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doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. This list was inspired by another editor's contention to Carptrash that "there is no such thing as a 'significant pediment'," and blanking the section he had started. Carptrash changed the section heading to "Notable pediments ...", and it was blanked again.
Other suggestions/opinions? == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 13:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
that when these are arranged chronologically they start in Philadelphia. Coincidence or . . . . . . . . . ............ something else? Carptrash ( talk) 20:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
figuring out how to link (?) the various pediments in the same building. It looks great. Also, where did you find my Tippecanoe & Tyler Too pediment? Carptrash ( talk) 18:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Sort of funny. Even though the Women's Building was destroyed a couple of years before I was born, the image of the pediment is still one I uploaded. And I thought you were done with pediments for a while? Carptrash ( talk) 03:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
There's a lovely pediment sculpture on the Rush Rhees Library at the University of Rochester, reportedly done by a Ricci and an Ardolino, and there's another lovely pediment sculpture at the Rockfeller mansion Kykuit, credited to Francois Tonetti and perhaps finished by his wife.... are we going for a complete set? That would be a worthy useful goal. At one point a few years ago Carptrash & I counted 116 in the U.S. in total. -- Lockley ( talk) 21:59, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, do you want to limit it to
figural(?)/
figurative(?)
Figurative art sculpture? Or just require it to have something more than geometric? But there may really not be too many of all kinds. --
do
ncr
am
02:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Stopping for now. There are one or two more marginal ones in List of Masonic buildings in the United States, and I haven't checked the weirdly split-out List of former Masonic buildings in the United States. I doubt there will be many or any in List of Elks buildings, List of Woodmen of the World buildings, List of Odd Fellows buildings, etc. -- do ncr am 03:52, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
List of former Masonic buildings in the United States offers a good model for breaking it up into states (in the future). The location arrow can suffice for now. == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 16:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I can't upload images anymore, so should I start breaking this list down into states? Carptrash ( talk) 01:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hey, you guys are hitting my watchlist! I might have to start the natural anti-list. :) -- do ncr am 01:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I am removing Triebel as a sculptor at the Illinois State Memorial in Vicksburg, MS because (1) the standard reference, Kvaran & Lockley’s Field Guide to Architectural Sculpture in the United States does not mention him and also (2) because Cooley, Adelaide N. The Monument Maker: A Biography of Frederick Ernest Triebel, The rediscovery of a forgotten American sculptor Exposition Press, Hicksville NY, 1978, does not include it. He has other work at Vicksburg, but not the Illinois Memorial. Carptrash ( talk) 02:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi @ BoringHistoryGuy: -- I'll be comparing your list to ours, and the results will emerge in good time. You're still working off a list from SIRIS, yes? I'll stand by that estimate of no more than (eh...) 150 existing pediments in the U.S. including sculpture with human figures, our working definition. Gotta draw the line somewhere. In the meantime let me offer what is probably an extreme example, the most recent in the U.S., and a lovely elaborate example from Raymond Kaskey. -- Lockley ( talk) 04:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Here are all the remaining Masonic ones, and an Elks one or two (and no contributions found from list-articles of Knights of Pythia, Knights of Columbus and other fraternities) that can be identified from photos in their list-articles. And I have scanned through the geographically-organized NRHP list-articles for states of Delaware and Rhode Island. And I have scanned all of current main List of courthouses in the United States (and split out Texas and Nebraska sublists) (but this covers just state and county and local courthouses, and many pics are yet to be uploaded to it from linked articles). Omits Federal courthouses so far in separate lists, and omits Alabama and other split out ones Note many buildings don't have photos, and this doesn't cover many buildings in historic districts. And I make mistakes, this is far from perfect review of available pics.
I signed my comments in pic captions; bhg, carptrash, anyone else can add your comments in pic captions too? -- do ncr am 18:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Not sure how the formatting for this should be, but, oy well. Carptrash ( talk) 01:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Here's another one, Elk head sculpture in pediment (or coming out from it?) at Elks Temple (Tacoma, Washington), from 1916 building designed by Ecole des Beaux Arts-educated E. Frere Champney (see page 10 in Gallacci, Caroline and Patricia A. Sias (December 23, 1977). "National Register of Historic Places Inventory/Nomination: Old City Hall Historic District". National Park Service. Retrieved December 5, 2016.). By the suggested criteria, I think but am not positive this qualifies. The building and its architect but not the specific pedimental sculpture are covered in the NRHP nomination document for the historic district that it is in. -- do ncr am 02:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Philadelphia City Hall is covered with sculptures, some draped across top of pediments (so excluded by suggested rules for this list-article), but also there are some within curved pediments above the third level on the north and south facades. -- do ncr am 21:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
file:Bleckley County Courthouse, Cochran, GA, USA.jpg (03).jpg For what it is worth, here is a closer photo of the Bleckley County courthouse. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. A big thank you to do ncr am, for reorganizing the list by location. Organizing it by building may have made sense at the beginning when we only had 11 sculptured pediments. We now have 120! (some are listed collectively in the Sculpture column). == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 15:14, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
doncram. BoringHistoryGuy. Carptrash. Another Believer. Hi everybody.... there's about 35 more pediments in the U.S. that could go on the list. Give or take.
Seven belong to buildings that have been razed, including a couple of vanished world's fairs. But at least one is important in the history, Karl Bitter's Bank of Pittsburgh. Wanted to get your opinions on whether it's fair to rule the fairs out. I think so. We could be here all day, counting the pediments at the 1895 Cotton Extravagopolus or whatever it was.
Eight are additional county courthouses: Nueces County, Texas (the weakest example), Sedgwick County, Kansas, Passaic County, New Jersey, Crawford County, Ohio, Lafayette County, Wisconsin, Sibley County, Minnesota, Utah County, Utah (a very good one), and Shelby County, Tennessee, a must-have.
And a bunch of others, the New Orleans City Hall is in there, a few banks, churches, schools, the Masonic Temple in St. Louis, etc. I'll continue to write those up. Adding all these to the existing format may (opinion) or may not be ideal. Might get long. I'll happily work with whatever you all think about splitting out sections & pages or not. All in the spirit of "oh man check that out!", and a quiet happy election day to US'ers -- Lockley ( talk) 19:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. What do you folks think of this? In my opinion, it's more a decorated gable than a pedimental sculpture. Does it belong here? == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 13:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. I deliberately left out those Broad Street Station gable reliefs by Bitter, but included his sculptured pediment over the entrance to the 15th Street tunnel that ran under the station. Bitter also did gable reliefs for the dormers of Furness's Jayne House (built for his niece Caroline and her husband).
I hope you folks have experienced the Furness Library. It is a series of thrilling spaces.
Okay, I think we're coming to a consensus: Decorated gables are (generally) not pedimental sculptures. == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 19:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm a novice in this area, and I am sure that architectural terms are used incorrectly from time to time in sources, but I'm sure also that Wikipedia's definitions/articles on the terms are incomplete, if not incorrect, at times too. So when the Grant County Courthouse (Ephrata, Washington)'s NRHP nomination describes what's in the "typanum" (sic) as a Roman urn and other decoration, I am unsure if that's absolutely incorrect usage or not. According to Wikipedia's tympanum (architecture), a tympanum is only over a doorway. Clearly sometimes something over a doorway is a pediment, and sometimes it is not. When exactly is something a tympanum vs. when is it a pediment? Can it be both? Is there a continuum? What about the National Academy of Sciences example, discussed previously, what is that over the doorway? It really is nice, again, but also it doesn't really look like a pediment. Is it a tympanum?
Also, the tympanum (architecture) article uses the word archivolt as the surrounding of a tympanum, in a way that seems incompatible with the perhaps-too-narrow definition of archivolt in the archivolt article. To whom am I supposed to report this? -- do nor am 22:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
I think the U.S. Customs Building listed at being at 14th St. NW & Constitution Avenue, but not wiki-linked, is the
Herbert C. Hoover Building, or part of it. On the West side of the Herbert Hoover Building, on 15th St. NW., there are FOUR pediments with sculpture that i can see in Google Maps streetview. And they are along a north-south line. Rather than there being two, with one being "eastern" and "western" as the table now describes. There are no pediments with sculptures on any other side of the building that I can see from "walking around it" using streetview. --
do
ncr
am
02:52, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Okay. Dept. of Labor, (Gurney) pediments by Sherry Fry, Albert Stewart, Wheeler Williams, Edward McCartan, and Edgar Walter. Carptrash ( talk) 02:05, 25 November 2016 (UTC) I think we have them all, I might have pics of the two not so adorned. I need to be cautious about labeling, since I have messed up a few. Carptrash ( talk) 02:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
I uploaded a couple of pictures, no problem. Then I got to the Kennedy Justice building and I uploaded two pictures, which have the names carved opn them, but I could not figure out how to do the split thing. That is to say, how to get two images for the same building. So here they are and hopefully one (or more) of you can take these pictures and put them in their respective slots. Thanks, Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 04:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
In addition to the already-listed Buffalo History Museum, the 1901 Pan-American Exposition included a Pantheon-like "Ethnology Building" with pedimental sculpture. It had "a pediment containing McNeil’s ethnological group, forming the decorative motive of the tympanum" above each entrance. Perhaps McNeil = Hermon Atkins MacNeil? See "The Ethnology Building" by George Cary, within the Art Handbook of the exposition, page 17. I can't make out too much detail in the illustration available. Is anything else available about this?
The Temple of Music had four sculptured groups by Konti over (not inside) its four pediments, by the way. The Horticultural Group had "an ample pediment ornamented with rich decorations in relief". -- do ncr am 20:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Which is the most Trumpian? How about the western pediment of the Robert F. Kennedy Department of Justice Building, Ars boni, "for the good of the state"? :) -- do ncr am 13:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I could use help with this: the NRHP document for Opelousas Historic District describes Union Bank and Trust building at corner of S. Court and E. Bellevue in Opelousas, Louisiana as having a pelican in its pediment, and no way, IMHO, it's an eagle. See it close up in Google Streetview (perhaps this link to Streetview will show it directly). Is there any possibility that pelicans were depicted that way in the past? -- Doncram ( talk) 09:59, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
I've been researching another topic touching on the Park and have come across a reference that suggests the pediment at the Admin building (directly east of the Hall of Springs) is in fact a creation of Attilio Piccirilli and not, as is often suggested, George Snowden. "Hygeia and Aesculapius" (this is my first entry in wikipedia so I am finding my way...)
[1] https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.177707/2015.177707.Attilio-Piccirilli-Life-Of-An-American-Sculptor_djvu.txt
LIFE OF AN AMERICAN SCULPTOR
BY JOSEF VINCENT LQMBARDO, Lltt.D. QUEENS COLLEGE PITMAN PUBLISHING CORPORATION NEW YORK CHICAGO ChrisTheOther ( talk) 21:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. This list was inspired by another editor's contention to Carptrash that "there is no such thing as a 'significant pediment'," and blanking the section he had started. Carptrash changed the section heading to "Notable pediments ...", and it was blanked again.
Other suggestions/opinions? == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 13:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
that when these are arranged chronologically they start in Philadelphia. Coincidence or . . . . . . . . . ............ something else? Carptrash ( talk) 20:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
figuring out how to link (?) the various pediments in the same building. It looks great. Also, where did you find my Tippecanoe & Tyler Too pediment? Carptrash ( talk) 18:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
Sort of funny. Even though the Women's Building was destroyed a couple of years before I was born, the image of the pediment is still one I uploaded. And I thought you were done with pediments for a while? Carptrash ( talk) 03:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
There's a lovely pediment sculpture on the Rush Rhees Library at the University of Rochester, reportedly done by a Ricci and an Ardolino, and there's another lovely pediment sculpture at the Rockfeller mansion Kykuit, credited to Francois Tonetti and perhaps finished by his wife.... are we going for a complete set? That would be a worthy useful goal. At one point a few years ago Carptrash & I counted 116 in the U.S. in total. -- Lockley ( talk) 21:59, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, do you want to limit it to
figural(?)/
figurative(?)
Figurative art sculpture? Or just require it to have something more than geometric? But there may really not be too many of all kinds. --
do
ncr
am
02:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Stopping for now. There are one or two more marginal ones in List of Masonic buildings in the United States, and I haven't checked the weirdly split-out List of former Masonic buildings in the United States. I doubt there will be many or any in List of Elks buildings, List of Woodmen of the World buildings, List of Odd Fellows buildings, etc. -- do ncr am 03:52, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
List of former Masonic buildings in the United States offers a good model for breaking it up into states (in the future). The location arrow can suffice for now. == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 16:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I can't upload images anymore, so should I start breaking this list down into states? Carptrash ( talk) 01:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hey, you guys are hitting my watchlist! I might have to start the natural anti-list. :) -- do ncr am 01:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
I am removing Triebel as a sculptor at the Illinois State Memorial in Vicksburg, MS because (1) the standard reference, Kvaran & Lockley’s Field Guide to Architectural Sculpture in the United States does not mention him and also (2) because Cooley, Adelaide N. The Monument Maker: A Biography of Frederick Ernest Triebel, The rediscovery of a forgotten American sculptor Exposition Press, Hicksville NY, 1978, does not include it. He has other work at Vicksburg, but not the Illinois Memorial. Carptrash ( talk) 02:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi @ BoringHistoryGuy: -- I'll be comparing your list to ours, and the results will emerge in good time. You're still working off a list from SIRIS, yes? I'll stand by that estimate of no more than (eh...) 150 existing pediments in the U.S. including sculpture with human figures, our working definition. Gotta draw the line somewhere. In the meantime let me offer what is probably an extreme example, the most recent in the U.S., and a lovely elaborate example from Raymond Kaskey. -- Lockley ( talk) 04:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Here are all the remaining Masonic ones, and an Elks one or two (and no contributions found from list-articles of Knights of Pythia, Knights of Columbus and other fraternities) that can be identified from photos in their list-articles. And I have scanned through the geographically-organized NRHP list-articles for states of Delaware and Rhode Island. And I have scanned all of current main List of courthouses in the United States (and split out Texas and Nebraska sublists) (but this covers just state and county and local courthouses, and many pics are yet to be uploaded to it from linked articles). Omits Federal courthouses so far in separate lists, and omits Alabama and other split out ones Note many buildings don't have photos, and this doesn't cover many buildings in historic districts. And I make mistakes, this is far from perfect review of available pics.
I signed my comments in pic captions; bhg, carptrash, anyone else can add your comments in pic captions too? -- do ncr am 18:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Not sure how the formatting for this should be, but, oy well. Carptrash ( talk) 01:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Here's another one, Elk head sculpture in pediment (or coming out from it?) at Elks Temple (Tacoma, Washington), from 1916 building designed by Ecole des Beaux Arts-educated E. Frere Champney (see page 10 in Gallacci, Caroline and Patricia A. Sias (December 23, 1977). "National Register of Historic Places Inventory/Nomination: Old City Hall Historic District". National Park Service. Retrieved December 5, 2016.). By the suggested criteria, I think but am not positive this qualifies. The building and its architect but not the specific pedimental sculpture are covered in the NRHP nomination document for the historic district that it is in. -- do ncr am 02:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Philadelphia City Hall is covered with sculptures, some draped across top of pediments (so excluded by suggested rules for this list-article), but also there are some within curved pediments above the third level on the north and south facades. -- do ncr am 21:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
file:Bleckley County Courthouse, Cochran, GA, USA.jpg (03).jpg For what it is worth, here is a closer photo of the Bleckley County courthouse. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. A big thank you to do ncr am, for reorganizing the list by location. Organizing it by building may have made sense at the beginning when we only had 11 sculptured pediments. We now have 120! (some are listed collectively in the Sculpture column). == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 15:14, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
doncram. BoringHistoryGuy. Carptrash. Another Believer. Hi everybody.... there's about 35 more pediments in the U.S. that could go on the list. Give or take.
Seven belong to buildings that have been razed, including a couple of vanished world's fairs. But at least one is important in the history, Karl Bitter's Bank of Pittsburgh. Wanted to get your opinions on whether it's fair to rule the fairs out. I think so. We could be here all day, counting the pediments at the 1895 Cotton Extravagopolus or whatever it was.
Eight are additional county courthouses: Nueces County, Texas (the weakest example), Sedgwick County, Kansas, Passaic County, New Jersey, Crawford County, Ohio, Lafayette County, Wisconsin, Sibley County, Minnesota, Utah County, Utah (a very good one), and Shelby County, Tennessee, a must-have.
And a bunch of others, the New Orleans City Hall is in there, a few banks, churches, schools, the Masonic Temple in St. Louis, etc. I'll continue to write those up. Adding all these to the existing format may (opinion) or may not be ideal. Might get long. I'll happily work with whatever you all think about splitting out sections & pages or not. All in the spirit of "oh man check that out!", and a quiet happy election day to US'ers -- Lockley ( talk) 19:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. What do you folks think of this? In my opinion, it's more a decorated gable than a pedimental sculpture. Does it belong here? == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 13:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. I deliberately left out those Broad Street Station gable reliefs by Bitter, but included his sculptured pediment over the entrance to the 15th Street tunnel that ran under the station. Bitter also did gable reliefs for the dormers of Furness's Jayne House (built for his niece Caroline and her husband).
I hope you folks have experienced the Furness Library. It is a series of thrilling spaces.
Okay, I think we're coming to a consensus: Decorated gables are (generally) not pedimental sculptures. == BoringHistoryGuy ( talk) 19:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm a novice in this area, and I am sure that architectural terms are used incorrectly from time to time in sources, but I'm sure also that Wikipedia's definitions/articles on the terms are incomplete, if not incorrect, at times too. So when the Grant County Courthouse (Ephrata, Washington)'s NRHP nomination describes what's in the "typanum" (sic) as a Roman urn and other decoration, I am unsure if that's absolutely incorrect usage or not. According to Wikipedia's tympanum (architecture), a tympanum is only over a doorway. Clearly sometimes something over a doorway is a pediment, and sometimes it is not. When exactly is something a tympanum vs. when is it a pediment? Can it be both? Is there a continuum? What about the National Academy of Sciences example, discussed previously, what is that over the doorway? It really is nice, again, but also it doesn't really look like a pediment. Is it a tympanum?
Also, the tympanum (architecture) article uses the word archivolt as the surrounding of a tympanum, in a way that seems incompatible with the perhaps-too-narrow definition of archivolt in the archivolt article. To whom am I supposed to report this? -- do nor am 22:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
I think the U.S. Customs Building listed at being at 14th St. NW & Constitution Avenue, but not wiki-linked, is the
Herbert C. Hoover Building, or part of it. On the West side of the Herbert Hoover Building, on 15th St. NW., there are FOUR pediments with sculpture that i can see in Google Maps streetview. And they are along a north-south line. Rather than there being two, with one being "eastern" and "western" as the table now describes. There are no pediments with sculptures on any other side of the building that I can see from "walking around it" using streetview. --
do
ncr
am
02:52, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Okay. Dept. of Labor, (Gurney) pediments by Sherry Fry, Albert Stewart, Wheeler Williams, Edward McCartan, and Edgar Walter. Carptrash ( talk) 02:05, 25 November 2016 (UTC) I think we have them all, I might have pics of the two not so adorned. I need to be cautious about labeling, since I have messed up a few. Carptrash ( talk) 02:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
I uploaded a couple of pictures, no problem. Then I got to the Kennedy Justice building and I uploaded two pictures, which have the names carved opn them, but I could not figure out how to do the split thing. That is to say, how to get two images for the same building. So here they are and hopefully one (or more) of you can take these pictures and put them in their respective slots. Thanks, Einar aka Carptrash ( talk) 04:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
In addition to the already-listed Buffalo History Museum, the 1901 Pan-American Exposition included a Pantheon-like "Ethnology Building" with pedimental sculpture. It had "a pediment containing McNeil’s ethnological group, forming the decorative motive of the tympanum" above each entrance. Perhaps McNeil = Hermon Atkins MacNeil? See "The Ethnology Building" by George Cary, within the Art Handbook of the exposition, page 17. I can't make out too much detail in the illustration available. Is anything else available about this?
The Temple of Music had four sculptured groups by Konti over (not inside) its four pediments, by the way. The Horticultural Group had "an ample pediment ornamented with rich decorations in relief". -- do ncr am 20:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Which is the most Trumpian? How about the western pediment of the Robert F. Kennedy Department of Justice Building, Ars boni, "for the good of the state"? :) -- do ncr am 13:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I could use help with this: the NRHP document for Opelousas Historic District describes Union Bank and Trust building at corner of S. Court and E. Bellevue in Opelousas, Louisiana as having a pelican in its pediment, and no way, IMHO, it's an eagle. See it close up in Google Streetview (perhaps this link to Streetview will show it directly). Is there any possibility that pelicans were depicted that way in the past? -- Doncram ( talk) 09:59, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
I've been researching another topic touching on the Park and have come across a reference that suggests the pediment at the Admin building (directly east of the Hall of Springs) is in fact a creation of Attilio Piccirilli and not, as is often suggested, George Snowden. "Hygeia and Aesculapius" (this is my first entry in wikipedia so I am finding my way...)
[1] https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.177707/2015.177707.Attilio-Piccirilli-Life-Of-An-American-Sculptor_djvu.txt
LIFE OF AN AMERICAN SCULPTOR
BY JOSEF VINCENT LQMBARDO, Lltt.D. QUEENS COLLEGE PITMAN PUBLISHING CORPORATION NEW YORK CHICAGO ChrisTheOther ( talk) 21:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)