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I have not been able to find any information online indicating why RUC officers shot Jordan. Such information would be helpful in giving this article a more neutral POV.
Whilst not satisfactorily explained to some, this will always be an emotive issue. That said, I find this article very POV and bordering on anti British. A re write from a more neutral perspective would be useful. WillE 17:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It was i, who at 16:41, 14 March 2007 mentioned the song in the lead. I'd like to explain my choice.
In the annotation associated with that edit i wrote: "Put emphasis on the two reasons for notability: the ECHR judgment and the song performed by Gary Og." Every article in Wikipedia should deal with a notable topic. What makes Pearse Jordan notable? Is it the circumstances of his death: an unarmed man shot in the back by a police officer? Unfortunately, these circumstances are not unique.
Jordan's notability is due in large part to what has been described as a "landmark judgment" of the ECHR in his case, which also resulted in a change to the British law book. However, Jordan's case was brought in front of the court along with those of ten other IRA men killed by British forces. The judgment was granted with respect to all these cases simultaneously. Would it be appropriate to create an article for every one of them? A reasonable alternative would be a single article about the judgment, mentioning all the eleven.
What makes Pearse Jordan's name stand out is that it has made it into popular culture via the McNally song and thanks to its performances by the apparently popular Eire Og and Gary Og. Consider, also, that it is not improbable, that some users looking for "Pearse Jordan" in Wikipedia, do so, not because they have heard of Jordan or of the ECHR case before, but rather because they have picked this melodious song up somewhere (say in YouTube), and decided to check up on the lyrics.
That's why i found it vital to mention this piece of information in the lead: to establish the notability of the article. That's also why i find it important to put links to these recordings in the "External Links" section.
Having said that, i'd like to add, that i'd suggest looking into the pros and cons of deleting this article altogether, instead incorporating just the lead paragraph in some other relevant article(s), and redirecting "Pearse Jordan" to this article. Itayb 21:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The article, in its current form, establishes that Pearse Jordan is notable for two things:
All additions to the article should be either directly relevant to these two aspects of notability, or else establish a new such aspect. Otherwise, they are irrelevant trivia, and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
The Background section, even though it is attributed, is not directly relevant to any of the above mentioned topics. Neither does it establish any new point of notability of Jordan. I therefore find it unencyclopedic and dispensable.
I'd like to make it clear, though, that these are my personal views about what a Wikipedia article should and should not contain, and my own interpretation of the NOT policy. These views are, to the best of my knowledge, not clearly and unabmiguously supported by any existing policy or guideline. In fact, see Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not directly limit article-content. Itayb 08:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
"All additions to the article should be either directly relevant to these two aspects of notability" is totally wrong. Notability, or lack thereof, of the subject establishes whether there should or shouldn't be an article. Once there is an article, aspects which are not necessarily notable in themselves are included to provide a proper exploration of the subject. This is clearly stated in Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not directly limit article-content. Also Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information is talking about whether something is valid as the main subject for an article, not about whether specific items should be included once something is valid as an article. The background section is highly relevant to the subject's life and solidly encyclopedic (assuming other factors of verification etc are sound). Tyrenius 19:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The following reference is cited twice in the article:
This reference is particularly difficult to verify:
This reference is the only source cited in the article in support of the following statements:
According to the Disputed statements guideline, "The accuracy of a statement may be a cause for concern if: [...] It contains information which is particularly difficult to verify." Accordingly, i am concerned for the accuracy of the above mentioned statements. Unless this source is replaced by a more reliable one, or else is shown to be accessible to the general public and compliant with Wikipedia's Reliable sources criteria, i will remove it along with the statements relying solely on it. Itayb 18:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
1) Vintagekits, you wrote: "Have you seen that the book is for sale on line and the link that I provided for details of its public launch!?" No, i haven't, even though i examined almost all the links you provided (Unfortunately, i did not examine the Irish News Online article you've mentioned ("Republican tribute to those who died"), since that would require me to subscribe for payment.) If you are able to provide a link supporting this assertion, you will have successfully countered my objection to the reliability of this source. I urge you to do so.
2) You wrote: "I think the fact that other established reliable sources use this book as a source quashes that argument." I agree. You've made this point very nicely. In fact, i'd like to render this point more easily verifiable, for future reference, by quoting the relevant passages from the links you provided:
(edit conflict) (Third opinion) Google Books has no record of it. [14] Internet Book List has no record of the book. [15] LibraryThing [16] and OttoBib [17] cannot locate a book of that ISBN. Froogle (UK) has no record of the book. [18] Yahoo! Shopping cannot locate the book. [19] WorldCat has no record of the book. [20] [21] COPAC has no record of the book. [22] Even Irish universities do not list the book in their catalogues. [23]
[24] [25] [26] When the book cannot be found to verify a citation, it is difficult to accept it as a reliable source. Remember, Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and if a reader cannot even find the book in any library catalogue, even in Irish university libraries, I believe the book fails as an adequate reference. I do not believe a handful of copies available for sale makes up for the widespread unavailability of the book. Vassyana 19:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)(edit conflict) Reply to Weggie: It's your interpretation and so it's not valid. Furthermore you're using inflammatory language. You know this area is a contentious one and your words are deliberately provocative. I suggest you rethink. Tyrenius 20:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I've become convinced, that the book is publicly available, and constitutes a reliable source. I thank all the editors who collaborated to establish this fact. Good work! This having been said, there's still the matter of the bias arising from recounting the baby Jordan incident, which i referred to in my comment of 00:50, 24 March 2007. Itayb 20:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
See comments to Weggie above. Kindly avoid your personal opinion. The article still reads as biased against the British army. Tyrenius 20:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
"Slán go fóill mo chara" does not translate to "Farewell, dear friend, it's not finished yet" a correct translation is "goodbye for now my friend"-- Vintagekits 12:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
In order to resolve the issue can you please explain exactly what you feel in in breach of NPOV. regards-- Vintagekits 22:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Consider the following two variation on a statement from the lead:
In my opinion, the statement should be anchored to a time reference (second option). Vintagekits, on the other hand,
holds that there is "no need for the date, it is given that its up to date and would be changed if/when an inquest was granted".
But is there reason for a reader to assume the account of current events is kept up to date? Months can go by from one revision to the next. Besides, even if an article is continuously attended to, there is no guarantee that the editors are aware of current developments that should to be reflected in the article. Even if they are aware of such development, they may have their hands tied for lack of a reliable secondary source describing these developments.
Another objection to in-lining the time reference in this particular case might be, that a reference is cited for this statement, and those interested can, in just a few clicks, check the reference's publication date. But, as Vintagekits pointed out, readers probably assume that information is kept up to date and would be changed if and when the circumstances have changed. They probably don't normally verify sources, unless the statement seems fishy for some reason.
So should we now inline a time reference for every statement? It isn't customary, it would disrupt the prose, and would be visually unappealing. Well, in my opinion, we should certainly strive to present all events and conditions in their proper chronological context. Usually, when historical events are recounted in chronological order, the time frame of most of them can be more-or-less deduced from the context. But this particual statement has the distinction, that it does not describe a historical event, but rather a current, continuous state of affairs. The timeframe cannot be inferred from the surrounding context. Itayb 09:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I introduced the present referencing system to the article, so let me explain.
I've used a hybrid of footnotes and Harvard. If one cancelled the footnotes, and instead injected their content in-line, a Harvardish referencing system would ensue, of a variation, which is quite popular in CS publications (i'm a CS student...), e.g. the popular books: "Advanced compiler design and implementation"/Steven Muchnick, "Control flow semantics"/Bakker & de Vink and "Approximation algorithms for NP-Hard problems"/Dorit Hochbaum (editor).
I used a non-standard second tier of footnotes in order to hide the (sometime long) citation from those readers who don't care a tiddly bit about attribution.
If you have a good reason to change it, do it. But i'd appreciate it, if you discussed the matter in the talk page beforehand. Itayb 17:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not standard and also not helpful to put a blanket ref statement at the top of the section, especially where it says "unless otherwise stated", and it is so stated throughout the section. The main ref needs to be put as an inline citation, wherever it is relevant. Tyrenius 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not necessary to qualify with "British", as it's in Britain, so it's not going to be the French army. This is exactly the kind of issue where Tirghra is not acceptable as a sole source. Are there any "mainstream" sources to confirm that version of events? If not, it will have to be left out. Tyrenius 01:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Soon three thousand troops were deployed in the area that was now cloaked in CS gas and littered with rubble and exploding gasoline bombs...During the six months of riots that followed, hundreds of people were injured or arrested and imprisoned; others, old and young alike, suffered from the effects of CS gas.
As with the riots in Ballymurphy the previous Easter, cannisters of CS gas were fired with even more disastrous results. The clouds of choking and suffocating gas drifted up the narrow alleyways and back streets of the warren that is the Lower Falls. The gas got everywhere, in through windows, under doors and into the residents' eyes, noses, throats and lungs.
And the place was still saturated with CS gas. Children were coughing, I remember. I'm talking now about the toddlers, kids of three, four, five. It affected everyone buts children especially.
Since, by your submission, the Tirghra account of the incident draws directly from the Jordan family, who are "people close to the situation you are writing about", it is a primary source.( Wikipedia:Attribution#Primary and secondary sources) But "Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge". (Ibid.) The description of the gas canisters incident does not meet this requirement. It is therefore in violation of the Attribution policy. Itayb 21:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It is indisputable that CS gas was being used by the British Army in Northern Ireland in 1972; numerous sources attest to it. It is also true to say that people outside the Army had CS gas: there was the famous incident when a canister of CS gas was thrown into the chamber of the House of Commons by a protester who shouted that now MPs knew what it was like in Belfast.
The only issue here is whether Tirghra is a reliable source for the fact that the British Army were responsible for putting CS gas into this particular home. To cut a long story short, I think the crucial issue here is not whether they were responsible but the fact that the family clearly thought they were, and the effect this must have had on Pearse Jordan as he was growing up. I would therefore make a minor amendment and say something like ".. almost died from the effects of a CS gas canister which had entered the home, and suffered the effects for the rest of his life. The Jordan family blamed the British Army, which used CS gas as a crowd control measure and were operating in the area at the time". That statement can, I presume, safely be sourced from Tirghra. Sam Blacketer 11:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Vk, you've been rather inaccurate using the source. There's no mention of Jordan being in the family home or a neighbour breaking in!!! Please be more careful in future. I've removed these two statements to prevent them being copied onto mirror sites (any more than they probably have been already). I think it is perfectly valid to mention this incident as it shows the environment he grew up in. I've made the point earlier that once a subject is notable, then other aspects of their life can be included for background and context. However, the account in the book has questionable statements, e.g. "flooded" and "undoubtedly saved Pierce's life". We don't know if this is true, or a tiny bit exaggerated for effect. In the current text, I would want to change "he almost died from" to "he suffered from the effects of". I can accept the rest of that passage. Tyrenius 22:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) I'll assume you know nothing about life in the Lower Falls area in the early 1970s, which is evident by your last post. Catholic children from working class areas did not have daycare. Catholic women from working class areas by and large did not work, in fact mentioning being a Catholic or living in a particular area was likely to bring a reply saying the job was not available. Catholic men had difficulty finding work, never mind women. Why his aunt's in Dublin? Surely the one in Brazil or Outer Mongolia would be equally feasible as well? A reliable source states it happened, and that's all that is needed. I assume you'll be applying this level of zeal to biographies where people claim to have lived through The Blitz, making sure that independent sources confirm that each and every person was living in the affected areas at the time? One Night In Hackney 303 21:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The state of affairs is that there are four active editors currently working on this article and participating in the associated discussion. Two of them (Vintagekits and One Night In Hackney) support the inclusion of the Gas canisters incident, whereas the other two (Tyrenius and Itay) oppose it on the grounds that the account violates both the Attribution (Reliable Source) and the NPOV policies.
An RfC was submitted five days ago, which yielded so far a single reply, supplied by Sam Blacketer. Although somewhat ambiguous, Sam Blacketer's bottom line was, to my best understanding, that he considered Tirghra a reliable source for the incident.
Were Wikipedia a democracy, a simple majority vote would suffice to tip the balance. However, Wikipedia is not a democracy. It works by establishing consensus, and such is not the case here.
Presently, Vintagikits and One Night In Hackney's view are represented in the article to the exclusion of Tyrenius and Itay's. In order to avoid edit war, a compromise should be attempted. My suggestion is that the account of the incident be kept, but that it be tagged with the Dubious tag, directing readers to the discussion. Itayb 11:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think everyone should stop accusations against other editors, so that we can maintain a civilised discussion. I am sure that everyone is sincere in their wish to maintain high standards. It is not a question of someone's views being used and someone else's not. It is a question of applying policy and guidelines. ONIH is quite correct that the same information can be used from one source, yet not from another. That's how wiki works. As I understand it, this book is published by the IRA, or someone acting as its mouthpiece, (correct me if I'm wrong) and so must be classified as a partisan source for wiki purposes, which means it must be used very carefully, particularly regarding negative implications about its opponents. Perhaps Itayb could state specifically what items he thinks are unjustified for inclusion, as it's not clear. Tyrenius 02:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Coming across the following page: [27], i became interested in the following questions:
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 19:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The phrase "Slán go fóill mo chara" actually means "Goodbye for now, my friend." The current translation is in error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.125.235 ( talk) 04:45, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
What is the source for this statement? Martinazo ( talk) 22:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC) I mean: what is the source for the statement that Pearse Jordan was a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinazo ( talk • contribs) 22:32, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
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I have not been able to find any information online indicating why RUC officers shot Jordan. Such information would be helpful in giving this article a more neutral POV.
Whilst not satisfactorily explained to some, this will always be an emotive issue. That said, I find this article very POV and bordering on anti British. A re write from a more neutral perspective would be useful. WillE 17:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It was i, who at 16:41, 14 March 2007 mentioned the song in the lead. I'd like to explain my choice.
In the annotation associated with that edit i wrote: "Put emphasis on the two reasons for notability: the ECHR judgment and the song performed by Gary Og." Every article in Wikipedia should deal with a notable topic. What makes Pearse Jordan notable? Is it the circumstances of his death: an unarmed man shot in the back by a police officer? Unfortunately, these circumstances are not unique.
Jordan's notability is due in large part to what has been described as a "landmark judgment" of the ECHR in his case, which also resulted in a change to the British law book. However, Jordan's case was brought in front of the court along with those of ten other IRA men killed by British forces. The judgment was granted with respect to all these cases simultaneously. Would it be appropriate to create an article for every one of them? A reasonable alternative would be a single article about the judgment, mentioning all the eleven.
What makes Pearse Jordan's name stand out is that it has made it into popular culture via the McNally song and thanks to its performances by the apparently popular Eire Og and Gary Og. Consider, also, that it is not improbable, that some users looking for "Pearse Jordan" in Wikipedia, do so, not because they have heard of Jordan or of the ECHR case before, but rather because they have picked this melodious song up somewhere (say in YouTube), and decided to check up on the lyrics.
That's why i found it vital to mention this piece of information in the lead: to establish the notability of the article. That's also why i find it important to put links to these recordings in the "External Links" section.
Having said that, i'd like to add, that i'd suggest looking into the pros and cons of deleting this article altogether, instead incorporating just the lead paragraph in some other relevant article(s), and redirecting "Pearse Jordan" to this article. Itayb 21:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The article, in its current form, establishes that Pearse Jordan is notable for two things:
All additions to the article should be either directly relevant to these two aspects of notability, or else establish a new such aspect. Otherwise, they are irrelevant trivia, and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
The Background section, even though it is attributed, is not directly relevant to any of the above mentioned topics. Neither does it establish any new point of notability of Jordan. I therefore find it unencyclopedic and dispensable.
I'd like to make it clear, though, that these are my personal views about what a Wikipedia article should and should not contain, and my own interpretation of the NOT policy. These views are, to the best of my knowledge, not clearly and unabmiguously supported by any existing policy or guideline. In fact, see Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not directly limit article-content. Itayb 08:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
"All additions to the article should be either directly relevant to these two aspects of notability" is totally wrong. Notability, or lack thereof, of the subject establishes whether there should or shouldn't be an article. Once there is an article, aspects which are not necessarily notable in themselves are included to provide a proper exploration of the subject. This is clearly stated in Wikipedia:Notability#Notability guidelines do not directly limit article-content. Also Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information is talking about whether something is valid as the main subject for an article, not about whether specific items should be included once something is valid as an article. The background section is highly relevant to the subject's life and solidly encyclopedic (assuming other factors of verification etc are sound). Tyrenius 19:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The following reference is cited twice in the article:
This reference is particularly difficult to verify:
This reference is the only source cited in the article in support of the following statements:
According to the Disputed statements guideline, "The accuracy of a statement may be a cause for concern if: [...] It contains information which is particularly difficult to verify." Accordingly, i am concerned for the accuracy of the above mentioned statements. Unless this source is replaced by a more reliable one, or else is shown to be accessible to the general public and compliant with Wikipedia's Reliable sources criteria, i will remove it along with the statements relying solely on it. Itayb 18:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
1) Vintagekits, you wrote: "Have you seen that the book is for sale on line and the link that I provided for details of its public launch!?" No, i haven't, even though i examined almost all the links you provided (Unfortunately, i did not examine the Irish News Online article you've mentioned ("Republican tribute to those who died"), since that would require me to subscribe for payment.) If you are able to provide a link supporting this assertion, you will have successfully countered my objection to the reliability of this source. I urge you to do so.
2) You wrote: "I think the fact that other established reliable sources use this book as a source quashes that argument." I agree. You've made this point very nicely. In fact, i'd like to render this point more easily verifiable, for future reference, by quoting the relevant passages from the links you provided:
(edit conflict) (Third opinion) Google Books has no record of it. [14] Internet Book List has no record of the book. [15] LibraryThing [16] and OttoBib [17] cannot locate a book of that ISBN. Froogle (UK) has no record of the book. [18] Yahoo! Shopping cannot locate the book. [19] WorldCat has no record of the book. [20] [21] COPAC has no record of the book. [22] Even Irish universities do not list the book in their catalogues. [23]
[24] [25] [26] When the book cannot be found to verify a citation, it is difficult to accept it as a reliable source. Remember, Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and if a reader cannot even find the book in any library catalogue, even in Irish university libraries, I believe the book fails as an adequate reference. I do not believe a handful of copies available for sale makes up for the widespread unavailability of the book. Vassyana 19:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)(edit conflict) Reply to Weggie: It's your interpretation and so it's not valid. Furthermore you're using inflammatory language. You know this area is a contentious one and your words are deliberately provocative. I suggest you rethink. Tyrenius 20:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I've become convinced, that the book is publicly available, and constitutes a reliable source. I thank all the editors who collaborated to establish this fact. Good work! This having been said, there's still the matter of the bias arising from recounting the baby Jordan incident, which i referred to in my comment of 00:50, 24 March 2007. Itayb 20:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
See comments to Weggie above. Kindly avoid your personal opinion. The article still reads as biased against the British army. Tyrenius 20:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
"Slán go fóill mo chara" does not translate to "Farewell, dear friend, it's not finished yet" a correct translation is "goodbye for now my friend"-- Vintagekits 12:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
In order to resolve the issue can you please explain exactly what you feel in in breach of NPOV. regards-- Vintagekits 22:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Consider the following two variation on a statement from the lead:
In my opinion, the statement should be anchored to a time reference (second option). Vintagekits, on the other hand,
holds that there is "no need for the date, it is given that its up to date and would be changed if/when an inquest was granted".
But is there reason for a reader to assume the account of current events is kept up to date? Months can go by from one revision to the next. Besides, even if an article is continuously attended to, there is no guarantee that the editors are aware of current developments that should to be reflected in the article. Even if they are aware of such development, they may have their hands tied for lack of a reliable secondary source describing these developments.
Another objection to in-lining the time reference in this particular case might be, that a reference is cited for this statement, and those interested can, in just a few clicks, check the reference's publication date. But, as Vintagekits pointed out, readers probably assume that information is kept up to date and would be changed if and when the circumstances have changed. They probably don't normally verify sources, unless the statement seems fishy for some reason.
So should we now inline a time reference for every statement? It isn't customary, it would disrupt the prose, and would be visually unappealing. Well, in my opinion, we should certainly strive to present all events and conditions in their proper chronological context. Usually, when historical events are recounted in chronological order, the time frame of most of them can be more-or-less deduced from the context. But this particual statement has the distinction, that it does not describe a historical event, but rather a current, continuous state of affairs. The timeframe cannot be inferred from the surrounding context. Itayb 09:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I introduced the present referencing system to the article, so let me explain.
I've used a hybrid of footnotes and Harvard. If one cancelled the footnotes, and instead injected their content in-line, a Harvardish referencing system would ensue, of a variation, which is quite popular in CS publications (i'm a CS student...), e.g. the popular books: "Advanced compiler design and implementation"/Steven Muchnick, "Control flow semantics"/Bakker & de Vink and "Approximation algorithms for NP-Hard problems"/Dorit Hochbaum (editor).
I used a non-standard second tier of footnotes in order to hide the (sometime long) citation from those readers who don't care a tiddly bit about attribution.
If you have a good reason to change it, do it. But i'd appreciate it, if you discussed the matter in the talk page beforehand. Itayb 17:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not standard and also not helpful to put a blanket ref statement at the top of the section, especially where it says "unless otherwise stated", and it is so stated throughout the section. The main ref needs to be put as an inline citation, wherever it is relevant. Tyrenius 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
It is not necessary to qualify with "British", as it's in Britain, so it's not going to be the French army. This is exactly the kind of issue where Tirghra is not acceptable as a sole source. Are there any "mainstream" sources to confirm that version of events? If not, it will have to be left out. Tyrenius 01:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Soon three thousand troops were deployed in the area that was now cloaked in CS gas and littered with rubble and exploding gasoline bombs...During the six months of riots that followed, hundreds of people were injured or arrested and imprisoned; others, old and young alike, suffered from the effects of CS gas.
As with the riots in Ballymurphy the previous Easter, cannisters of CS gas were fired with even more disastrous results. The clouds of choking and suffocating gas drifted up the narrow alleyways and back streets of the warren that is the Lower Falls. The gas got everywhere, in through windows, under doors and into the residents' eyes, noses, throats and lungs.
And the place was still saturated with CS gas. Children were coughing, I remember. I'm talking now about the toddlers, kids of three, four, five. It affected everyone buts children especially.
Since, by your submission, the Tirghra account of the incident draws directly from the Jordan family, who are "people close to the situation you are writing about", it is a primary source.( Wikipedia:Attribution#Primary and secondary sources) But "Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge". (Ibid.) The description of the gas canisters incident does not meet this requirement. It is therefore in violation of the Attribution policy. Itayb 21:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It is indisputable that CS gas was being used by the British Army in Northern Ireland in 1972; numerous sources attest to it. It is also true to say that people outside the Army had CS gas: there was the famous incident when a canister of CS gas was thrown into the chamber of the House of Commons by a protester who shouted that now MPs knew what it was like in Belfast.
The only issue here is whether Tirghra is a reliable source for the fact that the British Army were responsible for putting CS gas into this particular home. To cut a long story short, I think the crucial issue here is not whether they were responsible but the fact that the family clearly thought they were, and the effect this must have had on Pearse Jordan as he was growing up. I would therefore make a minor amendment and say something like ".. almost died from the effects of a CS gas canister which had entered the home, and suffered the effects for the rest of his life. The Jordan family blamed the British Army, which used CS gas as a crowd control measure and were operating in the area at the time". That statement can, I presume, safely be sourced from Tirghra. Sam Blacketer 11:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Vk, you've been rather inaccurate using the source. There's no mention of Jordan being in the family home or a neighbour breaking in!!! Please be more careful in future. I've removed these two statements to prevent them being copied onto mirror sites (any more than they probably have been already). I think it is perfectly valid to mention this incident as it shows the environment he grew up in. I've made the point earlier that once a subject is notable, then other aspects of their life can be included for background and context. However, the account in the book has questionable statements, e.g. "flooded" and "undoubtedly saved Pierce's life". We don't know if this is true, or a tiny bit exaggerated for effect. In the current text, I would want to change "he almost died from" to "he suffered from the effects of". I can accept the rest of that passage. Tyrenius 22:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) I'll assume you know nothing about life in the Lower Falls area in the early 1970s, which is evident by your last post. Catholic children from working class areas did not have daycare. Catholic women from working class areas by and large did not work, in fact mentioning being a Catholic or living in a particular area was likely to bring a reply saying the job was not available. Catholic men had difficulty finding work, never mind women. Why his aunt's in Dublin? Surely the one in Brazil or Outer Mongolia would be equally feasible as well? A reliable source states it happened, and that's all that is needed. I assume you'll be applying this level of zeal to biographies where people claim to have lived through The Blitz, making sure that independent sources confirm that each and every person was living in the affected areas at the time? One Night In Hackney 303 21:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The state of affairs is that there are four active editors currently working on this article and participating in the associated discussion. Two of them (Vintagekits and One Night In Hackney) support the inclusion of the Gas canisters incident, whereas the other two (Tyrenius and Itay) oppose it on the grounds that the account violates both the Attribution (Reliable Source) and the NPOV policies.
An RfC was submitted five days ago, which yielded so far a single reply, supplied by Sam Blacketer. Although somewhat ambiguous, Sam Blacketer's bottom line was, to my best understanding, that he considered Tirghra a reliable source for the incident.
Were Wikipedia a democracy, a simple majority vote would suffice to tip the balance. However, Wikipedia is not a democracy. It works by establishing consensus, and such is not the case here.
Presently, Vintagikits and One Night In Hackney's view are represented in the article to the exclusion of Tyrenius and Itay's. In order to avoid edit war, a compromise should be attempted. My suggestion is that the account of the incident be kept, but that it be tagged with the Dubious tag, directing readers to the discussion. Itayb 11:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think everyone should stop accusations against other editors, so that we can maintain a civilised discussion. I am sure that everyone is sincere in their wish to maintain high standards. It is not a question of someone's views being used and someone else's not. It is a question of applying policy and guidelines. ONIH is quite correct that the same information can be used from one source, yet not from another. That's how wiki works. As I understand it, this book is published by the IRA, or someone acting as its mouthpiece, (correct me if I'm wrong) and so must be classified as a partisan source for wiki purposes, which means it must be used very carefully, particularly regarding negative implications about its opponents. Perhaps Itayb could state specifically what items he thinks are unjustified for inclusion, as it's not clear. Tyrenius 02:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Coming across the following page: [27], i became interested in the following questions:
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 19:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The phrase "Slán go fóill mo chara" actually means "Goodbye for now, my friend." The current translation is in error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.125.235 ( talk) 04:45, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
What is the source for this statement? Martinazo ( talk) 22:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC) I mean: what is the source for the statement that Pearse Jordan was a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinazo ( talk • contribs) 22:32, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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