of little changes to this article, including the removal of an entire section. Why don't we discuss things things first; particularly, if you felt that paragraph needs to be integrated elsewhere, let's figure out how to do that before deleting the information. Mike D78 21:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Some of the edits were clearly problematic, especially the removal of a section that dares to admit that some official research supports some activist positions. As for Peterson, he has to learn that we discuss before reverting to a new version that someone is contesting on a talk page. That is the done thing here. Samantha Pignez 23:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)Today I have edited through to the end of the "decline" section. I have been careful to change no meaning, and removed only a few words that I considered to be POV, and one unsourced statement that seemed to me to be of no vital importance. My main concern was to correct the formatting, and to improve the style of writing, which was, though well done, apparently not the work of a native speaker of English. I'd appreciate it if this work was not reverted wholesale, as it was tedious and detailed work. In my mind, this is the heart of the article, and is a NPOV history of the movement. The remainder of the article is more problematic, but I'm not going there today. - Jmh123 19:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Jmh recently deleted a section listing individuals that supported and opposed pedophile activism. This was probably a good move; I would imagine these individuals probably have nuanced views and might not wish to be identified in this particular way. However, I think some of this information could be integrated elsewhere within the article. Individuals who explicitly identify themselves as opponents or supporters, such as Ashford, should certainly be mentioned, and I think we can find places for some of the quotes of people like Califia, Green, Levine, Paglia, Schlessinger, Echols, etc. Directly quoting individuals would eliminate most of the problem of alledgedly POV wording, as long as the quotes are placed in the proper context. Mike D78 06:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
These two paragraphs are not sourced and do not appear to be related to the notion of decline. They appear to me to be somewhat random insertions made after the main section was written. May I delete them? I have no objection to a subsequent restatement or a new section including this information, if sourced. - Jmh123 18:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Pedophile advocacy turned in the mid-90s to the Internet. In 1995, BoyChat, a message board for "boylovers", was established. In 1997, participants on BoyChat and other online resources formed Free Spirits, an umbrella organization with the mission of raising money and providing secure Internet hosting services. The Montreal Ganymede Collective was formed in Montreal by Free Spirits members in 1998 as a forum for "boylovers" to meet in the real world. In early 2001, the first "boylove" broadcast media source, Sure Quality Internet Radio, was founded by Jeffrey Gold in Florida, USA. citation needed
In Germany, the Krumme 13 organization, founded in 1993 and dissolved in 2003, stirred up massive and mostly negative press coverage in the years 2001 through 2005. In 2005, krumme13.org won a penal court case that a textual depiction of a love relationship between an eleven-year-old boy and a thirty-year-old man in the Pedosexual Resources Directory was not child pornography. citation needed
Is totally POV as it describes sonme very POV beliefs with none of the opposition to contrast. We need more criticism of pro pedophile activist beliefs if this article is to become NPOV and this is a classic example of it not beiong here. lets make an effort to source those who debunk the unusual claims of the pro ped activists, SqueakBox 19:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this section as it appeared to me to be overkill. There are already lists of organizations, external links, references, and footnotes. These were simply links to more articles about the subject, none particularly definitive or making points that were different from the main article as far as I could tell. They appeared to me to be lazy additions rather than thoughtful incorporations. If they contain information not otherwise present, they can be worked into the text and footnoted. - Jmh123 20:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to respond to each of these seperately:
Mike D78 03:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
"The complete removal of information regarding the goals of pedophile activists in the introduction" was done because the info was unsourced. "We need to leave in the part about the distinction between pedophiles and child molesters" shouldnt be here but in pedophilia, IMO. Lots of refs is no bad thing, SqueakBox 20:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What about something along these lines (assuming the "jump to" links in the main article work correctly with a scroll box):
Mike D78 22:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits to and other statements in the "questioning science" sections refer to studies that activists "may cite," but provide no reference. "May cite" is...not encyclopedic. Beyond the pages of Wikipedia, where are these arguments/citations made? - Jmh123 21:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
"To counter developmental arguments that children cannot give informed consent, for example, David L. Riegel (2000) stated in his book Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers, 'Anyone who holds to the idea that a young boy cannot give or withhold informed consent has never taken such a boy shopping for new sneakers' (p. 38)." How does this illustrate informed consent? Because they are eager to spend your money to get something they want, and have a preference as to the brand? I don't get it. It's a loooooong way from choosing sneakers to choosing sex. Proferring gifts is a known method of obtaining consent, but I don't think that's the intended meaning here. - Jmh123 21:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely. It is enshrined in our legal system that young children cannot give consent; period. Wanting sneakers has nothing to do with informed consent. A want is not consent. DPeterson talk 22:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
That quote does come off as a little confusing, but it's valuable because of the fact that it's from a published book on the subject. So I dunno, it would be a lot easier if someone owned the book and could maybe provide a better, more self-explanatory quote. Or maybe we just need to find another quote from another source altogether to illustrate this idea? Mike D78 22:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I rearranged the sections in order to put the perspectives and scientific claims sections together, as I believe they are related. I also think there's a lot of duplication between the two, and it's easier to see when arranged this way. Although they are themed differently, which makes doing this more difficult, I think the article as a piece of writing and as an encyclopedia article would be much stronger if these two sections were shorter and more compact, with repetition of points/studies eliminated.
I deleted the short section on "the movement's use of scientific papers" as the entire section is about scientific claims, and this paragraph simply states what the entire section demonstrates. The Fagan et. al. study is cited earlier.
I have reduced the "Questioning assumptions" to actual examples of scientific studies. Whereas the insertion of reference to Ashford articles was well-meaning, in response to a criticism, the citations do not meet the criticism, as stated above.
I integrated the articles listed under "media and academic articles" into the reference list, except for one dead link. - Jmh123 02:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks--I just made a couple of changes in the lead to tighten it up. Naming a couple of internet groups as examples wouldn't hurt. I just thought the Ipce sentence didn't flow right with the rest. - Jmh123 03:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Because of the sensitivity regarding editing this entry, I don't want to get into those two sections I mentioned with a heavy hand, but I wish you would look it over, Mike D78, and see if you can see any way to consolidate or shorten these sections. I realize that each is different, and each has a different theme, but there is a lot of similarity and repetition nonetheless, especially when some of the points are also made in other parts of the article. Thanks. - Jmh123 03:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here are some thoughts I have regarding the improvement of this article. My apologies again for not being able to devote time to the agreed upon changes to this article recently. l haven't begun implementing any of the following ideas in earnest yet, but I'll create a temp page demonstrating any major edits I consider so others can provide input.
I'll see about getting some of these things started in the next few days. Mike D78 08:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I take issue with the inclusion of anti-gay groups such as NARTH and CWA among the opponents of pedophile activism. In fact, such groups do not at all direct their energies or their rhetoric toward opposing the legislative or social goals of pedophile activists (you don't hear a peep out of them about the age of consent or what-have-you -- on the contrary many religious conservatives support early marriage for girls).
They simply use the spectre of pedophilia as a rhetorical weapon against gay-rights groups. In fact, in one sense their goals and NAMBLA's are exactly the same: they falsely portray pedophile activism as part of the gay-rights movement in order to further an unrelated agenda.
So, cutting them from the list.
DanB†DanD 18:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Without commenting on this history, which is obviously a sore point, conflating these two movements is problematic. The article at the time I first got involved seemed at times to be reducing pedophilia to a homosexual issue. It's one thing to discuss connections between the movements; another entirely to appear to be obscuring the scope of pedophilia by reducing it to an issue of consensual relations between same sex partners, one of whom is just a little below the age of consent. Some pedophiles are interested in children of the opposite sex. Some pedophiles are interested in very young children. The article needs to reflect that, as I believe it is now well on the way to doing. If pro-pedophile activism does not encompass all types of pedophilia, then the article needs to make that clear, and the title should be changed accordingly. - Jmh123 15:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is disgusting and needs to be deleted, this should not be given the time of day on wikipedia. It is just plain wrong and the sources are bottom of the barrel rubbish. 89.240.154.160 19:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
So now they have "pro-pedophile activism"? What's next, pro-ruining-some-poor-little-kids-whole-life-for-the-sake-of-my-perverted-sexual-desires-activism? Sick. This sort of crap shouldn't be on the internet. 63.245.145.113 10:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, "no consensus" is the standard declaration for procedural votes that don't pass in a supportive manner. A 6-19 vote against deleting this article is about as much of a statement against an idea as you are going to encounter on Wikipedia. Mike D78 01:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
We've told people that their rights are held high, that they can do what they want to do. In fact, the whole idea of free sexuality is ruining the world. Pro-abortion is ending a child's life, well before the child has a voice. Silencing a voice. Pro-pedophile activism is just as horrifying. - Yancyfry 04:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody removed the tag. Okayty, I've reduced excess content and its now the same length as anti pedophile activism. Please dont revert without readding the tag, ideally dont revert anyway as what is here now is sufficent, SqueakBox 00:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Well at least you readded the tag but why revert my good edits. All this stuff is unnecessary and this article shopuld be shorter than the anti for notability reasons. Please give an explanmation for your revert here, SqueakBox 01:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Squeak, the fact that you are encouraging me to have this kind of a discussion with you yet again is disruptive, and I clearly have better things I could be doing right now in relation to Wikipedia. Furthermore, the fact that you never even address 99% of the points I make in general makes me question the point of discussing anything with you. I guess others will see how unreasonable you're being, though. But really, you make snide comments toward me like "if that is the ebst you cvan come up with" as if you see this as some kind of a competition to be won or something. The evident emotion you bring to this discussion almost prevents you from typing a coherent sentence in response to me.
I'm not here to constantly engage in pointless arguments, Squeak, especially if you are not even going to consider and address most of the concerns I bring up. The reverting of significant deletions of information, like you are doing, without any kind of justification beforehand, only serves to provoke these kind of arguments. You insist that I should give an explanation for reverting this article back to its previous version, but you yourself failed to provide a legitimate reason or have any kind of a discussion before your massive edit. The fact that I'm the one that's being put on the defensive here, that I'm the one that is told to justify maintaining the previously agreed upon version of this article, is ludicrous. You are the one that needs significant support before you delete 99% of an article.
This isn't about preserving some "precious corner of wikipedia," it's about maintaining encyclopedic information, and if you have any delusions about making this into some kind of personal battleground for you against others then you seriously need to reconsider what Wikipedia is about.
There was indeed consensus to keep this article, Squeak; the official declaration of "no consensus" is in reference to the proposal to delete the article. I don't know how much more simply I can explain this to you, Squeak. There was no consensus to delete. So stop making edits that are essentially tantamount to the deletion of this article. If you do so again, I will have no choice but to consider admin action. Mike D78 03:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The article really does not need all that extra material. Let's just focus on content and not persons. NPOV requires balance. The article in its "slim" version does just that quite well. Other material can be found in other articles. Furthermore, I don't see consensus regarding the longer version. I do see disagreement. DPeterson talk 00:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
As much as I don't want to be a part of this pointless confrontation that is being reignited yet again, I want to remind all editors participating in the editing of this article that drastic changes to an article usually need to be discussed on the Talk Page first. Considering that pro-pedophile activism has proved to be such a controversial topic on Wikipedia, discussion is definitely needed in order to reach consensus and avoid redundant edit warring. Deletion of almost everything but the intro can by no means be considered a "bold" or a "good" edit. It is tantamount to the deletion of the article itself. Although some might think that is indeed what should happen, Wikipedia prides itself on the collaborative effort that goes into making this such a successful and reliable project. Thus, because no consensus was reached on whether the majority of the text of the article should be completely deleted, I have reverted the last edit that did this. Please do not delete so much information without first providing sufficient reason for such an action and reaching consensus.
If the edit war does not cease, admin action will be called for, and this article may end up under full protection yet again. This is definitely not what most editors would probably want, for full protection often hinders constructive contribution to Wikipedia. At this point, I implore all participating editors to leave emotions and biases at the door, and to indulge in some good old-fashion quality editing. If something is not the way you think it should be, please feel free to contribute. If the change you would like to see happen is quite drastic, please discuss it on this Talk Page. However, please also remember that numerous proposals regarding this article have already been discussed before, some even a number of times. If strong consensus has already been reached on an issue, and no new arguments are presented, it might be best to review what responses and reasoning were given for the ending action in previous discussions.
I also want to emphasize that the Talk Page should focus on the topic of the article, and not be about personal disputes between editors. If someone feels that another editor really needs constructive criticism, please utilize the User Talk Pages that each and every registered Wikipedian has. My last point should go without saying – please always be civil. ~ Homologeo 04:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Paedophiles are banned from wikipedia so I donty what you are doing here but I am sure you shouldnt be here. I think deleting the whole article would be constructive, you sickies shouldnt be allowed near the internet and my guess is you are breaking your parole violations by being here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdhrfr ( talk • contribs) 04:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Sdhrfr, please be civil and do not throw around groundless accusations. If you do not cease such disruptive behavior immediately, you will be promptly reported to an admin and will likely be blocked from editing. Also, you have yet to provide sufficient reasoning for the drastic change you would like to see happen to this particular article. Saying that you don't like and disapprove of a topic does not make it less Wikipedia-worthy. The proposal to delete the entire article has already been presented to the Wikipedia community, and the vote was to keep the article. Once again, you are encouraged to provide constructive edits and to propose controversial changes on the Talk Page. Who knows, some kind of consensus might be reached that incorporates a compromise between participating editors. Deleting so much information cannot be considered to be a help to Wikipedia. This is why I am reverting your previous edit. Please keep in mind Wikipedia’s Three Revert Rule. ~ Homologeo 04:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Here you go... a username for 86.131... if that makes you happy. Farenhorst 13:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
But, but... you openly disagree with SqueakBox, you must be a sockpuppet! =D Mike D78 20:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)