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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
In the opening line, what is (☮ U+262E) supposed to display? In my browser (IE6), it displays a square and the jumble U+262E. What is it supposed to look like? Is there a way to fix it? — Frecklefoot 17:24, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There are more peace symbols than this one.. Shouldn't we discuss olive branches, doves etc. in this article? [[User:Sverdrup|
❝Sverdrup❞]] 02:27, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What about the hand sign for peace using two fingers. Does anyone know the origin of that? Is it related to V-for-victory? --
Carl 05:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The original peace symbol did not have the fourth spoke (at 6 o'clock). It kinda looks like the Mercedes symbol, except the 12 o'clock spoke was longer than the two lower spokes. Also, Mercedes spokes are tapered, the peace sign spokes are straight.
I think the article should mention the original three-spoke peace sign. Jigen III 06:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The peace symbol as shown on this page is actually the symbol of death. The peace symbol has the three spokes pointing to 12 o'clock (opposite to death symbol). The tree of life. It was altered as the death symbol configuration was more popular, the true peace configuration forgotten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.197.234.61 ( talk) 21:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
The original drawings by Gerald Holtom, which are now in Bradford, show that this is not the case. Howard Clark ( talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed B. Mistler 18:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmistler ( talk • contribs)
The first I've seen of the "peace sign" not including the fourth spoke has been during the last few years. I assumed the people displaying it in that form were simply ... whatever the symbology counterpart would be to "illiterate." I especially love the three-spoke versions that I've seen that were upside-down. Those are a hoot and a half. McGehee ( talk) 02:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this have the anti-war template?
Furthermore, shouldn't we have an image showing the original N an D symbols, for comparison with the 'unified' modern peace symbol?
The "peace flag" section is quite poorly written. I have made some small grammatical changes but it needs a larger overhaul. In particular the portion discussing the symbolism of the rainbow (especially the phrase "pacific coexistence of people" which, if it makes sense, should be elaborated on - as of now I have no idea what it means) is badly constucted. Also, the discussion of the manufacturer of the flag should refer more directly to the circumstances which led to such a massive increase in production. Or perhaps the whole section should be rewritten in a more chronological fashion, first talking about the history and symbology of the flag, THEN discussing it's recent rise in popularity. -- Chad
A point I believe should be added about the "broken cross" or "N-D" symbol is the mild dislike to strong hatred of this symbol by Vietnam-era military veterans, especially those who served in 'Nam (as I did). The protests marches and demonstrations by persons who carried and wore this symbol encouraged the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army to keep fighting. Many veterans believe that had those protests and demonstrations not taken place, the war could have ended sooner, and fewer U.S. military would have died. Thus, for many Vietnam veterans, this peace sign is a reminder of those extra lives lost--some being relatives and comrades-in-arms--and the encouragement of enemies of the United States. -- F.W.R., SMSgt, USAF (Ret'd) 71.186.105.236 ( talk) 00:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I always understood the symbol to emblematic of a foot of a dove. Perhaps I'm way off base there. YearginSM 06:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have a picture of it? Isn't that a sign of peace as well? It's used in WP:KC among other things. Borisblue 05:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
{{ unreferenced}} The fact that the symbol resembles a bird's foot in a circle gave rise to alternative interpretations, ranging from plain mockery of " crow's foot" and "The Footprint of the American Chicken" (suggesting that peace activists were cowards) to a number of occult meanings.
Conspiracy theorists believe that the symbol is one symbol among many that has a different meaning to the inscrutable elite than it has to the general public. Some believe it is an ancient symbol designating hatred toward Christians, from Emperor Nero, who crucified the Apostle Peter upside-down, hence it is a symbol of an inverted cross. The Nero's cross has also been recognized as a "mockery" of christianity, as it is thought to represent a broken, upside down cross, within a circle representing "Nero's vision". It is thought that Nero believed that the destruction of Christianity and all Christians would bring peace. It has even been rumored that the proliferation of the sign was on-part due to a Soviet conspiracy to encourage the sign which had a hidden anti-christian design (an objective part of the Soviet goals).
It has also been called a relative of the Nazi swastika – or the rune algiz inverted, said to mean "hidden danger". It resembles the rune calc.
An inverted peace symbol could also be seen as stylized image of the female pubic region.
By the way, the Cross of St. Peter is a perfectly legitimate traditional Christian symbol, but it has come to be used by some anti-Christians, and some Christians are suspicious of it (or symbols similar to it) when used in a non-Christian context... AnonMoos 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a teacher that went crazy when I used the peace sign... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.112.228 ( talk) 02:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Monsignor Bruce Kent says he was at the meeting where they approved the logo based on the semaphore for N and D, and I for one believe him. There seems to be some kind of myth, particularly prevalent in America, that this is some kind of pre-Christian peace symbol. It isn't, it's the CND symbol.
NO. BRUCE WAS NOT THERE.
I think that Bruce might have said "I know some of the people at the meeting ...", he certainly was not there as he didn't really get involved in the peace movement until much later, the war in Biafra, I think.
The nuclear disarmament was first adopted by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, the initiators of the first Aldermaston march, and later was taken up by CND. Michael Randle, chairperson of the Direct Action Committee, recalls that Harry Mister - the business manager of Peace News and of Housmans Bookshop and who died in 2006 - was not convinced by the design, arguing that it would mean anything to ordinary people. To which Hugh Brock replied, "this movement is going to be so big that everyone will know this symbol".
There were close contacts between Brock and US anti-nuclear activists at this time. As
Bayard Rustin took part in the first Aldermaston march, I think it is likely that he was one of the people to introduce the symbol to the USA.
Howard Clark (
talk)
13:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The 1958 Easter march, planned by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War and supported by the newly-formed Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, was from Trafalgar Square to Aldermaston. There was no march to Canterbury, and I don't know if the idea was ever mooted.
An accurate account of various peace symbols can be found in editorial matter in the 2007 Housmans Peace Diary. Howard Clark ( talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The introductory article in the Housmans Peace Diary 2007 is on Symbols of Peace. It lists the follow symbols: Dove Olive Branch Broken Rifle White Poppy ND symbol or Peace Sign
I'm sure that Housmans would be very pleased for some of this material to be used here (and I say that as a former board member of Housmans). Howard Clark ( talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Apparantly an identical or nearly identical symbol was used as the insignia for Germany's 3rd Panzer Division circa 1943. Can somebody confirm that for me? - Toptomcat 00:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to add a mention of this to the article? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Yahoo news links are gone after a few months. Here is the New York Times abstract:
Oops, added the citation before reading the talk page. Feel free to remove or edit as you like (not that you need my permission). My two cents... I think it should be at least cited as the "controversy" is already alluded to in the text of the article but it's a little light on references. New 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know why the Antagonism section is called that? Wouldn't "Spurious Histories of the Peace Sign" be better?
Also, why have white doves become the peace symbol? Does white symbolize peace? -- DBlomgren 02:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a picture of a lighted peace symbol upon the suggestion of a friend. The picture is one that I took of myself modeling the lighted peace symbol that I designed and constructed. I have licenced it under the GPL license. -- Allyn 01:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the photo from this talk page as the discussion has reached a conlusion and its presence here violates Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Self-promotion. Allyn is the designer of the clothes in the photo and requests commissions via his personal web site. RP Bravo 07:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted an apparent vandalism where someone had replaced the entire article with just 'peace sign'. -- Allyn 02:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Does somebody have a source for the peace symbol being based on two semaphore signs? Given that the discussion above states that the original form of it lacked one of the spokes, this seems an unlikely source for the symbol, espescially given the pre-existing runic traditions. Sounds very much like a "backronym". -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 07:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Neil is completely wrong and has taken it upon himself to promote this here. He is notorious for vandalizing this page with the semaphore lie. If you are interesting in the actual truth below then read the following: During the early protest in the 1950’s in England the word Nuclear was not used, Atomic was the only word used then, there is absolutely no connection to any semaphore signal of ND; the peach symbol was actually circle place around the sign that was seen throughout the English country side, the one for strategic bomber fields. The Intercontinental Ballistic Missile did not yet exist; the delivery system for Atomic weapons then was the strategic bomber. The US placed several bases throughout the UK and Europe for this purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.206.187.61 ( talk) 20:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The "ND semaphore" explanation was widely promulgated in printed books during the 1970's, so it's hardly a simple "lie" (whether or not it turns out to be true). AnonMoos ( talk) 21:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added information which resolves the Semaphore debate. It is referenced in detail on the CND page and is a first hand account from Hugh Brock (Peace News). I think it should end all debate in this regard. Aimulti ( talk) 07:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If a lower-case "n" is drawn as an inverted "v" and put between "C" and "D", they can be moved together to make the symbol. 84.71.146.64 ( talk) 20:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Should be an illustration or photo of this... AnonMoos 11:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
AnonMoos 11:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This sentence: "However, Holtom, a conscientious objector during the Second World War, subverted this use of semaphores by placing the D over the N, the "upside down logo" signifying his anti-military principles" makes no sense to me. The symbol is two dimensional; how can it have one element placed over the other? How does a D over an N make it upside down? There's no subversion of the two semaphore elements. Even though this is exactly what the referenced source says, I think it should be deleted from the article. It's confused, it's unclear, and the source doesn't explain it further. Binksternet ( talk) 14:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I feel it's worth mentioning, the peace symbol just happens to look identical to the old norse/germanic rune algiz. Would it be possible to say something about this? 71.57.11.208 ( talk) 17:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://dynamisimmortal.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/peace-and-love_pre.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dynamisimmortal.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/peace-and-love-freebie/&usg=__haEAvP9KLVT9WS2tAq5Z5QxjuaU=&h=400&w=400&sz=56&hl=en&start=10&sig2=3RcKLJjx1-QBCn1pIRyn1w&tbnid=dYHgJJjvGzEXeM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpeace%2Bsigns%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den&ei=aBrFSaqwCoLYsAOl1unsBg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.202.238 ( talk) 16:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose rename -- there's not one single peace symbol, and never has been. The name of the analogous article LGBT symbols is also plural because of this reason. AnonMoos ( talk) 23:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does this section open up with a reference to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam? Historically, this section should begin with the peace symbol of the olive tree in Greek culture, move on to the Jews, then the Christians and the Muslims. Strangely, the Greeks appear at the end of this section. Viriditas ( talk) 03:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
From what I can tell, in Christianity, it is the olive branch that is seen as a symbol of peace, not the dove. Augustine of Hippo was one of the first to popularize this interpretation. Please show otherwise. This means that the Greek symbols predate the interpretations in this article. Now, considering that Augustine was heavily influenced by the Greek philosopher Plotinus, I think this is open and shut. Viriditas ( talk) 14:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The dove requires its own section and has its own history as a symbol of peace, even though there is some obvious relationship with the olive branch section. Pablo Picasso greatly popularized its use in the mid-20th century and the image of "doves" and "hawks" came out of the Cuban Missile Crisis and was used throughout the Vietnam War. In Japan, a dove with a sword is also a symbol of peace. (Safire 2008) Viriditas ( talk) 14:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
It is an upside down cross which is to show disrespect to Christ and it is also a broken cross - not being total horizontal. Simuliar to a swastika which is also an anti christian symbol being a broken croww. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.53.218 ( talk) 03:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
i have been hearing that peace signs are something to do with the devil is that true ? if so i will not allow my children to wear peace stuff .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.21.150.39 ( talk) 00:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Past Uses doesn't cite any sources and it appears opinionated. Please correct this. 130.254.154.177 ( talk) 16:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The section on the other uses of the symbol, which is written in the voice of a person attacking the original story of how the symbol came to be, comes across as crackpot screed. Why is this in the article at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.142.227 ( talk) 19:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I have rolled back the changes made by [ [2]]. The history of this page shows that they have attempted to vandalize this page on multiple occasions. Request a block be implemented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kisama ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand why the Broken Rifle is not included here, and therefore have added it. Howard Clark ( talk) 00:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
[3] -- WhiteInKnights ( talk) 17:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I included a subsection with the more ancient history. 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 17:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The section entitled "The peace sign" beginning with the sentence, "The internationally recognized symbol for peace was originally designed for the British nuclear disarmament movement," continues on referring to a symbol, but there is no image of this symbol beside it. The image "The Peace symbol, originally the symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament" is instead up near the introduction, "A peace symbol is a representation or object that has come to symbolize peace..."
I think it would be better to move that image down, so it is beside the appropriate text which refers to it.
"Pij" ( talk) 01:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
This may be the most deceptive and most intentionally poorly written article on all of Wikipedia. Kudos to the authors if this is what they were going for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.251.63 ( talk) 06:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed this "Older uses" section:
Use during WWII by 3rd Panzer Division (Germany) of a symbol with the exact same appearance seems to be a parallel development not at all related to nuclear disarmament. Their original logo combined simply took on the characteristic Crows Foot shape. They likely chose it because the symbol itself is a Teutonic death rune, or the inverse of the forked cross (a symbol of life), [1] [2] to this use, many such symbols were found on Nazi graves and called The Dead Man Rune. [3] [4]
The Symbol itself has nothing to do with evil or satanism, but over time demonization of pagan beliefs by the Catholic Church as well as its use in WWII have branded the symbol with bad connotation. Due to this, many proponents of the peace sign believe that the history of the peace sign was "manufactured" to cast bad light on the nuclear disarmament movement, when in fact it is only a massive coincidence. (source?) Political interpretation or argumented fact?
It is all highly speculative and poorly sourced - a high school assignment PDF is not a reliable source! Someone had already flagged it as having problematic sources: as such it should not stand in the article. 82.32.238.139 ( talk) 10:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to set up automatic archiving of this talk page because there's far too much info; any discussion older than 30 days will be automatically moved to archives. If anyone objects, please let me know. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
This section has no citations and some of it is dubious. For example, "Date palms are signs of peace and plenty in Judaism." This is repeated elsewhere in Wikipedia, but I am not aware of any evidence for it. On the contrary, in the Hebrew Bible and other ancient books, e.g. Maccabees, it has connotations of victory in battle. I will leave it for a bit, but if no sources can be provided I will delete it. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
This section has a photo from 2003. As this peace gesture originated in the 1960s, an earlier picture would be preferable. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I've marked as dubious the claim that Franco Belsito was asked to make millions of flags. The links are dead, Franco Belsito is not mentioned in the entry Bandiere della Pace on Italian Wikipedia and Googling his name produces nothing. Unless better sourced I will delete. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I have linked to a picture of the peace sign's first use on the 1958 march to Aldermaston. Although the website marks it as in the public domain, I don't think the documentation would satisfy Wikipedia, so I can't upload it. A pity, as it is a very nice picture and of some historical importance. Marshall46 ( talk) 10:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I tidied this section and removed, "The motif can also represent "hope for peace" and even a peace offering from one person to another, as in the phrase "extend an olive branch". [5] Wise Geek is a pretty random source and doesn't actually say anything about "hope for peace".
What is the origin of this peace symbol? The section gives the story of Noah's dove, but nowhere does the Bible say that it represents peace. The Greek reference given says nothing about peace either and the Roman reference says nothing about the dove. If no source can be given for this symbolism in Jewish, Christian, Greek and Roman culture, I will remove it. Picasso's drawings of the dove and olive branch for the peace movement in the 1940s did a lot to promote the symbol. That should be mentioned. Marshall46 ( talk) 14:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I have put in a 3rd/4th century Christian picture of a dove and branch from the Catacomb of Priscilla. I would have preferred to put in this unambiguous image of the same period of a dove and branch next to the word "peace" in Greek, but there are copyright problems. Marshall46 ( talk) 11:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
"Shalom" and "salaam" are the Hebrew and Arabic words for peace, they are not peace symbols. The passage about Mosh ben Ari's song, "Od yavo shalom aleinu" is particularly irrelevant. I have deleted this section . Marshall46 ( talk) 20:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Please note that I moved the info being added to the lead into the main body of the text. I changed the wording so that it is sourced and NPOV. We cannot assert as a fact that the symbol is Satanic, as this is the opinion of only some people. Note, especially, that it directly contradicts what the designer himself stated the symbol means, as well as other reliable sources. Nonetheless, we can certainly include that interpretation. In order to consolidate the info, I moved it to a new subsection along with the John Birch Society interpretations. But this is a minority interpretation, and thus does not belong in the lead. If you have concerns with this move of the info, please discuss here--do not continue to just insert the same text without discussion. Thanks~ Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
WiseGeek
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
In the opening line, what is (☮ U+262E) supposed to display? In my browser (IE6), it displays a square and the jumble U+262E. What is it supposed to look like? Is there a way to fix it? — Frecklefoot 17:24, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There are more peace symbols than this one.. Shouldn't we discuss olive branches, doves etc. in this article? [[User:Sverdrup|
❝Sverdrup❞]] 02:27, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What about the hand sign for peace using two fingers. Does anyone know the origin of that? Is it related to V-for-victory? --
Carl 05:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The original peace symbol did not have the fourth spoke (at 6 o'clock). It kinda looks like the Mercedes symbol, except the 12 o'clock spoke was longer than the two lower spokes. Also, Mercedes spokes are tapered, the peace sign spokes are straight.
I think the article should mention the original three-spoke peace sign. Jigen III 06:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The peace symbol as shown on this page is actually the symbol of death. The peace symbol has the three spokes pointing to 12 o'clock (opposite to death symbol). The tree of life. It was altered as the death symbol configuration was more popular, the true peace configuration forgotten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.197.234.61 ( talk) 21:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
The original drawings by Gerald Holtom, which are now in Bradford, show that this is not the case. Howard Clark ( talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed B. Mistler 18:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmistler ( talk • contribs)
The first I've seen of the "peace sign" not including the fourth spoke has been during the last few years. I assumed the people displaying it in that form were simply ... whatever the symbology counterpart would be to "illiterate." I especially love the three-spoke versions that I've seen that were upside-down. Those are a hoot and a half. McGehee ( talk) 02:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this have the anti-war template?
Furthermore, shouldn't we have an image showing the original N an D symbols, for comparison with the 'unified' modern peace symbol?
The "peace flag" section is quite poorly written. I have made some small grammatical changes but it needs a larger overhaul. In particular the portion discussing the symbolism of the rainbow (especially the phrase "pacific coexistence of people" which, if it makes sense, should be elaborated on - as of now I have no idea what it means) is badly constucted. Also, the discussion of the manufacturer of the flag should refer more directly to the circumstances which led to such a massive increase in production. Or perhaps the whole section should be rewritten in a more chronological fashion, first talking about the history and symbology of the flag, THEN discussing it's recent rise in popularity. -- Chad
A point I believe should be added about the "broken cross" or "N-D" symbol is the mild dislike to strong hatred of this symbol by Vietnam-era military veterans, especially those who served in 'Nam (as I did). The protests marches and demonstrations by persons who carried and wore this symbol encouraged the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army to keep fighting. Many veterans believe that had those protests and demonstrations not taken place, the war could have ended sooner, and fewer U.S. military would have died. Thus, for many Vietnam veterans, this peace sign is a reminder of those extra lives lost--some being relatives and comrades-in-arms--and the encouragement of enemies of the United States. -- F.W.R., SMSgt, USAF (Ret'd) 71.186.105.236 ( talk) 00:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I always understood the symbol to emblematic of a foot of a dove. Perhaps I'm way off base there. YearginSM 06:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have a picture of it? Isn't that a sign of peace as well? It's used in WP:KC among other things. Borisblue 05:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
{{ unreferenced}} The fact that the symbol resembles a bird's foot in a circle gave rise to alternative interpretations, ranging from plain mockery of " crow's foot" and "The Footprint of the American Chicken" (suggesting that peace activists were cowards) to a number of occult meanings.
Conspiracy theorists believe that the symbol is one symbol among many that has a different meaning to the inscrutable elite than it has to the general public. Some believe it is an ancient symbol designating hatred toward Christians, from Emperor Nero, who crucified the Apostle Peter upside-down, hence it is a symbol of an inverted cross. The Nero's cross has also been recognized as a "mockery" of christianity, as it is thought to represent a broken, upside down cross, within a circle representing "Nero's vision". It is thought that Nero believed that the destruction of Christianity and all Christians would bring peace. It has even been rumored that the proliferation of the sign was on-part due to a Soviet conspiracy to encourage the sign which had a hidden anti-christian design (an objective part of the Soviet goals).
It has also been called a relative of the Nazi swastika – or the rune algiz inverted, said to mean "hidden danger". It resembles the rune calc.
An inverted peace symbol could also be seen as stylized image of the female pubic region.
By the way, the Cross of St. Peter is a perfectly legitimate traditional Christian symbol, but it has come to be used by some anti-Christians, and some Christians are suspicious of it (or symbols similar to it) when used in a non-Christian context... AnonMoos 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a teacher that went crazy when I used the peace sign... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.112.228 ( talk) 02:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Monsignor Bruce Kent says he was at the meeting where they approved the logo based on the semaphore for N and D, and I for one believe him. There seems to be some kind of myth, particularly prevalent in America, that this is some kind of pre-Christian peace symbol. It isn't, it's the CND symbol.
NO. BRUCE WAS NOT THERE.
I think that Bruce might have said "I know some of the people at the meeting ...", he certainly was not there as he didn't really get involved in the peace movement until much later, the war in Biafra, I think.
The nuclear disarmament was first adopted by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, the initiators of the first Aldermaston march, and later was taken up by CND. Michael Randle, chairperson of the Direct Action Committee, recalls that Harry Mister - the business manager of Peace News and of Housmans Bookshop and who died in 2006 - was not convinced by the design, arguing that it would mean anything to ordinary people. To which Hugh Brock replied, "this movement is going to be so big that everyone will know this symbol".
There were close contacts between Brock and US anti-nuclear activists at this time. As
Bayard Rustin took part in the first Aldermaston march, I think it is likely that he was one of the people to introduce the symbol to the USA.
Howard Clark (
talk)
13:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The 1958 Easter march, planned by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War and supported by the newly-formed Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, was from Trafalgar Square to Aldermaston. There was no march to Canterbury, and I don't know if the idea was ever mooted.
An accurate account of various peace symbols can be found in editorial matter in the 2007 Housmans Peace Diary. Howard Clark ( talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The introductory article in the Housmans Peace Diary 2007 is on Symbols of Peace. It lists the follow symbols: Dove Olive Branch Broken Rifle White Poppy ND symbol or Peace Sign
I'm sure that Housmans would be very pleased for some of this material to be used here (and I say that as a former board member of Housmans). Howard Clark ( talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Apparantly an identical or nearly identical symbol was used as the insignia for Germany's 3rd Panzer Division circa 1943. Can somebody confirm that for me? - Toptomcat 00:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to add a mention of this to the article? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Yahoo news links are gone after a few months. Here is the New York Times abstract:
Oops, added the citation before reading the talk page. Feel free to remove or edit as you like (not that you need my permission). My two cents... I think it should be at least cited as the "controversy" is already alluded to in the text of the article but it's a little light on references. New 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know why the Antagonism section is called that? Wouldn't "Spurious Histories of the Peace Sign" be better?
Also, why have white doves become the peace symbol? Does white symbolize peace? -- DBlomgren 02:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a picture of a lighted peace symbol upon the suggestion of a friend. The picture is one that I took of myself modeling the lighted peace symbol that I designed and constructed. I have licenced it under the GPL license. -- Allyn 01:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the photo from this talk page as the discussion has reached a conlusion and its presence here violates Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Self-promotion. Allyn is the designer of the clothes in the photo and requests commissions via his personal web site. RP Bravo 07:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted an apparent vandalism where someone had replaced the entire article with just 'peace sign'. -- Allyn 02:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Does somebody have a source for the peace symbol being based on two semaphore signs? Given that the discussion above states that the original form of it lacked one of the spokes, this seems an unlikely source for the symbol, espescially given the pre-existing runic traditions. Sounds very much like a "backronym". -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 07:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Neil is completely wrong and has taken it upon himself to promote this here. He is notorious for vandalizing this page with the semaphore lie. If you are interesting in the actual truth below then read the following: During the early protest in the 1950’s in England the word Nuclear was not used, Atomic was the only word used then, there is absolutely no connection to any semaphore signal of ND; the peach symbol was actually circle place around the sign that was seen throughout the English country side, the one for strategic bomber fields. The Intercontinental Ballistic Missile did not yet exist; the delivery system for Atomic weapons then was the strategic bomber. The US placed several bases throughout the UK and Europe for this purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.206.187.61 ( talk) 20:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The "ND semaphore" explanation was widely promulgated in printed books during the 1970's, so it's hardly a simple "lie" (whether or not it turns out to be true). AnonMoos ( talk) 21:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added information which resolves the Semaphore debate. It is referenced in detail on the CND page and is a first hand account from Hugh Brock (Peace News). I think it should end all debate in this regard. Aimulti ( talk) 07:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If a lower-case "n" is drawn as an inverted "v" and put between "C" and "D", they can be moved together to make the symbol. 84.71.146.64 ( talk) 20:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Should be an illustration or photo of this... AnonMoos 11:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
AnonMoos 11:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This sentence: "However, Holtom, a conscientious objector during the Second World War, subverted this use of semaphores by placing the D over the N, the "upside down logo" signifying his anti-military principles" makes no sense to me. The symbol is two dimensional; how can it have one element placed over the other? How does a D over an N make it upside down? There's no subversion of the two semaphore elements. Even though this is exactly what the referenced source says, I think it should be deleted from the article. It's confused, it's unclear, and the source doesn't explain it further. Binksternet ( talk) 14:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I feel it's worth mentioning, the peace symbol just happens to look identical to the old norse/germanic rune algiz. Would it be possible to say something about this? 71.57.11.208 ( talk) 17:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://dynamisimmortal.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/peace-and-love_pre.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dynamisimmortal.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/peace-and-love-freebie/&usg=__haEAvP9KLVT9WS2tAq5Z5QxjuaU=&h=400&w=400&sz=56&hl=en&start=10&sig2=3RcKLJjx1-QBCn1pIRyn1w&tbnid=dYHgJJjvGzEXeM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpeace%2Bsigns%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den&ei=aBrFSaqwCoLYsAOl1unsBg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.202.238 ( talk) 16:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose rename -- there's not one single peace symbol, and never has been. The name of the analogous article LGBT symbols is also plural because of this reason. AnonMoos ( talk) 23:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does this section open up with a reference to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam? Historically, this section should begin with the peace symbol of the olive tree in Greek culture, move on to the Jews, then the Christians and the Muslims. Strangely, the Greeks appear at the end of this section. Viriditas ( talk) 03:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
From what I can tell, in Christianity, it is the olive branch that is seen as a symbol of peace, not the dove. Augustine of Hippo was one of the first to popularize this interpretation. Please show otherwise. This means that the Greek symbols predate the interpretations in this article. Now, considering that Augustine was heavily influenced by the Greek philosopher Plotinus, I think this is open and shut. Viriditas ( talk) 14:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The dove requires its own section and has its own history as a symbol of peace, even though there is some obvious relationship with the olive branch section. Pablo Picasso greatly popularized its use in the mid-20th century and the image of "doves" and "hawks" came out of the Cuban Missile Crisis and was used throughout the Vietnam War. In Japan, a dove with a sword is also a symbol of peace. (Safire 2008) Viriditas ( talk) 14:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
It is an upside down cross which is to show disrespect to Christ and it is also a broken cross - not being total horizontal. Simuliar to a swastika which is also an anti christian symbol being a broken croww. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.53.218 ( talk) 03:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
i have been hearing that peace signs are something to do with the devil is that true ? if so i will not allow my children to wear peace stuff .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.21.150.39 ( talk) 00:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Past Uses doesn't cite any sources and it appears opinionated. Please correct this. 130.254.154.177 ( talk) 16:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The section on the other uses of the symbol, which is written in the voice of a person attacking the original story of how the symbol came to be, comes across as crackpot screed. Why is this in the article at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.142.227 ( talk) 19:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I have rolled back the changes made by [ [2]]. The history of this page shows that they have attempted to vandalize this page on multiple occasions. Request a block be implemented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kisama ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand why the Broken Rifle is not included here, and therefore have added it. Howard Clark ( talk) 00:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
[3] -- WhiteInKnights ( talk) 17:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I included a subsection with the more ancient history. 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 17:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The section entitled "The peace sign" beginning with the sentence, "The internationally recognized symbol for peace was originally designed for the British nuclear disarmament movement," continues on referring to a symbol, but there is no image of this symbol beside it. The image "The Peace symbol, originally the symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament" is instead up near the introduction, "A peace symbol is a representation or object that has come to symbolize peace..."
I think it would be better to move that image down, so it is beside the appropriate text which refers to it.
"Pij" ( talk) 01:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
This may be the most deceptive and most intentionally poorly written article on all of Wikipedia. Kudos to the authors if this is what they were going for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.251.63 ( talk) 06:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I have removed this "Older uses" section:
Use during WWII by 3rd Panzer Division (Germany) of a symbol with the exact same appearance seems to be a parallel development not at all related to nuclear disarmament. Their original logo combined simply took on the characteristic Crows Foot shape. They likely chose it because the symbol itself is a Teutonic death rune, or the inverse of the forked cross (a symbol of life), [1] [2] to this use, many such symbols were found on Nazi graves and called The Dead Man Rune. [3] [4]
The Symbol itself has nothing to do with evil or satanism, but over time demonization of pagan beliefs by the Catholic Church as well as its use in WWII have branded the symbol with bad connotation. Due to this, many proponents of the peace sign believe that the history of the peace sign was "manufactured" to cast bad light on the nuclear disarmament movement, when in fact it is only a massive coincidence. (source?) Political interpretation or argumented fact?
It is all highly speculative and poorly sourced - a high school assignment PDF is not a reliable source! Someone had already flagged it as having problematic sources: as such it should not stand in the article. 82.32.238.139 ( talk) 10:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to set up automatic archiving of this talk page because there's far too much info; any discussion older than 30 days will be automatically moved to archives. If anyone objects, please let me know. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
This section has no citations and some of it is dubious. For example, "Date palms are signs of peace and plenty in Judaism." This is repeated elsewhere in Wikipedia, but I am not aware of any evidence for it. On the contrary, in the Hebrew Bible and other ancient books, e.g. Maccabees, it has connotations of victory in battle. I will leave it for a bit, but if no sources can be provided I will delete it. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
This section has a photo from 2003. As this peace gesture originated in the 1960s, an earlier picture would be preferable. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I've marked as dubious the claim that Franco Belsito was asked to make millions of flags. The links are dead, Franco Belsito is not mentioned in the entry Bandiere della Pace on Italian Wikipedia and Googling his name produces nothing. Unless better sourced I will delete. Marshall46 ( talk) 19:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I have linked to a picture of the peace sign's first use on the 1958 march to Aldermaston. Although the website marks it as in the public domain, I don't think the documentation would satisfy Wikipedia, so I can't upload it. A pity, as it is a very nice picture and of some historical importance. Marshall46 ( talk) 10:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I tidied this section and removed, "The motif can also represent "hope for peace" and even a peace offering from one person to another, as in the phrase "extend an olive branch". [5] Wise Geek is a pretty random source and doesn't actually say anything about "hope for peace".
What is the origin of this peace symbol? The section gives the story of Noah's dove, but nowhere does the Bible say that it represents peace. The Greek reference given says nothing about peace either and the Roman reference says nothing about the dove. If no source can be given for this symbolism in Jewish, Christian, Greek and Roman culture, I will remove it. Picasso's drawings of the dove and olive branch for the peace movement in the 1940s did a lot to promote the symbol. That should be mentioned. Marshall46 ( talk) 14:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I have put in a 3rd/4th century Christian picture of a dove and branch from the Catacomb of Priscilla. I would have preferred to put in this unambiguous image of the same period of a dove and branch next to the word "peace" in Greek, but there are copyright problems. Marshall46 ( talk) 11:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
"Shalom" and "salaam" are the Hebrew and Arabic words for peace, they are not peace symbols. The passage about Mosh ben Ari's song, "Od yavo shalom aleinu" is particularly irrelevant. I have deleted this section . Marshall46 ( talk) 20:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Please note that I moved the info being added to the lead into the main body of the text. I changed the wording so that it is sourced and NPOV. We cannot assert as a fact that the symbol is Satanic, as this is the opinion of only some people. Note, especially, that it directly contradicts what the designer himself stated the symbol means, as well as other reliable sources. Nonetheless, we can certainly include that interpretation. In order to consolidate the info, I moved it to a new subsection along with the John Birch Society interpretations. But this is a minority interpretation, and thus does not belong in the lead. If you have concerns with this move of the info, please discuss here--do not continue to just insert the same text without discussion. Thanks~ Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
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